Masonic Distress Call

[Paul Ray]

I guess I understand. Even though something may be true, if it was said by an Anti Mormon then we should rally against it?

I figure a "thanks for bringing it to our attention Mrs. Tanner", would be in order. Or maybe even a "duly noted Mr. Tanner". Oh, well....I guess I was hoping for a better reason than antoagonism and polemics.

I think we are hoping for a better reason than antoagonism and polemics, which is why we don't always jump with glee at the offerings of anti-Mormons.

How about a big, hefty "I couldn't care less."

Or how about a big, hefty "Yes, I already knew that, although I wouldn't say it that way myself"

Perspective plays a big part in understanding what is true, don't you think?

[Inipi]

Because anti-Mormons are the only ones who bring it up. And they do it not for its historical interest or any other legitimate reason. They do it for shock value. They do it to destroy the faith of the Saints. Not surprising, then, that some Mormons have a knee-jerk resistance to the notion.

-Smac

I'm not an anti-Mormon. You can't know everyone's motivation. Some people are genuinely studying the topic.

[Lamanite]

I think we are hoping for a better reason than antoagonism and polemics, which is why we don't always jump with glee at the offerings of anti-Mormons.

Or how about a big, hefty "Yes, I already knew that, although I wouldn't say it that way myself"

Perspective plays a big part in understanding what is true, don't you think?

I think perspective plays a huge role. I love the Tanners for their ability to do a large amount of "homework", especially when I don't have the time to do it myself. The history they use is usually spot on. The spin they put on it because of their beliefs is often useless to me.

So I mine their quotes and histories and use them as a jumping off point to do more research and then come to conclusions on my own.

So although they may have used this as a sensational fact (the distress call), I say "hey it's probable and then move on".

I'm not an anti-Mormon. You can't know everyone's motivation. Some people are genuinely studying the topic.

Don't worry. Until you have more than one little orange square you'll be considered a "TROLL" or anti, if you don't embrace the status quo.

Just keep searching...or trolling - whichever the case may be.

[LifeOnaPlate]

The Tanners are notorious quote miners. They're history is as forthright as anything you might read in Newspeak in 1984.

[Inipi]

The Tanners are notorious quote miners. They're history is as forthright as anything you might read in Newspeak in 1984.

Actually, I've been impressed with the scrutiny of some of their research, no matter whether I agree with their opinions or not. They have also refuted some claims of anti-mormons with their work.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Actually, I've been impressed with the scrutiny of some of their research, no matter whether I agree with their opinions or not. They have also refuted some claims of anti-mormons with their work.

What is a polite way to say "I'm not surprised that you'd be impressed by their shallow trash"? Oh well, it doesn't matter now.

[Calm]

I don't see a problem with any interpretation whether he was calling out to Masons, to the Lord or to both in the confusion of the moment.

I tend to lean toward the prayer/exclamation theory due to the response of Brother Richards who said the same words, but were not part of the masonic distress call or as far as I know masonic anything. Makes me think they as a group had used the phrasing earlier in the day for some reason (prayer perhaps, reading the scriptures). Unless they had discussed the masonic distress signal as an option earlier as well, Isee it as much more likely that the last thing that would spring into a dying man's was an appeal to God, not to man.

A quote provided by kamenraider in an earlier thread:

Brother Richards was very much troubled, and exclaimed, "Oh! Brother Taylor, is it possible that they have killed both Brother Hyrum and Joseph? It cannot surely be, and yet I saw them shoot them;" and elevating his hands two or three times, he exclaimed, "Oh Lord, my God, spare Thy servants!" He then said, "Brother Taylor, this is a terrible event;" and he dragged me farther into the cell, saying, "I am sorry I can not do better for you;" and, taking an old, filthy mattress, he covered me with it, and said, "That may hide you, and you may yet live to tell the tale, but I expect they will kill me in a few moments!

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...0call&st=40

[MormonMason]

Yeah...I get it. What I'm wondering is why the aversion to the plausibility of the Distress call, that I get from a lot of Mormons. I think it's very possible it was a prayer. However, I think it's more probable given his status as a 32degree Mason and the statements of BY and JT concerning the event that he was verbalizing the Masonic distress call.

