"What Women Know"...

[selek]

I was always taught that if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and sounds like a duck than it is probably a duck. If you have a problem with how I perceive the LDS church expects its women to behave that is your issue.

My only issue is your insistence on conflating your perception with reality. As much as you might wish to deny it, they are not necessarily one-and-the-same.

I know that I will teach my daughter to get and education and use it. If she chooses to do otherwise than it is her choice.

And this is no different than what I teach my daughters. It was your extremist assertion that the Church requires a "barefoot and pregnant" standard that was offensive.

Do I think there is room in the church for women who want to work and exercise their talents to the best of their abilities then the answer is yes if you disagree with me then that is your choice.

I don't disagree with you on this point- only on your bigoted bomb-throwing.

[juliann]

IMO the church needs to realize that all women do not and should not have the desire to be Molly Mormons and stay home and raise kids. It is a waste of some talented brains and skills to try to force them into this lifestyle.

I don't know what planet you live on, but "staying home" is considered a luxury by everyone I know who has been in the job market for any extended period of time. It is hardly "Molly Mormon" and here we go with the insults to stay at home moms again. It is always attack the woman regardless of the choice she makes. The more things change the more they stay the same. Check the date on this Ensign article and then get a reality check, LDS women work outside the home at the same rate as non-LDS:

Jan Underwood Pinborough, â??Working Double-Time: The Working Motherâ??s Dilemma,â? Ensign, Mar. 1986, 22

The second message troubles many who work outside the home to help support their families. That message is that women are mothers only when they are at home. Of course, a woman no more stops being a mother when she is at the office than she ceases to be a Latter-day Saint when she is not at church. But some who work outside the home may feel unnecessary guilt, which hinders their ability to enjoy a sense of well-being and convey that feeling to their children. With guilt and apprehension on both sides of the issue, women sometimes become defensive about their choices, perhaps also questioning the wisdom of othersâ?? choices.

Mothers feel the weight of our societyâ??s varied, and often contradictory, expectations. We can never hope to meet them all, nor would we want to. But we can know what the Lord expects of us as women, wives, and mothers. While the precise answer for each of us is an individual one, we do know some general principles.

As mothers, perhaps our most important responsibility toward our children is to love them, to teach them, and to nurture their spiritual and emotional growth. Fortunately, we do not usually bear that responsibility alone, for the Lord gave that privilege to men and women alike. (See D&C 68:25, 28; Moses 5:12.) This, then, is a first priority.

The temporal welfare of the family is another responsibility that men and women share.

The image of Eve helping her husband provide for the temporal needs of the family has been carried down in some form through all cultures. An instance from Church history shows how this helping worked in an earlier, more agrarian culture.

The question of working outside the home is an emotional one for almost all mothers. We feel so deeply the challenge, as well as the blessing of motherhood. Perhaps in no other area of our lives do we want so much to succeed. But only when we feel comfortable with our own choices can we offer wholehearted support to other women. One young mother who worked while her husband finished his university degree reports that she receives this kind of support from her visiting teacher, an older woman. â??Once when I was expressing my frustration with being away from home, she reminded me to be grateful that I have a good job.â?

But it is not always the expectations of others that make the combined load of motherhood and employment become burdensome. More often, the pressure comes from within. â??I always felt I should be the perfect housekeeper,â? admits Linda Cooper, mother of one. Linda tries now to concentrate more on being a happy person. â??Instead of feeling harried and guilty when the house isnâ??t perfectly clean, I try to enjoy our son and make him feel that we love him and are glad heâ??s with us. I try, too, to let my husband know Iâ??m happy with our marriage, rather than concentrating on what we donâ??t have.â?

Perhaps the best way to counter the false messages we receive from the world is by giving each other loving and understanding support. We can believe in each otherâ??applauding each othersâ?? contributions, refraining from judging, and giving empathy and help in our difficulties. This feeling of having a community of supportâ??both from those who work outside the home as well as from those who do notâ??can be one of the greatest blessings of our sisterhood in the gospel.

