BofM Hill Cumorah?

[thesometimesaint]

TAK:

When making non-doctrinal statements even Presidents of the Church have the right to their own opinions.

[Russ]

Ill answer for Russ. Since Russ cant or wont.

It doesnt say any were in the text specifically were it is. Argument from silence.

Not at all.

Ramah = Cumorah = where the plates were buried.

And then we rabbit trail off into the two-Cumorah theory and the LGT.

And then we rabbit trail back to Holley's map, and so on, and so on.

The LDS church could easily silence its critics by allowing the Smithsonian to take a peek around New York.

But, as LDS anthropoligist Thomas Murphy states in Bible vs. the Book of Mormon, they know it didn't happen anywhere.

I bet he's right.

P.S. Now that I have over one hundred posts and "move upon the waters" I'm sure you can now see my ability to exegete. (Smile, k? It's a joke.)

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The official web site of the LDS Church (www.lds.org) has a page called PHOTOGRAPHS OF CHURCH HISTORY SITES. The introduction states (my emphasis):

These photographs of important Church history sites portray the lands where early Latter-day Saints walked, where modern prophets have lived and taught, and where many scriptural events took place. To help you better use the photographs in your study, each photograph is accompanied by a short description. The first paragraph following the title of the description explains the setting of the photograph, including important things to look at and often which direction the photographer was facing. Significant scriptural events from that area are then listed, along with scripture references so that you can know where to read more about those events.

There is a link to a picture of the Hill Cumorah in New York. There are scripture references under the photo. One scripture reference is to Mormon 6:6 - "And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni."

The official church website shows a picture of the hill Cumorah in New York. Beneath the picture is a reference to a scripture that "all our people" gathered in the land of Cumorah, where the plates are hidden. The very next verse (7) begins the description of the battle. Where would you place the location of the battle based on this reading? Is the LDS web site wrong?

Can you post a link. I want to see the pictures. I cant find what is described above at LDS.org. THanks

Not at all.

Ramah = Cumorah = where the plates were buried.

And then we rabbit trail off into the two-Cumorah theory and the LGT.

And then we rabbit trail back to Holley's map, and so on, and so on.

Nice try. Cumorah doesnt = New York. I am not able to find any were in any CHurch doctrine that the Cumorah in the BoM is in New York. Perhaps you can find a quote were JS said and this is the Cumorah talked about in the BoM. Just curious.

Russ were is the hill "Ramah" Then. Does the text tell us any thing?

[Daniel Peterson]

No official doctrine today.

A widely, indeed almost universally, assumed idea in the past.

Never official doctrine.

While you can parse all day what "Church doctrine" means or is, do you deny that Church leaders from the time of Joseph Smith to President Hinkley have taught in the past that "the "Hill Cumorah in NY - is the site of the last great BofM battle?

Church leaders have always taught that there was a final battle, as the Book of Mormon describes. They have overwhelmingly assumed that that final battle occurred in New York. There has never been an official doctrine on the topic.

Mormon scholars are free to argue against the notion that the final battle occurred in New York -- in Deseret Book publications, at BYU, in publications from BYU, and in the Ensign -- precisely because there is no official doctrine to that effect.

You can dismiss this as mere "parsing" all you want. But the fact remains that denials of the Atonement, the deity of Christ, the historicity of the New Testament, and the claims of Joseph Smith would, to put it mildly, not be so well received. Those are official doctrines. Nothing about the details of Book of Mormon geography comes close. And, anyway, there's nothing wrong with "parsing." Terminological rigor is a good thing, not a bad thing. If your argument relies for its success upon terminological sloppiness, that doesn't speak well of your argument.

[SolarPowered]

Not at all.

Ramah = Cumorah = where the plates were buried.

And then we rabbit trail off into the two-Cumorah theory and the LGT.

And then we rabbit trail back to Holley's map, and so on, and so on.

The LDS church could easily silence its critics by allowing the Smithsonian to take a peek around New York.

But, as LDS anthropoligist Thomas Murphy states in Bible vs. the Book of Mormon, they know it didn't happen anywhere.

I bet he's right.

You still haven't answered the question. Where, exactly, does "the Book of Mormon tell us New York"? Please quote chapter and verse, and explain how it tells us that the hill in New York is the Hill Cumorah that they are speaking of.

[Doctor Steuss]

Dan, LDS-owned Deseret still offers for sale the Journal of Discources and the Book of Commandments, do they not?

So if you're going to tell me that something being sold by Deseret is good enough to be considered doctrine, well....

They also still offer for sale The Chronicles of Narnia.

[Daniel Peterson]

The LDS church could easily silence its critics by allowing the Smithsonian to take a peek around New York.

Professor John Clark of BYU, writing in the FARMS Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, has already argued that the New York Cumorah is archaeologically clean. There is nothing much there.

This is (very) old news, and has long since been taken into account.

But, as LDS anthropoligist Thomas Murphy states in Bible vs. the Book of Mormon, they know it didn't happen anywhere.

I bet he's right.

Sure. Naturally.

