Sympathy For The Devil

[Avatar4321]

Read this thread reminds me a lot of what President Grant said once:

Some years ago a prominent man was excommunicated from the Church. He, years later, pleaded for baptism. President John Taylor referred the question of his baptism to the apostles, stating [in a letter] that if they unanimously consented to his baptism, he could be baptized, but that if there was one dissenting vote, he should not be admitted into the Church. As I remember the vote, it was five for baptism and seven against. A year or so later the question came up again and it was eight for baptism and four against. Later it came up again and it was ten for baptism and two against. Finally all of the Council of the Apostles, with the exception of your humble servant, consented that this man be baptized and I was then next to the junior member of the quorum. Later I was in the office of the president and he said:

â??Heber, I understand that eleven of the apostles have consented to the baptism of Brother So and So,â? naming the man, â??and that you alone are standing out. How will you feel when you get on the other side and you find that this man has pleaded for baptism and you find that you have perhaps kept him out from entering in with those who have repented of their sins and received some reward?â?

I said, â??President John Taylor, I can look the Lord squarely in the eye, if he asks me that question, and tell him that I did that which I thought was for the best good of the kingdom. â?¦ I can tell the Lord that [that man] had disgraced this Church enough, and that I did not propose to let any such a man come back into the Church.â?

â??Well,â? said President Taylor, â??my boy, that is all right, stay with your convictions, stay right with them.â?

I said, â??President Taylor, your letter said you wanted each one of the apostles to vote the convictions of his heart. If you desire me to surrender the convictions of my heart, I will gladly do it; I will gladly vote for this man to come back, but while I live I never expect to consent, if it is left to my judgment. That man was accused before the apostles several years ago and he stood up and lied and claimed that he was innocent, and the Lord gave to me a testimony that he lied, but I could not condemn him because of that. I got down on my knees that night and prayed God to give me the strength not to expose that man, seeing that he had lied but that we had no evidence, except only the testimony of the girl that he had seduced. And I prayed the Lord that some day additional testimony might come, and it did come, and we then excommunicated him. And when a man can lie to the apostles, and when he can be guilty while proclaiming repentance of sin, I think this Church has been disgraced enough without ever letting him come back into the Church.â?

â??Well,â? repeated President Taylor, â??my boy, donâ??t you vote as long as you live, while you hold those ideas, stay right with them.â?

I left the presidentâ??s office. I went home. â?¦ I was reading the Doctrine and Covenants through for the third or fourth time systematically, and I had my bookmark in it, but as I picked it up, instead of opening where the bookmark was, it opened to:

â??I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men; but he that forgiveth not his brother standeth condemned before the Lord.â? [see D&C 64:9â??10.]

And I closed the book and said: â??If the devil applies for baptism, and claims that he has repented, I will baptize him.â? After lunch I returned to the office of President Taylor and I said, â??President Taylor, I have had a change of heart. One hour ago I said, never while I live, did I expect to ever consent that Brother So and So should be baptized, but I have come to tell you he can be baptized, so far as I am concerned.â?

President Taylor had a habit, when he was particularly pleased, of sitting up and laughing and shaking his whole body, and he laughed and said, â??My boy, the change is very sudden, very sudden. I want to ask you a question. How did you feel when you left here an hour ago? Did you feel like you wanted to hit that man right squarely between the eyes and knock him down?â?

I said, â??That is just the way I felt.â?

He said, â??How do you feel now?â?

â??Well, to tell you the truth, President Taylor, I hope the Lord will forgive the sinner.â?

He said, â??You feel happy, donâ??t you, in comparison. You had the spirit of anger, you had the spirit of bitterness in your heart toward that man, because of his sin and because of the disgrace he had brought upon the Church. And now you have the spirit of forgiveness and you really feel happy, donâ??t you?â?

And I said, â??Yes I do; I felt mean and hateful and now I feel happy.â?

And he said: â??Do you know why I wrote that letter?â?

I said: â??No, sir.â?

â??Well I wrote it, just so you and some of the younger members of the apostles would learn the lesson that forgiveness is in advance of justice, where there is repentance, and that to have in your heart the spirit of forgiveness and to eliminate from your hearts the spirit of hatred and bitterness, brings peace and joy; that the gospel of Jesus Christ brings joy, peace and happiness to every soul that lives it and follows its teachings.â?

And so he went on. I cannot remember all of the teachings, but he continued in this way, telling me that he could never have given me that experience, that he could not give to me a testimony of the gospel; that I must receive that testimony for myself; that I must have the right spirit come into my heart and feel itâ??the spirit of forgiveness, the spirit of long-suffering and charityâ??before there would any good come to me as an individual; that by simply surrendering my will to his, and voting to baptize this man, I would never have learned the lesson that the spirit of joy and peace comes in the hour of forgiveness, and when our hearts are full of charity and long-suffering to those who have made mistakes. From that day to this I have remembered those teachings.

The Prophet of the Lord [President Taylor] said:

â??My boy, never forget that when you are in the line of your duty your heart will be full of love and forgiveness, even for the repentant sinner, and that when you get out of that straight line of duty and have the determination that what you think is justice and what you think is equity and right should prevail, you ofttimes are anything but happy. You can know the difference between the Spirit of the Lord and the spirit of the adversary, when you find that you are happy and contented, that you love your fellows, that you are anxious for their welfare; and you can tell that you do not have that Spirit when you are full of animosity and feel that you would like to knock somebody down.â? Forgiving others

[annewandering]

I will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men, D&C 64: 10.

we dont have the knowledge or understanding to decide who should be forgiven. God does so He will forgive who he will forgive. He says He wont forgive satan so that is that.

