BofM Hill Cumorah?

[J Green]

After looking in on this thread earlier, I'm intrigued to come back and find that Russ has been allowed to hijack the Poulsenll's interesting discussion with a straw map. And not just ONE straw map, mind you, but TWO straw maps. To make matters worse, they're not even original, they're just CUT-AND-PASTE straw maps. A few thoughts:

1. The "BOM" map has been doctored based on where towns with "similar" names were located on a supposed "Modern" map. Which leads us to the fact that . . .

2. The "Modern" map is simply miserable stuff. At best, only half of the names are close enough for consideration. Of the few (these happy few?) that are left, how many a) were actually named that (incorporated, settled, or in any context) before 1830?; b) actually unique to the BOM but not the Bible?; and c) are unique enough that choosing THAT city location to represent on the map over many others with the same name in different locations doesn't smack of home cooking? Can the class say "Religious Gerrymandering?"

3. Instead of old, lazy attempts, perhaps Russ could do the reasearch (in 2 above) and then plot the few (if any) cities left on a new map in a new thread for our enjoyment. Then we could discuss how many intelligent people would find the map interesting or reasonable.

4. Better yet, instead of using someone else's imaginary map, perhaps Russ could use an actual map from the right time period. Perhaps something from the Perry-Casta

[Russ]

What did "Central American" city names look like in the time of the Book of Mormon? Can you name one?

T-Shirt

If I could would you admit there's a problem worth facing?

Even then, I don't think you would.

But alas, I'm an expert on Central America, especially during the time of Christ (with a lot of help from Google <laugh>):

â?¢ ca. 800 B.C. The village of La Mula-Sarigua on Parita Bay in central Panama becomes a regional center. The greater presence of metates (grinding tables) and manos (grinding stones) indicates the increased availability of corn as a food crop.

â?¢ ca. 500 B.C. Budares (flat griddles), used in the processing of bitter manioc for food, are present at the site of La Montana in the Turrialba valley of Costa Rica.

â?¢ ca. 500 B.C. A jadeite pendant in the form of a celt with a bird-head top is placed in a bundle burial on the shores of the Gulf of Nicoya in Costa Rica. The bird-headed celt form will be used for pendants in northern and central Costa Rica for many centuries.

â?¢ ca. 300 B.C. An identifiable ceramic type, known for its distinctive, incised surface patterning, is placed in burials in Greater Nicoya, a region that encompasses southern Nicaragua and northwestern Costa Rica.

â?¢ ca. 200 B.C. Small villages are present in Greater Chiriqu

[Russ]

The town didn't exist in 1829, and you find that an insufficient defense?

I'm glad you're here to set such high standards of evidence!

How do you know?

When was it established and when was it incorporated?

[Russ]

Oh, I love it.

2. The "Modern" map is simply miserable stuff. At best, only half of the names are close enough for consideration. Of the few (these happy few?) that are left, how many a) were actually named that (incorporated, settled, or in any context) before 1830?;

Would you mind doing that homework for us as to disprove Holley?

[J Green]

How do you know?

When was it established and when was it incorporated?

Angola New York

The community was previously called "Evans Station." In 1854 or 1855, a post office was established there, bearing the name Angola. The first postmaster was John H. Andrus, who later became county clerk. At this time, the community's name was changed to "Angola."

Source One

Source Two

Other names on your straw map are equally problematic. But really, this is YOUR borrowed argument---shouldn't YOU do the research?

[J Green]

Oh, I love it.

Would you mind doing that homework for us as to disprove Holley?

Uh, tempting, but no. You hijacked the OP with a borrowed map that has no merit. Again, actually do the reasearch on similarities and come up with your own map or use a REAL map from the time period. Or better yet, let us get back to the OP. I wouuld say "Cut it out!" but I fear that you may take that as an invitation to cut and paste another silly cartoon.

[Sargon]

It seems to me that someone should say, "Well, they do look similar. Just a little," rather than nitpicking at Sidon.

The maps that Holley invented look similar, sure. But the maps that Holley invented and the actual description of BoM lands in the book itself do not look anything alike. They do not look similar. It is not nitpicking to point out obvious flaws in Holley's map. Approximately 1/3 of the similar sounding cities and lands are in the wrong spot. The maps are actually quite different.

And, I will add, T-Shirt's argument was absolutely correct, and I believe it would be quite influential in a classroom full of graduate students.

Russ, if I make a map of Nebraska, adding cities that sound like BoM cities and placing them in the wrong places, and then another map exactly identical and say it is the BoM map, does that constitute evidence against Joseph Smith?

