Sympathy For The Devil

[consiglieri]

I finished reading the transcript of Nibley's Honors class on the Book of Mormon last night, wherein he is generally careful to hew to doctrine, reading copiously from the text as he goes and peppering it with commentary.

But in the final lecture (Vol. IV, Lecture No. 112, p. 278), he appears to slip and insert some of his personal and somewhat unorthodox ideas regarding a sanguine future for Satan:

You're not called upon to fight God's battles for him, as Moroni tells us here (Moroni 7:12-13). He has not asked you to do that at all. He has asked you to do what's good. If you do righteously, that's the deadly weapon--not going out and attacking him [satan] because he's evil. Remember, he's going to have to live with us forever, too, in eternity. We've got to get on with each other eventually. He's going to be forgiven, so there's nothing you can do by going out and trying to eliminate him.

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

Sounds a lot like Origen.

[katherine the great]

Satan is going to be forgiven and live with us for eternity? Where does he factor in the doctrine of outer darkness?

[lukas_s]

Any scriptural support for Satan being forgiven after the millennium? I'm not aware of any.

Perhaps Master Mahan will take up his office? Receive the mantle of Satan, as it were?

[urroner]

An eternity is a long time to punish people. I don't think God created things to just punish some of them for an eternity. What would be the purpose of that? This is just my own opinion.

[thesometimesaint]

Satan, and the sons of perdition, will NEVER be forgiven. Not because of anything God did, but because Satan, and the sons of perdition, WILL not repent.

[Tsuzuki]

...but because Satan, and the sons of perdition, WILL not repent.

I imagine that's their decision to make, not ours.

[cjcampbell]

In short: off the reservation.

However, we do not know the end of the sons of perdition and God has specifically said He will not tell us until we become like Him and gain all knowledge.

The point that Nibley seems to be missing, however, is that if Satan did return to the celestial family he would no longer be Satan. 'Satan,' as we know him, would be destroyed and he would be something else entirely. We do not have to learn to love or get along with Satan. That is a ridiculous doctrine if ever I saw it.

[thesometimesaint]

Tsuzuki:

Yep.

[Mark Beesley]

It would be nice if Brother Nibley here to defend and/or clarify what he said in a lecture that NONE of us attended. But since he is not, feel free to pass judgment.

[Garden Girl]

In short: off the reservation.

However, we do not know the end of the sons of perdition and God has specifically said He will not tell us until we become like Him and gain all knowledge.

The point that Nibley seems to be missing, however, is that if Satan did return to the celestial family he would no longer be Satan. 'Satan,' as we know him, would be destroyed and he would be something else entirely. We do not have to learn to love or get along with Satan. That is a ridiculous doctrine if ever I saw it.

Hello cjc:

I don't think this IS a doctrine... I think these are simply Nibley's own thoughts...

GG

[thesometimesaint]

Mark Beesley:

None us were here when the Bible was written either, but I am certainly entitled to judge what was written.

Brother Nibley was a good, and honest man, pretty smart too. If he in fact wrote that about the Devil. I will disagree.

[alter idem]

I finished reading the transcript of Nibley's Honors class on the Book of Mormon last night, wherein he is generally careful to hew to doctrine, reading copiously from the text as he goes and peppering it with commentary.

But in the final lecture (Vol. IV, Lecture No. 112, p. 278), he appears to slip and insert some of his personal and somewhat unorthodox ideas regarding a sanguine future for Satan:

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

First time I read it, I understood how this could sound off the reservation. Then I read it again. I don't see anything wrong. Satan is going to live forever, just like us--not where we live, but he will still exist. I think Nibley is saying that we can't harbor animosity towards him for eternity and ever expect to become like God. We have to forgive Satan just like we have to forgive everyone who has harmed or done evil to us.

Nibley says "he's going to be forgiven". Again, I see nothing wrong with this statement. I don't read Nibley as saying that Satan would accept that forgiveness and become righteous. I assume God has already forgiven him--because he is God and he doesn't feel anything but love for his children--even the 1/3 who rejected him and their leader.

I think Nibley is saying that while Satan is our greatest foe, one day we will have to forgive even him--because he won't cease to exist, he'll still be in outer darkness, a presense and we must be like God and forgive even him--of course, I doubt we'll be able to do that for a long time. But it's no good wasting energy trying to eliminate him, as Nibley says.

