Did Jesus Become A God Or Was He Always A God?

[LifeOnaPlate]

John D:

As Doctor Steuss's unequivocal leader, I can assure you, we do assert that not all humans are like you.

Consig- pass the potatos.

[consiglieri]

John D:

As Doctor Steuss's unequivocal leader, I can assure you, we do assert that not all humans are like you.

Hold on there, Bubballooey!

As President of the Secret Society of Cavernous Evil, I have the distinction of being Dr. Steuss's unequivocal leader.

Although I do equivocate from time to time.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Paul D]

If Jesus "became human," then he was not always God.

You're right. A seventh grader could figure it out!

Well, maybe when you get to the seventh grade you'll finally understand. Because taking on a human nature, as Jesus did, did not preclude him from already being God, as Scripture clearly tells us that he was.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Hold on there, Bubballooey!

As President of the Secret Society of Cavernous Evil, I have the distinction of being Dr. Steuss's unequivocal leader.

Although I do equivocate from time to time.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

You know that inner sanctum you have yet to be invited into, Mr. President? Grab your knife and fork, cuz this Life is on a Plate.

[Paul D]

But this is based on a faulty premise. Jesus Himself-sinless- died.

Yeah, so? What about the rest of my questions? Who was God dying for, and how was his death different than Jesus'?

[LifeOnaPlate]

Yeah, so? What about the rest of my questions? Who was God dying for, and how was his death different than Jesus'?

And the point of the thread is: does it really matter so long as the only one we put our faith, allegience, trust, and love into is Jesus the Christ?

[Uncle Dale]

That's all I wanted to know, thank you. Hence, you're no different in your position than I am when it comes to accepting people who need a change of heart about what they believe before they can join a congregation as an active member.

What specifically did you want me to see in that post?

Then you have narrowed the gap between our two positions --- but not to the point of "no different."

I know of very few faith communities where a non-member cannot participate in most of the worship

activities. Some restrict communion to baptized and confirmed members, but even those restrictive

groups generally allow "outsiders" to sing their hymns and place a few dollars in the offering plate.

As for "a change of heart," that is between God and the believer. I am in no position to judge that one

baptismal applicant has been "regenerated," while another is mistaken in thinking they were "born again."

Perhaps an entire congregation -- after considerable prayer and fasting -- might be spiritually qualified to

make such a negative decision. But if they did so, my hope would be that they still would continue to

extend a large amount of fellowship to that rejected person, giving him/her as long as necessary to

experience the "true" change of heart required by the congregation for full membership.

UD

[Bernard Gui]

More specifically, the issue is whether Jesus has always been fully God.

And of course, traditional Christians really do believe God cares what we believe about him. As I've argued elsewhere, he also cares whether we think it's possible he was once a sinner in a past mortal probation.

Let's suppose he were a sinner, which I doubt. Would the atonement as planned and carried forth throughout all creations

for all children not cleanse Him every whit and make Him an exalted

and glorified being? Do you not believe the atonement is total and

complete, or is there some little thing left over after God forgives?

Bernard

[Doctor Steuss]

Yeah, so? What about the rest of my questions? Who was God dying for, and how was his death different than Jesus'?

If you actually cared about the answers, perhaps you would discover them for yourself. The things of G-d rarely occur in sound-bites. Perhaps they do for you, but for me (when I'm in a believing mood) they stretch my mind to its very limits.

Hold on there, Bubballooey!

As President of the Secret Society of Cavernous Evil, I have the distinction of being Dr. Steuss's unequivocal leader.

Although I do equivocate from time to time.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

As the Mohel of said society, I think I'm going to cut and run from this thread.

Edited to add:

In regards to the whole "Creator vs. Creature" thingy. Does not G-d have the power to make such a distinction negligible?

Oh, what sweetness this pen holds

To write of the power as man to god grows.

[Zakuska]

Because that was not the question they were dealing with at the time. Moreover, those at the counsel already knew that Jesus was God.

Correction... the people at the council knew Jesus was the son of God or are you saying Simon Bar Jonas was mistaken...?

The question they where dealing with was wether Greek Christians needed to be circumcised like the Jews Christians. Which is very pertinent... because it shows that a lot of things some Christians thought where important really where not.

Kind of like what you are arguing against.