Haven't had a lot of time to post lately, and I will get to your list you requested as soon as I gain access to my books, but had a few seconds. Joseph Smith was NOT a 32nd Degree Mason. He was NOT a 33rd Degree Scottish Rite Mason. He was NOT a Scottish Rite Mason at all and all claims to the contrary are lies of worst rank. Joseph Smith was NOT a member of the York Rite of Freemasonry. Joseph Smith was a Blue Lodge Mason and did not go on to the Appendant Degrees after he was raised to the Sublime Degree of Master Mason (3rd Degree of Ancient Craft Masonry). In point of fact, THERE WERE NO SCOTTISH RITE BODIES IN ILLINOIS until well after Joseph Smith's death.

Do I think that Joseph Smith gave the cry of distress? I think so, particularly since a Mason was in the room with Joseph Smith and would have been aware of what he was doing and saying. John Taylor, that Mason who was a witness, would know what Joseph Smith was doing at the window. He saw him go to the window. So, I believe that he was giving the sign of distress. Can I prove it beyond John Taylor's word? No. But, I believe it and have no reason to doubt it. And, the sign of distress that Joseph Smith would have used would have been that of the Sublime or Master Mason's Degree.

Incidentally, I think your list should be a bit longer than what you have requested of me or you will continue to make misleading statements concerning Joseph Smith's "probable status" as a Scottish Rite Mason. He wasn't.

[MormonMason]

I'm all in favor of the Masonic distress call. It's just a further indictment of the character of those Masons in the mob who refused to remember their promises and obligations.

You are mistaken about what you say. That said, in fairness to you it is a fairly common misunderstanding. There are three reasons why these Masons did not come to Joseph Smith's aid.

1. The year previous, all Nauvoo Lodges were declared Clandestine by the Grand Lodge of Illinois for failure to comply with the edicts of the Grand Lodge, also one of the obligations of a Lodge of Master Masons. They were no longer recognized as legitimate Masons by the Fraternity.

2. The obligations of the Blue Lodge do not require a Mason to come to the aid of another Mason if there is a greater chance of losing one's own life than saving that of the Mason giving the call of distress.

3. None of these men were Scottish Rite Masons. The obligations of Scottish Rite Masons from the 14th Degree and higher are higher than those given in any Blue Lodge. A Scottish Rite Mason vows to come to the aid of another Scottish Rite Mason even at imminent hazard of life.

[MormonMason]

Are you personally opposed to the idea that what some people call the "Masonic Distress Call" can also be called an invocation to summon the powers of the Priesthood?

...

There is no sacerdotal priesthood in Freemasonry and no invocation to summon the powers of the priesthood in any form in Freemasonry.

[MormonMason]

In all cases, it tells us what they think Joseph was thinking. It does not tell us what Joseph was thinking.

But, in John Taylor's case, he would have seen what Joseph Smith was doing with his arms in the window. John Taylor is a primary witness. This primary witness stated that Joseph Smith gave the Masonic call of distress.

[MormonMason]

That's funny I thought it was discussed by LDS people and Mormon scholars too. Is there no help for the widows son also coincidentally was the title for the 1974 address of the President of the Mormon History Association discussing our connections with masonry. It's also coincidentally the hidden cipher in the blockbuster novel The Da Vinci Code which hints to a Mason/Mormon plot line coming in his next novel.

I think it's interesting how apologists try to disconnect the authenticity of items like the temple ceremony with masonry. If the connections between the two are more than just coincidence the legitimacy of one ceremony is tied to the legitimacy of the other.

Phaedrus

That 1974 address was garbage written in ignorance.

[MormonMason]

Brother Richards also appears to have been a primary witness to what Joseph was doing with his hands when he gave the call, even if his memory under duress added the words "spare thy servants" to the phrase. I have never heard of a prayer where the arms were raised in such a manner but as a Mason I would have recognized it right away.

On the other hand, it is entirely possible that Joseph Smith really did both, one after the other. I can see speculation as to that Joseph Smith first appealed to any Masons in the mob and then appealed to God failing that, or even vice versa. Both such a prayer and the sign of distress would have started with the same words so it is easy to see how memories of the event could have been conflated.

