Can A Mainstream Christian Make It To The Celestial Kingdom

[bluebell]

In our cases, the Lord requires a covenant relationship, and to a certain extent he will tutor us out of our errors as we go along. So for me, the issue is whether we are willing to enter that covenant relationship and abide within it and all that entails.

This is very well stated and outlines a main difference between mainstream Christianities beliefs concerning who is 'saved' and LDS beliefs concerning it.

LDS believe, as is stated, that what matters is the covenant relationship with Christ and that Christ will take the level of relationship we are truly capable of giving Him and work with us to get all the errors out until it is all that He can make it.

MCs seems to believe that a person must have no errors in belief concerning Christ or any aspect of His gospel BEFORE Christ will covenant with them.

well said groove.

[BCSpace]

I haven't read the appropriate section is a while, but my understanding is they CAN enter the celestial kingdom, but CANNOT enter the highest degree of said kingdom.

There is no doctrinal basis whatsoever for that understanding.

However, I am willing to be corrected.

D&C 76:51-52 They have received the testimonoy of Jesus and have been baptised into his Church in the proper way.

D&C 76:54 They are members of the Church of the Firstborn.

Faithful Saints become members of the Church of the Firstborn in eternity (D&C 93: 21-22). GS - Firstborn

D&C 76:57 They are holders of the Melchizedek Preisthood.

D&C 76:58 They are gods. Only one way to become a god (D&C 132).

D&C 76:99-101 Those who are members of other churches (even Christian ones) inherit the Telestial Kingdom.

etc. etc.

First, ladies and gentlemen, it's not a matter of people becoming "LDS" in the next world. LDS is only a distinction which pertains to this dispensation.

That's just Kool-aid. The LDS Church is the earthly branch of the heavenly Church. Same with the Church of Enoch. It's all the same Church. Therefore, that one must become LDS (in this life or the next) to inherit the Celstial Kingdom is a perfectly reasonable way (and probably the only correct way in this dispensation) to say it.

[rhinomelon]

In fact, given that traditional Christian doctrine generally requires the rejection of false doctrine...Rhino's poll question could also apply to traditional Christians.

For example:

"Can a Latter Day Saint make it to the Heaven without rejecting those central doctrines that traditional Christianity has deemed corrupt or apostate?"

Now the shoe is on the other foot. I'd bet that most traditional Christians would answer "no, Mormons can't be saved" to this question.

Yes, the reverse can also apply. But Drew already beat me to it, so I'm just offering up the other side of the equation. And I agree that the poll could be worded better. Like almost everyone else here, I'm just thinking on my feet. Bsix, you might want to look at the polls Drew's already done, and the results thus far. The answer you put into the mouths of "most traditional Christians" is not the correct one, according to the polls.

MCs seems to believe that a person must have no errors in belief concerning Christ or any aspect of His gospel BEFORE Christ will covenant with them.

Some may see it that way, but in general, the principle is simply that one's beliefs should conform to truth as much as possible. Errors in belief have consequences, some of them mild, and some of them severe. When faced with LDS beliefs, which are seen as false on many levels, the cumulative effect of so much error makes it difficult for any traditional Christian to simply shrug their shoulders and act as though it's no big deal.

Traditional Christian doctrine of salvation appears to be based more on hell-avoidance strategies.

Some seem to couch it in those terms quite a bit, but that certainly does no justice to the fulness of the doctrine of salvation in mainstream Christianity. Of course, even those things that are not about "hell avoidance" seem to be read by LDS as only referring to that. For instance, doctrinal correctness is not about "avoiding hell", although that is a related issue. It is primarily about living in truth, conforming one's mind and heart to God's, and being remade in the image of Christ. Of course, focusing on the truth means rejecting error, as Bsix already stated.

In other words, do I have to become LDS (in this life or the next) in order to live in the only heaven worth having?

I don't think the highlighted wording is an accurate qualifier.

You're not a traditional Christian Even the nicest damnation is still damnation.

This is an interesting discussion to watch, keep it up! Just remember that my eternal soul hangs in the balance...

Take care, everyone

[Son]

It is not a matter of what one calls themselves.

There were plenty of Celestial residents before Joseph Smith was led to build and organize people that wanted to take the next step.