[Tsuzuki]

Define Tao

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.

The name that can be named is not the eternal name.

The nameless is the beginning of heaven and Earth.

The named is the mother of the ten thousand things.

Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.

Ever desiring, one sees the manifestations.

These two spring from the same source but differ in name; this appears as darkness.

Darkness within darkness.

The gate to all mystery.

...

The Tao is an empty vessel; it is used, but never filled.

Oh, unfathomable source of ten thousand things!

Blunt the sharpness,

Untangle the knot,

Soften the glare,

Merge with dust.

Oh, hidden deep but ever present!

I do not know from whence it comes.

It is the forefather of the gods.

...

The greatest Virtue is to follow Tao and Tao alone.

The Tao is elusive and intangible.

Oh, it is intangible and elusive, and yet within is image.

Oh, it is elusive and intangible, and yet within is form.

Oh, it is dim and dark, and yet within is essence.

This essence is very real, and therein lies faith.

From the very beginning until now its name has never been forgotten.

Thus I perceive the creation.

How do I know the ways of creation?

Because of this.

...

Something mysteriously formed,

Born before heaven and Earth.

In the silence and the void,

Standing alone and unchanging,

Ever present and in motion.

Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.

I do not know its name

Call it Tao.

For lack of a better word, I call it great.

-

Tao Te Ching

and define creature.

I use your definition.

[Zakuska]

Jesus did not become something that he always was. What Jesus did was "become" human for the express reason of redeeming humanity.

Where have I read this before?

Oh yes...

460 The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p122a3p1.htm

[Zakuska]

But this is based on a faulty premise. Jesus Himself-sinless- died.

Atta boy, consig.

I know of lots of Gods who die too...

1) Jesus

2) Pslams 82:6

3) Adam

[Mesenja]

First of all, it is not an esoteric issue. It is a Christological issue that the Bible answers quite clearly in the affirmative: Jesus is God, and has always been God. Second of all, yes, God does care about what we believe about Jesus, given that God is the one responsible for the revelation we have about him. Hence, those rejecting what God has said about Jesus will preclude that person from attaining salvation, even though that same person might believe in someone called "Jesus."

It doesn't matter what we think. What matters is what God thinks, and has revealed. If you reject God's revelation on the matter, and subscribe to a doctrine that is contrary to what God has revealed, then you're toast. You're done. That is, unless God grants you the grace to change your way of thinking before it's eternally too late. And may God grant you that grace.

Paul when did Jesus ever say that he was God the Father?

[Trencher7]

If you reject God's revelation on the matter, and subscribe to a doctrine that is contrary to what God has revealed, then you're toast. You're done. That is, unless God grants you the grace to change your way of thinking before it's eternally too late. And may God grant you that grace.

There you have it. Evan doctrine of salvation by 100% correct doctrine. And they call us legalistic. One wrong thought and God will make us "toast".

[Zakuska]

What I'd like to know is who died and Made Paul D judge, jury, and executioner?

It doesn't matter what we think. What matters is what God thinks, and has revealed. If you reject God's revelation on the matter, and subscribe to a doctrine that is contrary to what God has revealed, then you're toast. You're done. That is, unless God grants you the grace to change your way of thinking before it's eternally too late. And may God grant you that grace.

Did the cannanite woman who came for help with her dieing daughter who's faith saved "subscribe to any doctrines that where contrary to what God had revelead about himself"?

How about the Roman centurian?

Inquiring minds really want to know!?

Yep... Trencher7... The Evan preach a totally different Gospel then that found in the Bible.

Acts 2: 21

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call [* except Mormons and those who don't have 100% correct doctrine] on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

[Uncle Dale]

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.

...

The Tao that sentient beings call "the eternal Tao" is not the Tao...

Uncle "talk about 'he said -- she said'!!" Dale

[Anijen]

First of all, it is not an esoteric issue. It is a Christological issue that the Bible answers quite clearly in the affirmative: Jesus is God, and has always been God. Second of all, yes, God does care about what we believe about Jesus, given that God is the one responsible for the revelation we have about him. Hence, those rejecting what God has said about Jesus will preclude that person from attaining salvation, even though that same person might believe in someone called "Jesus."

