BofM Hill Cumorah?

[Russ]

Russ

UD is in some ways an advocate of the theory that someone else wrote the BofM and sees the Holley theory as evidence of this possibility. Wayne and May, however, have made a more extensive study of the possibility of a New York location for the BofM culture, somewhat more plausible than Holley's. It, however, fails to meet the textual criteria for the relative locations of Cumorah, the narrow strip of wilderness, the seas and the land of Zarahemla as outlined in the OP. The major problem is that the Atlantic and Pacific oceans are too far apart and that the area between the Great lakes, if one assumes these to be the east and west seas, is north of the New York Hill Cumorah. Holley's original map showed this area to be the narrow strip of wilderness.

Unfortunately many of those who propose locations for the BofM culture fail to understand even the basic concepts of geography or they postulate catastrophic modifications unsupported by the geological record..

Larry P

Larry, if what the critics of the Book of Mormon say is true, that it's not an historical record, we could discuss narrow necks of land until we're ninety five years old and not get anywhere. Said another way, if Nephites and Lamanites never existed to begin with (I'm one that believes they didn't), and if Joseph or whoever penned the Book of Mormon just made it all up (which I believe that's the case), then any number of conversations could take place stating that one particular narrow neck does or doesn't fit here or there and another Cumorah does or doesn't fit here or there.

This theory, that theory. It's pointless because we have no starting point whatsoever to make a comparison.

What is striking to me is that the cities in the Book of Mormon are so much like cities found in the U.S.

They don't "sound" Central American in the least.

P.S. It's clear Smith had in mind New York as the setting for the BoM and it's clear he borrowed the names and put them into the BoM.

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]

What is striking to me is that the cities in the Book of Mormon are so much like cities found in the U.S.

[...]

Especially in Utah.

[cinepro]

We have been told by revelation that the BofM took place on the American continents.

Isn't that like saying "We've been told by revelation that Noah's flood was global and catastrophic"? Or "We've been told by revelation that there was no death in the world before Adam's fall"? Or "We've been told by revelation that the Hill Cumorah is located in what is now New York state"?

[Calm]

Church literature places the original landing of Lehiâ??s family in South America (specifically Peru).

CFR please.

[Sargon]

Sargon, have I asked you before?

Do you see similarities between the cities mentioned in the Book of Mormon and that of the cities of Smith's youth? If so, do you (as I) find them convincing enough to conclude a U.S. setting for the Book of Mormon.

Based on your post I assume your answer will be "no." Why is that? I find the similarities quite striking.

Do let me know when you compile your list and do let me know if place-names in the Book of Mormon match up with place-names in Central America.

P.S. Please, let's not lable Holley as dishonest in his maps. It's appartent that his work is honest as he sees it.

Of the massive number of original place-names in the BoM, I find nothing impressive about a mere 10 having similar sounding names to locations in 19th century New England. I think Holley's map stretches to make a point that is not there.

If I recall, Uncle Dale said that in working on this map with Holley they disagreed on the location of Sidon, a pretty fundamental disagreement if you ask me.

It is important that the maps that our critics create for the BoM such as this one are internally consistent with the BoM. We should rightly assume that if Joseph or whoever the author of the BoM is were penning a book and using the geography of New England as their guide, the book should accurately reflect the geography of New England. That is the basis of the theory after all.

And so, Larry P is correct to demand that any map, including Holley's, needs to be a bit more aligned with what the BoM actually says.

Sargon

[Russ]

Of the massive number of original place-names in the BoM, I find nothing impressive about a mere 10 having similar sounding names to locations in 19th century New England. I think Holley's map stretches to make a point that is not there.

If I recall, Uncle Dale said that in working on this map with Holley they disagreed on the location of Sidon, a pretty fundamental disagreement if you ask me.

It is important that the maps that our critics create for the BoM such as this one are internally consistent with the BoM. We should rightly assume that if Joseph or whoever the author of the BoM is were penning a book and using the geography of New England as their guide, the book should accurately reflect the geography of New England. That is the basis of the theory after all.

And so, Larry P is correct to demand that any map, including Holley's, needs to be a bit more aligned with what the BoM actually says.

Sargon

Sargon, I understand what you mean. You desire perfection above all else or you'll find something (anything) to criticize, e.g. Dale and Vern disagreed on Sidon.

For me, however, the names point to the U.S.

Why? Just because I'm a critic? Nah, not just 'cuz of that. But rather because the names are much more similar to the N.E. U.S. and S.E. Canada than they are to Central America, that's why. Guatemala? Quetzalcoatl?