Sargon

[Sargon]

Also, I am fully convinced that the names Moravianton and Tecumseh are dead ringers for Morianton and Teancum. Consider the context:

Alma 50: 35

35 And it came to pass that the army which was sent by Moroni, which was led by a man whose name was Teancum, did meet the people of Morianton; and so stubborn were the people of Morianton, (being inspired by his wickedness and his flattering words) that a battle commenced between them, in the which Teancum did slay Morianton and defeat his army, and took them prisoners, and returned to the camp of Moroni. And thus ended the twenty and fourth year of the reign of the judges

(reposting from the other thread last year:)

The Battle of the Thames, also known as the Battle of Moraviantown, was a decisive American victory in the War of 1812 which took place on October 5, 1813, near Chatham, Ontario in present-day Canada.

So here we have Teancum portrayed almost to the status equal counterpart of Tecumseh in the book of Mormon. Lest you forget, Teancum as Moroni's right hand man, led many armies under Captn Moroni's command and was the one who

1. defeated Morianton as described above

2. defeated the Amalekites

3. snuck into the tent of the Amalakite king and threw a javelin into the heart of the king

4. threw the javelin into the heart of another lamanite foe... but this time Teancum died a hero's death after having done his heroic deed

Let's look at how Tecumseh died: (from the same wiki source)

Immediately Procter and the British turned and fled the field, many of them surrendering. Tecumseh remained and kept up the fighting. Richard Johnson at the head of about 20 cavaliers charged into the Indian position to draw attention away from the main American force, but Tecumseh and his warriors answered with a volley of musketfire that stopped the cavalry charge in its tracks. Fifteen of the men were killed or wounded and Johnson himself was hit five times. Johnson's main force became bogged down in the mud of the swamp. Tecumseh was killed in this fighting; Colonel Johnson may have been the one who killed Tecumseh, though the evidence is far from certain. The main force finally made its way through the swamp and James Johnson's troops were freed from their attack on the British. With the American reinforcements converging and news of the death of Tecumseh spreading quickly the Indian resistance quickly dissolved. Mounted troops then moved on and burned Moraviantown, a peaceful settlement of Christian Munsee Indians

[T]he death of Tecumseh was pivotal. This paragraph shows the heroic death granted to this Indian. I am quite certain that this story reached the Smith family.

Now look at how Tecumseh's possible shadow counterpart, Teancum, died.

Alma 62: 36

36 And it came to pass that Teancum in his anger did go forth into the camp of the Lamanites, and did let himself down over the walls of the city. And he went forth with a cord, from place to place, insomuch that he did find the king; and he did cast a javelin at him, which did pierce him near the heart. But behold, the king did awaken his servants before he died, insomuch that they did pursue Teancum, and slew him.

Teancum was the stuff that legends were made up of. So was Tecumseh. Many parallels, easy to see.

Tecumseh, Teancum; Moraviatown, Morianton

Noggin

This is simply silly. The stories of Teancum in the BoM and of Tecumsah have very little in common. Teancum went alone, at night, in secret, with a cord, and actually did it twice. The fact that two men both died in battle and who have names with the same number of syllables is not evidence.

Ever heard of Masada? How about the Alamo? You can find similarities easily, but the differences far outweigh them.

Sargon

[Warship]

Russ,

If you're a central american expert then you should know that most all the names of central american cities are not the orignal names given by those who made them, but rather names given much later that have no relationship to the actual names given by the people who built them and lived there.

One of the very few original names that is known matches well with the BOM.

From a previous post I wrote...

http://mayaruins.com/lamanai.html for pics..click on temples

Lamanai http://www.mayabelize.ca/maya/lamanai.shtml for info

Lamanai is one of a very few cities of which we actually know the original name of. Any real signs of civilization show up around 500bc. For those who know Nephite chronology, we know that's 100 years after the groups' transoceanic voyage. So about the right time frame. I couldn't help but try to glean what info I could from the BOM and all I could find out was that the city of Laman was burned.

3 Nephi 9

[10] And behold, the city of Laman, and the city of Josh, and the city of Gad, and the city of Kishkumen, have I caused to be burned with fire,

Well I had to look and found out Lamanai was also burned.

http://www.mesoweb.com/bearc/cmr/20_text.html

That portion of the monument found, which included the feet of the personage depicted, bore evidence of fire damage on the front and sides, manifest in blackening and crazing of the stone and the loss of some areas of carving from spalling. The plaster floor was also calcined in the immediate vicinity of the stela base, and the lower portion of the room wall behind the monument was blackened. Clearly, a fire of considerable intensity was responsible for the breakup of the monument. It also was probably responsible for the destruction of those portions of the carving that remain missing.