[ann]

I'm thinking that whenever you come out and say a church leader is wrong sign here, your walking a fine line....

Disagree all you want, but don't go gushing at the mouth and lead others astray.

[selek]

I'm thinking that whenever you come out and say a church leader is wrong sign here, your walking a fine line....

Disagree all you want, but don't go gushing at the mouth and lead others astray.

Especially when you're responding not to what she said, but to what you think she said.

Battlefieldboy's nigh hysterical attack in this thread is deeply illustrative. Like his posts, nearly every bullet point in that agenda letter revolves around reading something into Sister Beck's talk as opposed to what she said.

As I said earlier- it is much more about politics than it is about faith.

[battlefieldboy]

Battlefieldboy's nigh hysterical attack in this thread is deeply illustrative. Like his posts, nearly every bullet point in that agenda letter revolves around reading something into Sister Beck's talk as opposed to what she said.

As I said earlier- it is much more about politics than it is about faith.

Personally I didn't view my original post as hysterical. I just stated that in my family my mother was "attacked" for choosing to work instead of stay at home and take care of us boys. Granted it happened in the 70's but that was my reality no hysterics about it.

I also stated my own personal view that based on Sister Becks talk one could take offense on the presentation of her message. Obviously I wasn't the only one who felt this way as confirmed by the What Women Know petition. I watched General Conference with my wife who is still active and surprise surprise we had differing opinions about Sister Beck's talk.

I saw first hand how members can take this message and use it to judge others (in my case my mother) I saw the hurt and anger she went through trying to stay faithful to a church that made her feel uncomfortable. This is the same woman who supported me on my mission even when she had stopped attending church. I knew how faithful my mother grew up. She had two brothers become mission presidents. When she chose to stop believing it caused family conflict where her active family members kind of wrote us off as people they wanted to associate with. It was sad to see the conflict that my mother dealt with. I will give you that the persecution didn't come from the stake president but it did come from the bishop and relief society president and judging by the responses from this thread many would probably have lined up to throw stones at my mom.

I was not looking for a fight with you Selek, I was just sharing my perspective.

I don't know what planet you live on, but "staying home" is considered a luxury by everyone I know who has been in the job market for any extended period of time. It is hardly "Molly Mormon" and here we go with the insults to stay at home moms again. It is always attack the woman regardless of the choice she makes. The more things change the more they stay the same. Check the date on this Ensign article and then get a reality check, LDS women work outside the home at the same rate as non-LDS:

Juliann... I was also not trying to attack stay at home moms. My wife is a stay at home mom. I was saying that I feel the church should try to be more accommodating to women who want to work even if their financial situation doesn't require them too. A woman should be able to pursue her dreams and aspirations the same as a man if she has the education and desire. That was my point. Personally I love having my wife stay at home with the young ones but if she wanted to pursue a professional career I would be her biggest supporter.

[selek]

Personally I didn't view my original post as hysterical. I just stated that in my family my mother was "attacked" for choosing to work instead of stay at home and take care of us boys. Granted it happened in the 70's but that was my reality no hysterics about it.

I also stated my own personal view that based on Sister Becks talk one could take offense on the presentation of her message. Obviously I wasn't the only one who felt this way as confirmed by the What Women Know petition. I watched General Conference with my wife who is still active and surprise surprise we had differing opinions about Sister Beck's talk.

I saw first hand how members can take this message and use it to judge others (in my case my mother) I saw the hurt and anger she went through trying to stay faithful to a church that made her feel uncomfortable. This is the same woman who supported me on my mission even when she had stopped attending church. I knew how faithful my mother grew up. She had two brothers become mission presidents. When she chose to stop believing it caused family conflict where her active family members kind of wrote us off as people they wanted to associate with. It was sad to see the conflict that my mother dealt with. I will give you that the persecution didn't come from the stake president but it did come from the bishop and relief society president and judging by the responses from this thread many would probably have lined up to throw stones at my mom.