How 'bout:

Jacobugath/Jacobsburg

Jerusalem/Jerusalem

Valley of Alma/Alma

Shilom/Shiloh

Kishkumen/Kishkiminetas Junction

Lehi-Nephi/Lehigh County

Onidah/Oneida Castle

Angola/Angola

Morianton/Moravianton

Teancum/Tecumsah

Ramah/Rama

Moron/Morin

Ogath/Agathe

Ephraim/Ephraim

Shurr/Sherbrooke

It seems to me that someone should say, "Well, they do look similar. Just a little," rather than nitpicking at Sidon.

I'd be most interested in learning more of Dale's and Vern's collaboration as I have Vern's map posted on my website and would be interested in adding to that page.

P.S. If you were to tell me straight up, you don't merely want Holley's map to be "a bit" more aligned. You actually desire something else, don't you.

[grego]

Do the city names mentioned in the Book of Mormon sound Central American to you?

No. Should they?

Does New Amsterdam sound very English to you?

=-=-=

We read much of the Hill Onidah, the Hill Ramah, and the city of the City of Angolaâ??all place names in the land of Joseph Smith's youth.

We do? Sorry, just nitpicking.

-=-=-=

We read, in the Book of Mormon of the Land of Desolation named for a warrior named Teancum who helped General Moroni fight in the Land of Desolation.

Desolation is named after Teancum? Sorry, just nitpicking.

-=-=-=

I know of more than one Mormon who has admitted that.

Oh, no!! We're all broiled at last!

-=-=-=

Larry, if what the critics of the Book of Mormon say is true, that it's not an historical record, we could discuss narrow necks of land until we're ninety five years old and not get anywhere. Said another way, if Nephites and Lamanites never existed to begin with (I'm one that believes they didn't), and if Joseph or whoever penned the Book of Mormon just made it all up (which I believe that's the case), then any number of conversations could take place stating that one particular narrow neck does or doesn't fit here or there and another Cumorah does or doesn't fit here or there.

This theory, that theory. It's pointless because we have no starting point whatsoever to make a comparison.

What is striking to me is that the cities in the Book of Mormon are so much like cities found in the U.S.

They don't "sound" Central American in the least.

P.S. It's clear Smith had in mind New York as the setting for the BoM and it's clear he borrowed the names and put them into the BoM.

Looks like someone is chasing their tail here. No double standards, eh? Whether one says it's true or not, you brought up the question, does it all add up? Well, Sargon and poulsenll said, a few names do, but the majority of the names and the text requirements for location don't. Is there more?

Then there is the question that *you* should answer: How did JS know just what to "copy"? If you walk into the backroom of a museum of ancient artifacts of all differing prices, and some are authentic and some are fraudulent, which ones do you steal and try to sell?

And how did those places in NY get their names? Were any perhaps named after the BoM?

[charity]

Do the city names mentioned in the Book of Mormon sound Central American to you?

No. Why should they? If the cites were continuously occupied, there might be a hope of that. But when a civilization disappears, and newcomers find the ruins, they rename them. Why do you think some many central American places have Spanish names? Not because the Spanish originally settled those places. They just took them over, and gave them Spanish names.

And what cities were incorporated after the publication of the Book of Mormon?

Angola 1873 and Jerusalem, which was a Bible name anyway, in 1850. Just for starters.

[Russ]

"Do the city names mentioned in the Book of Mormon sound Central American to you?"

No. Why should they? If the cites were continuously occupied, there might be a hope of that. But when a civilization disappears, and newcomers find the ruins, they rename them. Why do you think some many central American places have Spanish names? Not because the Spanish originally settled those places. They just took them over, and gave them Spanish names.

And what cities were incorporated after the publication of the Book of Mormon?

Angola 1873 and Jerusalem, which was a Bible name anyway, in 1850. Just for starters.

Charity, before we continue on, do you agree that "Incorporated" and "established" are two different things? Many towns existed for nearly one hundred years before they were incorported. Wellton, Arizona is one such town. In other words, folks said "Yeah, the waterin' hole is in Wellton" even though the town wasn't at the time incorporated. In still other words, people knew about Wellton before it was incorporated.

P.S. I think Joseph had in mind the N.E. U.S.

