Did Jesus Become A God Or Was He Always A God?

[consiglieri]

The person who rejects God's revelation is already condemned (Jn. 3:18). So, it's probably best to at least pay attention to those who know what God has said on the matter, as they attempt to warn you of the consequences, than to merely "condemn" them for what they're saying, and then use a tenuous excuse as the reason one couldn't understand 7th grade language (which is about the level of the Bible's writings).

The Bible uses 7th grade language?

I suppose that is why people who have gone to graduate school are always arguing about what it means.

We need more 7th grade theology professors, that's what I say! Perhaps the 7th graders can agree on principles of Bible interpretation.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

Nope.

That settles it then, doesn't it?

I'm a five-year old boy who cannot comprehend such Christology, and so I cannot sing the hymn.

I'm a mentally challenged adult who cannot comprehend much theology at all, and so I am rejected.

I'm an elderly person on the verge of senility and can barely remember who Jesus is. I am rejected.

And these judgements you offer us as the Gospel of Jesus Christ in action?

Surely there are barking dogs who neither enter the Master's house, nor do they allow others to enter.

Dale R. Broadhurst

Hilo, Hawaii

On the bright side, you are always welcome in my home ward, Uncle Dale. And you can sing and pray and participate with all the rest of us recalitrant heterodox miscreants.

I'll even let you sit by me in the pew.

Just not too close, okay?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Paul D]

Heres the problem you've got Paul D... When God created Adam he wasn't "corrupt" or "fallen" as the verses you site indcate. But he was in the very Image of God.

Sorry, but if that's your rationale, then I don't have a problem, given that I've never advocated that when God created Adam that He created him "corrupt" or "fallen." Adam was corrupted and fell when he rebelled against God. That's my position. Hopefully you will respect it from here on as we discuss this.

[Zakuska]

I have read it. God is not a respecter of persons in the sense that He doesn't respect who or what you are in your station in life. In other words, you might be the President of the United States, yet that status will not gain you brownie points with God.

Correct... nor does it matter if you are an Israelite by Blood or by Adoption.

But what does the verse say that matters...

"A persons works".

Thats what scores us brownie points with God.

No, what matters with God in becoming a Christian is what the person does with His Son. And if a person has not heard anything, that does not absolve him of his guilt as as sinner, since all have sinned, bar none. Hence, God is always fair and just, and not a respecter of persons, and will grant Chi the rice farmer exactly what he deserves, as He grants all unrepentant sinners what they deserve: a one-way ticket to hell. Now, some my bristle over such a notion, but God does not owe anyone anything, and for Him to do such is once again fair and just, and no one who knows what God has revealed on the matter will question it.

According to the verse Chi the rice farmer is acceptable to God because of his works. Paul agrees.

Romans 2

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Chi the rice farmer is a Gentile who has never heard of Christ, but he shows the law written in his heart by his actions. He is Just before God.

[Uncle Dale]

On the bright side, you are always welcome in my home ward, Uncle Dale. And you can sing and pray and participate with all the rest of us recalitrant heterodox miscreants.

I'll even let you sit by me in the pew.

Just not too close, okay?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

God bless the Mormons -- at least they share our Master's love without restriction!

UD

[consiglieri]

No, what matters with God in becoming a Christian is what the person does with His Son. And if a person has not heard anything, that does not absolve him of his guilt as as sinner, since all have sinned, bar none. Hence, God is always fair and just, and not a respecter of persons, and will grant Chi the rice farmer exactly what he deserves, as He grants all unrepentant sinners what they deserve: a one-way ticket to hell. Now, some my bristle over such a notion, but God does not owe anyone anything, and for Him to do such is once again fair and just, and no one who knows what God has revealed on the matter will question it.

Wow! This just gets better and better!

So your God is such a non-respecter of persons that he will condemn people to hell for never hearing about Jesus?

Your God truly is an awesome God!

But when you get to heaven, you may want to take a close look at his feet . . . you know, just to see if they're cloven or anything.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

Sorry, but if that's your rationale, then I don't have a problem, given that I've never advocated that when God created Adam that He created him "corrupt" or "fallen." Adam was corrupted and fell when he rebelled against God. That's my position. Hopefully you will respect it from here on as we discuss this.