I was not looking for a fight with you Selek, I was just sharing my perspective.

The hysteria to which I referred came in with the throw away lines about "barefoot and pregnant", "Molly Mormons who need to stay home and raise kids" and the like.

You are projecting your resentment over the disgraceful treatment your mother received (or at least your perception of it) onto Sister Beck and the rest of us. That is simply unfair.

I understand your perspective and, I believe, the reasons behind it- but the bomb-throwing is hyper-emotional (or hysterical) and unfair.

[battlefieldboy]

The hysteria to which I referred came in with the throw away lines about "barefoot and pregnant", "Molly Mormons who need to stay home and raise kids" and the like.

You are projecting your resentment over the disgraceful treatment your mother received (or at least your perception of it) onto Sister Beck and the rest of us. That is simply unfair.

I understand your perspective and, I believe, the reasons behind it- but the bomb-throwing is hyper-emotional (or hysterical) and unfair.

point taken....sorry for the bomb throwing

[selek]

point taken....sorry for the bomb throwing

Nyet problem, tavarisch.

As to your mother and her experiences, they greive me.

I hope that she had found peace and happiness outside the Church (since she was unable to find it within).

Whatever decisions she has made- for better or for worse- it sounds like she's done the best she can with what she's had. On the face of it, I can't see any condemnation coming her way from Christ, who judges us all with mercy and understanding.

My only qualifier is that I'm going from your representation of her (and don't know her myself).

If everything you've told us of her experiences is accurate, it will likely be better for her than for those who judged her and found her wanting.

But in the end, all any of us really have to lean upon is Christ's mercy and understanding.

[mbh26]

Sharing housework would be great, but I venture to say that in most LDS homes if you really want to add up the nuts and bolts of who has to do the most work, who gets the least room for mercy during times of sickenss, who gets to spend the most money, and who gets to call the shots, in the eyes of other family members, and who has the upper hand in the relationship and the altogether happier life, the lot will not have fallen upon the the common male.

Oh well, I'm too old to fight this battle over again. I hope some angels have at least kept score on what

went down during my life on earth. I'd be interested to look at some good angel made and error free statistics when sweet death releases me from this bondage that is family life.

[MorningStar]

My friend's husband says he wishes he could stay home and play all day. (This is when he is refusing to acknowledge that being a stay at home mom is hard work.) Kind of funny because he whines if he has to watch their kid for an hour while she goes to work out. *sigh*

Since when is being a mom lowly work anyway? Am I peon if I do laundry and dishes? I mean, I could make my husband do everything when he gets home from work, but that wouldn't be very much fun for either of us because he would be tired from laboring all day and then we wouldn't get to do anything fun together. Yeah, actually. We proved that really sucked when I was on crutches for four months. He was horribly stressed and I was stressed because he was stressed and I actually found myself wanting to do all the things I was previously sick of. The women who wrote that affirmation seem to state that women should work whether they need to or not because the men are more powerful than us if we don't. Whatever. My husband and I are a team. I'm not looking to prove that I can outdo him. We're working toward the same goal.

[solomarineris]

Personally after reading their petition I found nothing offensive. I too was confused by the 2000 stripling warriors but since I view that story as a fairy tale it didn't concern me, but I didn't think it was needed.

In a way I agree with what these women are trying to accomplish. Coming from a family where my mother served 2 tours in Vietnam as a captain and nurse in the Air Force and then came home, got married, had children, and still continued working as a nurse for over 35 years.

I remember her being told she was an "unfit" mother by the RS president back in the late 70's because she chose to work instead of stay home, which was the beginning of the end of her attendance in the church. IMO my mom could work circles around most of the ladies in the church. Not only did she raise 3 boys to be responsible, do house chores, and bake food. She even taught us the gospel but made sure that we also knew that she thought that the church was run by male chauvinists. She did all this and worked 50+ hours a week as a nurse.