The leaders of the Church are covert unbelievers. That is, they're believers until they're called into the presiding quorums, and then they're let in on . . . The Secret. Bwahahahaha!

Check your tin-foil helmet. The black helicopters are coming.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mor 6:6

6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

I am unawre of were it in the BoM it says that Moroni says and I hid t these plates in the Hill Cumorah. and it is the same Cumorah that my Father Momom hid them in. Help me find it.

[Gervin]

Can you post a link. I want to see the pictures. I cant find what is described above at LDS.org. THanks

Link

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Link

THanks. What a great shot.

[poulsenll]

I see this thread has wandered far and wide.

Just a reminder

The purpose of the OP was to extablish criteria based on the text od the BofM itself for evaluating the various claims about BofM geography with respect to the location of the BofM culture and its central location.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_ge...s_by_name_table

plus a few that are not yet on the list.

Remember always that if a theory does not adhere to the starting assumptions then it must be abandoned or modified. The starting assumption is that the text, irrespective of whether you believe it to be a true historical document, is the only source for geographical information. This was the assumption used by Schlieman to create a geography of the Iliad and discover the location of Troy.

E Richard thanks for the on topic post. Having created the Google tours for several different proposals, how do they stack up versus the textual criteria of the OP. Please stick to this simple criteria and dont wander into the many other reasons why they may or may not be correct.

Even though the thread has wandered, I want to thank all of you for your participation and especially those who have tried to keep it on track.

Larry P

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Where would you place the location of the battle based on this reading? Is the LDS web site wrong?

Ican see why you think this. THe site does seem to point in this direction. I would say the site is wrong or misleading. Now on to more important things. Were in the BoM do we know were Moroni buried the plates? Does it say?

Even though the thread has wandered, I want to thank all of you for your participation and especially those who have tried to keep it on track.

Larry P

I guess I didnt help much. Sorry. I just need to start another thread.

[Argos]

Larry P:

As thread originator, if you want help keeping the thread on track, contact the moderators. Off-topic posts can be deleted or moved.

We're not always around, so don't write to a specific moderator. Just report the post that needs attention.

Argos, Moderator

[SolarPowered]

It would appear that whoever put together that section of the web site made the same mistake as I commented on earlier in this thread. Mormon 6:6, which he quotes, states that Mormon hid up the "the records which had been handed down by our fathers." These are the records that Mormon on several occasions states are so massive that he could not included even the "hundredth part" of them in the Book of Mormon. "[T]hese few plates", that is, that Book of Mormon, he gave to his son Moroni, and did not hide them up in the Hill Cumorah. Moroni then wandered with the plates for 30-odd years before he finally buried them in the hill in New York.

There is nothing in the Book of Mormon to suggest that Moroni buried the Book of Mormon in the same place as his father hid up the records that had been handed down to him.

As has been vividly demonstrated earlier on this thread, people don't read what Mormon 6:6 actually says, and jump to the conclusion that Mormon buried the Book of Mormon in the Hill Cumorah, and then assume that the hill in New York is the Hill Cumorah spoken of in the Book of Mormon. Thus, the Saints early on started calling that hill in New York, "Cumorah", leading to the situation we have today where many members of the Church are under the mistaken assumption that Mormon 6:6 says that the hill in New York is the Hill Cumorah, when it is in fact that case that it does not say that.

In light of the link just provided by Gervin, I take back my characterization of whoever put together the page on the Church web site. That page is simply listing off a number of scriptural references that relate to coming forth of the Book of Mormon. The reference in Mormon 6:6 is clearly to show that Mormon gave the plates to Moroni. The web site makes no inference that the hill in New York is where the battles in the Book of Mormon took place, or that it is where Mormon hid up the records that had been handed down to him.

In my opinion, that page on LDS.org does not support the assertion that the Church's web site claims that the battles in the Book of Mormon took place in New York.

[poulsenll]

THanks. What a great shot.

The Title to the shot says it all.

The angel Moroni directed Joseph Smith to find the gold plates he had buried in this hill.

Larry P

[TAK]

TAK:

When making non-doctrinal statements even Presidents of the Church have the right to their own opinions.

Consider these two quotes ..

In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the â??hill Cumorah.â? (Morm. 6:6.) On July twenty-fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries agoâ??events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation. - Marion G. Romney, â??Americaâ??s Destiny,â? Ensign, Nov 1975, 35

When finished with the record, Moroni was to hide it up in that same Hill Cumorah which was their battlefield. It would come forth in modern times as the Book of Mormon, named after Moroniâ??s father, the historian who compiled it. - Mark E. Petersen, â??The Last Words of Moroni,â? Ensign, Nov 1978, 57

Do you believe that in their minds, Elder's Romney and Petersen were sharing their own opinion or that of what has been taught by church leaders since the days of Joseph Smith?

[poulsenll]

Larry P:

As thread originator, if you want help keeping the thread on track, contact the moderators. Off-topic posts can be deleted or moved.

We're not always around, so don't write to a specific moderator. Just report the post that needs attention.