[SolarPowered]

In terms of names, there are only 26 letters in the English alphabet and only 5 vowels. No matter what names you come up with, you will find similar sounding names in any given region. I challenge anybody here to come up with 50 viable original names and not have them to close to already existing common names. There simply are not enough sound combinations to allow for that.

I have personal experience that quite vividly demonstrates this. Twenty-five years ago, I was preparing to incorporate a business. The name of a corporation has to be unique within the state. We went through approximately 100 names before we came up with one that wasn't already in use.

[J Green]

Nice try, Sargon, but he's playing his own One Note Samba and is not interested in discordant notes:

"Can't you see the similarities?"

"But what about this problem?"

"Aside from that, can't you see the similarities?"

"But what about this other problem?"

"Aside from those two, can't you see the similarities?"

"And what about this other thing?"

"Come on, see the BIG picture! No, the even BIGGER picture! Aren't there similarities?"

"Well, there aren't that many similarities left . . ."

[sIGH] "You're just not trying!"

Jobim would be proud!

[Russ]

Russ,

If you're a central american expert then you should know that most all the names of central american cities are not the orignal names given by those who made them, but rather names given much later that have no relationship to the actual names given by the people who built them and lived there.

One of the very few original names that is known matches well with the BOM.

From a previous post I wrote...

The city has been rebuilt many times.

Warship, I hope I made it clear that I'm a Central American Google Expert, which is my humorous way of saying I'm no expert at all.

Logic tells me that Central American cities weren't originally named Jerusalem or Moriancumur. Nor Orgath or Argathe...or whatever.

Now, I realize that my logic is an argument from silence (based on limited readings of such things), but I feel obliged to point out that your's is as well.

Your reasoning seems to fall along the lines of: "well, they might have been renamed."

At this point I still see a great many similarities between the cities of Holley's map and I'm wondering why you dont.

[J Green]

I have to admit, Russ' stubborn determination to repeat the mantra (based on a borrowed map he hasn't verified) is etertaning in the same way you get a kick out of the Black Knight mantaining his superiority after every limb has been hacked off.

On the bright side, if we wait long enough, he may call for a draw!

[Russ]

Nice try, Sargon, but he's playing his own One Note Samba and is not interested in discordant notes:

"Can't you see the similarities?"

"But what about this problem?"

"Aside from that, can't you see the similarities?"

"But what about this other problem?"

"Aside from those two, can't you see the similarities?"

"And what about this other thing?"

"Come on, see the BIG picture! No, the even BIGGER picture! Aren't there similarities?"

"Well, there aren't that many similarities left . . ."

[sIGH] "You're just not trying!"

Jobim would be proud!

lol.

Well done.

Indeed, I have a one note samba called: The similarities are striking.

Do you LDS folks have a samba too? If I hum a few bars might it sound something like this?

Never mind the map (even though the cities sound almost the same). We'll find Cumorah. The First Presidency (Watson letter) and the Book of Mormon tell us New York. But we won't dig there. So we'll look in Central America. And when that produces nothing...perhaps Asia. It's a big world and we'll keep looking...and explaining as we go.

This seems to be a one-note samba to me, if you understand where the Gentile hails from.

[SolarPowered]

We'll find Cumorah. The First Presidency (Watson letter) and the Book of Mormon tell us New York.

Call For References. Where, exactly, does "the Book of Mormon tell us New York"?

[J Green]

Never mind the map (even though the cities sound almost the same). We'll find Cumorah. The First Presidency (Watson letter) and the Book of Mormon tell us New York. But we won't dig there. So we'll look in Central America. And when that produces nothing...perhaps Asia. It's a big world and we'll keep looking...and explaining as we go.

This seems to be a one-note samba to me, if you understand where the Gentile hails from.

My samba rules are fairly simple: When Russ changes key, the song's over.

[Russ]

I have to admit, Russ' stubborn determination to repeat the mantra (based on a borrowed map he hasn't verified) is etertaning in the same way you get a kick out of the Black Knight mantaining his superiority after every limb has been hacked off.

On the bright side, if we wait long enough, he may call for a draw!

lol

Draw? Well, hang on. Let me load my six-shooter. Now we'z kin draw, hombre. 10 paces. Ready, go.

You guys do make me smile. Might stick around a bit this time. Maybe not. Dunno.

I don't see the map as literal points of geography. I see the map as striking insofar that Smith (or whoever penned the Book of Mormon) most certainly had in mind the U.S. as the setting for the BoM.

All one has to do is look for 2.23 million sets of bones or steel swords or a vast civilization.