IMO the church needs to realize that all women do not and should not have the desire to be Molly Mormons and stay home and raise kids. It is a waste of some talented brains and skills to try to force them into this lifestyle.

I heard Sister Beck's talk and I could see how some might be offended. I see several posts on this site where apologists will state that the church doesn't encourage cookie cutter members and all are encourage to study and make personal decisions regarding church doctrine. Based on the responses in this thread this seems to be a "hot button issue" where the majority of the posters feel that faithful LDS women need to be barefoot and pregnant and run a tight ship at home. If my perceptions are accurate AND if Sister Beck was correct in her talk then maybe women who don't agree do need to take a second look at this church and really decide if it is for them. If my mom were younger and still active I'm sure she would be one of the names on the list but the reality is that she became inactive a long time ago when she figured it out.

Your mother's story is a gallant one. She must be a very brave woman, thanks for sharing with us.

As for you saying;

Personally after reading their petition I found nothing offensive.

I think most readers do realize that. The point is the way this women choose to be heard;

They demonstrate their displeasure of Sister Becks talk in an open & Public way, which Brethren by enlarge shuns and discourages the practice.

But is there any other way for tese women to be heard of?

In their own Church?

PS:

Note the fact that Church is led by Men only, the leadership I mean.

[Buckeye]

If anyone doubts the intent of the authors of this petition (though not necessarily all its signators), the following post is found on exmo:

A few days ago, I posted the following at the Exmormon Yahoo list:

Some of you may find it interesting that a very liberal, very feminist group of Mormon women (some are also "ex" or at least never attend, and some very fringe members) have constructed a response to Beck's talk. I've been involved with this process, and what they have come up with is just

outstanding. It will be posted on a website, and also press releases sent out, etc. We are discussing the option of also submitting it to the Tribune for an Op-Ed piece. They are collecting signatures of supporters, and that list of

signatures will be a permanent part of the website -- and submissions of signatures will be on-going.

********************************

And now I'm posting this here and elsewhere:

I mentioned a few days ago that a wonderful group of women were working on a response to "Sister Beck's" conference talk. Her talk was titled: "What Mothers Know", and in it she basically spoke to mothers only (which blows my

mind), and did a great job of saying things that took the women of the church back 30 years -- let alone guilting them in several areas!. We have put together a beautiful, strong response to her talk, and have been collecting

signatures of support from very close friends prior to launching the website. Yesterday, it was finally finished and launched. The bloggers are already talking about it, and we have collected many more signatures in just a

day.

I mentioned before that I told these women I would take this to my exmormon groups because so many of us have sisters, mothers, and female friends still dealing with all the ways in which the church proscribes their life path for

them. (There is a link to Beck's talk in the body of the text). I know many of you won't be the least bit interested, but I wanted you to see this because I think it's a major "happening" within the church. The woman in

this group who are still very active are taking a big chance.

Both women and men are invited to sign this document if they would like to support what has been declared. A couple of men asked me to add them to the list of signatures when it was ready to launch. You can add it yourself with

a link at the bottom of the text. Other than a couple of references to "church" stuff, this is a manifesto that would appeal to all women. I'm very, very proud to be associated with this effort.

The website is: www.whatwomenknow.org

Again, the link for sending in your name is just above the signatures. Enjoy!

Sue

[Teancum]

It seems to me that the majority, possibly vast majority of posters on this board have been fairly tolerant and have called to task those who are not. And "dismal activity and conversion rate"? Compared to whom?...The church is meant to be challenging, both in it's doctrine, and in regards to it's demand of all of us to be tolerant of each of us, including our leaders. Such a demanding church is not going to ever be popular with the masses, until, possibly, the second coming.

I was quoting someone else's comment about retention and conversion in my response.