Nevertheless, John Taylor was a Mason who would have recognized the sign of distress on seeing it and would have known what Joseph Smith was attempting to do. I defer to John Taylor on this issue and have no reason to disbelieve his testimony on the matter. I firmly believe that the sign of distress was given. As to whether or not also a prayer was given within seconds at the window is also within the realm of possibilities to my mind.

[mnn727]

15 years now (adult convert) and I've never heard one Mormon say anything bad about the Masonic distess call, where are you getting this from?

Some people are genuinely studying the topic.

Why study that? Its a big waste of time, its one of those "So What?" and "Who cares?" things.

[MormonMason]

15 years now (adult convert) and I've never heard one Mormon say anything bad about the Masonic distess call, where are you getting this from?

I have and know people who received harsh treatment over this issue because they were Masons. I myself experienced some of this sort of thing, usually amongst Idaho Mormons from further up north. There is a heavy anti-Masonic sentiment there amongst many people and it has filtered down even into the Church in some places.

Why study that? Its a big waste of time, its one of those "So What?" and "Who cares?" things.

It is only a waste of time for those who are not interested in the truth and who work to bending facts to fit their theses rather than the other way around. True, it is a sort of "So what?" thing but if knowledge in this area can prevent atrocities directed against members of the Church who also are Masons, then it very much is an issue that should be studied in full and the context thoroughly understood.

There are those who use it as a means to villify Joseph Smith as a Mason and there are those who use this episode in history to villify Masons who are members of the Church. Understanding of the mechanics involved in the situation is a good thing. Far too many have misunderstood and remained in ignorance. If people want to take the time to arrive at the truth, so much the better.

[mnn727]

I maintain its a non-issue. ANyone that know even a tiny tiny bit of CHurch history knows many early CHurch members were Masons including JS and BY. Certainly anyone thats been to Nauvoo and visited the historic buildings know it. Its a fact that members can be masons and I still maintain its a "So what" kind of thing.

[Bill Hamblin]

But, in John Taylor's case, he would have seen what Joseph Smith was doing with his arms in the window. John Taylor is a primary witness. This primary witness stated that Joseph Smith gave the Masonic call of distress.

Technically, what JT say was JS raising his arms in a way that JT perceived as part of the Masonic call. JS may have been flailing about, or reaching up for the window seal to hoist himself through the window, or raising his arms in a gesture of surrender. That said, as I noted before, I would not be distressed if JS was doing the distress call. I simply think the data is ambiguous and we can't know what JS was thinking. We know, rather, what JT thought JS was doing.

[MormonMason]

I maintain its a non-issue. ANyone that know even a tiny tiny bit of CHurch history knows many early CHurch members were Masons including JS and BY. Certainly anyone thats been to Nauvoo and visited the historic buildings know it. Its a fact that members can be masons and I still maintain its a "So what" kind of thing.

To you, it is a non-issue. Fine. We all get that. However, to me it is not a non-issue. A great many members of the Church these days are ignorant of Church history. Most I have talked with on the subject never knew that Joseph Smith and the other first Presidents of the Church to Lorenzo Snow were Masons, as well as a number of other leaders of the Church. A number of these have fallen for the ignorant drivel spouted about by anti-Masons and we have a growing number of anti-Masons within even our own membership. This ignorance even goes so far as to bring persecution upon Masons from both local leadership and the members of the local Wards and Stakes. For those who suffer at the hands of those types of people, it is most definitely still an issue of some importance that must be addressed. Members of the Church must be educated so as not to be misled and so that the persecuted not become the persecutor.

[MormonMason]

Technically, what JT say was JS raising his arms in a way that JT perceived as part of the Masonic call. JS may have been flailing about, or reaching up for the window seal to hoist himself through the window, or raising his arms in a gesture of surrender. That said, as I noted before, I would not be distressed if JS was doing the distress call. I simply think the data is ambiguous and we can't know what JS was thinking. We know, rather, what JT thought JS was doing.

There is a specific way in which the arms are moved when the words are spoken. It does not look like flailing the arms. It does not look like reaching to a window sill to hoist oneself up through a window. The full range of motions involved do not look like a gesture of surrender. I highly doubt that Joseph Smith would have made a gesture of surrender anyway, knowing that he was going to die by the hands of that mob.