If one lives worthy to Christ, and I mean worthy. All else will be added.

Even if you are on a deserted island with no missionaries, bishops, stake presidents or prophets.

God can hear you, find you , and raise you up. He has the ultimate GPS. It is within you......

Son "Latter Day Saint"with no religion to call home......

[Paul Ray]

Even the nicest damnation is still damnation.

What do you think damnation is, rhinomelon?

I'm thinking you'll agree that it's pretty much being limited like a dam limits water in a river.

... so with that idea in my mind I'll now ask you another question:

Who, or what, is it that actually limits us?

I'm wondering if you'll agree that it isn't God who actually limits us.

I believe we limit ourselves by not believing what God has told us.

... and at this point I have accepted some things that you have not accepted.

[Sophocles]

I just can't see LDS doctrine allowing for anyone inheriting Celestial glory while believing that Joseph Smith was a liar. And believing that he was not a liar pretty much makes you LDS. So, I would vote no, mainstream Christians, regardless of their beliefs about--and even relationship with--Jesus Christ, are not going to the CK because of what they believe about Joseph Smith.

This raises a lot of interesting questions, though. How is it that belief in a certain book or a certain person became requisite to exaltation? Will the First-Century Christians, who were baptized by proper authority and everything else, be judged on their opinion of whether Mormonism was true thousands of years later? How can we assume that it will be as obvious to the followers of Jeremiah that Brigham Young was a true prophet as it was to the followers of Brigham Young that Jeremiah was a prophet?

We like to think that it's all about faith in Jesus Christ, but in very real ways it's all about faith in Joseph Smith. There are many, many more people who believe in everything Jesus said and did than believe that Joseph Smith was telling the truth. I guess it all depends on who will be performing the ordinances in the next life. If Peter, James, and John are walking around baptizing people, then there will be droves that believe. But if Joseph Smith has a hand in it (and according to much of the rhetoric around the time of the Restoration, he will) then there will be far fewer who accept.

Now, the best thing to do would be to find a way to take away the messengers as an issue. If God stood up and announced that these are the true prophets, and these are the false ones, and if you want to accept Jesus then this is the line you need to stand in, then everyone who wanted to get into the CK would have a chance. But if it's dependent on which earthly messenger you happened to find compelling, then only Mormons are getting in.

[Drewm777]

I just can't see LDS doctrine allowing for anyone inheriting Celestial glory while believing that Joseph Smith was a liar. And believing that he was not a liar pretty much makes you LDS. So, I would vote no, mainstream Christians, regardless of their beliefs about--and even relationship with--Jesus Christ, are not going to the CK because of what they believe about Joseph Smith.

This raises a lot of interesting questions, though. How is it that belief in a certain book or a certain person became requisite to exaltation? Will the First-Century Christians, who were baptized by proper authority and everything else, be judged on their opinion of whether Mormonism was true thousands of years later? How can we assume that it will be as obvious to the followers of Jeremiah that Brigham Young was a true prophet as it was to the followers of Brigham Young that Jeremiah was a prophet?

We like to think that it's all about faith in Jesus Christ, but in very real ways it's all about faith in Joseph Smith. There are many, many more people who believe in everything Jesus said and did than believe that Joseph Smith was telling the truth. I guess it all depends on who will be performing the ordinances in the next life. If Peter, James, and John are walking around baptizing people, then there will be droves that believe. But if Joseph Smith has a hand in it (and according to much of the rhetoric around the time of the Restoration, he will) then there will be far fewer who accept.

Now, the best thing to do would be to find a way to take away the messengers as an issue. If God stood up and announced that these are the true prophets, and these are the false ones, and if you want to accept Jesus then this is the line you need to stand in, then everyone who wanted to get into the CK would have a chance. But if it's dependent on which earthly messenger you happened to find compelling, then only Mormons are getting in.

I simply couldn't disagree more. I believe you're completely wrong. Salvation is in Jesus, not Joseph Smith or Jeremiah or anyone else.

However, in Peter's day, you well couldn't accept Peter and reject Jesus. You couldn't really believe in Jesus and yet reject Jesus' messenger. The same is true of any time. Today, in LDS understanding, you can't really believe in Jesus and yet reject Joseph Smith or the other way around.

