Can A Mainstream Christian Make It To The Celestial Kingdom

[Zoroaster]

It's not if you understand that the earthly Church and the Heavenly Church are the same Church.

So it seems we disagree in semantics only. I think that's an arguable definition, but it really doesn't make a functional difference. It is interesting how that one different semantic understanding can lead us to describe the requirements for salvation and exaltation in wildly different terms.

Ok, I'm going to take a break from posting on this topic for a while. Because this is just getting ridiculous. I'm posting far too often. I really need to learn to just let things ride for a little while.

[BCSpace]

It's not if you understand that the earthly Church and the Heavenly Church are the same Church.

So it seems we disagree in semantics only. I think that's an arguable definition, but it really doesn't make a functional difference. It is interesting how that one different semantic understanding can lead us to describe the requirements for salvation and exaltation in wildly different terms.

I think what's happening is an effort to sugar-coat the doctrine by making the incorrect and misleading statement you don't have to be LDS to make it to the Celestial Kingdom.

[Paul Ray]

Look if you can't make it into the Celestial Kingdom while rejecting teachings taught by the LDS church then we are all jacked.

Speak for yourself, please. There are many LDS who accept all true LDS teachings they know.

... with the understanding that all true LDS teachings are actually the teachings of God.

I'm a faithful member of the church but I break the commandments all the time and I'm not even close to having a full, perfect understanding of God, or really any significant component of the gospel.

Do you accept the LDS teachings concerning Repentance?

If you do, why be worried?

Our Lord doesn't expect us to be perfect all the time.

He simply expects us to repent when we sin against God.

... and btw, to commit a sin you have to know that you are actually sinning.

Now we believe that progression is eternal.

Yes.

By the time we get to the judgment we still won't have a perfect understanding of all truth correct?

No, not quite correct.

I have a perfect understanding of all the truth that God has revealed to me, personally.

If you have some more truth from God that I have never even heard of at this point, just tell me.

I am always ready to learn more truth from whereever I can find it.

We will still be progressing at that point.

Yes, we will always be progressing in knowledge until we eventually know everything about everything.

If that's the case then when standing for judgment we will understand a lot of truth but we will still hold some mistaken beliefs, grasp some ideas only dimly, and thus be imperfect beings and yet still enter the Celestial Kingdom.

... which is why I put the focus on rejecting truths that God has taught us, either personally or through God's prophets, as the cause for not receiving eternal glory.

It's okay to not know some things as long as we're trying to keep learning.

... and it's even okay to have some mistaken beliefs about some things.

What gets people in trouble is when they reject a true teaching.

If you don't know the truth about something just say you don't know.

Don't reject what is true, or the source of true knowledge, and if you ever do simply repent when you know better.

Thus you can hold mistaken beliefs and feasibly reject some current LDS teachings (which make up only a small percentage of all truth that there is to learn) and yet go the the Celestial Kingdom.

The only way you can reject truth and still receive total salvation is by repenting from your rejection of those truths that you first rejected... otherwise you'll continue to reject those truths without ever changing.

Now it may be true that you can't receive Exaltation until you're a perfected being and thus accept all LDS doctrines, but my understanding is that the Judgment comes before we reach perfection.

A perfect being is a being without any faults, basically, and the only way to become perfect is by accepting our Lord's Atonement and not rejecting what God desires and offers to teach us.

You will never reach perfection on your own... there is no way that is possible.

... even if you have all of eternity to keep trying.

Just accept what God offers without rejecting what God offers, and if you ever do reject God, just repent when you know better.

The only thing that can ever damn us is a rejection of God's offerings.

God doesn't find fault with us for not knowing everything about everything right now.

Please show me where this is incorrect.

Let me or God know if you need more clarification... and preferably, just ask God to help you.

[Son]

A church is a group of people.

Do you agree?

If so, the only true church of Christ is the church with Christ as a member.

Any church without Christ is not his church.

Yes a church is a group of people.