[Teancum]

I don't know what planet you live on, but "staying home" is considered a luxury by everyone I know who has been in the job market for any extended period of time. It is hardly "Molly Mormon" and here we go with the insults to stay at home moms again. It is always attack the woman regardless of the choice she makes. The more things change the more they stay the same. Check the date on this Ensign article and then get a reality check, LDS women work outside the home at the same rate as non-LDS:

Jan Underwood Pinborough, â??Working Double-Time: The Working Motherâ??s Dilemma,â? Ensign, Mar. 1986, 22

The problem is that Sister Beck's talk strongly implies that a woman should not work. Ensign, Oct 2007

[Teancum]

Personally I didn't view my original post as hysterical. I just stated that in my family my mother was "attacked" for choosing to work instead of stay at home and take care of us boys. Granted it happened in the 70's but that was my reality no hysterics about it.

I also stated my own personal view that based on Sister Becks talk one could take offense on the presentation of her message. Obviously I wasn't the only one who felt this way as confirmed by the What Women Know petition. I watched General Conference with my wife who is still active and surprise surprise we had differing opinions about Sister Beck's talk.

I saw first hand how members can take this message and use it to judge others (in my case my mother) I saw the hurt and anger she went through trying to stay faithful to a church that made her feel uncomfortable. This is the same woman who supported me on my mission even when she had stopped attending church. I knew how faithful my mother grew up. She had two brothers become mission presidents. When she chose to stop believing it caused family conflict where her active family members kind of wrote us off as people they wanted to associate with. It was sad to see the conflict that my mother dealt with. I will give you that the persecution didn't come from the stake president but it did come from the bishop and relief society president and judging by the responses from this thread many would probably have lined up to throw stones at my mom.

I was not looking for a fight with you Selek, I was just sharing my perspective.

I don't know what planet you live on, but "staying home" is considered a luxury by everyone I know who has been in the job market for any extended period of time. It is hardly "Molly Mormon" and here we go with the insults to stay at home moms again. It is always attack the woman regardless of the choice she makes. The more things change the more they stay the same. Check the date on this Ensign article and then get a reality check, LDS women work outside the home at the same rate as non-LDS:

Juliann... I was also not trying to attack stay at home moms. My wife is a stay at home mom. I was saying that I feel the church should try to be more accommodating to women who want to work even if their financial situation doesn't require them too. A woman should be able to pursue her dreams and aspirations the same as a man if she has the education and desire. That was my point. Personally I love having my wife stay at home with the young ones but if she wanted to pursue a professional career I would be her biggest supporter.

many here see dissenting comments a hysteria and so on. Your remarks were fine and well measured.

[Hammer]

The problem is that Sister Beck's talk strongly implies that a woman should not work. Ensign, Oct 2007

My wife was told, in the first year of our marriage -- before we had any children-- that she was not to work. This was a personal revelation she received. At first, as a struggling student in college, I was taken back. But as I fasted and prayed with her for a comfirmation of this revelation, I received the knowledge that she was not to go out of the home to work.

It was interesting over the next two years the experiences we had with this. We did not completely abide by it and every time we didn't we had bad financial reversals. We lost our first baby by --not miscarrage-- but still birth at 6mo genstation. It cost us everything my wife made at her job plus some.

The next time she sought a job with the job service in our town. She was required to take a state test. She took it and the results were lost. So she took it again. Again they lost the results (we were getting the hint now that the Lord really didn't want her to work) well the 3rd time when they (we think they lost them again) were asked for her results, they said that she failed and would have to take it again. She is smart and a straight A student all through school so failing wasn't an option. We gave up on job service and she tried to just go interviewing for jobs around town.

She was successful with the city government until they found that I also worked there and that eliminated her chance to work there as well.

Well this still wasn't enough to discourage us from trying to beat the Lord on this issue. She tried to work at a steel mill and because she was pretty hot, all she got was oogled and harrased and told indeed she could have the job!!!!

