"What Women Know"...

[katherine the great]

I think if I were the Bishop of a woman who signed this, I'd hold a disciplinary council for apostasy.

No you wouldn't.

[MormonMason]

...http://whatwomenknow.org/whatwomenknow/index.html

edited to correct spelling error.

Oh, man, I think I know two of the women on this list. If they are the two I think they are, they were among the biggest lowlives I have ever known, one of them perfectly willing to spend her last food dollars on a cup of Starbuck's coffee rather than feed her own children (several of which have several different fathers). I also noticed an apostate I know about has signed the petition as well. Well, that explains a lot. People who appear not to be living up to the teachings of the Church are upset. That does not surprise me.

Of course, in fairness, I cannot be sure of the kinds of women the others I do not know might be but if some of the ones I noted there are any indication...again, I would not be surprised.

[katherine the great]

I don't know. Speaking ill of the Lord's anointed is a pretty strong testimony killer.

Where were they speaking ill of the Lord's annointed? I didn't read anything like that. They were disagreeing strongly with some parts of her General Conference address. Where is the teaching that we cannot disagree strongly with a General Conference talk?

I will say that I think this petition is silly, but it is not apostasy. Sister Beck was outlining what faithful LDS women are like. These women are saying that they are faithful LDS, but do not fit the description given in Sister Beck's talk, and object to several parts of it. I strongly disagree with what their petition says about the Book of Mormon's story of Helaman's army, but I don't plan to start a petition to object to it.

I welcome other sisters' ideas... we are not lock step... but this "petition" is not the way to go...

The Garden Girl

I agree.

[solomarineris]

What a load of crap. I think if I were the Bishop of a woman who signed this, I'd hold a disciplinary council for apostasy.

Yea why not?

No wonder the church suffers such a dismal activity & conversion spell lately.

[Teancum]

Like it or not, when it gets to the point of soliciting a following it is a big deal. Frankly, I think using the murder rap under the guise of criticizing Sis. Beck was worse than intolerant. And yes...they are making Sis. Beck an offender for a word, that is intolerant and inconsistent with their message of peace and good will toward all women. They lecture on the importance of sharing "mutual imperfections" and then create petitions based on a few words she uttered? I think it is a sad state of affairs for anyone who wants respect for women.

I thought the BoM reference was ludicrous as well.

So let me ask, we have some women you feel that Sister Beck's talk was pretty much a demoralizing talk for women who are not the, well, can I say, Molly Mormon type. I think that did a poor job in some of what they wrote. How would you suggest women who are concerned that Sister Beck's positions are an unhealthy retrenchment of "be a stay out home mom and pop out kids at the cost of everything else" approach voicing their concerns?

I don't know. Speaking ill of the Lord's anointed is a pretty strong testimony killer. And if they're pillars, heaven help the ward when they crumble.

I did not realize Sister Beck was the Lord's anointed. Also, I am not sure they spoke ill of here. Rather they attempted to voice what they did not agree with. Can one disagree and vocalize it without speaking ill?

[Teancum]

Yea why not?

No wonder the church suffers such a dismal activity & conversion spell lately.

You BET!!! So let's boot all the slightest dissenters out and further reduce the numbers!!!!

Here is an idea.....maybe the intolerant rigidity that so many are demonstrating here is why the Church suffers a dismal activity and conversion rate!

[koakaipo]

teacum-I know this wasn't addressed to me but re: what is a gal to do:

I honestly think there's less dramatic ways to do things. I think people individually could have mailed things to the appropriate people-something more personal that would be more humanizing.

I also think writing up a sort of letter with names attached doesn't have to be a confrontational thing either-like I think the petition is heavy handed cause it comes off a bit self righteous to me-the very thing the petition seems to be responding to allegedly.

I think nothing would have been wrong about writing a letter about broadening the context of women's experiences-it could be less polarizing to NOT peg it on Beck too honestly. That's the thing to me-I think Beck isn't really what's getting under people's nerves-it's bigger than Beck's talk or Beck herself for many. And yet that's not being addressed even in the petition.

