Masonic Distress Call

[Alf O'Mega]

This is another one of those issues where claims about what Joseph was or was not thinking tell us much more about the person making the claim than they tell us about what Joseph was or was not thinking.

What does this issue tell you about me? What does it tell you about John Taylor? What does it tell you about Richard Bushman?

[Bernard Gui]

Since we're all speculating about what happened at the

last moment of Joseph's life, here is my contribution:

He was given a "Stephen" experience and saw Jesus

standing on the right hand of the Father, and exclaimed,

"Oh Lord, My God."

Bernard

[Mudcat]

Speaking of swords, I was watching Modern Marvels last night on the History Channel and they were doing a story on sharp things, briefly mentioning that the katana is the sharpest type of metal sword ever made.

It can cut through a man with one blow and never needs to be sharpened.

It's made from a mixture of steel and clay.

Totally off thread, but I am a knifemaker.

Katanas are neat.

They are actually made of steel (no clay) and the metal is folded hundreds of time to give it great strength. The clay comes in, when the steel is hardened by dousing in water or oil from 14-1500 F, the quicker it cools, the harder the steel. Hard steel can hold a better edge, but is brittle. Most of the spine of the blade is covered in clay..all accept the very edge. When it is doused, the part that is covered in clay, cools slower than the edge of the blade. The clay is then broken away and the steel tempered, polished and sharpened.

The result is an edge that will hold razor sharpness, but the blade itself is flexible enough for combat. There is a line along the edge of the blade where the more quickly cooled metal is, they call it a hammon.

Samurai used to chop peasants down with new blades to test their strength. Brutal.

Kasanegasane,

Mudcatsan

[selek]

Totally off thread, but I am a knifemaker.

Katanas are neat.

They are actually made of steel (no clay) and the metal is folded hundreds of time to give it great strength. The clay comes in, when the steel is hardened by dousing in water or oil from 14-1500 F, the quicker it cools, the harder the steel. Hard steel can hold a better edge, but is brittle. Most of the spine of the blade is covered in clay..all accept the very edge. When it is doused, the part that is covered in clay, cools slower than the edge of the blade. The clay is then broken away and the steel tempered, polished and sharpened.

The result is an edge that will hold razor sharpness, but the blade itself is flexible enough for combat. There is a line along the edge of the blade where the more quickly cooled metal is, they call it a hammon.

Samurai used to chop peasants down with new blades to test their strength. Brutal.

Kasanegasane,

Mudcatsan

If it's the same show I saw, it's actually two grades of steel- a (comparatively) softer inner core near the top of the blade and the extremely hard outer sheath which forms the cutting edge. The inner core allows the blade to flex and the outer to hold the edge. I beleive the differences in density also help produce the distinctive arch of the blade, though I could be mistaken.

If I remember what I saw correctly, the clay is use to help insulate parts of the blade, aiding in cooling parts of the blade faster than others, and allowing for a somewhat more artistic hammon.

The sword-maker interviewed took very special care to use several grades and coats of clay (it was applied essentially like paint) to produce the exact pattern he wanted.

And it wasn't necessarily peasants (though any peon could do in a pinch) as much as convicted criminals.

[California]

(Paul Ray @ Mar 13 2008, 04:21 PM)

In other words, are you personally opposed that Masonic rituals are a corrupt, apostate form of true Priesthood rituals?

From what I have read Masonry is not that old. They claim they helped build the Temple of Solomon... of course their group as masons did, there were masons back then.

I adhere to the belief that Joseph received a command to incorporate Temple worship into the LDS religion and happened to be involved with the masons at that time, and decided to use some of what the masons had to offer in order to provide a structure within which the Temple worship could be delivered. Symbolic ways to teach deep principles. Unfortunately, if the above is true, it was too similar, and now people accuse of plaigerism.

Equally possible, is the idea that yes, the masonic rituals etc. go back extremely far. I'm not opposed, I just don't know. All I know, is the worship is real.

[Inipi]

From what I have read Masonry is not that old. They claim they helped build the Temple of Solomon... of course their group as masons did, there were masons back then.

I adhere to the belief that Joseph received a command to incorporate Temple worship into the LDS religion and happened to be involved with the masons at that time, and decided to use some of what the masons had to offer in order to provide a structure within which the Temple worship could be delivered. Symbolic ways to teach deep principles. Unfortunately, if the above is true, it was too similar, and now people accuse of plaigerism.

Equally possible, is the idea that yes, the masonic rituals etc. go back extremely far. I'm not opposed, I just don't know. All I know, is the worship is real.