The pictures that are in most commonly used books that are exposures of Masonic ritual do not display the sign of distress correctly (and most I have read do not even describe the motions and the timing correctly!), displaying only the barest portion of one of the movements. Any Mason would recognize it on sight. John Taylor was a Mason who recognized in the full range of motion, a specific set of motions with each motion thereof co-ordinating with a particular word used during the giving of the sign of distress. It may be repeated, if necessary.

While it is true that we cannot with surety know precisely what was on Joseph Smith's mind that day, I believe we can trust John Taylor's judgment that Joseph Smith gave the sign of distress. While there are ambiguities in some little of the data, I think the evidence is in favor of the sign of distress being given, particularly from a Masonic point of view. Before I was a Mason, I was of the opinion that the data was too ambiguous to demonstrate anything. When I became a Mason, what I learned caused me to have to rethink my position on that matter. The motions are too specific to be taken for anything but the sign of distress, especially when the words involved are given with the specific motions and were recognized by another who was a brother Master Mason, John Taylor. What I can say is that, in Illinois, when in real distress the sign of distress was given three times, which is the number of times the Richards account gives us that Joseph Smith put his hand where he did. I wish I could say more on the matter but my obligations prevent me from doing so.

[Bill Hamblin]

There is a specific way in which the arms are moved when the words are spoken. It does not look like flailing the arms. It does not look like reaching to a window sill to hoist oneself up through a window. The full range of motions involved do not look like a gesture of surrender. I highly doubt that Joseph Smith would have made a gesture of surrender anyway, knowing that he was going to die by the hands of that mob.

The pictures that are in most commonly used books that are exposures of Masonic ritual do not display the sign of distress correctly (and most I have read do not even describe the motions and the timing correctly!), displaying only the barest portion of one of the movements. Any Mason would recognize it on sight. John Taylor was a Mason who recognized in the full range of motion, a specific set of motions with each motion thereof co-ordinating with a particular word used during the giving of the sign of distress. It may be repeated, if necessary.

While it is true that we cannot with surety know precisely what was on Joseph Smith's mind that day, I believe we can trust John Taylor's judgment that Joseph Smith gave the sign of distress. While there are ambiguities in some little of the data, I think the evidence is in favor of the sign of distress being given, particularly from a Masonic point of view. Before I was a Mason, I was of the opinion that the data was too ambiguous to demonstrate anything. When I became a Mason, what I learned caused me to have to rethink my position on that matter. The motions are too specific to be taken for anything but the sign of distress, especially when the words involved are given with the specific motions and were recognized by another who was a brother Master Mason, John Taylor. What I can say is that, in Illinois, when in real distress the sign of distress was given three times, which is the number of times the Richards account gives us that Joseph Smith put his hand where he did. I wish I could say more on the matter but my obligations prevent me from doing so.

What you are saying is correct. However, the final statement and act of JS occurred in mere seconds, with bullets flying, people dropping dead, John Taylor himself being nearly mortally wounded, and JS falling from the window a second later. I doubt very much that even if JS were attempting to enact a formal Masonic ritual gesture that he would have had the time or presence of mind to do it unambiguously, nor that JT would have had the presence of mind to carefully observe nor fully comprehend what was going on. Despite the inevitable chaos of the moment, I'm sure JT thought that was what JS was doing. But this still does not tell us what JS thought or was trying to do.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Hadn't Taylor rolled under the bed at this point?

[gkearney]

I would like to add the following LDS references to Joseph's use of the Grand Hailing Sign of Distress:

One of Joseph Smith's polygamous wives, Zina D. Huntington, declared:

"I am the widow of a master mason, who, when leaping from the window of Carthage Jail pierced with bullets, made the masonic sign of distress." - Latter-day Saint Biographical Encyclopedia, Andrew Jenson, Volume 1, page 698

"When the enemy surrounded the jail, rushed up the stairway, and killed Hyrum Smith, Joseph stood at the open window, his martyr-cry being these words, 'O Lord My God! This was not the beginning of a prayer, because Joseph Smith did not pray in that manner. This brave, young man who knew that death was near, started to repeat the distress signal of the Masons, expecting thereby to gain the protection its members are pledged to give a brother in distress." - Mormonism and Masonry, p. 16-17