Do you see a difference between respecting a person's religious belief and condemning them to hell over it?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Paul D]

Nope.

That settles it then, doesn't it?

Yes. Correct belief about Jesus does settle it.

I'm a five-year old boy who cannot comprehend such Christology, and so I cannot sing the hymn.

Oh, you can sing it if you're five, probably because you don't know what you're singing, and most people aren't paying much attention to you beyond that they think you're just cute a button.

I'm a mentally challenged adult who cannot comprehend much theology at all, and so I am rejected.

No, you're rejected for making a mentally coherent decision to reject what the Bible says.

I'm an elderly person on the verge of senility and can barely remember who Jesus is. I am rejected.

No, you're rejected because you're an elderly person who is quite sane, and have chosen to reject God's revelation about Jesus.

And these judgements you offer us as the Gospel of Jesus Christ in action?

Yes sir, it certainly is. That's why Jesus told his disciples to beware of false prophets and teachers, because those types of people had a detrimental effect upon everyone else.

Surely there are barking dogs who neither enter the Master's house, nor do they allow others to enter.

Dale R. Broadhurst

Hilo, Hawaii

Well, tis better to be a barking dog that keeps the wolves away, than a mealy-mouthed shepherd who allows just whatever in among the sheep, and then has the flock torn asunder, don't you think?

By the way, you didn't answer my question: You do have Wiccans come join, sing, and give offerings in your church as regular members, don't you? If not, why not? They believe the same thing about Jesus that you apparently do.

[Zakuska]

Sorry, but if that's your rationale, then I don't have a problem, given that I've never advocated that when God created Adam that He created him "corrupt" or "fallen." Adam was corrupted and fell when he rebelled against God. That's my position. Hopefully you will respect it from here on as we discuss this.

Yet you maintain this unbridgable... even by almighty God himself... chasm... creature vs creator... dictum... ?

It makes reason stare.

[Paul D]

The Bible uses 7th grade language?

The point is, the Bible was not written in technical language whereby a person could not understand it.

I suppose that is why people who have gone to graduate school are always arguing about what it means.

Actually, it's not the simplicity of the biblical language that's the problem. It's when certain men choose to ignore what the Bible does say, and then replace it with worldly philosophical notions, that's when the problems begin.

We need more 7th grade theology professors, that's what I say! Perhaps the 7th graders can agree on principles of Bible interpretation.

I agree. We can start with the principles of grammar and history, and seek to discover what the author has said, instead of imposing our beliefs upon the author to make him say that which he never intended.

On the bright side, you are always welcome in my home ward, Uncle Dale. And you can sing and pray and participate with all the rest of us recalitrant heterodox miscreants.

I'll even let you sit by me in the pew.

Just not too close, okay?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Well, let me ask you, like I asked Dale: Do you have Wiccans come join, sing, and give offerings in your church as regular members? If not, why not?

[Paul D]

Yet you maintain this unbridgable... even by almighty God himself... chasm... creature vs creator... dictum... ?

It makes reason stare.

What does rebutting whatever notion you were trying to attribute to me about Adam have to do with reality that there is both an ontological and essential difference between the Creator and the creature?

[Doctor Steuss]

By the way, you didn't answer my question: You do have Wiccans come join, sing, and give offerings in your church as regular members, don't you? If not, why not? They believe the same thing about Jesus that you apparently do.

If they wanted to come and join us in a spirit of fellowship, friendship and brotherly love, they would be welcome to. I'm sure Uncle Dale feels the same.

Christ probably feels the same too (unless He never thought we would have Wiccans for neighbors).

He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

[moreholinessgiveme]

In another thread, much has been made over a doctrinal difference between LDS and Evangelicals as to whether Jesus became a God at some point in the pre-mortal existence (LDS) or whether Jesus has always been God (Evangelical).

My question is who actually thinks God cares about what we believe in this regard, and whether God will actually grant or deny salvation based upon so esoteric a theological issue.

Are there any on this board who think I will go to hell for thinking Jesus has not always been God, but did become God at some time prior to the creation of this earth?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I'm LDS.

I actually think God does care.