P.P.P.S.S. ... S. Another such place is Mt. Merritt, CA. It's just outside El Cajon, CA, just outside San Diego, CA. It remains unincorporated to this day. I know because I used to live there. But you'll be hard pressed to tell me that it (and I) don't exist. <smile>

[SolarPowered]

How 'bout:

Jacobugath/Jacobsburg

Jerusalem/Jerusalem

Valley of Alma/Alma

Shilom/Shiloh

Kishkumen/Kishkiminetas Junction

Lehi-Nephi/Lehigh County

Onidah/Oneida Castle

Angola/Angola

Morianton/Moravianton

Teancum/Tecumsah

Ramah/Rama

Moron/Morin

Ogath/Agathe

Ephraim/Ephraim

Shurr/Sherbrooke

It seems to me that someone should say, "Well, they do look similar. Just a little," rather than nitpicking at Sidon.

Well, let's see:

Jacobugath/Jacobsburg -- Nope.

Jerusalem/Jerusalem -- Yep. But they come from the same source via independent routes.

Valley of Alma/Alma -- OK.

Shilom/Shiloh -- No. Those are different Biblical names. And again, same source, different route.

Kishkumen/Kishkiminetas Junction -- Nope.

Lehi-Nephi/Lehigh County -- Uh, sort of.

Onidah/Oneida Castle -- Yah, they sound the same.

Angola/Angola -- OK.

Morianton/Moravianton -- Not really.

Teancum/Tecumsah -- Not even close.

Ramah/Rama -- Yes, they sound the same.

Moron/Morin -- Yah, they're pretty close.

Ogath/Agathe -- Not really.

Ephraim/Ephraim -- Same source, different route.

Shurr/Sherbrooke -- No.

My Book of Mormon has a "Pronouncing Guide" in the back, listing the names in the book. It is in double columns, and nearyly four pages long. I estimate that there are around 340 names there. That you would get six names in the BoM and in the New England area that are similar is not surprising.

I note that people have also found overlaps with names in Mesoamerica.

[Russ]

Well, let's see:

Jacobugath/Jacobsburg -- Nope.

Jerusalem/Jerusalem -- Yep. But they come from the same source via independent routes.

Valley of Alma/Alma -- OK.

Shilom/Shiloh -- No. Those are different Biblical names. And again, same source, different route.

Kishkumen/Kishkiminetas Junction -- Nope.

Lehi-Nephi/Lehigh County -- Uh, sort of.

Onidah/Oneida Castle -- Yah, they sound the same.

Angola/Angola -- OK.

Morianton/Moravianton -- Not really.

Teancum/Tecumsah -- Not even close.

Ramah/Rama -- Yes, they sound the same.

Moron/Morin -- Yah, they're pretty close.

Ogath/Agathe -- Not really.

Ephraim/Ephraim -- Same source, different route.

Shurr/Sherbrooke -- No.

My Book of Mormon has a "Pronouncing Guide" in the back, listing the names in the book. It is in double columns, and nearyly four pages long. I estimate that there are around 340 names there. That you would get six names in the BoM and in the New England area that are similar is not surprising.

I note that people have also found overlaps with names in Mesoamerica.

Okee dokee. Believe as you will.

P.S. The last book in my Bible isn't Revelation. It's the Book of Maps. Where's your book of maps? That's not a taunt. That's a serious question. I can see Paul's missionary journeys. So can you. But you can't show me LDS missionary journeys in the BoM.

Edit: Dang, I kain't spel.

[SeattleGrunge]

Jerusalem/Jerusalem -- Yep. But they come from the same source via independent routes.

Shilom/Shiloh -- No. Those are different Biblical names. And again, same source, different route.

Ephraim/Ephraim -- Same source, different route.

Russ, when you throw the three above in it hurts your argument a lot.

[Zemah]

CFR please.

I don't have a copy of what I saw depicted as a foldout timeline of the BOM chronology of events. Included on the foldout was a map showing the travels of Lehi and his family down the west side of the Arabian peninsula, into the Indian ocean, and across the Pacific; the end point was in South America around Peru.

I should have said â??LDS publicationâ? not â??LDS literatureâ?.

Zemah

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Okee dokee. Believe as you will.

P.S. The last book in my Bible isn't Revelation. It's the Book of Maps. Where's your book of maps? That's not a taunt. That's a serious question. I can see Paul's missonary journeys. So can you. But you can't show me LDS missionary journies in the BoM.

O book of maps?? Ok Russ you got us. DO you have any more "serious" questions?

A fail how a map proves anything.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

One more thing Russ,

Does a map of Jerusalem prove Jesus devinity? If so how?