I think a letter that had more empathy and humor would have been able to bridge differences that I see between the two camps. I think the tone of this petition honestly only brings more drama, cause of how the petition is executed. I'm big on self deprecation and humor to get past differences, and I see such a LACK of both going on in this whole situation!

YIkes, honestly, these differences can be bridge if people just calm down and discuss instead of playing the self righteous card on the other camp....

[charity's child]

I thought the BoM reference was ludicrous as well.

So let me ask, we have some women you feel that Sister Beck's talk was pretty much a demoralizing talk for women who are not the, well, can I say, Molly Mormon type. I think that did a poor job in some of what they wrote. How would you suggest women who are concerned that Sister Beck's positions are an unhealthy retrenchment of "be a stay out home mom and pop out kids at the cost of everything else" approach voicing their concerns?

I did not realize Sister Beck was the Lord's anointed. Also, I am not sure they spoke ill of here. Rather they attempted to voice what they did not agree with. Can one disagree and vocalize it without speaking ill?

Sister Beck has been called and set apart as the General President of the Relief Society. She is our leader. And I felt the tone of their petition was somewhat confrontational. So, yes, I would say they are speaking ill and it is apostatic in character.

[Teancum]

teacum-I know this wasn't addressed to me but re: what is a gal to do:

I honestly think there's less dramatic ways to do things. I think people individually could have mailed things to the appropriate people-something more personal that would be more humanizing.

I also think writing up a sort of letter with names attached doesn't have to be a confrontational thing either-like I think the petition is heavy handed cause it comes off a bit self righteous to me-the very thing the petition seems to be responding to allegedly.

I think nothing would have been wrong about writing a letter about broadening the context of women's experiences-it could be less polarizing to NOT peg it on Beck too honestly. That's the thing to me-I think Beck isn't really what's getting under people's nerves-it's bigger than Beck's talk or Beck herself for many. And yet that's not being addressed even in the petition.

I think a letter that had more empathy and humor would have been able to bridge differences that I see between the two camps. I think the tone of this petition honestly only brings more drama, cause of how the petition is executed. I'm big on self deprecation and humor to get past differences, and I see such a LACK of both going on in this whole situation!

YIkes, honestly, these differences can be bridge if people just calm down and discuss instead of playing the self righteous card on the other camp....

Your thoughts are very reasonable.

[oats]

I agree with everything there minus the comment on the 2000 strippling warriors.

I am also certain that if Pres. Beck had an open mic for a long period of time she would go into details that might agree with the points mentioned in the little manifesto.

But I am confused at the motivation to put in the 2000 strippling warriors comment.

- Was it snuck in to make the people who sign it look ridiculous?

- Was it there to make the signers look naive?

I realize many may not have thought through the statement before signing. I would just hate to be stuck in the situation where my name shows up on that when it includes such a statement.

[Programmer]

This part was inserted by Satan:

We claim the life-affirming powers of spirit, breath, and wisdom, and reject the glorification of violence in all its forms. We are filled with unutterable sadness by the Book of Mormon story of more than 2,000 young soldiers whose mothers teach them that faith in God will preserve them in battles in which they kill other mothers' children. This is not a success story. It is a story of the failure of human relationships and the horrors of war. In a world that has grown increasingly violent, we believe that one of the most important passages in LDS scripture is D&C 98:16: â??Therefore, renounce war and proclaim peace. . . .â?

There view of the 2000 warriors is totally different from what the book of Mormon preaches.... In fact is so far from reality, that I feel they must be reading a different Book of Mormon.

These woman who have signed this thing are in danger of apostacy, and that is a fact.

[harnwolf]

>>I sent them an email as follows:

QUOTE

I think what you are doing is wrong. You claim inspiration for it. I suggest you carefully look to see where that inspiration comes from. Sister Beck spoke the truth. I'm sorry that so many people have been beguiled to sign such a piece of rubbish. You are well on the road to apostasy if you don't repent. You should be glad I'm not your ecclesiastical leader.