It does matter what we believe. God wants us to believe in Him as He actually is, not based-upon popular opinion or untruths.

Jesus taught:

John 8: 32

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Part of that "truth" is a correct understanding of God and a correct understanding of His character and attributes.

If we have faith in a God that we believe to be a Spirit (no tangible body) -- and God is actually a Being with a Body and Spirit (like us) - then we are not placing our faith in God as He actually is, but God as we think He is. The distinction IS important. Because if we say we want to become like God, we'd better know what and who we are becoming like.

Understanding that Jesus was God BEFORE coming to earth is important because it completes our picture of Him. It allows us to have faith in Him as He actually IS and WAS. To not believe that He had the status of Godhood BEFORE coming to earth (before condescending) takes away from appreciating just how loving a thing He did do for us. He condescended. He was a God, but He put all of that "at risk" in order to help bring us back to Father. He could have failed in His mission -- but praise be to God -- he did not fail. He overcame -- and paved the way back to Father by so doing.

If we do not believe / understand that He was a God before coming to earth -- He Himself will want to correct this error in our thinking. And I personally believe that you cannot come unto Him without this misconception being corrected by Him. He is a God of Truth and requires us to have a correct view of Him the closer we get to seeing Him in person.

[Zakuska]

Wow! This just gets better and better!

So your God is such a non-respecter of persons that he will condemn people to hell for never hearing about Jesus?

Your God truly is an awesome God!

But when you get to heaven, you may want to take a close look at his feet . . . you know, just to see if they're cloven or anything.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Tell me about it... Especially since...

"All [mankind] Shall be made alive in Christ"

[Bsix]

My search of the major Bible versions do not show that the term "fully God" is found anywhere.

I suspect that "fully God" is a traditional Christian dogma that is more a creedal invention (both the phrase and the concept) rather than actual direct Bible teaching.

In essence, the critics of Mormonism are condemning us for our failure to accept something that is not Biblical.

Regards,

Six

[Zakuska]

I'm LDS.

I actually think God does care.

It does matter what we believe. God wants us to believe in Him as He actually is, not based-upon popular opinion or untruths.

Jesus taught:

John 8: 32

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Part of that "truth" is a correct understanding of God and a correct understanding of His character and attributes.

If we have faith in a God that we believe to be a Spirit (no tangible body) -- and God is actually a Being with a Body and Spirit (like us) - then we are not placing our faith in God as He actually is, but God as we think He is. The distinction IS important. Because if we say we want to become like God, we'd better know what and who we are becoming like.

Understanding that Jesus was God BEFORE coming to earth is important because it completes our picture of Him. It allows us to have faith in Him as He actually IS and WAS. To not believe that He had the status of Godhood BEFORE coming to earth (before condescending) takes away from appreciating just how loving a thing He did do for us. He condescended. He was a God, but He put all of that "at risk" in order to help bring us back to Father. He could have failed in His mission -- but praise be to God -- he did not fail. He overcame -- and paved the way back to Father by so doing.

If we do not believe / understand that He was a God before coming to earth -- He Himself will want to correct this error in our thinking. And I personally believe that you cannot come unto Him without this misconception being corrected by Him. He is a God of Truth and requires us to have a correct view of Him the closer we get to seeing Him in person.

Im sorry... I have to disagree to a point here... Not even the Apostles would fain to Know that..

1 John 3

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

[Trencher7]

No, we are not. The Bible makes it quite clear that there are those that do not possess the Spirit of God, which is a necessary quality in identifying those who belong to God (Rom. 8:9), and those that belong to the Devil (1 Jn. 3:10).

And Jesus makes it quite clear that who your literal father is does not really matter if your works are of the devil. The literal descendants of Abraham were told by Jesus that their real father was the devil. Jesus told them that if they were Abraham's children they would have done the works of Abraham. According to your logic they really weren't descendants of Abraham (which they were). So we still need to be "adopted", even though we are literal offspring.

[Uncle Dale]

By the way, you didn't answer my question: You do have Wiccans come join, sing, and give offerings

in your church as regular members, don't you? If not, why not? They believe the same thing about

Jesus that you apparently do.