[T-Shirt]

P.S. Please, let's not lable Holley as dishonest in his maps. It's appartent that his work is honest as he sees it.

I don't know if it was intentional or not, but Kishkiminetas Junction is fairly deceptive as the actual name does not have an "h" in it. It should be spelled, "Kiskiminetas". The town was created in 1832. It was named after a river. The name is a corrupted version of an Indian name; Gieschgumanito. Even if Joseph was aware of the river, (the town didn't exist yet.) do you think it is just coincidence that as Joseph cleverly changed the name, the words, "Kish" and "Kumen", both turned out to be legitimate Hebrew names?

I guess everyone gets lucky once in a while.

Now, for the sake of argument, let's say that this was all part of Joseph's plan, to take Kiskiminetas and turn it into a more Hebrew sounding word by making in Kishkumen (which, frankly, sounds pretty goofy), why, then, after creating all these, alleged, similar names from local towns, do you think he decided to use, "Angola" without any changes? Do you think he just ran out of ideas? Was the task, ultimately, too difficult, stretching his imagination just too far, that he couldn't come up with anything to disguise his use of the word, "Angola"?

T-Shirt

[Freedom]

In terms of names, there are only 26 letters in the English alphabet and only 5 vowels. No matter what names you come up with, you will find similar sounding names in any given region. I challenge anybody here to come up with 50 viable original names and not have them to close to already existing common names. There simply are not enough sound combinations to allow for that.

[Russ]

Russ, when you throw the three above in it hurts your argument a lot.

"Owww." Is there a doctor in this LDS house? SeattleGrunge says my argument has been wounded.

SeattleGrunge, share my smile and realize it's not my argument. It's a map which causes me to sing "things that make you go hmmm."

The BoM sez things happened and the BoM sez they happened in places remarkably similar to those places around New York rather than Central America.

Agreed?

[Russ]

In terms of names, there are only 26 letters in the English alphabet and only 5 vowels. No matter what names you come up with, you will find similar sounding names in any given region. I challenge anybody here to come up with 50 viable original names and not have them to close to already existing common names. There simply are not enough sound combinations to allow for that.

A gauntlet being thrown down via challenge. Picture the hooded horseman riding furiously upon the back of his trusted stud, helmet on, shield being set, spear at the ready....

(C'mon, give me a smile and put a shrimp on the barbie for me, okay?)

*Squeak* goes the anti-Mormon mouse, "I'm just trying to point out similarities of place-names (found in Holley's map) more common in N.E. U.S. rather than Cental America."

Do you folks see it? Just a little similarity?

[Russ]

I don't know if it was intentional or not, but Kishkiminetas Junction is fairly deceptive as the actual name does not have an "h" in it. It should be spelled, "Kiskiminetas". The town was created in 1832. It was named after a river. The name is a corrupted version of an Indian name; Gieschgumanito. Even if Joseph was aware of the river, (the town didn't exist yet.) do you think it is just coincidence that as Joseph cleverly changed the name, the words, "Kish" and "Kumen", both turned out to be legitimate Hebrew names?

I guess everyone gets lucky once in a while.

Now, for the sake of argument, let's say that this was all part of Joseph's plan, to take Kiskiminetas and turn it into a more Hebrew sounding word by making in Kishkumen (which, frankly, sounds pretty goofy), why, then, after creating all these, alleged, similar names from local towns, do you think he decided to use, "Angola" without any changes? Do you think he just ran out of ideas? Was the task, ultimately, too difficult, stretching his imagination just too far, that he couldn't come up with anything to disguise his use of the word, "Angola"?

T-Shirt

T-Shirt, pretend you're in a classroom with those who study such things. Do you really think your defense will be found sufficient? Seriously. Forget me as an "anti-Mormon." Think about standing with Holley's map in front of 50 grad students (not that I've ever been there) and you're defending your dissertation.

Those in front of you may have just bought into your line of reasoning. But they also might have wondered: what about the rest of the cities? They do look a little similar. And they don't look like what we know to be cities of Central America. ("Things that make you go hmmm.")

You must take them apart one by one to squelch the critic.

P.S. Or you can say (as Charity) "they renamed them."

And then the critics will say, "Sorry, argument from silence."

[Noggin]

Hi

I did a thread on the Holley maps last year. Here is the link:

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...ton+moravianton

On the first page of that thread, I was accused of posing as Russ from Carm. At the time I had no idea who Russ from Carm was. Now I get it! I hope if anyone wants to still accuse me of being a poser, they will ask admin to verify that Russ and I have completely different IP addresses. I am not Russ from Carm.