The only true church is the Church where Christ is the head.

Any church that does not acknowledge Christ as the head is not on the right path.

THe Only True Church is the group of people that keep His sayings, or in other words live as He lives.

They may never meet eachother on this plane of existence or may get together from time to time. It is all according to living and keeping His word.

I am a member of no church, due to the fact that I do not keep His sayings. yet.....

[Son]

Even the Bible says otherwise and requires a Church organization. (Ephesians 4:11-14)

In order to keep a knowledge of God and the advent of Christ available throughout history.

The completeness and edification has dwindled over the years, there was a booster shot given when the church was restored, and now the mediocrity has taken root again. So if one can serve God best in a church, then Godspeed to them, if they serve best outside then blessing to them as well.

I have been taught, blessed, baptized and edified. The organization did its part, I must do mine as well.

The organized religions were holding me back, not edifying my walk.

[BCSpace]

I have been taught, blessed, baptized and edified. The organization did its part, I must do mine as well.

You are doomed.

The organized religions were holding me back, not edifying my walk.

It's an understandable sentiment considering that of all the hundreds of religions out there only one can be true or none at all. However, it is a false one.

[fox_goku]

Can a mainstream Christian, a true believer in Christ, get to the Celestial Kingdom? The answer is a most definite yes. The whole purpose of Temple Work is to provide a mechanism and a means for all of God's children to return to him. I don't even understand why this question would be controversial among LDS responders in this stream.

Besides, I think a sincere true believer would eventually embrace the plan of salvation, even if in the next world.

God's plan is NOT a failed plan, wherein most of the people on earth go to Hell, such as in mainstream theology. Rather, it is a plan of success designed to get us, His children, back to Him, based in both justice and mercy.

Ultimately, Mormonism is optimism NOT pessimism.

[Sophocles]

I know everyone responding is doing their best to stay within the parameters of Rhinomelon's original post but there is one element that I don't think Rhino nor anyone else has noticed: the LDS doctrine provides for a rather unique intermediary state between this life and final glory. So, if an Evangelical Christian passes from this life, they are going to have some rather startling evidence directly before them that Joseph Smith was in fact a Prophet. Because, without being too glib about it, Evangelicals and pretty everyone else who is not LDS, are going to open their eyes to find missionaries standing before them saying something like:

"Hi, and welcome to Spirit Prison. We're your neighbors from Paradise and we're with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. We'd like to stop by some time and have a friendly discussion with you about faith; would you happen to be interested?"

Now, imagine somebody who is at all acquainted with LDS doctrine coming to the afterlife with something like that right in their face. They don't after to be a dedicated anti-Mormon, just someone who understands what Evangelical Christianity teaches about the afterlife contrasted with what Mormonism teaches. The conclusion is going to be pretty inescapable, in my humble opinion, that Joseph Smith must have had some kind of 'inside track' on the matter of afterlife.

It's the same principle that lurks behind any irrefutable discovery of some sort of BoM archaeological site. Very few Evangelicals are going to need to have their arms twisted to begin to give serious credence of Mormonism if suddenly an entire Nephite city is discovered and determined beyond reasonable doubt to be Bountiful of BoM fame. Just one city, heck even just one encampment, with solid links to the BoM--no speculative archaeology exclusively by LDS pundits and not seriously credited by non-Mormon experts in the field--would radically change the arguments for and against the LDS Church. At that point, no matter what one thinks about the literary quality of the BoM, one would be confronted squarely with the fact that Joseph Smith somehow acquired knowledge of a culture of people he could not have known about by any ordinary means. His account of how he discovered what he know would suddenly gain new currency, even if we went decades before any further progress were made in finding other BoM sites.

The same principle applies even more resoundingly to Evangelicals passing into the next life and finding themselves in a Mormon version of the same: they are going to know at that juncture that Joseph Smith must have been a prophet on some level, and the vast majority of Evangelicals are at that point going to work on doing whatever 'work' they need to accomplish to qualify for exaltation to the Celestial Kingdom.