It doesn't matter what we think. What matters is what God thinks, and has revealed. If you reject God's revelation on the matter, and subscribe to a doctrine that is contrary to what God has revealed, then you're toast. You're done. That is, unless God grants you the grace to change your way of thinking before it's eternally too late. And may God grant you that grace.

It doesn't matter what we think.

then you write this;

If you reject God's revelation on the matter, and subscribe to a doctrine that is contrary to what God has revealed, then you're toast.

so you go against your own argument it doesn't matter what we think.

messed up is what I think.

I know I did the 10 second prayer (and meant it) when I was 14 now I am a TBM so Im okay according to both views, best of both worlds

[consiglieri]

And the point of the thread is: does it really matter so long as the only one we put our faith, allegience, trust, and love into is Jesus the Christ?

Obviously it matters, because if we put our trust in a Jesus who wasn't always God, then Jesus can't figure out that we mean well, and his grace extends only to those who understand his Christology set forth in the Bible so plainly a seventh grader can figure it out.

Is this really the God that PaulD worships?

A God whose grace extends only to those who agree with PaulD?

In this sense, one could argue that PaulD is the one who administers the grace of God by deciding who agrees with him sufficiently to merit it.

On second thought, maybe I shouldn't be pissing PaulD off.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[LifeOnaPlate]

7th graders?

So the council of Nicea was what, some kind of namby pamby boys club?

I'll see you at the next meeting, consig!

Regards!

[T-Shirt]

I would be interested to know what scriptures the evangelicals consider the strongest in making their case of Jesus having always been God. I think I am pretty much aware of most of them, but I am unaware of any that make a very strong case.

Psalm 93:2 seems to indicate that His throne was set up at a certain place in time. "Owlam", the word translated as, "everlasting" or "eternal" simply means "a vanishing point" or "time out of mind". In other words, everlasting or eternal does not necessarily mean that there was no beginning, but rather that a beginning occurred at a time beyond what we can see or know.

2 Samuel 7:22-24 is also very interesting. It very clearly states that God became God:

22 Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

23 And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nations and their gods?

24 For thou hast confirmed to thyself thy people Israel to be a people unto thee for ever: and thou, LORD, art become their God.

Regards,

T-Shirt

[Programmer]

... If not, why not? They believe the same thing about Jesus that you apparently do.

The number of posts that is listed under your avatar shows that you are relatively new around these parts. Therefore perhaps we can excuse your ignorance in mocking our good friend Uncle Dale. You may do it once, but I wouldn't try to do it again.

[Paul D]

And the point of the thread is: does it really matter so long as the only one we put our faith, allegience, trust, and love into is Jesus the Christ?

It matters if one places their faith, allegiance, trust, and love in the wrong Jesus, yes. Otherwise, why would Jesus warn about a time to come when many would come in his name (Matt. 24:5), and "mislead many"? It is because not all Jesus' are the real thing. There are many false ones. And the person who gets ahold of the wrong Jesus is destined to be deceived, perhaps all the way to the abyss. So yes, it does matter a whole lot.

[Paul D]

Then you have narrowed the gap between our two positions --- but not to the point of "no different."

I know of very few faith communities where a non-member cannot participate in most of the worship

activities. Some restrict communion to baptized and confirmed members, but even those restrictive

groups generally allow "outsiders" to sing their hymns and place a few dollars in the offering plate.

No one said that they couldn't participate in the worship service. The exclusion comes into play when you mentioned have them join the congregation without renouncing their false views of who Jesus was.

As for "a change of heart," that is between God and the believer. I am in no position to judge that one

baptismal applicant has been "regenerated," while another is mistaken in thinking they were "born again."

What? You cannot ask a few basic Bible-related questions, starting with what they believe about Jesus?

Perhaps an entire congregation -- after considerable prayer and fasting -- might be spiritually qualified to

make such a negative decision. But if they did so, my hope would be that they still would continue to

extend a large amount of fellowship to that rejected person, giving him/her as long as necessary to

experience the "true" change of heart required by the congregation for full membership.

UD

Again, no one saying anything about excluding them from them wanting to participate in a worship service. The exclusion is specifically in reference to active membership. My apologies is that has not been perfectly clear to you.

[The Nehor]

The Tao that sentient beings call "the eternal Tao" is not the Tao...

Uncle "talk about 'he said -- she said'!!" Dale

I wear the Tao, the Tao does not wear me.