People from other times and places will not be judged by whether they accepted a messenger of the Lord who wasn't ever sent to them! However, we will be judged by what we do with the messengers God sends us.

[Rob Osborn]

Paul Ray,

It actually is part of our doctrine that salvation only comes to believers. Believers are doers meaning that they obey commandments. Here are some relevent scriptures from Alma 11 and Mosiah 27-

40 And he shall come into the aworld to bredeem his people; and he shall ctake upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else.

41 Therefore the wicked remain as though there had been ano redemption made, except it be the loosing of the bands of death; for behold, the day cometh that ball shall rise from the dead and stand before God, and be cjudged according to their works.

24 For, said he, I have repented of my sins, and have been aredeemed of the Lord; behold I am born of the Spirit.

25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be aborn again; yea, bborn of God, cchanged from their carnal and dfallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his esons and daughters;

26 And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in anowise inherit the kingdom of God.

27 I say unto you, unless this be the case, they must be cast off; and this I know, because I was like to be cast off.

So the cause or goal for fallen mankind is to become sons and daughters to Christ and this only happens through the waters of baptism.

[freakin a man]

I voted no but need more information like what doctrines that the EV does not need to reject. Also EV that did not get an opportunity to hear the gospel in mortality but would have accepted it if they had an opportunity do go to the Celestial Kingdom. That is why we should always be careful not to judge as we often don't know who had the opportunity and who did not.

God's house is one of order and not confusion. It seems to me that some basic understanding and acceptance are required. Jesus said that those who reject His servants which includes the prophets it is considered the same as rejecting himself and the Father. So if Joseph Smith was a prophet for example then rejecting him and the mantle that he held then it is considered the same as rejecting Him who gave him that mantle which would be Christ and the Father.

[Paul Ray]

I just can't see LDS doctrine allowing for anyone inheriting Celestial glory while believing that Joseph Smith was a liar. And believing that he was not a liar pretty much makes you LDS. So, I would vote no, mainstream Christians, regardless of their beliefs about--and even relationship with--Jesus Christ, are not going to the CK because of what they believe about Joseph Smith.

This raises a lot of interesting questions, though. How is it that belief in a certain book or a certain person became requisite to exaltation?

When it is belief in a "certain person" who is none other than God, whether God communicates personally or through prophets who write books.

Will the First-Century Christians, who were baptized by proper authority and everything else, be judged on their opinion of whether Mormonism was true thousands of years later?

Yes, with the understanding that Mormonism is in harmony with what they were taught in their day.

How can we assume that it will be as obvious to the followers of Jeremiah that Brigham Young was a true prophet as it was to the followers of Brigham Young that Jeremiah was a prophet?

I don't recommend assuming anything, but the voice of our Shepherd is or at least should be recognized by all who are truly following Him.

We like to think that it's all about faith in Jesus Christ, but in very real ways it's all about faith in Joseph Smith.

Only if we agree Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, Jesus Christ.

There are many, many more people who believe in everything Jesus said and did than believe that Joseph Smith was telling the truth.

How can you believe everything that Jesus said and did while rejecting what Jesus said and did through Joseph Smith?

I guess it all depends on who will be performing the ordinances in the next life. If Peter, James, and John are walking around baptizing people, then there will be droves that believe. But if Joseph Smith has a hand in it (and according to much of the rhetoric around the time of the Restoration, he will) then there will be far fewer who accept.

Maybe. We shall see what we shall see, won't we.

Now, the best thing to do would be to find a way to take away the messengers as an issue. If God stood up and announced that these are the true prophets, and these are the false ones, and if you want to accept Jesus then this is the line you need to stand in, then everyone who wanted to get into the CK would have a chance. But if it's dependent on which earthly messenger you happened to find compelling, then only Mormons are getting in.

Would you believe what someone said who stood up and said he was God?

There are many who reject God because they don't really know God.

[Paul Ray]

Paul Ray,

It actually is part of our doctrine that salvation only comes to believers.

And it's also a part of our doctrine that some people will receive only a limited form of salvation.

Believers are doers meaning that they obey commandments.

Some believe obey some but not all commandments.

So the cause or goal for fallen mankind is to become sons and daughters to Christ and this only happens through the waters of baptism.

Are you confusing salvation with exaltation? There is a difference.