Argos, Moderator

I dont mind the off topic posts as long as they stay civil. This is an interesting topic for both members and non members be they critics or believers. It invites off topic discussion much of which is repetitive of past topics. In my years of study both in my profession and on the topic of BofM geography, I have always found it interesting, at times amusing, how far people can wander from the topic under discussion in order to inject their personal ideas.

I started this topic to hopefully establish some kind of groundwork to facilitate further discussion on new and different threads.

Larry P

[SolarPowered]

In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the â??hill Cumorah.â? (Morm. 6:6.) On July twenty-fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries agoâ??events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation. - Marion G. Romney, â??Americaâ??s Destiny,â? Ensign, Nov 1975, 35

Do you believe that in their minds, Elder's Romney and Petersen were sharing their own opinion or that of what has been taught by church leaders since the days of Joseph Smith?

Evidently, President Romney was here in error about at least one thing--Morm. 6:6 says no such thing, as I have already twice explained on this thread. And it would appear that his assumption that the final battle of the Jaredites took place there is based on that misreading, so I'll willing to infer that he is therefore incorrect on that point, as well.

[thesometimesaint]

TAK:

This is what the Scripture says.

Mormon 6:6

6. And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

Notice the "save it were these few plates". To bury the plates our Book of Mormon comes from along with the other records would allow the Lamanites the possibility to destroy them. Moroni took those plates with him.

Even Presidents of the Church are entitled to their own opinions, they are also entitled to be wrong, on non-doctrinal subjects. I personally believe the main events took place in MesoAmerico. But alas there is no Official declaration as to the location of BoM lands.

[Daniel Peterson]

Do you believe that in their minds, Elder's Romney and Petersen were sharing their own opinion or that of what has been taught by church leaders since the days of Joseph Smith?

If I may be permitted to answer, I would say that Elders Romney and Petersen were reflecting the virtually universal assumption regarding that New York hill since the early years of the Church. They undoubtedly grew up with it.

But the mere ubiquity of an assumption doesn't demonstrate that assumption to be an official teaching of the Church. It simply demonstrates that the assumption is or was ubiquitous.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I dont mind the off topic posts as long as they stay civil. This is an interesting topic for both members and non members be they critics or believers. It invites off topic discussion much of which is repetitive of past topics. In my years of study both in my profession and on the topic of BofM geography, I have always found it interesting, at times amusing, how far people can wander from the topic under discussion in order to inject their personal ideas.

I started this topic to hopefully establish some kind of groundwork to facilitate further discussion on new and different threads.

Larry P

AWww. I started a new thread just for this stuff. Oh well. I guess we will see what happens then.

[Russ]

That's not clear to me. And I think I would have noticed it.

Further:

If it were an official "Church teaching" that the New York Cumorah is the site of the final battles, I doubt very much that Deseret Book, the Church-owned publisher and bookstore chain, would have published and distributed John Sorenson's An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon, which argues for a Mesoamerican site for those battles. And it's extraordinary unlikely that the Church's official magazine, the Ensign, would have published two substantial articles in which Professor Sorenson laid out his geographical model. And it's virtually inconceivable that FARMS, now the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship, which has for years been an official part of Church-owned Brigham Young University, would be permitted, as it clearly has been, to publish articles and books and to distribute films advocating a Mesoamerican site for those final battles.

Does anybody seriously imagine that Deseret Book would publish and sell volumes arguing against the deity of Christ or advocating gay marriage or questioning the necessity of temple ordinances? Does anybody actually think that the Ensign would carry an article denying the restoration of the priesthood? Is there anyone out there who can conceive of an official unit of Brigham Young University being permitted to argue consistently for the ordination of women or the fraudulence of Joseph Smith's prophetic calling or the impotence of the Atonement?

Dan, did you just recommend Deseret as a legitimate source for things LDS?

[SolarPowered]

Russ, I see that you just posted, and I also see from the tattletales at the bottom of the screen that you're still lurking on this thread.

You have now twice responded to my CFR without actually addressing the question. I take it by your failure to address the question that you are conceding that the Book of Mormon in fact does not say that the Hill Cumorah is in New York?

[Doctor Steuss]

Dan, did you just recommend Deseret as a legitimate source for things LDS?

After purchasing the complete works of William Shakespeare there a couple of months ago (and also, them being the entity through which I special ordered "No Man Knows My History" [i just gotta earn my rewards points]), I think the answer must surely be â??yes.â?

[TAK]

If I may be permitted to answer, I would say that Elders Romney and Petersen were reflecting the virtually universal assumption regarding that New York hill since the early years of the Church. They undoubtedly grew up with it.

But the mere ubiquity of an assumption doesn't demonstrate that assumption to be an official teaching of the Church. It simply demonstrates that the assumption is or was ubiquitous.

Undoubtedly..

They grew up being taught this concept in church. It was a teaching of the Church.

This notion that it was not â??officialâ? is nothing but a Whack-a mole apologetic smoke screen.

Growing up in the Church and as a missionary nor attending BYU were teachings divided in to â??official and â??unofficialâ?.. Not once have I ever heard a General Authority stand in conference as say.. Now I am going to talk about some unofficial doctrines.