So my answer is "no". I don't think he's off the reservation. I just think he thinks a lot deeper than most of us. I really love how that man thinks.

[The Nehor]

His point is good. I don't think we need to love Satan but holding an anger or hatred to him is counterproductive. In Jude we see that Michael didn't rail against Satan, just told him to leave.

We're not going to kick Satan out through anger or wiping out his followers or anything like that. It's God's problem.

[cjcampbell]

Satan, and the sons of perdition, will NEVER be forgiven. Not because of anything God did, but because Satan, and the sons of perdition, WILL not repent.

I think it goes further than that. Some decisions are simply irrevocable. People might think that is unfair, but decisions have consequences. It may be unfair to execute people for stupidity, but they die of it all the time. A person who steps off a 37th story window ledge has made an irrevocable decision. It does not matter that he was befuddled, or that he was under the influence of drugs which he had taken only once in his entire life. It does not matter at all. In a very short time he is going to hit the sidewalk. He is going to look like a bug on a windshield, no matter how much he may regret it the instant after he jumps. No matter how sorry he is, no matter how much he 'repents,' he is going to hit that sidewalk. He is not going to suddenly change his mind and fly back up to the window ledge.

Satan made such a choice. He not only jumped, he set fire to the safety net. His choice is irrevocable. It does not matter how sorry he is about it or whether he does not like the consequences.

God's choice to be God is also irrevocable. God cannot abdicate. He cannot cease to be God, or as the Book of Mormon notes, God ceasing to be God would be a paradox that would bring the entire existence of the universe into question. It is simply impossible. We all have to make the same choice -- which degree of glory we will accept, or whether we will not accept any degree of glory at all. It is our choice, but it is irrevocable. There are one-way doors through which we must pass. It does not matter whether anyone thinks that is fair. It is simply the way things are, whether anyone likes it or not.

[annewandering]

i withdraw my previous statement on the subject. lightbearer has pretty strong scriptual agruement that satan will never be forgiven.

[The Nehor]

I think it goes further than that. Some decisions are simply irrevocable. People might think that is unfair, but decisions have consequences. It may be unfair to execute people for stupidity, but they die of it all the time. A person who steps off a 37th story window ledge has made an irrevocable decision. It does not matter that he was befuddled, or that he was under the influence of drugs which he had taken only once in his entire life. It does not matter at all. In a very short time he is going to hit the sidewalk. He is going to look like a bug on a windshield, no matter how much he may regret it the instant after he jumps. No matter how sorry he is, no matter how much he 'repents,' he is going to hit that sidewalk. He is not going to suddenly change his mind and fly back up to the window ledge.

Satan made such a choice. He not only jumped, he set fire to the safety net. His choice is irrevocable. It does not matter how sorry he is about it or whether he does not like the consequences.

God's choice to be God is also irrevocable. God cannot abdicate. He cannot cease to be God, or as the Book of Mormon notes, God ceasing to be God would be a paradox that would bring the entire existence of the universe into question. It is simply impossible. We all have to make the same choice -- which degree of glory we will accept, or whether we will not accept any degree of glory at all. It is our choice, but it is irrevocable. There are one-way doors through which we must pass. It does not matter whether anyone thinks that is fair. It is simply the way things are, whether anyone likes it or not.

The Gospel According to Nehor:

Repentance is always available. There will never be a time when someone can't repent in the sense that an external law will not allow them to. To be Perdition though is to make it impossible to repent. In the same way that a righteous person finds it impossible to observe the suffering of another without feeling charity someone in Perdition lacks the impulses needed to repent. Both have taken what was once a choice and made it into an unbreakable habit. Both extremes are rare. The Righteous man can likely fall and the wicked man does most likely feel some guilt. Only a few put themselves beyond saving grace. I've met only two people in my entire life who I thought MIGHT be that depraved. I hope never to meet another.

[consiglieri]

I've met only two people in my entire life who I thought MIGHT be that depraved.

Here's hoping I'm one of them . . .