If Christ wanted Joseph to build temples and give endowments, wouldn't He instruct him as to the correct ceremonies? The temple is such a sacred place, I'm sure Christ wouldn't want just anything to be said or done in there without it being absolutely right and necessary.

This is what makes me wonder about the copied masonic rituals, symbols, etc. My whole lifetime as a temple-goer, I had a very hard time believing that what I was experiencing there was all actually coming from Christ.

Also, regarding the masonic distress call, I've read several accounts that state Joseph was trying to give it a the time he was shot. One of them:

Life of Heber C. Kimball, p. 26: " Joseph, leaping the fatal window, GAVE THE MASONIC SIGNAL OF DISTRESS."

Also:

"When the enemy surrounded the jail, rushed up the stairway, and killed Hyrum Smith, Joseph stood at the open window, his martyr-cry being these words, 'O Lord My God!' This was NOT the beginning of a prayer, because Joseph Smith did not pray in that manner. This brave, young man who knew that death was near, started to repeat THE DISTRESS SIGNAL OF THE MASONS, expecting thereby to gain the protection its members are pledged to give a brother in distress. 'In 1878, Zina D. Huntington Young said of this theme, 'I am the daughter of a Master Mason; I am the widow of the Master Mason who, when leaping from the window of Carthage jail, pierced with bullets, MADE THE MASONIC SIGN OF DISTRESS, but those signs were not heeded except by the God of Heaven.' " (Mormonism and Masonry, by E. Cecil McGavin, page 17)

[Garden Girl]

Hello California...

I would encourage you to read Nibley's "Temples and Cosmos" (the temple portion for sure), and some of the papers on ancient temple worship (particularly one by John Tvedtnes available in the Topical Guide at FAIR). And one by Dr. Lynn M. Hilton titled "The Hand as a Cup in Ancient Temple Worship.'

Off Topic... because Mudcat started it...

My hubby was in the South Pacific during WWII, and then part of the occupation in Japan when the war ended. He brought home two beautiful kimonas, and a samurai sword...very sharp... with inlaid ivory in the handle. The blade was beautiful and remained sharp and shiny. He finally sold the sword to a collector in San Fran before we moved to come up here... truly a lovely sword. We never took the handle apart, but were told inside would be the bearer's family history/lineage.

Garden Girl

[Bill Hamblin]

What does this issue tell you about me? What does it tell you about John Taylor? What does it tell you about Richard Bushman?

In all cases, it tells us what they think Joseph was thinking. It does not tell us what Joseph was thinking.

[smac97]

The people who harp on this are, principally, critics of the Church. Take a look.

By and large, Mormons are not inclined to take anti-Mormon averments at face value, probably because such averments are generally intended to harm the Church and destroy the faith of its members.

That's not to say that these averments are necessarily false, only that they are not offered in good faith.

-Smac

[smac97]

That's kind of how I am. It just seemed to me that last time this topic came up there was a lot of emotion behind the assertion that IT WAS NOT MASONIC! Just wondering why.

Because anti-Mormons are the only ones who bring it up. And they do it not for its historical interest or any other legitimate reason. They do it for shock value. They do it to destroy the faith of the Saints. Not surprising, then, that some Mormons have a knee-jerk resistance to the notion.

-Smac

[LifeOnaPlate]

What does this issue tell you about me? What does it tell you about John Taylor? What does it tell you about Richard Bushman?

Do either of those men rule out the possibility of it being a prayer rather than masonic call, or even the possibility that it was both? Not that I've ever seen.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Is there anyone that can give me a good reason why so many Mormon's or you personally oppose the idea that Joseph was speaking the Masonic Distress Call when he was shot?

Is this the whole "God help this poor widow's Son" thing again? He was a poor widow's Son.

[junesu]

1 Kings 3:7
And now, O LORD my God, thou hast made thy servant king instead of David my father: and I am but a little child: I know not how to go out or come in.
1 Kings 3:6-8 (in Context) 1 Kings 3 (Whole Chapter)

1 Kings 8:28
Yet have thou respect unto the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O LORD my God, to hearken unto the cry and to the prayer, which thy servant prayeth before thee to day:
1 Kings 8:27-29 (in Context) 1 Kings 8 (Whole Chapter)

1 Kings 17:20
And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?
1 Kings 17:19-21 (in Context) 1 Kings 17 (Whole Chapter)