"President Young said the people of the United States had sought our destruction and they had used every Exertion to perfect it. They have worked through the masonic institution to perfect it. Joseph & Hyrum Smith were Master Masons and they were put to death by masons or through there instigation and he gave the sign of distress & he was shot by masons while in the act." - Wilford Woodruff's Journal, August 19th, 1860, Volume 5

Wilford Woodruff's journals (spelling and punctuation in the original): 

"Presidets Young & Kimball with O. Pratt W.Woodruff J. Taylor G.A. Smith E. Snow F.D. Richards & G.Q. Cannon of the Twelve met for Prayer when the following conversation took place: President Young said the people of the United States had sought our destruction and they had used every Exertion to perfe[c]t it. They have worked through the masonic institution to perfect it. Joseph & Hyrum Smith were Master Masons and they were put to death by masons or through there instigation and he gave the sign of distress & he was shot by masons while in the act. And there were delegates from the various lodges in the Union to see that he was put to death....I hope to live to see the day when I can have power to make them do right. They have got the blood of the prophets upon their heads & they have got to meet it. When President Buchanan & the U.S. Government sent Col Johnson & the U.S. Army to Utah it was with the Express purpose to destroy the Church & kingdom from off the Earth to put to death this people. But the Lord sustained us & put them to shame & Confusion & to his name be the honor & glory. There are other Masons sent to this territory for the same purpose to Esstablish a lodge here & try to get an influence with some here to lay a plan to try to murder me & the leaders of the Church But they will not accomplish it." 

Sunday, April 19, 1860

[LifeOnaPlate]

Greg, we just listened to your Mormon Stories podcast this week (wife and I). It was enjoyable and informative to hear your perspective. My wife said you laugh a lot.

[Bill Hamblin]

I would like to add the following LDS references to Joseph's use of the Grand Hailing Sign of Distress:

One of Joseph Smith's polygamous wives, Zina D. Huntington, declared:

"I am the widow of a master mason, who, when leaping from the window of Carthage Jail pierced with bullets, made the masonic sign of distress." - Latter-day Saint Biographical Encyclopedia, Andrew Jenson, Volume 1, page 698

"When the enemy surrounded the jail, rushed up the stairway, and killed Hyrum Smith, Joseph stood at the open window, his martyr-cry being these words, 'O Lord My God! This was not the beginning of a prayer, because Joseph Smith did not pray in that manner. This brave, young man who knew that death was near, started to repeat the distress signal of the Masons, expecting thereby to gain the protection its members are pledged to give a brother in distress." - Mormonism and Masonry, p. 16-17

"President Young said the people of the United States had sought our destruction and they had used every Exertion to perfect it. They have worked through the masonic institution to perfect it. Joseph & Hyrum Smith were Master Masons and they were put to death by masons or through there instigation and he gave the sign of distress & he was shot by masons while in the act." - Wilford Woodruff's Journal, August 19th, 1860, Volume 5

Wilford Woodruff's journals (spelling and punctuation in the original): 

"Presidets Young & Kimball with O. Pratt W.Woodruff J. Taylor G.A. Smith E. Snow F.D. Richards & G.Q. Cannon of the Twelve met for Prayer when the following conversation took place: President Young said the people of the United States had sought our destruction and they had used every Exertion to perfe[c]t it. They have worked through the masonic institution to perfect it. Joseph & Hyrum Smith were Master Masons and they were put to death by masons or through there instigation and he gave the sign of distress & he was shot by masons while in the act. And there were delegates from the various lodges in the Union to see that he was put to death....I hope to live to see the day when I can have power to make them do right. They have got the blood of the prophets upon their heads & they have got to meet it. When President Buchanan & the U.S. Government sent Col Johnson & the U.S. Army to Utah it was with the Express purpose to destroy the Church & kingdom from off the Earth to put to death this people. But the Lord sustained us & put them to shame & Confusion & to his name be the honor & glory. There are other Masons sent to this territory for the same purpose to Esstablish a lodge here & try to get an influence with some here to lay a plan to try to murder me & the leaders of the Church But they will not accomplish it." 

Sunday, April 19, 1860

Only Willard Richards and John Taylor were there and survived. All of the above statements on the topic probably derive directly or indirectly from JT's account, and have no independent historical significance.