My thoughts on this.

This post gets at exactly what I was trying to say earlier. It all depends on how obvious it is in the next life that Joseph Smith is a true prophet. Because that's the hangup for non-Mormon Christians. It's not that they can't quite swallow the resurrection story. It's that they don't believe in the First Vision.

I believe this is the most logical and just conception of how the Spirit World would work. Everyone who winds up in the Spirit prison will have a full understanding of who exactly has the authority to perform the saving ordinances, and the test will be whether they choose to accept Christ, not whether they believe this or that prophet over another one.

The only problem with this scenario is that it creates a loophole that EVs can see and people like McConkie have thus tried to close. I tracted into a Baptist minister once who said that he did not believe the Joseph Smith story, but if it turned out to be true then he would have no problem accepting it in the next life.

If that's the case, then why exercise the faith required to take JS at his word, when we can just play it safe and wait until all the facts are in and we can see everything clearly from the vantage point of Spirit Prison?

That's why McConkie has said things like, people only get one chance to accept the gospel, and those who would not join the church in this life would not join it in the next. If he is right, then it won't be obvious in Spirit Prison that JS was a prophet, and the missionaries who come around will be dismissed just as curtly as they were on earth--by people who want nothing more than to be with Christ for eternity but simply don't find the JS story compelling.

So again, it comes down to what is the true test of mortality? Is it to see if we will accept Jesus Christ, or is it all about which religion we find most compelling?

[LifeOnaPlate]

I say yes.

Anyone can. If they have faith in Christ and are born of water and of the Spirit. When that happens they can surely be saved.

[cjcampbell]

This post gets at exactly what I was trying to say earlier. It all depends on how obvious it is in the next life that Joseph Smith is a true prophet. Because that's the hangup for non-Mormon Christians. It's not that they can't quite swallow the resurrection story. It's that they don't believe in the First Vision.

I believe this is the most logical and just conception of how the Spirit World would work. Everyone who winds up in the Spirit prison will have a full understanding of who exactly has the authority to perform the saving ordinances, and the test will be whether they choose to accept Christ, not whether they believe this or that prophet over another one.

The only problem with this scenario is that it creates a loophole that EVs can see and people like McConkie have thus tried to close. I tracted into a Baptist minister once who said that he did not believe the Joseph Smith story, but if it turned out to be true then he would have no problem accepting it in the next life.

Actually, I have met several EVs who have told me that they would not join the church even if it was proved that Joseph Smith was a prophet. They hate Joseph Smith so much that they would rather go to Hell than to live in any kind of Heaven with him.

If that's the case, then why exercise the faith required to take JS at his word, when we can just play it safe and wait until all the facts are in and we can see everything clearly from the vantage point of Spirit Prison?

That's why McConkie has said things like, people only get one chance to accept the gospel, and those who would not join the church in this life would not join it in the next. If he is right, then it won't be obvious in Spirit Prison that JS was a prophet, and the missionaries who come around will be dismissed just as curtly as they were on earth--by people who want nothing more than to be with Christ for eternity but simply don't find the JS story compelling.

So again, it comes down to what is the true test of mortality? Is it to see if we will accept Jesus Christ, or is it all about which religion we find most compelling?

CFR that we only get one chance. The scriptures say that we will use constant persuasion to get people to accept the gospel and that we should never give up. Nephi continued to work with his brothers even after they were cursed -- that is the example we should follow. There is not one true 'chance.' Those who can abide a celestial law inherit a celestial glory, etc. As Joseph Smith wrote:

The heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell. I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire; also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son. I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold. I saw Father Adam and Abraham, and my father and my mother, my brother, Alvin, that has long since slept, and marvelled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set His hand to gather Israel the second time and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying-

"All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom, for I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts."