[Lightbearer]

It's also worth taking note of this:

The passage you quote is not referring to the sons of perdition. It speaking of those who suffer in hell (spirit prison) for their own sins. This does not prove that Satan and his hosts will be redeemed, in fact Section 76 indicates quite the opposite.

[e=mc2]

Nibley was onto one of the *greatest* of mystical secrets.

[consiglieri]

Nibley was onto one of the *greatest* of mystical secrets.

Hey, man! You can't just drop that and walk away!

Get back here!

What do you mean?!!!

[Notquitewetyet]

His point is good. I don't think we need to love Satan but holding an anger or hatred to him is counterproductive. In Jude we see that Michael didn't rail against Satan, just told him to leave.

We're not going to kick Satan out through anger or wiping out his followers or anything like that. It's God's problem.

Interesting to note Zech. 3:2 "And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?" The Lord said the same thing Michael did. Is this a hint?

[alter idem]

Sometimes I'm amazed at how we can come up with a + b = g

Yes, God says there is "no forgiveness" for some, and he tells us he will forgive whom he will forgive, but does this bring us to the conclusion that God demands a standard for us that he refuses to meet himself?

We need to read scripture in context so that we keep the meaning correct. There is "no forgiveness" does not mean God withholds his forgiveness the way you and I might withhold forgiveness from others who have offended us. His kind of forgiveness carries real power--the power to blot out sin; and God has said that he will only forgive the sins of those who are repentant. That's what he means by "no forgiveness"--they receive not his forgiveness, even though he grants it freely to all--God is Love--that MEANS something more than a mere platitude! However, only those who repent enjoy the BENEFIT or the EFFECTS of his forgiveness. He never turns any of his children away who would repent and come to him. So, what of Satan and his followers?--If in the eternities it were ever possible, I believe God would allow even them to enjoy the benefits of his forgiveness--at least to relieve their eternal torment. I realize they have forfeited much of what could be theirs by their choices, but I don't believe God is called "merciful" for nothing. I guess we wait and see how this all plays out, eons from now. Maybe this was kind of what Nibley was getting at. If so, I understand his thinking.

But I believe the scriptures are clear that it is always us who make the choice to separate ourselves from God and he is always there ready to receive us--IF we would repent.

We can see this when he goes on to explain, "of you it is required to forgive all men". What we see from this is that he's telling us that we have to forgive others whether or not they repent. God, on the other hand, has decreed that he can only forgive ( by this he means grant them the benefits of his forgiveness to) those who repent.

[Analytics]

It seems to me that God ought to forgive Lucifer, because Lucifer served a vital role in Godâ??s the plan. Iâ??m serious. If Lucifer really wanted to screw things up, all heâ??d have to do is go along with it and make sure everybody else did to. Then God's plan wouldnâ??t work!

Godâ??s plan of separation requires there to be opposition in all things. We should be extremely grateful for Lucifer for fulfilling the roll of the opposition. The Saints who benefit the most from Godâ??s plan should be the most thankful for Lucifer for making it all possible.

[alter idem]

It seems to me that God ought to forgive Lucifer, because Lucifer served a vital role in Godâ??s the plan. Iâ??m serious. If Lucifer really wanted to screw things up, all heâ??d have to do is go along with it and make sure everybody else did to. Then God's plan wouldnâ??t work!

Godâ??s plan of separation requires there to be opposition in all things. We should be extremely grateful for Lucifer for fulfilling the roll of the opposition. The Saints who benefit the most from Godâ??s plan should be the most thankful for Lucifer for making it all possible.

Yea, I've heard this before and yet, I have to wonder if opposition already exists in the vast cosmos--without any of God's children playing a role.

There is opposition in all things--it is the nature of the cosmos--it's not something God created but something he uses to bring about his purposes. Because of this, I'm not sure a "human" element is necessary to carry out God's plan. Just speculating, I'll have to think about it some more--but it is something to think about.

[emeliza]

It seems to me that God ought to forgive Lucifer, because Lucifer served a vital role in Godâ??s the plan. Iâ??m serious. If Lucifer really wanted to screw things up, all heâ??d have to do is go along with it and make sure everybody else did to. Then God's plan wouldnâ??t work!

Godâ??s plan of separation requires there to be opposition in all things. We should be extremely grateful for Lucifer for fulfilling the roll of the opposition. The Saints who benefit the most from Godâ??s plan should be the most thankful for Lucifer for making it all possible.

God's plan is that He will forgive those who repent and ask forgiveness. Personally I think if Lucifer did this, God would forgive him. I also think God could have made His plan work even if Lucifer didn't do what he did.

[Black Moclips]

Nibley's idea sort of sounds like Brigham Young's thoughts about those in perdition and how they will be cast back down to their native elements and "re-forged". I know in some new-age thought, Satan, or those that represent darkness, follow a path they believe puts them outside karma and the effects of their actions. It does seem that way, but ultimately its only a delay and not escape, and they eventually are "cast down" and remade to start their evolution over again. Similar ideas. I guess the question is if something can truly stay evil without end, or if there is always some way back. Personally, I like the idea that there is always a way back.