[auteur55]

Sophocles,

I read your post convinced you were an anti trying to pass yourself as LDS. Belief in Joseph Smith as a true prophet does not save us. We are saved only through belief in Jesus Christ and him only. The prophets role has always been to lead us to Christ so that we may be saved. To clear up any confusion you may be experiencing go back and read your Book of Mormon which is consistenly clear that belief only in Christ will lead us to salvation.

As far as the poll is concerned I agree with BC Space. Becoming "LDS" means nothing as God's gospel doesn't belong to one church. What matters is the intents of our heart and where we will be the most comfortable.

The question should be based around what we are most prepared for not what religion we belong to. In the LDS church we have the authority and the ordinances to prepare someone to dwell in the presence of God. Without that cleansing and preparation we would not be comfortable in the Celestial Kingdom. So to reject the principles of baptism, gift of holy ghost, and God's prophets is to, in essence, damn oneself because you are shutting yourself off from further light and knowledge.

I think we will be surprised to find out how God's plan was created to have the most success and lead all his pure-hearted children home to him.

Just my 2.003 cents.

[freakin a man]

Sophocles,

I read your post convinced you were an anti trying to pass yourself as LDS. Belief in Joseph Smith as a true prophet does not save us. We are saved only through belief in Jesus Christ and him only. The prophets role has always been to lead us to Christ so that we may be saved.

I agree to a point. We are saved by Christ's atonement. Not by accepting Moses, Isaiah, Elijiah, Peter, James, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, ect as prophets. However we also accept Christ through accepting Christ's servants and we reject Christ also by rejecting his servants

John 13:20: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me." (see also Matthew 10:40; Luke 9:48; D&C 39:5; D&C 84:36-38, 89; 99:2; 112:20)

Luke 10:16: "He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me."

D&C 1:38: "What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same."

So can one truely accept Christ but reject say Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Moses, or any particular prophet that was called by Christ? The answer is no. To truely accept Christ means to accept Christ's entire program and who he calls. We can't pick and choose those parts of Christ's program we accept and those that we reject.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

rhinomelon:

I had to vote other. As the core concept of the Church is that Jesus is the Christ. That He was crucified on the cross, and was buried, and rose from that graves in three days. That He Lives.

Would a Christian deny the core principles and still make it into the Celestial Kingdom?

I truley enjoy how you think. T shouldhis go with saying it. BUt I share these same thoughts.

[T-Shirt]

D&C 76:99-101 Those who are members of other churches (even Christian ones) inherit the Telestial Kingdom.

BC, I think you may be misreading these verses. In addition, you need to read all the way through verse 103. I think that these verses are speaking of those who are wicked, those who choose a life of sin, but claim, through mere lip service, that they are religious. This includes people of all faiths, including Latter-day Saints. It seems rather clear, to me, that the Terrestrial Kingdom will include good people of many faiths.

T-Shirt

[structurecop]

Anything is possible through Jesus. I think our sharp division of heavenly statuses and locales does not accurately reflect the reality of the afterlife but is rather a teaching tool.

[Rob Osborn]

Paul Ray,

Exaltation and salvation are two separate things. Salvation means to be saved from physical and spiritual death while exaltation only comes to couples who are married eternally.

There is no such thing as a partial salvation. You are either saved or you are not saved. No such thing as being partially saved.

[cjcampbell]

All the scriptures and latter-day prophets say no. You have to accept all the temple ordinances in order to receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom. Refusal to accept these ordinances is tantamount to a rejection of the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Joseph Smith was once asked if only Mormons would receive their exaltation. He replied, "Yes, and not many of them if they do not repent."

"Mainstream" Christian is a misnomer, anyway. There are people who accept varying degrees of Christianity. Acceptance of some Christian principles is a good thing, but one must accept the full doctrine of Christianity as taught by Jesus Christ, including the saving ordinances performed by authorized priesthood holders, in order to be fully a follower of the Savior. This means a rejection of the doctrines, philosophies, and creeds of men.

[BCSpace]

D&C 76:99-101 Those who are members of other churches (even Christian ones) inherit the Telestial Kingdom.

BC, I think you may be misreading these verses.

How so? I think not.

