Rod Meldrum's Firesides & DVD (N.A. BoM Setting)

[TAK]

Calmoriah

I'm surprised since you quoted it that you seemed to have missed the words I bolded which are fundamental to Scott's point and which answers your question quite sufficiently so you don't need to keep asking it as if it hasn't been addressed

Scott is alluding to Meldrum knowing more than the prophets. All the prophets have indicated that the Cumorah is in New York. Not Mesoamerica. â?? Which is what you donâ??t want to admit too are are attempting to deflect.

Now if Scott did not say â??But, it seems he knows better than all of the prophets who have gone before.â? - You might have a weak argument. But Meldrum agrees with â??all the prophets who have gone beforeâ?. At least more so than Sorenson.

I understand the Church no longer teaches this.. but it was published in Church magazines and found in Conference talks in the past.

BTW, Can you point me to a list of official teachings?

[juliann]

BTW Meldrum's LGT seems to encompass nearly all of the US - Sorenson's model, (according to Meldrum,) limits the events of the Book of Mormon to a 360- by 85-miles ..

When Sorenson ends his articles "in the name of Jesus Christ", tells his readers to pray about his theory and tells everyone who doesn't that they don't follow Joseph Smith get back to us. Meanwhile, nobody cares who proposes what as long as they are representing their sources accurately....which means Rodney doesn't get to quote JS when he agrees with him and ignore JS when he doesn't agree with him without encountering some opposition.

[TAK]

When Sorenson ends his articles "in the name of Jesus Christ", tells his readers to pray about his theory and tells everyone who doesn't that they don't follow Joseph Smith get back to us. Meanwhile, nobody cares who proposes what as long as they are representing their sources accurately....which means Rodney doesn't get to quote JS when he agrees with him and ignore JS when he doesn't agree with him without encountering some opposition.

So what facet of Rodneyâ??s teaching do not agree with what Joseph Smith taught?

[Doctor Steuss]

So what facet of Rodneyâ??s teaching do not agree with what Joseph Smith taught?

Unless Rodney believes some events of the BoM transpired in Mesoamerica, then he doesnâ??t agree with what Joseph Smith taught.

(IMO, Joseph advocated a hemispheric model/theory which encompassed North and South America [and everything in between]. His thoughts on the subject seemed to be quite maliable though as it was only later that South/Middle America entered onto his radar.)

[LifeOnaPlate]

When Sorenson ends his articles "in the name of Jesus Christ", tells his readers to pray about his theory and tells everyone who doesn't that they don't follow Joseph Smith get back to us. Meanwhile, nobody cares who proposes what as long as they are representing their sources accurately....which means Rodney doesn't get to quote JS when he agrees with him and ignore JS when he doesn't agree with him without encountering some opposition.

I think you meant meldrum here

[juliann]

I think you meant meldrum here

? I meant exactly what I said. Those who Rodney criticizes do not appeal to prayer or church status to prove their theories..

[Scott Lloyd]

I think you meant meldrum here

No. Juliann is saying that when Sorenson starts doing the things that Meldrum does, then TAK might have a basis for comparison.

[TAK]

Unless Rodney believes some events of the BoM transpired in Mesoamerica, then he doesnâ??t agree with what Joseph Smith taught.

(IMO, Joseph advocated a hemispheric model/theory which encompassed North and South America [and everything in between]. His thoughts on the subject seemed to be quite maliable though as it was only later that South/Middle America entered onto his radar.)

It sounds like Rodney agrees more with Jos. Smith than Sorsenson does..

[TAK]

No. Juliann is saying that when Sorenson starts doing the things that Meldrum does, then TAK might have a basis for comparison.

I just want someone to show me how Meldrum "knows better than all of the prophets who have gone before" .. as Scott has implied .. Meldrum's view mirror the prophets.. Has President Monson endorsed Mesoamerican LGT?

[Scott Lloyd]

I just want someone to show me how Meldrum "knows better than all of the prophets who have gone before" .. as Scott has implied .. Meldrum's view mirror the prophets.. Has President Monson endorsed Mesoamerican LGT?

All that can be reasonably inferred is that President Monson stands by the official position of the Church, which is no position on specific Book of Mormon geography. And which is why Meldrum or anyone else would be out of line in trying to trumpet non-revelation-based statements by Joseph Smith as the final word on the subject.

[Greg Smith]

So what facet of Rodney's teaching do not agree with what Joseph Smith taught?