1 Kings 17:21
And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
1 Kings 17:20-22 (in Context) 1 Kings 17 (Whole Chapter)

1 Chronicles 21:17
And David said unto God, Is it not I that commanded the people to be numbered? even I it is that have sinned and done evil indeed; but as for these sheep, what have they done? let thine hand, I pray thee, O LORD my God, be on me, and on my father's house; but not on thy people, that they should be plagued.
1 Chronicles 21:16-18 (in Context) 1 Chronicles 21 (Whole Chapter)

2 Chronicles 6:19
Have respect therefore to the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O LORD my God, to hearken unto the cry and the prayer which thy servant prayeth before thee:
2 Chronicles 6:18-20 (in Context) 2 Chronicles 6 (Whole Chapter)

Psalm 7:1
O LORD my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me:
Psalm 7:1-3 (in Context) Psalm 7 (Whole Chapter)

Psalm 7:3
O LORD my God, If I have done this; if there be iniquity in my hands;
Psalm 7:2-4 (in Context) Psalm 7 (Whole Chapter)

Psalm 13:3
Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
Psalm 13:2-4 (in Context) Psalm 13 (Whole Chapter)

Psalm 30:2
O LORD my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me.
Psalm 30:1-3 (in Context) Psalm 30 (Whole Chapter)

Psalm 30:12
To the end that my glory may sing praise to thee, and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks unto thee for ever.
Psalm 30:11-12 (in Context) Psalm 30 (Whole Chapter)

Psalm 35:24
Judge me, O LORD my God, according to thy righteousness; and let them not rejoice over me.
Psalm 35:23-25 (in Context) Psalm 35 (Whole Chapter)

Psalm 38:15
For in thee, O LORD, do I hope: thou wilt hear, O Lord my God.
Psalm 38:14-16 (in Context) Psalm 38 (Whole Chapter)

Psalm 40:5
Many, O LORD my God, are thy wonderful works which thou hast done, and thy thoughts which are to us-ward: they cannot be reckoned up in order unto thee: if I would declare and speak of them, they are more than can be numbered.
Psalm 40:4-6 (in Context) Psalm 40 (Whole Chapter)

Psalm 86:12
I will praise thee, O Lord my God, with all my heart: and I will glorify thy name for evermore.
Psalm 86:11-13 (in Context) Psalm 86 (Whole Chapter)

Psalm 104:1
Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.
Psalm 104:1-3 (in Context) Psalm 104 (Whole Chapter)

Psalm 109:26
Help me, O LORD my God: O save me according to thy mercy:
Psalm 109:25-27 (in Context) Psalm 109 (Whole Chapter)

Jonah 2:6
I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
Jonah 2:5-7 (in Context) Jonah 2 (Whole Chapter)

Habakkuk 1:12
Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.
Habakkuk 1:11-13 (in Context) Habakkuk 1 (Whole Chapter)

This has little relevance. Do you have any quotes of Joseph using the distress call in non-distress-call situations?

Is this the whole "God help this poor widow's Son" thing again? He was a poor widow's Son.

And you think that's why he was saying it??

[Doctor Steuss]

Also, regarding the masonic distress call, I've read several accounts that state Joseph was trying to give it a the time he was shot. One of them:

Life of Heber C. Kimball, p. 26: " Joseph, leaping the fatal window, GAVE THE MASONIC SIGNAL OF DISTRESS."

Also:

"When the enemy surrounded the jail, rushed up the stairway, and killed Hyrum Smith, Joseph stood at the open window, his martyr-cry being these words, 'O Lord My God!' This was NOT the beginning of a prayer, because Joseph Smith did not pray in that manner. This brave, young man who knew that death was near, started to repeat THE DISTRESS SIGNAL OF THE MASONS, expecting thereby to gain the protection its members are pledged to give a brother in distress. 'In 1878, Zina D. Huntington Young said of this theme, 'I am the daughter of a Master Mason; I am the widow of the Master Mason who, when leaping from the window of Carthage jail, pierced with bullets, MADE THE MASONIC SIGN OF DISTRESS, but those signs were not heeded except by the God of Heaven.' " (Mormonism and Masonry, by E. Cecil McGavin, page 17)

Just so the individuals who did this research get the credit (as well as credit for the editorializing with all-caps [bet you'll never guess who it is...])...

Jerald and Sandra Tanner, "Mormonism -- Shadow or Reality," Utah Lighthouse Ministry (1987), p. 485

Edited to add:

I personally think it likely he was making an appeal to whatever individuals in the mob that were Christian enough to respond to a Masonic distress call. Unfortunately, it didn't seem to work. It's certainly probable that it was simply a benign pious call, but I think the MDC equally (if not more-so) probable.