Anyhow, Russ, if you want to review the thread it is 14 pages long and gets quite animated. Angola fails to meet the test. I spoke with the county historian at the time that this thread was battling and he confirmed that Angola was named hearsay like after an 1867 train accident killed 50 persons and occurred near a railway station named Angola, the accident was dubbed "The Angola Horror"... so it was not a city or town yet. As I recall, the name Angola came from an obscure religious group out of Angola Africa. Meaning, Angola was the name of an early 19th century African religious group in that area before it was ever the name of a town. Angola finds more strength in a floundered attempt to resurrect a connection to Book of Mormon names when one considers if the Angola slave trade ferrying through New York could possibly have bearing on Smith choosing it for one of his B of M names?? Regardless, I think it was Joseph Antley who blew the Angola argument out of the water when he discovered in the original B of M transcript it was spelled Angelah.

Also, I am fully convinced that the names Moravianton and Tecumseh are dead ringers for Morianton and Teancum. Consider the context:

Alma 50: 35

35 And it came to pass that the army which was sent by Moroni, which was led by a man whose name was Teancum, did meet the people of Morianton; and so stubborn were the people of Morianton, (being inspired by his wickedness and his flattering words) that a battle commenced between them, in the which Teancum did slay Morianton and defeat his army, and took them prisoners, and returned to the camp of Moroni. And thus ended the twenty and fourth year of the reign of the judges

(reposting from the other thread last year:)

The Battle of the Thames, also known as the Battle of Moraviantown, was a decisive American victory in the War of 1812 which took place on October 5, 1813, near Chatham, Ontario in present-day Canada.

So here we have Teancum portrayed almost to the status equal counterpart of Tecumseh in the book of Mormon. Lest you forget, Teancum as Moroni's right hand man, led many armies under Captn Moroni's command and was the one who

1. defeated Morianton as described above

2. defeated the Amalekites

3. snuck into the tent of the Amalakite king and threw a javelin into the heart of the king

4. threw the javelin into the heart of another lamanite foe... but this time Teancum died a hero's death after having done his heroic deed

Let's look at how Tecumseh died: (from the same wiki source)

Immediately Procter and the British turned and fled the field, many of them surrendering. Tecumseh remained and kept up the fighting. Richard Johnson at the head of about 20 cavaliers charged into the Indian position to draw attention away from the main American force, but Tecumseh and his warriors answered with a volley of musketfire that stopped the cavalry charge in its tracks. Fifteen of the men were killed or wounded and Johnson himself was hit five times. Johnson's main force became bogged down in the mud of the swamp. Tecumseh was killed in this fighting; Colonel Johnson may have been the one who killed Tecumseh, though the evidence is far from certain. The main force finally made its way through the swamp and James Johnson's troops were freed from their attack on the British. With the American reinforcements converging and news of the death of Tecumseh spreading quickly the Indian resistance quickly dissolved. Mounted troops then moved on and burned Moraviantown, a peaceful settlement of Christian Munsee Indians

[T]he death of Tecumseh was pivotal. This paragraph shows the heroic death granted to this Indian. I am quite certain that this story reached the Smith family.

Now look at how Tecumseh's possible shadow counterpart, Teancum, died.

Alma 62: 36

36 And it came to pass that Teancum in his anger did go forth into the camp of the Lamanites, and did let himself down over the walls of the city. And he went forth with a cord, from place to place, insomuch that he did find the king; and he did cast a javelin at him, which did pierce him near the heart. But behold, the king did awaken his servants before he died, insomuch that they did pursue Teancum, and slew him.

Teancum was the stuff that legends were made up of. So was Tecumseh. Many parallels, easy to see.

Tecumseh, Teancum; Moraviatown, Morianton

Noggin

[Calm]

I don't have a copy of what I saw depicted as a foldout timeline of the BOM chronology of events. Included on the foldout was a map showing the travels of Lehi and his family down the west side of the Arabian peninsula, into the Indian ocean, and across the Pacific; the end point was in South America around Peru.

I should have said â??LDS publicationâ? not â??LDS literatureâ?.

Zemah

Was it published by Church Distribution or by a nonChurch LDS publisher?

[Russ]

Hi

I did a thread on the Holley maps last year. Here is the link:

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...ton+moravianton

On the first page of that thread, I was accused of posing as Russ from Carm. At the time I had no idea who Russ from Carm was. Now I get it! I hope if anyone wants to still accuse me of being a poser, they will ask admin to verify that Russ and I have completely different IP addresses. I am not Russ from Carm.