See here:

http://www.fairlds.org/DNA_Evidence_for_Bo...y/DEBMG03S.html

Note especially his treatment of the Benhisel letter (clever, if not accurate), his mistakes about two letters in the Times and seasons, and the complete neglect to mention two OTHER letters in the T&S signed by Joseph Smith as editor. Among other things.

By all means, let's hear from Joseph. But let's hear EVERYTHING Joseph said and wrote and did. Not just that which supports our pet theories.

I told Meldrum about the T&S article he ignores on 1 July 2008. Still not a peep about it.

[awyatt]

I just want someone to show me how Meldrum "knows better than all of the prophets who have gone before" .. as Scott has implied .. Meldrum's view mirror the prophets.. Has President Monson endorsed Mesoamerican LGT?

Monson doesn't have to. The fact is, there is no official geography, but Meldrum tries to say that there is an official geography established by Joseph Smith. The problem, of course, is that if Joseph Smith really did create an official, revealed geography, then all the prophets since Joseph--who have insisted there is no official, revealed geography--are at odds with Joseph.

Meldrum can only establish his official, revealed geography that (in his words) lets him "proclaim Joseph anew" by cherry-picking which of Joseph's statements he presents; he ignores the totality of the evidence in favor of the theory he insists must be true.

Meldrum's views do not mirror the prophets. If they did, Meldrum wouldn't be proclaiming that Joseph spoke definitively and established a geography for the Book of Mormon.

If Meldrum wants to believe that the geography happened in North America, more power to him; I've got no qualm with that. But Meldrum is misusing his sources and, based upon his cherry-picked evidence, insisting upon a conclusion that is wrong. By extension, anyone who disagrees with his conclusion of what Joseph said is not only wrong but in apostasy.

Meldrum is wrong. Period.

-Allen

[LifeOnaPlate]

No. Juliann is saying that when Sorenson starts doing the things that Meldrum does, then TAK might have a basis for comparison.

Ah, that's what I get for not reading the previous comment by TAK. (thanks for the clarification, scott!)

It sounds like Rodney agrees more with Jos. Smith than Sorsenson does..

Sounds like you haven't read the FAIR review.

[Scott Gordon]

I just want someone to show me how Meldrum "knows better than all of the prophets who have gone before" .. as Scott has implied .. Meldrum's view mirror the prophets.. Has President Monson endorsed Mesoamerican LGT?

TAK, you missed my point. The point is that there is NO geography. Meldrum asserts that those who don't believe his pet geography theory are not following the revealed words of Joseph Smith. I think there are several theories floating out there. Each one must be engaged on its merits. None of them should be engaged on the premise that it is endorsed by God unless the current prophet comes out and makes that statement.

[livy111us]

Excellent review! Thanks for posting

[livy111us]

It looks like he is still doing firesides in Church buildings. He's got on up in Idaho tomorrow.

[cdowis]

The events in the BOM text occurred in Mesoamerica.

HOWEVER, as I have pointed out many times, the Nephites and Lamanites also lived in the "land northward" for which we have no records. And the Lamanites probably wandered down to South America as well.

Thus, any comments by JS and other evidence regarding BOM geography must take this into account, e.g. Zelph. Also, there is indeed a hill named Cumorah in NY. But that does not make it the location of the last battle of extinction.

People continue to get confused on this point, and perhaps someone can make money on this confusion -- DVD, lectures, etc.

[livy111us]

I agree 100%. There is even archaeological evidence of Mesoamericans migrating northward to that area.

[poulsenll]

The events in the BOM text occurred in Mesoamerica.

HOWEVER, as I have pointed out many times, the Nephites and Lamanites also lived in the "land northward" for which we have no records. And the Lamanites probably wandered down to South America as well.

Thus, any comments by JS and other evidence regarding BOM geography must take this into account, e.g. Zelph.

People continue to get confused on this point.

You are absolutely correct. The BofM does not include the history and/or geography of all the people mentioned in that book. In Helaman we are specifically told by Mormon that the history of those who went north is not included.

If one reads Brants talk at the last FAIR Conference, you will understand that Mormon had a specific goal in mind when selecting what to include and what was not of importance to this goal. Satisfying our curiosity about geography was not part of this goal. As pointed out by Brant, Mormon's goal was as stated on the front page of the BofM, to convince the world that Jesus was the Messiah and Savior of the world. The history of all the side groups mentioned in the text did not contribute sigificantly to this goal, therefore was given little attention by Mormon. He did not write a history, he picked and chose from the many books of history shown him by the Prophet Ammaron, those incidents an happenings that led up to the appearance of Jesus at Bountiful and Christ's declaration that His mission was complete and salvation and Eternal life were now available to all.