And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

-Joseph Smith, Jr., Documentary History of the Church 2:380-381, January 21, 1836

Thus, the only people who enter the celestial kingdom are those able to abide a celestial law: they have to be the sort of person "who would have received it with all their hearts." Those who cannot abide that will not inherit a celestial kingdom, but some lesser glory.

Spirit prison is a school. All that we really know about it is that everyone will be taught the gospel and have an equal opportunity to accept or reject it. The problem with procrastinators is that they do not change -- they are the same people that they were in mortality. The test is not whether they will accept the gospel in the next life, but whether they would have accepted it if fairly presented in this life. Manifestly, many do not, deliberately misrepresenting our beliefs and history even when their errors are pointed out to them. There is no reason to expect such people to accept the gospel in the spirit world, either.

That same association that exists among us here also exists in the spirit world. People who are evil will hang out together. EVs will hang out together. At some point you have to exercise faith. There will be many who cannot do that. There is no guarantee that the gospel will be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt in the spirit world. No scripture teaches that. All the scriptures teach is that everyone will have an equal opportunity to accept or reject the gospel. There is no reason to expect that it will be particularly easier in the spirit world -- that would be unfair to those who had to overcome great obstacles to accept it in mortality.

Suppose, for example, that someone like Hermann Goering accepted the gospel in the spirit world and began teaching as a missionary. Do you think that some might reject the gospel simply because of Goering's mortal past? You know, everyone in the spirit world is aware of our mortal weaknesses and acts. These might become great stumbling blocks to those being taught the gospel there. Some of the great Old Testament patriarchs consorted with prostitutes. Don't you think that some might think this lessens their moral authority to teach? Particularly with those Christians who believe that no one who lived before Jesus Christ is going to Heaven anyway?

We are told that when we are exalted we will have all that God has, including a perfect knowledge of everything that God knows. But only those who are exalted have that promise. Those who live in the spirit world may not even have the memory of the pre-mortal existence restored to them before the final judgment; the veil remains. They may not even have it restored after the final judgment; they have no promise that they will know all things.

Besides, rejection of the gospel on earth deprives you of the privilege of serving while in mortality. This privilege is granted to only a tiny portion of all the people who will ever live on the earth. I believe that this privilege was given to those who, by their valiant testimony in the pre-mortal existence and desire to serve on the earth, made covenants that they would do so. In return for the privilege of hearing the gospel here we made covenants that we would carry it to the rest of the world, do good works, and so forth. Those who hear it here and reject it might indeed by violating sacred promises that they made to God. Not only that, but if they reject it here they will reject it in the spirit world. At best, they will admit some grudging acceptance that will earn them a lesser kingdom, but not a celestial one.

[Sophocles]

CFR that we only get one chance.

"The millions who pass to the spirit world without receiving an opportunity during mortality to hear the truths of salvation will receive their chance subsequent to what men call death."

"Salvation for the dead is the system where under those who would have accepted the gospel in this life had they been permitted to hear it, will have the chance to accept it in the spirit world, and will then be entitled to all the blessings which passed them by in mortality."

Both quotes from BRM in Mormon Doctrine, emphasis mine. I'm not arguing that he's right (BRM said a lot of things) but it's definitely a view that's held by a significant portion of Church members. Missionaries in my mission talked about it all the time, for example, wondering what counts as a chance, how badly did people have to reject us before they were giving up their chance to accept the gospel in the next life, that sort of thing.

Now, I'm not arguing he's right, but if he is, then I would have to vote No to the question of whether non-Mormon Christians can get into the CK. Because BRM seems to be saying that whatever the conversion process is in the Spirit World, it will be very similar to what we find on earth today, and that means becoming a Mormon for all intents and purposes. EVs and other mainstream Christians have already shown in this life that they are very unlikely to do that in significant numbers.

[BCSpace]

Can a mainstream Christian, a true believer in Christ, get to the Celestial Kingdom? The answer is a most definite yes.

The answer is a most definite no and you've shown why....

The whole purpose of Temple Work is to provide a mechanism and a means for all of God's children to return to him.

