Rod Meldrum's Firesides & DVD (N.A. BoM Setting)

[Jan]

Has anyone been to one of Rod Meldrum's firesides or know someone who has?

Has anyone seen his DVD or know someone who has?

If so, what was the impression of his theories of the setting of Book of Mormon events in the Mississippi and Ohio River valleys? More specifically, how he makes a case for his views (his methods)?

What do you think of FAIR's response to this methods?

http://www.fairlds.org/DNA_Evidence_for_Bo...rmon_Geography/

Add on: I think this is the first time FAIR has published a critique of another LDS, usually it's anti-Mormon claims by non/ex LDS.

[Jan]

Here is a blog post about FAIR's response by Allen Wyatt:

http://www.fairblog.org/2008/09/03/examini...e-secular-side/

[Anijen]

Has anyone been to one of Rod Meldrum's firesides or know someone who has?

Has anyone seen his DVD or know someone who has?

If so, what was the impression of this theories of the setting of Book of Mormon events in the Mississippi and Ohio River valleys? More specifically, how he makes a case for his views?

What do you think of FAIR's response to this methods?

http://www.fairlds.org/DNA_Evidence_for_Bo...rmon_Geography/

Add on: I think this is the first time FAIR has published a critique of another LDS, usually it's anti-Mormon claims by non/ex LDS.

Jan

Is he actually having firesides in the chapels? I wonder if he states in these firesides that his opinion is not a popular one with more accomplished scholars IE Brant Gardner and Sorenson

[Jan]

Jan

Is he actually having firesides in the chapels? I wonder if he states in these firesides that his opinion is not a popular one with more accomplished scholars IE Brant Gardner and Sorenson

For sure he has had these firesides in church buildings in the past.

I don't think he's able to do that now (but can't give you a source for it).

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]

If so, what was the impression of his theories of the setting of Book of Mormon events in the Mississippi and Ohio River valleys?

[...]

Dissenting opinions can help refine things and move us along in that ever-so-elusive quest for knowledge. That being said, they can also be detrimental. Depends on which side of the fence one is on, I suppose.

[Brant Gardner]

I wonder if he states in these firesides that his opinion is not a popular one with more accomplished scholars IE Brant Gardner and Sorenson

I suspect that should he attempt such a thing, he would be met with the question, "Who?" I haven't found a large number of saints who know who Sorenson is, and he has been at this for almost 40 years with a wider scholarly community and had a book available for over 20. You can only guess how many fewer have heard of that Gardner fellow.

Meldrum has the unique benefit of saying what people want to hear.

[Jan]

Dissenting opinions can help refine things and move us along in that ever-so-elusive quest for knowledge. That being said, they can also be detrimental. Depends on which side of the fence one is on, I suppose.

Hi Stu -

I don't think anyone is trying to say that one can hold one view the geography. The issues are (1) the facts he uses are questionable and/or wrong and (2) the methods he uses to promote his theories.

#2 is why I was curious if anyone here had seen one of his firesides or knows someone that did and what their impressions of it are ---- particularly before and *after* reading the FAIR response.

Jan

[Scott Lloyd]

Hi Stu -

I don't think anyone is trying to say that one can hold one view the geography. The issues are (1) the facts he uses are questionable and/or wrong and (2) the methods he uses to promote his theories.

#2 is why I was curious if anyone here had seen one of his firesides or knows someone that did and what their impressions of it are ---- particularly before and *after* reading the FAIR response.

Jan

Is he still using official Church venues (meetinghouses, sacrament meetings, firesides) to peddle his lectures and DVDs? That strikes me as improper.

[Jan]

Is he still using official Church venues (meetinghouses, sacrament meetings, firesides) to peddle his lectures and DVDs? That strikes me as improper.

I don't think he is anymore but I can't say for sure. He did in the past but it may have been stopped.