Brant's talk

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/20...ta-Message.html

Larry P

[Greg Smith]

I agree 100%. There is even archaeological evidence of Mesoamericans migrating northward to that area.

As you will learn from Rod on the FAIR blog if a piece of evidence (like a statement in a scientific paper) doesn't match Rod's idea of how scripture should be read, he feels free to leave it out. (It's not yet clear if his reading is the only possible one.)

So, such archaeological evidence simply doesn't exist. Please try again.

[Calm]

Interesting development over on the FAIR blog. Ed Goble has shown up claiming plagiarism on the part of Rod Meldrum:

Ed Goble Says:

September 5th, 2008 at 8:22 pm

Mr. Meldrum,

Why is it that you think that the reason people take issue with your stuff is because of Geography? ESPECIALLY Fair? Let me give you the perfect example. It appears that your DVDs are clearly based on my geography theory from 2002 that appeared in my book This Land: Zarahemla and the Nephite Nation that I co-authored with Wayne May. I have never heard from you, nor have I heard one peep from anybody about giving credit where credit is due for “your” geography, Mr. Meldrum.

Mr. May was responsible for all of the questionable artifacts in that volume, but the Geography is MINE. While it is true that elements of that geography are from other sources, at least May and I gave credit to where credit was due.

So Mr. Meldrum, I have to question your ethics for this very reason. The idea of a confluence of rivers making up the head of the Sidon is lifted from MY book, Mr. Meldrum. That was MY idea.

Now, just because I RETRACTED that geography because it was WRONG, doesn’t change the fact that it is mine.

I'll will be interested in Meldrum's response.

http://www.fairblog.org/2008/09/03/examini...e-secular-side/

I did a search by google on the site "bookofmormonevidence.org" and the only time Goble's name comes up is in the bookstore selling the book he coauthored with Wayne May that he refers to here. So it appears that Meldrum is aware of the book and likely the ideas in it since he is also familiar with Wayne May (May is listed as speaking at the Symposium that occurred in May).

[cinepro]

I wonder if he states in these firesides that his opinion is not a popular one with more accomplished scholars IE Brant Gardner and Sorenson

Do you also wonder if Brant Gardner and Sorenson footnote their publications with a note regarding the popularity of their theories among more accomplished scholars (i.e. every non-LDS meso-american researcher)?

Robert Meldrum is to LDS apologists as LDS apologists are to the larger archaeological community.

Me thinks the apologists are bothered by Meldrum not because he is so different from them, but because deep down inside they know their theories are based on the same foundation of faith, and it's embarrassing to have him waving it around in public without the trenchcoat of scholarly mumbo-jumbo covering up that embarrasing fact.

[Brant Gardner]

Me thinks the apologists are bothered by Meldrum not because he is so different from them, but because deep down inside they know their theories are based on the same foundation of faith, and it's embarrassing to have him waving it around in public without the trenchcoat of scholarly mumbo-jumbo covering up that embarrasing fact.

Bull

[cdowis]

Me thinks the apologists are bothered by Meldrum not because he is so different from them, but because deep down inside they know their theories are based on the same foundation of faith, and it's embarrassing to have him waving it around in public without the trenchcoat of scholarly mumbo-jumbo covering up that embarrasing fact.

I will speak for myself, thankyouverymuch.

My concern is his motives, quite frankly. He reminds me of the snake oil salesman -- a questionable product designed to make money rather than to provide medicinal benefits. He scours the countryside drumming up customers.

You are conflating the snake oil salesman to a medical practioner, pretending there is no difference between the two.

How very typical of you, cinepro.

[Calm]

Me thinks the apologists are bothered by Meldrum not because he is so different from them, but because deep down inside they know their theories are based on the same foundation of faith, and it's embarrassing to have him waving it around in public without the trenchcoat of scholarly mumbo-jumbo covering up that embarrasing fact.

For those of us who have been around enough to have seen significant fallout from previous 'faith promoting' presentations (Dead Sea Scrolls, West's stuff, etc.), I don't think there is any need to look deeper.

Also many of us have 'worked' primarily among our fellow Saints over the years and there is no sense of embarrassment discussing our foundation of faith with each other.