If said 'mainstream Christian' accepts such work done for him, then he is obviously no longer a 'mainstream Christian'.

I don't even understand why this question would be controversial among LDS responders in this stream.

It's because there are some who are afraid of alienating a potential investigator if we tell them exactly how it is. There are others who don't like the absolute black and white of the gospel and make up explainations to compensate or massage their ears.

[BCSpace]

CFR that we only get one chance.

Alma 12:24

Alma 34:32

Thus, if your opportunity comes in this life and you reject it, you have thrown away eternal life. Obviously, there is another chance in the afterlife but now D&C 76:74 applies. Therefore, you only get one chance at eternal life.

Of course we don't define what a chance consists of. Due to the various weaknesses God grants to man and the various circumstances he lives in as well, I believe it's different for everyone, though the ultimate standard of belief and practice is the same for all.

[Obiwan]

The poll is not clear enough.... Because the answer could go either way, depending on at what point the person is viewing "rejecting" or not, be it here on earth or in heaven.

Ultimately when in heaven all will know the Truth. So, by default the righteous will ultimately reject falsehood by accepting the Truth.

So, I voted yes, but likely should have voted no ultimately.

[Olavarria]

Okay, take two. I already deleted my earlier attempt at a poll (one of the fringe benefits of the spambuster job).

I hope this question is self-explanatory. It's kind of using Drew's idea, just for the other side of the equation. LDS only, please (sorry, flameburns). Can I, as a Protestant, or SteubieU as a Catholic, make it to the Celestial Kingdom without rejecting those beliefs that the LDS church believes are corrupt and/or apostate? In other words, do I have to become LDS (in this life or the next) in order to live in the only heaven worth having?

Take care, everyone

I voted for other. The questian is basically as pointless as asking can a beliving mormon get into the evangelical heaven.

If mormonism is true then why would an ev want to try to enter the CK as an ev? If mormonism is a sham, why would he even care?

[cjcampbell]

"The millions who pass to the spirit world without receiving an opportunity during mortality to hear the truths of salvation will receive their chance subsequent to what men call death."

"Salvation for the dead is the system where under those who would have accepted the gospel in this life had they been permitted to hear it, will have the chance to accept it in the spirit world, and will then be entitled to all the blessings which passed them by in mortality."

Both quotes from BRM in Mormon Doctrine, emphasis mine. I'm not arguing that he's right (BRM said a lot of things) but it's definitely a view that's held by a significant portion of Church members. Missionaries in my mission talked about it all the time, for example, wondering what counts as a chance, how badly did people have to reject us before they were giving up their chance to accept the gospel in the next life, that sort of thing.

Now, I'm not arguing he's right, but if he is, then I would have to vote No to the question of whether non-Mormon Christians can get into the CK. Because BRM seems to be saying that whatever the conversion process is in the Spirit World, it will be very similar to what we find on earth today, and that means becoming a Mormon for all intents and purposes. EVs and other mainstream Christians have already shown in this life that they are very unlikely to do that in significant numbers.

It does not say that they get one chance, except in the sense that our whole mortal and post-mortal spiritual existence constitute a single opportunity to accept the gospel. But chance has nothing to do with it. The fact is, everyone will be taught the complete gospel, whether they want it or not. No doubt, some will think this is 'hell.' Nevertheless, nowhere in there does it say that anyone gets only one chance. All it says is they will be taught and have as much knowledge as anyone else before they are allowed to decide on their own. They will still have to exercise faith to accept it.

[Rob Osborn]

The whole "one chance theory" is just that - a theory. The truth is that people can accept the gospel clear up until resurrection and judgment. Even the rebellious wicked who rejected the gospel in mortality will be given ample second and third and son on opportunities to accept the gospel. Because the gospel is the law of the Celestial kingdom, even the wicked spirits in prison who repent will be able to reap those eternal celestial blessings of eternal life in the Celestial mansions above. Remember also that the book of mormon and the bible and D&C all teach that it is either eternal life or eternal death for all individuals.