Anyhow, Russ, if you want to review the thread it is 14 pages long and gets quite animated. Angola fails to meet the test. I spoke with the county historian at the time that this thread was battling and he confirmed that Angola was named hearsay like after an 1867 train accident killed 50 persons and occurred near a railway station named Angola, the accident was dubbed "The Angola Horror"... so it was not a city or town yet. As I recall, the name Angola came from an obscure religious group out of Angola Africa. Meaning, Angola was the name of an early 19th century African religious group in that area before it was ever the name of a town. Angola finds more strength in a floundered attempt to resurrect a connection to Book of Mormon names when one considers if the Angola slave trade ferrying through New York could possibly have bearing on Smith choosing it for one of his B of M names?? Regardless, I think it was Joseph Antley who blew the Angola argument out of the water when he discovered in the original B of M transcript it was spelled Angelah.

Also, I am fully convinced that the names Moravianton and Tecumseh are dead ringers for Morianton and Teancum. Consider the context:

Alma 50: 35

35 And it came to pass that the army which was sent by Moroni, which was led by a man whose name was Teancum, did meet the people of Morianton; and so stubborn were the people of Morianton, (being inspired by his wickedness and his flattering words) that a battle commenced between them, in the which Teancum did slay Morianton and defeat his army, and took them prisoners, and returned to the camp of Moroni. And thus ended the twenty and fourth year of the reign of the judges

(reposting from the other thread last year:)

The Battle of the Thames, also known as the Battle of Moraviantown, was a decisive American victory in the War of 1812 which took place on October 5, 1813, near Chatham, Ontario in present-day Canada.

So here we have Teancum portrayed almost to the status equal counterpart of Tecumseh in the book of Mormon. Lest you forget, Teancum as Moroni's right hand man, led many armies under Captn Moroni's command and was the one who

1. defeated Morianton as described above

2. defeated the Amalekites

3. snuck into the tent of the Amalakite king and threw a javelin into the heart of the king

4. threw the javelin into the heart of another lamanite foe... but this time Teancum died a hero's death after having done his heroic deed

Let's look at how Tecumseh died: (from the same wiki source)

Immediately Procter and the British turned and fled the field, many of them surrendering. Tecumseh remained and kept up the fighting. Richard Johnson at the head of about 20 cavaliers charged into the Indian position to draw attention away from the main American force, but Tecumseh and his warriors answered with a volley of musketfire that stopped the cavalry charge in its tracks. Fifteen of the men were killed or wounded and Johnson himself was hit five times. Johnson's main force became bogged down in the mud of the swamp. Tecumseh was killed in this fighting; Colonel Johnson may have been the one who killed Tecumseh, though the evidence is far from certain. The main force finally made its way through the swamp and James Johnson's troops were freed from their attack on the British. With the American reinforcements converging and news of the death of Tecumseh spreading quickly the Indian resistance quickly dissolved. Mounted troops then moved on and burned Moraviantown, a peaceful settlement of Christian Munsee Indians

[T]he death of Tecumseh was pivotal. This paragraph shows the heroic death granted to this Indian. I am quite certain that this story reached the Smith family.

Now look at how Tecumseh's possible shadow counterpart, Teancum, died.

Alma 62: 36

36 And it came to pass that Teancum in his anger did go forth into the camp of the Lamanites, and did let himself down over the walls of the city. And he went forth with a cord, from place to place, insomuch that he did find the king; and he did cast a javelin at him, which did pierce him near the heart. But behold, the king did awaken his servants before he died, insomuch that they did pursue Teancum, and slew him.

Teancum was the stuff that legends were made up of. So was Tecumseh. Many parallels, easy to see.

Tecumseh, Teancum; Moraviatown, Morianton

Noggin

LOL. Noggin, meet your alter-ego-nemesis-multiple-personality, Russ.

P.S. Good work, Noggin.

[T-Shirt]

And they don't look like what we know to be cities of Central America. ("Things that make you go hmmm.")

What did "Central American" city names look like in the time of the Book of Mormon? Can you name one?

T-Shirt

[Aquilifer]

T-Shirt, pretend you're in a classroom with those who study such things. Do you really think your defense will be found sufficient? Seriously.

The town didn't exist in 1829, and you find that an insufficient defense?

I'm glad you're here to set such high standards of evidence!