If a Wiccan (or a group of them) came to my house, or to some gathering where I was present, I

would render them the same acceptance that Jesus rendered unto Samaritans and Gentiles -- no more

and no less.

The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints currently has no chapel in the town where

I live, so I am not likely to meet such "others" outside of home worship services. Anybody who has an

interest in the "good news" of Jesus is welcome to come and participate in my home, so long as they

are not a purposefully disruptive influence upon the Jesus-followers there gathered for study/worship.

I have no idea whether each and every Wiccan believes exactly the same things about Jesus -- or

whether there are differences between them, and that perhaps some might share enough common

ground with the biblical faith to dialogue upon, and ponder the contents of its scriptures.

Who knows -- I might thus encounter a Wiccan who was actually among John Calvin's "Elect," and

fore-ordained from all eternity to a place in the Kingdom of God.

UD

[karl61]

The point is, the Bible was not written in technical language whereby a person could not understand it.

Actually, it's not the simplicity of the biblical language that's the problem. It's when certain men choose to ignore what the Bible does say, and then replace it with worldly philosophical notions, that's when the problems begin.

I agree. We can start with the principles of grammar and history, and seek to discover what the author has said, instead of imposing our beliefs upon the author to make him say that which he never intended.

Well, let me ask you, like I asked Dale: Do you have Wiccans come join, sing, and give offerings in your church as regular members? If not, why not?

Speaking on other types of Worship:

LEVITICUS

CHAPTER ONE

Sacrifices of animals without blemish made as an atonement for sinsâ??Burnt offerings are a sweet savour unto the Lord.

1 And the LORD acalled unto bMoses, and spake unto him out of the ctabernacle of the congregation, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.

3 If his offering be a aburnt bsacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male cwithout dblemish: he shall offer it of his own evoluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.

4 And he shall put his ahand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be baccepted for him to make catonement for him.

5 And he shall kill the abullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaronâ??s sons, shall bring the blood, and bsprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

6 And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces.

7 And the sons of aAaron the priest shall put fire upon the altar, and lay the wood in border upon the fire:

8 And the priests, Aaronâ??s sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat, in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar:

9 But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the apriest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a bsweet savour unto the LORD.

10

[moreholinessgiveme]

Im sorry... I have to disagree to a point here... Not even the Apostles would fain to Know that..

1 John 3

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

The Apostles would not fain to know what exactly?

[LifeOnaPlate]

Yes, there is a compelling reason: it called, God's Word has revealed as much about the person of Jesus. He is God Almighty. Those rejecting such revelation, and set out on their own path are destined to be judged by the One they ultimately rejected.

Put simply, someone who believes what God has revealed in the Bible about Jesus foremost, and then what Jesus revealed about what is necessary for a person to become a Christian (John 3:1-.

I wouldn't say this defines a traditional Christian by any stretch, seeng as how it requires one to have access to a canonical Bible compliled centuries after Christ lived in mortality. I would say this is a traditional Biblicist.

[Tsuzuki]

What does rebutting whatever notion you were trying to attribute to me about Adam have to do with reality that there is both an ontological and essential difference between the Creator and the creature?

And that difference is...?

[Trencher7]

More specifically, the issue is whether Jesus has always been fully God.

And of course, traditional Christians really do believe God cares what we believe about him. As I've argued elsewhere, he also cares whether we think it's possible he was once a sinner in a past mortal probation.

Jesus said he only does what the Father does. Since Jesus never sinned I think that's good enough to conclude that the Father didn't either.

[Zakuska]

The whole Jerusalem Council shoots this debate in the foot from the get go...

Acts 15

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:

31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.

32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.

33 And after they had tarried there a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles.

34 Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still.

Why no mention of having to Know jesus was a God before the world was?

The Apostles would not fain to know what exactly?

To know every little ontological detail about God, and what they where "becoming".

And that difference is...?

That they arn't the same substance. Which is silly because two things cant be in the same place at the same time.

[freakin a man]

I really see no difference between whether Jesus has always been a God or whether he became a God would would be considered 50 billion earth years ago. Even if its the latter, that is so long in man conception of time that practically speaking he can be called a God from from an everlasting past. The main thing is that he was God before creation began and that status has not nor will change.