In addition, you need to read all the way through verse 103. I think that these verses are speaking of those who are wicked, those who choose a life of sin, but claim, through mere lip service, that they are religious.

I think it's a conglomeration of both. Unbelievers and the wicked. By adhereing to another faith, one has not done anything at all to advance what they received in their first estate

This includes people of all faiths, including Latter-day Saints.

Sure. One can be LDS and unrepentant wicked. Telestial Kingdom.

It seems rather clear, to me, that the Terrestrial Kingdom will include good people of many faiths.

No indication of that whatsoever. In fact quite the opposite. Notice vs 73-74. No matter what their faith was in life, the gospel still had to be preached to them.

Now this group also includes those who were not valiant in the testimony of Jesus as described for those inheriting the CK.

So either way you slice it, the only possibility for the Terrestial is LDS.

[The Nehor]

I thought Jesus got to decide on everyone. I'm going to let him make the choices. In fact, everyone is going to heaven I've decided. If by the same judgement you mete out you will be judged I'm now a shoo-in.

[aussie]

Hi All:

Reading the Scriptures is usually a good idea before pronouncing judgement on anything like this.

Bolding by me.

1 THE heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell.

2 I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire;

3 Also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son.

4 I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold.

5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

Doctrine and Covenants | Section 137:1 - 10

The Lord decides who does and who doesn't.

Only the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom is restricted to worthy, endowed LDS

1 IN the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

Doctrine and Covenants | Section 131:1 â?? 4

Regards,

aussie

[Son]

Hi All:

Reading the Scriptures is usually a good idea before pronouncing judgement on anything like this.

Bolding by me.

The Lord decides who does and who doesn't.

Only the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom is restricted to worthy, endowed LDS

Regards,

aussie

Marriage can be a metaphor for spiritual marriage to Christ. As well, there is no reason why this is not available in the Celestial.

So Jesus is not in the Highest level of the Celestial?

[rhinomelon]

There are people who accept varying degrees of Christianity. Acceptance of some Christian principles is a good thing, but one must accept the full doctrine of Christianity as taught by Jesus Christ, including the saving ordinances performed by authorized priesthood holders, in order to be fully a follower of the Savior. This means a rejection of the doctrines, philosophies, and creeds of men.

Except for the priesthood/saving ordinances item, the above statement could be (and often is) applied to LDS from the mainstream Christian side of the fence. And yet LDS seem to take great offense at this. I think it is unavoidable that these kinds of statements are made, since believing your beliefs require the rejection or correction of those beliefs that do not agree. And we are obviously dealing with weightier matters in discussions like these.

I also seem to remember a quote from either Joseph Smith or Brigham Young regarding people from other denominations going to be exalted. I think it might have been Drew that posted it somewhere, but I can't remember.

Take care, everyone

[jwhitlock]

Except for the priesthood/saving ordinances item, the above statement could be (and often is) applied to LDS from the mainstream Christian side of the fence. And yet LDS seem to take great offense at this. I think it is unavoidable that these kinds of statements are made, since believing your beliefs require the rejection or correction of those beliefs that do not agree. And we are obviously dealing with weightier matters in discussions like these.

The result of this is that LDS attempt to figure out what "mainstream" Christian beliefs really are. It's hard to find total agreement amongs them. Which branch of Christian thought, Calvinism, reformed Calvinism, fundamentalist, charismatic, evangelical, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, etc., etc., etc. contains all of the doctrine of Christ? Do all these branches have significant amounts of the doctrines and creeds of men mixed in? And how do we determine what is totally of Christ?

Remember, that your comment was made in the context of truly following all of the doctrine of Christ in order to be a follower of Christ. Which is right or most right?

[Stargazer]

I voted No, I'm afraid.

But the nice part about all this, is that from what I understand of Ev (or even Catholic) expectations of Heaven, what amounts to the Terrestrial Kingdom is what they expect to enter as a reward for having accepted Jesus as their personal Savior. I think the only people who will be bitterly disappointed at their eternal reward are the LDS who thought that going to church occasionally and keeping Kosher --err, I mean, keeping the WoW would alone qualify them for the CK. The most surprised, however, will be those who did really bad things who will find themselves in the Telestial Kingdom, which even as the least as a kingdom of Glory, will be something well beyond their wildest expectations.