She didn't take that job. Instead she began doing in home babysitting. She and I eventually published some books. But I have always been blessed with employment and other financial blessings that began coming when we finally got the message she wasn't to work outside the home-- to sustain us in our needs and even our wants.

The Lord gives no commandment unto the children of men save he prepares a way for them to accomplish it. I so testify in the name of Jesus Christ.

[juliann]

Juliann... I was also not trying to attack stay at home moms. My wife is a stay at home mom. I was saying that I feel the church should try to be more accommodating to women who want to work even if their financial situation doesn't require them too. A woman should be able to pursue her dreams and aspirations the same as a man if she has the education and desire. That was my point. Personally I love having my wife stay at home with the young ones but if she wanted to pursue a professional career I would be her biggest supporter.

But she would not be able to pursue a professional career without that education....and guess what promotes education? The LDS church. Mormons are in the higher tier of edcuated members, evangelicals are the least educated. Further, the more educated a Mormon is the more likely s/he is to be active. This bucks the statistics in other religions where the opposite happens.

So there is a paradox that is not being addressed here. You are more likely to have more education if you are Mormon and I don't think it needs to be argued that more education is going to make working more productive. What is truly sad is to see a woman working for a pittance when she could be working for a comfortable wage. I don't see that addressed in this petition.

The problem is that Sister Beck's talk strongly implies that a woman should not work. Ensign, Oct 2007

But there are plenty of talks addressed to working mothers, isn't it intellectually dishonest to not even acknowledge that in a petition attacking one woman for just one short talk? Being home and available to your children will always be the default position and I find it ludicrous to find women proclaiming that is not the desire of the vast majority of women no matter what their religious status ....I don't see why the church should have to defend that. Like I said, I just don't know any women who want to work when they have children. It is agonizing when you can't make their special events at school, when they have to stay at school sick, when a job schedule is the most important thing in a household regardless of a child's needs. I can't imagine anything harder than having to leave a helpless baby in the hands of complete strangers with only the hope that s/he is being treated as you would treat her. This is the ideal life? Puullleeezzz! I had only a few years out of the workforce, I was right back in when my husband became ill. I find the pretense that there are hordes of overworked women demanding a right to work ridiculous. I also find the idea that this is a Mormon issue downright dishonest.

[bluebell]

IMO the church needs to realize that all women do not and should not have the desire to be Molly Mormons and stay home and raise kids. It is a waste of some talented brains and skills to try to force them into this lifestyle.

That's probably one of the most sexist, and insulting things that i've ever heard.

Raising kids instead of choosing to work outside the home is a waste of talented brains and skills?

My own mother worked (and is also a nurse and a VERY good one) but she would feel like a failure if her son believed such a thing.

[staccato]

But she would not be able to pursue a professional career without that education....and guess what promotes education? The LDS church. Mormons are in the higher tier of edcuated members, evangelicals are the least educated. Further, the more educated a Mormon is the more likely s/he is to be active. This bucks the statistics in other religions where the opposite happens.

So there is a paradox that is not being addressed here. You are more likely to have more education if you are Mormon and I don't think it needs to be argued that more education is going to make working more productive. What is truly sad is to see a woman working for a pittance when she could be working for a comfortable wage. I don't see that addressed in this petition.

But there are plenty of talks addressed to working mothers, isn't it intellectually dishonest to not even acknowledge that in a petition attacking one woman for just one short talk? Being home and available to your children will always be the default position and I find it ludicrous to find women proclaiming that is not the desire of the vast majority of women no matter what their religious status ....I don't see why the church should have to defend that. Like I said, I just don't know any women who want to work when they have children. It is agonizing when you can't make their special events at school, when they have to stay at school sick, when a job schedule is the most important thing in a household regardless of a child's needs. I can't imagine anything harder than having to leave a helpless baby in the hands of complete strangers with only the hope that s/he is being treated as you would treat her. This is the ideal life? Puullleeezzz! I had only a few years out of the workforce, I was right back in when my husband became ill. I find the pretense that there are hordes of overworked women demanding a right to work ridiculous. I also find the idea that this is a Mormon issue downright dishonest.