Sincerely,

Andrew Miller

I encourage you to also express your distaste with what they're doing by emailing them at : whatwomenknow(AT)gmail.com<<

Though I don't agree with much of their petition, I have a greater distaste of self-righteous judgements...you are not their ecclesiastical leader, know nothing about any of these individuals and the exact road they are pursuing. Prior to making rash, and/or self-righteous judgements of others, I think it's usually best to revisit the mirror and look for the mote in our own eye.

[MorningStar]

They make a point of mentioning some of them have been "partners" for 50 years. I'm assuming they mean some of them are lesbians. If that's the case, their objections to Sis. Beck's talk are just the tip of the iceberg.

[harnwolf]

You BET!!! So let's boot all the slightest dissenters out and further reduce the numbers!!!!

Here is an idea.....maybe the intolerant rigidity that so many are demonstrating here is why the Church suffers a dismal activity and conversion rate!

It seems to me that the majority, possibly vast majority of posters on this board have been fairly tolerant and have called to task those who are not. And "dismal activity and conversion rate"? Compared to whom?...The church is meant to be challenging, both in it's doctrine, and in regards to it's demand of all of us to be tolerant of each of us, including our leaders. Such a demanding church is not going to ever be popular with the masses, until, possibly, the second coming.

[harnwolf]

They make a point of mentioning some of them have been "partners" for 50 years. I'm assuming they mean some of them are lesbians. If that's the case, their objections to Sis. Beck's talk are just the tip of the iceberg.

I assumed used the term "pardners", to mean "equals". I think if they wanted to make a statement about gay rights they would have said so...and FWIW, I believe one of the co-signers is in my ward (I can't say for sure because it could also be a relative, or someone else with the same name), and is neither a lesbian, Satanist, or bra-burning feminist. Nor is she a former member. She seems to be a nice person, too.

[Programmer]

And I'm sorry that some of that editing has happened. Kids should know that bad things happen to people, that fairy tale endings don't happen all that often.

News flash for those ultra-pacificts:

War first started in Heaven. Yep there was a war in Heaven, and Satan and his angels were cast down from Heaven. So ask these people if they thought that was was wrong. Was God wrong in fighting a war to cast Satan and his Angels out of Heaven? Or should God just have 'gotten along' with the Devil? That is the Question those ultra-pacificts should answer. However the truth is they can't answer that question, because Satan is the author of that deception, and he rarely exposes himself for what he really is.

[AmazingDisgrace]

I didn't make the connection of nurturing=cleaning in the talk.

You didn't have to. She explicitly made that connection herself:

"Another word for nurturing is homemaking. Homemaking includes cooking, washing clothes and dishes, and keeping an orderly home. Home is where women have the most power and influence; therefore, Latter-day Saint women should be the best homemakers in the world."

[MorningStar]

I assumed used the term "pardners", to mean "equals". I think if they wanted to make a statement about gay rights they would have said so...and FWIW, I believe one of the co-signers is in my ward (I can't say for sure because it could also be a relative, or someone else with the same name), and is neither a lesbian, Satanist, or bra-burning feminist. Nor is she a former member. She seems to be a nice person, too.

Well, I guess we'll never know what they meant by it, but when people talk about their "partner" around here, it typically means their life partner. They also mentioned something about loving their children no matter what their sexual identity, so that also made it sound like they meant "partner" in the homosexual sense. Maybe I'll e-mail them and ask.

Is there something wrong with bra burning? They're pretty uncomfortable.

[juliann]

I think nothing would have been wrong about writing a letter about broadening the context of women's experiences-it could be less polarizing to NOT peg it on Beck too honestly. That's the thing to me-I think Beck isn't really what's getting under people's nerves-it's bigger than Beck's talk or Beck herself for many. And yet that's not being addressed even in the petition.

This gets back to what I think is the problem. All of this and who do these "feminists" go after? Another woman.

The "apostate!" crap going on here is as tiring and sophomoric as the "false prophet!" crap. Good grief.

[juliann]

Well, I guess we'll never know what they meant by it, but when people talk about their "partner" around here, it typically means their life partner.

I'm pretty sure it is a code word for husband that is used to avoid the inequities inherent in the traditional husband/wife relationship. As is evident here, it is just another example of how they ensure that are only talking to themselves.