[Brade]

God's choice to be God is also irrevocable. God cannot abdicate. He cannot cease to be God, or as the Book of Mormon notes, God ceasing to be God would be a paradox that would bring the entire existence of the universe into question. It is simply impossible. We all have to make the same choice -- which degree of glory we will accept, or whether we will not accept any degree of glory at all. It is our choice, but it is irrevocable. There are one-way doors through which we must pass. It does not matter whether anyone thinks that is fair. It is simply the way things are, whether anyone likes it or not.

Perhaps this is getting slightly off topic but I don't take the above example as an instance of an irrevocable choice. I don't think the Book of Mormon is saying that the idea that God could cease to be God is a contradiction. Rather, I think it's saying that if God were to do such and such or not do thus and so then He would cease to be God and everything which is sustained by Him would cease being so sustained.

I think Nibley's taking up a strong position in asserting that satan will always exist (as himself). Some have suggested that those in outer darkness will cease to exist in the sense that they will loose their identity. Possibly becoming little fundamental bits in the "chaos" or whatever. But notice that to hold that position you've got to deny that identity is fundamental. In other words, you've got to take up some sort of physicalism or materialism about itentity and believe that identity is not eternal. I don't see many Mormons taking up that view because most Mormons like the idea of thinking they'er eternal.

Granting what I've said above I think it's not a stretch to believe something like what alter idem suggested. There's no use trying to destroy satan. You can't do it. It seems like he's saying that this idea that you're fighting a war against satan is nonsense and that you ought to just focus on being a decent human being and stop worrying about whether you'll get to kick satan in the nads.

[The Nehor]

Here's hoping I'm one of them . . .

Not even close and neither of them I knew on the intratubes. Sorry Scratch.

[Lightbearer]

I finished reading the transcript of Nibley's Honors class on the Book of Mormon last night, wherein he is generally careful to hew to doctrine, reading copiously from the text as he goes and peppering it with commentary.

But in the final lecture (Vol. IV, Lecture No. 112, p. 278), he appears to slip and insert some of his personal and somewhat unorthodox ideas regarding a sanguine future for Satan:

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I think brother Nibley is giving an opinion here, although I fail to see how he could possibly arrive at this conclusion. There is no scriptural foundation to such a thought. All I have ever seen is as follows:

(D&C 76:25-48) "And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son, And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over himâ??he was Lucifer, a son of the morning. And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning! And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christâ?? Wherefore, he maketh war with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about. And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us: Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my powerâ?? They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born; For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity; Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to comeâ?? Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame. These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angelsâ?? And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath. For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made. And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto usâ?? That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness; That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him; Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him. Wherefore, he saves all except themâ??they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their tormentâ?? And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows; Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof; Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again; Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation."

Sounds like Lucifer and the sons of Perdition's fate seems pretty final, although I note that nobody knows the extent of their punishment unless they are partakers of that punishment, so I for one would be willing to be ignorant of their fate.

[Brade]

I think brother Nibley is giving an opinion here, although I fail to see how he could possibly arrive at this conclusion. There is no scriptural foundation to such a thought. All I have ever seen is as follows:Sounds like Lucifer and the sons of Perdition's fate seems pretty final, although I note that nobody knows the extent of their punishment unless they are partakers of that punishment, so I for one would be willing to be ignorant of their fate.

It's also worth taking note of this:

Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment. Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my nameâ??s glory. Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles. I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest. For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Whereforeâ??Eternal punishment is Godâ??s punishment. Endless punishment is Godâ??s punishment.

[annewandering]

I think brother Nibley is giving an opinion here, although I fail to see how he could possibly arrive at this conclusion. There is no scriptural foundation to such a thought. All I have ever seen is as follows:Sounds like Lucifer and the sons of Perdition's fate seems pretty final, although I note that nobody knows the extent of their punishment unless they are partakers of that punishment, so I for one would be willing to be ignorant of their fate.

that does seem pretty clear on the subject. and i withdraw my previous comments. i dont understand it but it is very definate. ^^

[Obiwan]

I think Alter Idem..... hit the nail closer to the head as to what Nibley was thinking when he wrote that statement. Very much so inspired.

Be careful not to take things alway's at "obvious" seeming value. Consig.... etc. You hearing me?

[emeliza]

I have toyed with that idea as well. Satan is just as much God's spirit child as we are. God could forgive him. That doesn't mean he will necessarily get celestial glory, but at the same time, maybe he will. I will let God figure that out.