I will acknowledge it. I am a working mother and when I heard Sister Beck start to blather about perfectly brushed hair and ironed clothes, I turned on the mute button. That is how I chose to deal with my disagreement with Sister Beck's talk. She lost credibility in my eyes for being able to effectively speak to the needs of a more diverse female group within the church. So I turned her off. While I agree with most of what is in the petition, I can't for the life of me figure out why I should care enough to sign a petition about it. Someone already questioned the purpose. What would such a petition accomplish? Nothing. Therefore, it is a waste of time.

I know what my life needs are, and the needs of my family. I will stick to those as a mother who knows.

[staccato]

That's probably one of the most sexist, and insulting things that i've ever heard.

Raising kids instead of choosing to work outside the home is a waste of talented brains and skills?

My own mother worked (and is also a nurse and a VERY good one) but she would feel like a failure if her son believed such a thing.

It may well be, depending on your field. If you are a genius at scientific research, for instance, and choose instead to go home, change diapers and make applesauce, your skills at scientific research are going to stagnate. You will not have reached your potential within the scientific realm. So in that scenario, you have wasted brains and skills.

[selek]

It may well be, depending on your field. If you are a genius at scientific research, for instance, and choose instead to stay home, change diapers and make applesauce, your skills at scientific research are going to stagnate. You will not have reached your potential within the scientific realm. So in that scenario, you have wasted brains and skills.

Staccato, your statement is charmingly obtuse.

Who are you to determine that scientific research is more valuable than raising "staying home, changing diapers, and making applesauce"? Where would Einstein or Lincoln have wound up they had been thrust into a daycare and into the arms of strangers to form their character and standards?

I'd also like to point out how terribly sexist it is of you to demean the much broader spectrum of work, effort, and intelligence required in a stay-at-home mom.

To paraphrase something I said in another post,

You might spend your days pouring over a microscope or beneath a telescope and discover the wonders of the Universe.

When you hold a bottle for your crying infant at three in the morning- you ARE the wonders of the Universe.

Your fixation on the temporal and transient does not give you the right to demean the choices of others.

Your thirst for the accolades and acceptance of Babylon does not give you the right to sneer at those who choose differently.

To a fool, the learning of the wise is mere folly. Simply because you disagree with the decision that a great many make to stay home with their children does not mean they are wrong.

Feminist ideology has produced an entire generation of women who long for what might have been.

Having been told they "can have it all", they are devastated to learn that they sacrificed their youth, their ambition, and their chance to be mothers in a futile quest to be "one of the boys".

Having been told that they "can do it all"- they are devastated to learn that their children have grown up strangers- that it was daycare workers who stilled sobbing hearts and comforted fears and tears.

And that in their quest to have everything, they missed out on what was truly important to them.

Fight the tide all you like, the era of big-government feminism is ending. Steinem is going the way of all the other dinosaurs- our young women are coming up discontent with the Marxist "sisterhood" ideology. They are turning their backs on the fanatacism of thier mothers and embracing the traditional values of their grandmothers.

They are turning their backs on free love, hatred of men, and if-it-feels-good-do-it.

That's Sister Beck's penultimate sin- she exposed the fact that the Emperor has no clothes.

She robbed an entire generation of smug liberal misanthropes of their illusions.

[Teancum]

My wife was told, in the first year of our marriage -- before we had any children-- that she was not to work. This was a personal revelation she received. At first, as a struggling student in college, I was taken back. But as I fasted and prayed with her for a comfirmation of this revelation, I received the knowledge that she was not to go out of the home to work.