[BCSpace]

The whole "one chance theory" is just that - a theory. The truth is that people can accept the gospel clear up until resurrection and judgment. Even the rebellious wicked who rejected the gospel in mortality will be given ample second and third and son on opportunities to accept the gospel. Because the gospel is the law of the Celestial kingdom, even the wicked spirits in prison who repent will be able to reap those eternal celestial blessings of eternal life in the Celestial mansions above. Remember also that the book of mormon and the bible and D&C all teach that it is either eternal life or eternal death for all individuals.

I don't think you can completely square this with D&C 76:74.

I would agree that many chances are given, but the fact is that if you have opportunity in this life to receive it and don't, you will not reap eternal life in the Celestial Kingdom. Hence the "one chance theory" is not a theory, but a fact because of the aforementioned verses in Alma. If the opportunity is presented you, then this life is the time and no other.

[Severian]

Where would Mother Teresa be in all of this? To me she represents the extreme end of the Christian love and service to others spectrum. Her years of assistance and dedication to the poorest of the poor were phenomenal.

[BCSpace]

Where would Mother Teresa be in all of this? To me she represents the extreme end of the Christian love and service to others spectrum. Her years of assistance and dedication to the poorest of the poor were phenomenal.

According to D&C 76:99-101, the Telestial Kingdom.

Unless of course she accepts the gospel in the afterlife in which case you then have to ask if she had opportunity in this life (Terrestial) or not (Celestial).

[cjcampbell]

Where would Mother Teresa be in all of this? To me she represents the extreme end of the Christian love and service to others spectrum. Her years of assistance and dedication to the poorest of the poor were phenomenal.

Mother Teresa will be taught the gospel like everyone else and she will eventually have to choose whether she accepts it. I doubt very much that she had much of an opportunity to hear it in this life.

No one lives such a good life as to merit exaltation, not even Mother Teresa. We are all unprofitable servants. We have all come short of the glory of God. As Nephi wrote, even after all we can do, we are saved by grace, not by our own works. Indeed, relying on our own arm of flesh to save us by our own good works is tantamount to rejection of the atonement of Jesus Christ.

[William James]

Though I am LDS, I believe certain LDS doctrines themselves are corrupt. To the extent that a mainstream Christian rejects LDS errors, the mainstream person will obviously be in the right, not the wrong.

Secondly, I am inclined to view the CK more as a state of enlightenment, rather than a place. Since being enlightened requires becoming aware of and accepting truth, the more truth we accept, the more enlightened and glorified we will be. I do not view the CK as having certain non-subjective checklist requirements which, once met, entitle us to be there.

Thirdly, I believe that everyone or nearly everyone will eventually be "saved" and attain celestial glory. It is mainly a question of when. Mainstream Christians who err generally do so only because of lack of experience and understanding. That will be remedied in the afterlife.

[Severian]

Mother Teresa will be taught the gospel like everyone else and she will eventually have to choose whether she accepts it. I doubt very much that she had much of an opportunity to hear it in this life.

No one lives such a good life as to merit exaltation, not even Mother Teresa. We are all unprofitable servants. We have all come short of the glory of God. As Nephi wrote, even after all we can do, we are saved by grace, not by our own works. Indeed, relying on our own arm of flesh to save us by our own good works is tantamount to rejection of the atonement of Jesus Christ.

I guess, even though I have images of angels flying down to greet her.

[cjcampbell]

I guess, even though I have images of angels flying down to greet her.

Who else would greet Mother Teresa? Who do you think will teach her the gospel?

[BCSpace]

Who else would greet Mother Teresa?

Cherubim and a flaming sword barring the way with Matthew 7:22-23 being quoted in the background?

Hey! It's Mother Teresa. But hey! It's a distinct possibility.

Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu still has to account for her beliefs and change them as well as her noncompliance with the required ordinances at the time of her death. I rather like to think she will recognize the truth and change but one never knows for sure.