[selek]

This gets back to what I think is the problem. All of this and who do these "feminists" go after? Another woman.

The "apostate!" crap going on here is as tiring and sophomoric as the "false prophet!" crap. Good grief.

Personally, I'm convinced that the anti-war posturing in the letter has less to do with the Church than it does with leftist politics- and the "Stripling Warriors" meme is merely a bit of sleight-of-hand to cover political agitation with religious "principle".

Considering the links to known apostates, anti-Mormon agitators, and the pomp of Babylon, I personally think anyone who signs the letter should give serious thought to their own balance between faith and politics........but I'm not ready to start holding disciplinary councils or stacking firewood, either.

[battlefieldboy]

Personally after reading their petition I found nothing offensive. I too was confused by the 2000 stripling warriors but since I view that story as a fairy tale it didn't concern me, but I didn't think it was needed.

In a way I agree with what these women are trying to accomplish. Coming from a family where my mother served 2 tours in Vietnam as a captain and nurse in the Air Force and then came home, got married, had children, and still continued working as a nurse for over 35 years.

I remember her being told she was an "unfit" mother by the RS president back in the late 70's because she chose to work instead of stay home, which was the beginning of the end of her attendance in the church. IMO my mom could work circles around most of the ladies in the church. Not only did she raise 3 boys to be responsible, do house chores, and bake food. She even taught us the gospel but made sure that we also knew that she thought that the church was run by male chauvinists. She did all this and worked 50+ hours a week as a nurse.

IMO the church needs to realize that all women do not and should not have the desire to be Molly Mormons and stay home and raise kids. It is a waste of some talented brains and skills to try to force them into this lifestyle.

I heard Sister Beck's talk and I could see how some might be offended. I see several posts on this site where apologists will state that the church doesn't encourage cookie cutter members and all are encourage to study and make personal decisions regarding church doctrine. Based on the responses in this thread this seems to be a "hot button issue" where the majority of the posters feel that faithful LDS women need to be barefoot and pregnant and run a tight ship at home. If my perceptions are accurate AND if Sister Beck was correct in her talk then maybe women who don't agree do need to take a second look at this church and really decide if it is for them. If my mom were younger and still active I'm sure she would be one of the names on the list but the reality is that she became inactive a long time ago when she figured it out.

[selek]

Based on the responses in this thread this seems to be a "hot button issue" where the majority of the posters feel that faithful LDS women need to be barefoot and pregnant and run a tight ship at home. If my perceptions are accurate AND if Sister Beck was correct in her talk then maybe women who don't agree do need to take a second look at this church and really decide if it is for them. If my mom were younger and still active I'm sure she would be one of the names on the list but the reality is that she became inactive a long time ago when she figured it out.

Don't be a pretentious ***, Battlefieldboy, no matter how reflexive the position- no one here has said anything about Mormon women needing to be barefoot and pregnant.

That's your own bigotry and need to incite shining through.

And don't let your familial inclination toward arrogance and apostacy allow you to project your own prejudices onto us.

Just because your mommy told you so doesn't make it the gospel truth.

[battlefieldboy]

Just because your mommy told you so doesn't make it the gospel truth.

I was always taught that if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and sounds like a duck than it is probably a duck. If you have a problem with how I perceive the LDS church expects its women to behave that is your issue. I know that I will teach my daughter to get and education and use it. If she chooses to do otherwise than it is her choice.

Do I think there is room in the church for women who want to work and exercise their talents to the best of their abilities then the answer is yes if you disagree with me then that is your choice.

[daz2]

Re: BofM war story filling one with sadness and not being a success story.

All wars fill me with sadness (just as all divorces do) and I do not view them as "success" stories. The wars may be justified and right, but I believe they are cause for sadness, not rejoicing.

To me, it is similar to the story recounted in the Talmud that on the day of the parting of the Red Sea, when the Israelites successfully crossed, but the Egyptians were deluged by the water when they tried to cross, God prohibited the angels from singing songs of praise to Him, because "His handwork was drowning." http://www.ou.org/publications/ja/5760spring/legalease.pdf