[Calm]

I saw a publicized meeting at a local school awhile back so it looks like he had other options on where to gather, IIRC. According to his website which lists all of the meetings as far as I can see, there were none being held at churches. He seemed to feel it was important though to let everyone know that one of the local MPs let the missionaries attend.

[Scott Gordon]

I understand that he has been asked not to use Church venues anymore so he has stopped. He was using church sites before. He is even wanting to create a foundation for a museum in Nauvoo.

It isn't a problem of having another theory. Some of my best friends have different theories. :-)

The issue is the claim that he is proclaiming anew the revelations of Joseph Smith. It is the denouncing of MesoAmerican believers as not being true followers of Joseph Smith. Frankly, that offends me. I have been accused by him of not protecting Joseph Smith's revelatory words.

I had more than one discussion with him as to why believing in the MesoAmerican Theory did NOT MEAN that you were denying the fruits of the Church. I think he finally conceded that point after our second or third discussion--maybe, but it is still in his DVD.

He insists he teaches Joseph Smith's revealed geography even though it has been brought up to him that the Church does not, and has never had an official geography. But, it seems he knows better than all of the prophets who have gone before.

From what I read, he is the new prophet. Sorenson, Gardner and FAIR are all leading the Church astray. He is going to save the Church from us.

[cksalmon]

Meldrum has the unique benefit of saying what people want to hear.

I agree. I'd suggest that what his supporters want to hear is a presentation that posits specified locales for the BOM narratives. Not that you've suggested otherwise, but I'd assume that neither Meldrum nor his supporters are disingenuous. They just want some definite geographical rack upon which to hang their BOM hats.

But, what on earth in the FIRM Foundation (i.e., "The Foundation for Indigenous Research and Mormonism")? The foundation apparently co-sponsored one of his appearances in May, but it has no web presence I've been able to track down.

cks

[juliann]

This whole thing is really unfortunate. If he had just not assigned everyone who didn't believe him to the apostate pile...including prophets by extension.... nobody would give a flying leap about his theories. The almost born again sounding testimonials on his website makes it very clear where he is going with this.

[Scott Gordon]

In case someone is unclear about this, I have posted below the reason's FAIR responded to this:

This publication by FAIR addresses the oral presentations by Rod Meldrum, and the DVDs he produces and sells, that ostensibly deal with the geography of the Book of Mormon and the issues that have recently emerged concerning DNA and its implications for the Book of Mormon. Were Rod Meldrum's work merely another of many theories about where the events in the Book of Mormon happened in the new world and the meaning of DNA studies, FAIR would not have published these reviews. It is doing so in response to questions addressed to FAIR by concerned or confused Church members and because the core issues raised by Rod Meldrum's propositions are fundamental to the faith of the Latter-day Saints and the integrity of the leadership of the Church. Accordingly, FAIR is addressing the needs of the public and here, at the outset, wishes to ensure that readers are clear about what the real matters in issue are.

We repeat what is noted above: the ostensible subjects of Rod Meldrum's oral presentations are geography and DNA, in support of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. We repeat, for emphasis, that were Rod Meldrum's work simply the theories of another man on geography and DNA, FAIR would not have become involved. FAIR has taken the carefully considered decision to prepare and publish this paper because there is convincing evidence demonstrating that his work puts the basis of the faith of not a few Latter-day Saints at risk and because its core premise calls the allegiance to Joseph Smith's teachings by today's Church leaders in question. If the leaders of our Church can be questioned on this point, it is a small step to put their allegiance to any of the Prophet's revealed teachings in question, and from small seeds large weeds do grow.

Neither of the two fundamental issues which FAIR has with Rod Meldrum's work (misplaced faith and the questionable loyalty of today's prophets, seers, and revelators) is obvious to allâ??indeed, at first viewing it wasn't initially obvious to some at FAIR. The work is persuasive, appears to be sincere, is accompanied by what looks like solid evidence with respect to geography and the purported views of the Prophetâ??and it is therein that the real danger lies. Therefore, in these reviews we first ask whether what Rod Meldrum says in his presentations and DVDs is something upon which a Latter-day Saint should base his faith and will then demonstrate that it is not. Second, we address whether the core premise of Rod Meldrum's presentations is consistent with the proposition that the revelations of Joseph Smith are being proclaimed to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by the prophets, seers, and revelators requiring, as Rodney Meldrum claims, that he must proclaim aspects of the Prophet's revelations anew, and we show that his core claim is not correct.