But even that is easily discarded. Who was it? "People underestimate the ability of things to disappear." Nibley? Beck's book? (I think it was.)

In Living Hope's Bible vs. the Book of Mormon, one of them there smart fellas said it's impossible for that many people to up and vanish and leave not a shred of evidence. Especially when we know exactly where to look.

All the Church need do is excavate Cumorah. (The one in New York mentioned in the Watson letter.)

You folks have a nice night.

My samba rules are fairly simple: When Russ changes key, the song's over.

Well, hombre, then for you the fat lady has sung.

Nitey nite.

[SolarPowered]

the Watson letter.

You are aware, I hope, that shortly after Watson sent that letter, he sent another letter stating that he was in error in sending the the letter you refer to, and that the Church has no position regarding the location of the Hill Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

And since you seem to be about to sign off, I would like to point out that you have not answered my Call For References.

[J Green]

CAN'T YOU SEE THE SIMILARITIES?

[Sargon]

lol

Draw? Well, hang on. Let me load my six-shooter. Now we'z kin draw, hombre. 10 paces. Ready, go.

You guys do make me smile. Might stick around a bit this time. Maybe not. Dunno.

I don't see the map as literal points of geography. I see the map as striking insofar that Smith (or whoever penned the Book of Mormon) most certainly had in mind the U.S. as the setting for the BoM.

If they had the U.S. in mind why did they stick with only a very small number of N.E. towns? Surely these illuminati authors were smart fellers, and knew a bit more about U.S. geography than just the small area from which most of their prospective converts would come. Seems pretty dumb for me to write a fictional book that includes names of suburbs around my home and pass it off for real history. Quite a blunder for these otherwise extraordinarily intelligent authors.

All one has to do is look for 2.23 million sets of bones or steel swords or a vast civilization.

Critics like you simply can't make a living without ignoring the vast number of refutations these silly arguments have recieved.

But even that is easily discarded. Who was it? "People underestimate the ability of things to disappear." Nibley? Beck's book? (I think it was.)

In Living Hope's Bible vs. the Book of Mormon, one of them there smart fellas said it's impossible for that many people to up and vanish and leave not a shred of evidence. Especially when we know exactly where to look.

We know exactly where to look? That is news to me. And I thought the original intention of this thread was to debate just that. What we do know however, is that apparently Russ has access to some secret information we do not, and is not sharing with us. Have you translated the sealed portion of the plates and now know the whereabouts of the Nephite lands?

All the Church need do is excavate Cumorah. (The one in New York mentioned in the Watson letter.)

Apparently the church is not so convinced that is where the events took place, since the movie "The Testaments" was filmed in a pretty Meso-American looking setting. The Watson letter was a blunder, and the church has affirmed time and time again that it does not know the location of BoM lands, hence your amusement at the fact that Ammon's mission travels are not traced in the back of our BoM's. But will you be professional and drop the Watson letter issue? Will you be a shining example of class and fair play? We shall see.

You folks have a nice night.

Well, hombre, then for you the fat lady has sung.

Nitey nite.

[erichard]

The text of the BofM makes reference to the following geographic features marked in bold.

...

The land of Zarahemla must be located south of both the hill Cumorah and the narrow neck of land. It must be located north of the Narrow strip of wilderness and be near a river that has its head in this narrow strip and it must be to the north of said head.

I have marked some of the possible choices. Take your choice or propose another that meets the textual criteria in the Americas. We have been told by revelation that the BofM took place on the American continents.

...Larry P

Back on topic:

With Google Earth, one can use placemarks that James Warr made and examine these various models:

Warr's Costa Rica model

Sorenson's Tehuantepec model

Hauck's Tehuantepec model

Priddis' South American model

Here is his page with placemark links:

http://www.mormongeography.com/google.html

Richard

[Russ]

Call For References. Where, exactly, does "the Book of Mormon tell us New York"?

The hill Ramah, where 2.23 million died.

Has it crossed your mind, as it has mine, why the First Presidency doesn't initiate the greatest North American dig of all times?

[Russ]

"Apparently the church is not so convinced that is where the events took place, since the movie "The Testaments" was filmed in a pretty Meso-American looking setting."

Or, could it be as LDS anthropologist Thomas Murphy states, "it never happened anywhere." In other words, it could be that the LDS Church knows nothing will be found at Ramah (Cumorah), even though 2.23 million died there, so in order to "keep the faith" they send teams to unlikely locations?

[Aquilifer]

How do you know?

When was it established and when was it incorporated?

We need an emoticon for banging one's head against the wall. Is this the best you have to offer?

[Chronos]

Russ, start providing your sources or you will be asked to leave.

~Chronos