[edited 20 times for grammar and typos, and still not up to par... there's noise today in my noggin and it's making it hard to consentrate... sorry]

[LifeOnaPlate]

And you think that's why he was saying it??

papa is making a funny. Stick around a while, you'll get it.

Just so the individuals who did this research get the credit (as well as credit for the editorializing with all-caps [bet you'll never guess who it is...])...

Jerald and Sandra Tanner, "Mormonism -- Shadow or Reality," Utah Lighthouse Ministry (1987), p. 485

Edited to add:

I personally think it likely he was making an appeal to whatever individuals in the mob that were Christian enough to respond to a Masonic distress call. Unfortunately, it didn't seem to work. It's certainly probable that it was simple a benign pious call, but I think the MDC equally (if not more-so) probably.

[junesu]

papa is making a funny. Stick around a while, you'll get it.

Oh, ok. That is pretty funny. Sorry papa.

[phaedrus ut]

Because anti-Mormons are the only ones who bring it up. And they do it not for its historical interest or any other legitimate reason. They do it for shock value. They do it to destroy the faith of the Saints. Not surprising, then, that some Mormons have a knee-jerk resistance to the notion.

-Smac

That's funny I thought it was discussed by LDS people and Mormon scholars too. Is there no help for the widows son also coincidentally was the title for the 1974 address of the President of the Mormon History Association discussing our connections with masonry. It's also coincidentally the hidden cipher in the blockbuster novel The Da Vinci Code which hints to a Mason/Mormon plot line coming in his next novel.

I think it's interesting how apologists try to disconnect the authenticity of items like the temple ceremony with masonry. If the connections between the two are more than just coincidence the legitimacy of one ceremony is tied to the legitimacy of the other.

Phaedrus

[junesu]

Since we're all speculating about what happened at the

last moment of Joseph's life, here is my contribution:

He was given a "Stephen" experience and saw Jesus

standing on the right hand of the Father, and exclaimed,

"Oh Lord, My God."

Bernard

No one (except you) is speculating about what happened. We know what happened and what he said. The speculation is to why he said it.

[junesu]

That's not to say that these averments are necessarily false, only that they are not offered in good faith.

-Smac

What evidence do you have that they are not offered in good faith? And if they are true, does it matter whether or not they are offered in good faith?

(Sorry if this is another joke I'm not getting.)

[Bill Hamblin]

This has little relevance. Do you have any quotes of Joseph using the distress call in non-distress-call situations?

Do you have any other examples of Joseph ever using the entire Masonic distress call in any distress situation?

O Lord my God, When I in awesome wonder,

Consider all the worlds Thy Hands have made;

I see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder,

Thy power throughout the universe displayed.

Mason distress call, right?

[LifeOnaPlate]

If the connections between the two are more than just coincidence the legitimacy of one ceremony is tied to the legitimacy of the other.

Why?

[Lamanite]

I personally think it likely he was making an appeal to whatever individuals in the mob that were Christian enough to respond to a Masonic distress call. Unfortunately, it didn't seem to work. It's certainly probable that it was simply a benign pious call, but I think the MDC equally (if not more-so) probable.

This sums up my feelings exactly.

[LeSellers]

And if they are true, does it matter whether or not they are offered in good faith?

A truth that's told with bad intent

Beats all the lies you can invent.

— William Blake, "Auguries of Innocence".

Lehi

[Lamanite]

The people who harp on this are, principally, critics of the Church. Take a look.

By and large, Mormons are not inclined to take anti-Mormon averments at face value, probably because such averments are generally intended to harm the Church and destroy the faith of its members.

That's not to say that these averments are necessarily false, only that they are not offered in good faith.

-Smac

I guess I understand. Even though something may be true, if it was said by an Anti Mormon then we should rally against it?

I figure a "thanks for bringing it to our attention Mrs. Tanner", would be in order. Or maybe even a "duly noted Mr. Tanner". Oh, well....I guess I was hoping for a better reason than antoagonism and polemics.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I guess I understand. Even though something may be true, if it was said by an Anti Mormon then we should rally against it?

I figure a "thanks for bringing it to our attention Mrs. Tanner", would be in order. Or maybe even a "duly noted Mr. Tanner". Oh, well....I guess I was hoping for a better reason than antoagonism and polemics.

How about a big, hefty "I couldn't care less."