We again emphasize, that were the issues raised only matters of geography or genetics, FAIR's members would not have devoted many hundreds of hours of volunteer, unpaid work, and the expenditure by some of their own money, to the preparation of these reviews. However, although geography and DNA appear at first glance to be the subjects in question, they are not the real issues, and the real issues strike at fundamentals of the faith of the Saints, So, as onerous and unpleasant a task as it has been, and recognizing that there may be some who won't be familiar with our purpose, and who do not carefully study our papers, or who act out of partisan loyalty, who may criticize us, we are nonetheless obliged to publish. There have already been mutterings about lawsuits, but we are well advised on the law and are not troubled by such threats. We know the law, and we honor and abide by it. We are also fully aware that Rod Meldrum may attack us for what we are doing; however, FAIR members are willing to weather the criticisms of the few on behalf of the many, and have willingly made these sacrifices as part of FAIR's mission to defend the true faith of the Latter-day Saints.

It will be evident that FAIR regrets the necessity of having to have engaged Rod Meldrum's theories. He is, after all, a fellow Latter-day Saint. But, as noted, FAIR has received numerous requests from Church members for information on his theories and there is a clear public need for us to respond given the cry for it, according to our mandate to provide well-documented answers to criticisms of LDS (Mormon) doctrine, belief and practice. That mission is invoked because the core of Rod Meldrum's presentation is not Book of Mormon geography or DNA. Instead, it is a challenge to core issues of LDS doctrine, belief and practice, which have been entrusted by the Lord to the sole province of the leaders of the Church. The core claim Rod Meldrum makes is that he must "proclaim anew" some revelations of Joseph Smith. From that claim the obvious and unmistakable conclusion is that he is telling his audience, in effect, that the Church and its leaders have not been, and are not now, proclaiming the Prophet fully or with faithâ??or, of course, Rod Meldrum would not be proclaiming him "anew." The seriousness of this can hardly be overstated.

http://www.fairlds.org/DNA_Evidence_for_Bo...rmon_Geography/

[Calm]

I will be interested in how RM responds to this by Robert White as Meldrum has appeared to go out of his way to present it as if FAIR has sideswiped him imo, when it is he who has actually done so by now posting material to his site that he agreed in contract that he would send to FAIR during the grace period FAIR agreed to at his request while FAIR has been totally up front with him about their actual intentions:

On this blog you are referring people to your site on which you have posted the very things that you were contractually obligated to provide to FAIR well before this. Obviously, you didn’t write the material you have posted since FAIR published, and since the final date on which your communication to FAIR was due. It is therefore clear that you had prepared what, in your view, was a list of things about which FAIR was in error, and notwithstanding your contractual obligations, which are not only legal but, for a latter-day saint, ethical, you chose to break your word, and do it egregiously.

As I have written, there are series of emails between you and FAIR officers–I am not referring to the email that has passed between you and me–documenting all of this, including your clearly expressed gratitude to FAIR for allowing you to do this, and asking for and obtaining from FAIR an extension of time because of the commitments to work and family you described to us. If you differ with me about the contract that you made and your obligations under it, I am sure that publication of the email exchanges will more than adequately address your disagreements.

So, legally, ethically and honorably, you really should, as the first item on your site, acknowledge that you agreed to send what follows to FAIR prior to September 2nd, that you decided not to live up to your obligations and to proceed instead as you have. Readers will then be fully informed about the context of your complaints and also be able to judge your credibility in making them.