It was interesting over the next two years the experiences we had with this. We did not completely abide by it and every time we didn't we had bad financial reversals. We lost our first baby by --not miscarrage-- but still birth at 6mo genstation. It cost us everything my wife made at her job plus some.

The next time she sought a job with the job service in our town. She was required to take a state test. She took it and the results were lost. So she took it again. Again they lost the results (we were getting the hint now that the Lord really didn't want her to work) well the 3rd time when they (we think they lost them again) were asked for her results, they said that she failed and would have to take it again. She is smart and a straight A student all through school so failing wasn't an option. We gave up on job service and she tried to just go interviewing for jobs around town.

She was successful with the city government until they found that I also worked there and that eliminated her chance to work there as well.

Well this still wasn't enough to discourage us from trying to beat the Lord on this issue. She tried to work at a steel mill and because she was pretty hot, all she got was oogled and harrased and told indeed she could have the job!!!!

She didn't take that job. Instead she began doing in home babysitting. She and I eventually published some books. But I have always been blessed with employment and other financial blessings that began coming when we finally got the message she wasn't to work outside the home-- to sustain us in our needs and even our wants.

The Lord gives no commandment unto the children of men save he prepares a way for them to accomplish it. I so testify in the name of Jesus Christ.

Great for you. Everyone is different and gets different direction. Yours worked for you and others may be different.

I do hope you do not thonk God caused you to lose your child because you wife was working.

[staccato]

Wow. I'm not sure where all of that came from, Selek. My point is that women have all sorts of talents and it is incumbent upon us to develop those talents and not hide them under a bushel. If indeed a woman is a known genius at scientific research (a general example to prove the point that womens talents are unique and diverse) then if she goes home and changes a diaper she is not developing her talent of scientific research, is she?

That was my point. I don't give a flying fig about accolades or babylon or fixations on temporal or transient. You made all of that crap up yourself.

[Teancum]

But there are plenty of talks addressed to working mothers, isn't it intellectually dishonest to not even acknowledge that in a petition attacking one woman for just one short talk? Being home and available to your children will always be the default position and I find it ludicrous to find women proclaiming that is not the desire of the vast majority of women no matter what their religious status ....I don't see why the church should have to defend that. Like I said, I just don't know any women who want to work when they have children. It is agonizing when you can't make their special events at school, when they have to stay at school sick, when a job schedule is the most important thing in a household regardless of a child's needs. I can't imagine anything harder than having to leave a helpless baby in the hands of complete strangers with only the hope that s/he is being treated as you would treat her. This is the ideal life? Puullleeezzz! I had only a few years out of the workforce, I was right back in when my husband became ill. I find the pretense that there are hordes of overworked women demanding a right to work ridiculous. I also find the idea that this is a Mormon issue downright dishonest.

I know a number of women, LDS and non LDS who have kids and choose to work. My wife is one. However she has had the luxury of a job that she controls totally. When our kids were young she worked very early in the AM before they got up. She was always home when the kids were home. She works more now because she wants to. Hey job pays a low amount but it is something she loves. She has not needed to work since I graduates from college. My income has been enough. Her working though has meant some things get spread out amongst the whole family, and some things do not get done at times. Our home while not pig sty at times is could be neater. My wife will readily tell you homemaking is not her most favorite thing to do but she has and does do a lot of it.

I have women working for me who choose to work and have kids.

There are a number of women in my ward who choose to work and have kids.

[Teancum]

Wow. I'm not sure where all of that came from, Selek. My point is that women have all sorts of talents and it is incumbent upon us to develop those talents and not hide them under a bushel. If indeed a woman is a known genius at scientific research (a general example to prove the point that womens talents are unique and diverse) then if she goes home and changes a diaper she is not developing her talent of scientific research, is she?

That was my point. I don't give a flying fig about accolades or babylon or fixations on temporal or transient. You made all of that crap up yourself.

It was Selek's typical hyperbole.