To any of you who are reading this and have previously not known of this contract, I am sure that if you send an email to Ask The Apologist from the FAIR website, FAIR may decide to send you, or broadly publish, the contract in full.

8:05 blog by Robert White: http://www.fairblog.org/2008/09/03/examini...e-secular-side/

[TAK]

Scott:

He insists he teaches Joseph Smith's revealed geography even though it has been brought up to him that the Church does not, and has never had an official geography. But, it seems he knows better than all of the prophets who have gone before.

"knows better than all the prophets"?

Which prophets have proclaimed Mesoamerica as the site of the Hill Cumorah in the BofM ?

I only know of prophets that claim New York..

[Calm]

Scott:

"knows better than all the prophets"?

Which prophets have proclaimed Mesoamerica as the site of the Hill Cumorah in the BofM ?

I only know of prophets that claim New York..

Meldrum is not just proposing a New York site for the Hill Cumorah, he's claiming all BoM activity to have occurred in the area he claims for his version of a LGT.

[Lamanite]

Was this the guy I saw Louis Midgley arguing with at the FAIR conference?

If so that was hilarious.

Lamanite

[TAK]

Meldrum is not just proposing a New York site for the Hill Cumorah, he's claiming all BoM activity to have occurred in the area he claims for his version of a LGT.

So which prophets have proclaimed Mesoamerica as the site of the Hill Cumorah in the BofM that Scott seems to be alluding to?

[Calm]

Was this the guy I saw Louis Midgley arguing with at the FAIR conference?

Yes.

So which prophets have proclaimed Mesoamerica as the site of the Hill Cumorah in the BofM that Scott seems to be alluding to?

I think you have missed the point.

[TAK]

Yes.I think you have missed the point.

Really? Your point or Scotts?

Scott said

"He insists he teaches Joseph Smith's revealed geography even though it has been brought up to him that the Church does not, and has never had an official geography. But, it seems he knows better than all of the prophets who have gone before. "

As I said, I only know of prophets that have indicated the only Hill Cumorah in New York .. None in Mesoamerica. So which prophets claim the BofM Cumorah is in Mesoamerica?

BTW Meldrum's LGT seems to encompass nearly all of the US - Sorenson's model, (according to Meldrum,) limits the events of the Book of Mormon to a 360- by 85-miles ..

[Scott Lloyd]

Was this the guy I saw Louis Midgley arguing with at the FAIR conference?

If so that was hilarious.

Lamanite

Who had the upper hand? (I'm guessing Midgley.)

[Calm]

Really? Your point or Scotts? Scott said "He insists he teaches Joseph Smith's revealed geography even though it has been brought up to him that the Church does not, and has never had an official geography. But, it seems he knows better than all of the prophets who have gone before. "As I said, I only know of prophets that have indicated the only Hill Cumorah in New York .. None in Mesoamerica. So which prophets claim the BofM Cumorah is in Mesoamerica?

I'm surprised since you quoted it that you seemed to have missed the words I bolded which are fundamental to Scott's point and which answers your question quite sufficiently so you don't need to keep asking it as if it hasn't been addressed.

Who had the upper hand? (I'm guessing Midgley.)

In size Meldrum (he's dang tall) and when I saw him speak to people he seems to lean over them, but Midgley never let a little thing like that intimidate him, lol.

[Scott Lloyd]

I'm surprised since you quoted it that you seemed to have missed the words I bolded which are fundamental to Scott's point and which answers your question quite sufficiently so you don't need to keep asking it as if it hasn't been addressed.In size Meldrum (he's dang tall), but Midgley never let a little thing like that intimidate him, lol.

That thought occurred to me as well. What word in "no official geography" doesn't TAK understand?

[Scott Lloyd]

In size Meldrum (he's dang tall) and when I saw him speak to people he seems to lean over them, but Midgley never let a little thing like that intimidate him, lol.

If he has enough fortitude to walk into the Tanners' bookstore and take on Sandra on her home turf, I'm guessing he'll face most any earthly entitity.