Did Jesus Become A God Or Was He Always A God?

[LifeOnaPlate]

Jesus said he only does what the Father does. Since Jesus never sinned I think that's good enough to conclude that the Father didn't either.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner! Don't forget to put that in your wiki page, Shafavoloff.

By the way: Eternal life is to know the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom he has sent. I guess the quibbling here is over what it means to "know" God, exactly.

[flavo]

To believe Christ has always been a god must be coupled with the belief of eternal progression, even for a god.

[moreholinessgiveme]

To know every little ontological detail about God, and what they where "becoming".

No, I don't think they do. Nobody does.

BUT

We need to be striving towards such. Just because we don't know does not excuse our not trying. God does expect us to seek and receive that knowledge from Him.

It is God who teaches me about Who He Is, personally.

And I am not in some exclusive club. All are invited, none are excluded.

[Zakuska]

No, I don't think they do. Nobody does.

BUT

We need to be striving towards such. Just because we don't know does not excuse our not trying. God does expect us to seek and receive that knowledge from Him.

It is God who teaches me about Who He Is, personally.

And I am not in some exclusive club. All are invited, none are excluded.

AMEN! Now if you can only convince Paul and Aaron!!!

But none of this can detract from the clear implications of what Peter said...

Acts 10

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

James agrees...

James 1

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Workers of Righteousness are acceptable to God. No matter what nationality or religion.

[lavinas]

This is doublespeak, and is completely inconsistent with what the Bible says. There was no pre-existent world that Jesus sprang from as a "spirit-child." Prior to creation nothing existed (Jn. 1:3; Rom. 4:17). And the Bible is quite clear in telling us, "John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Hence, Jesus never became God, for he was always God, who existed in an intimate and harmonious relationship with God. To say otherwise is to introduce ideas about Jesus, that if they were true, would immediately cause all things to cease to exist, since all things rely upon the creative agency of Jesus to hold together (Col. 1:17). Nevertheless, since all things continue, and have not ceased to exist, then the idea of Jesus becoming God is patently false.

You are over looking Hebrews 1:1-14. In Heb.1:5-6 God called Christ hes Son and had Him sit at Gods right Hand. This proves that Christ is a being all His own. Even the Father God Had to give back His God Rights back to Christ. And put Christ On the right hand of God the Father. Also John1:1 Miens that The Son of God existed be for the big bang. The Father was the one that planed out what was to be made an His Son cared out the plane, By making all of it. Now When it says that the earth was with out form and void it is because God destroyed the earth two times the fist time was to get satin. The last time was to git the earth back to good.

The bible only pertains to this earth and not to the universe. It toke Seven days to recreate this world.And to make man from a spirit being to a created being that was the image of The Son Of God, until Man fill from grace. The universe toke many many years of God time to create the universe. 1000 yr. is one day to God.

When we went in to apostasy a lot of the beliefs that we had was forbidden by the ruling priest to keep the people in line, the bible was made to look at there beliefs and not the true beliefs.

[Paul D]

If a Wiccan (or a group of them) came to my house, or to some gathering where I was present, I

would render them the same acceptance that Jesus rendered unto Samaritans and Gentiles -- no more

and no less.

I'm sorry, Dale, but that is not what you were asked. I didn't say anything about them accepting whatever rendering of Jesus you might have for them. I wanted to know whether or not you were willing to let them come in an join hands with you in fellowship, or just your church in general as a member, even though you knew their paganistic view of Jesus (and a whole host of other beliefs) was completely contrary to the one you say you believe in.

[Paul D]

I wouldn't say this defines a traditional Christian by any stretch, seeng as how it requires one to have access to a canonical Bible compliled centuries after Christ lived in mortality. I would say this is a traditional Biblicist.

Just because the Bible was compiled a couple of centuries after Jesus lived does not mean that the Bible was not already in existence shortly after his death.

The New Testament was complete, or substantially complete, about AD 100, the majority of the writings being in existence twenty to forty years before this.â??F. F. Bruce, The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, reprint 2000), 12.

And that difference is...?

The creature is not infinite as a being, nor is it a se, for starters. Yet, God is both.

[Paul D]

Jesus said he only does what the Father does. Since Jesus never sinned I think that's good enough to conclude that the Father didn't either.

Granted. Jesus never sinned. But, what does a Mormon do with LDS leadership and their comments which speak of God becoming God, but only after living a life as a human being, as all human beings do, which must include engaging in sin?

[Paul D]

The whole Jerusalem Council shoots this debate in the foot from the get go...

Acts 15

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:

31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.

32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.

33 And after they had tarried there a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles.

34 Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still.

Why no mention of having to Know jesus was a God before the world was?

Because that was not the question they were dealing with at the time. Moreover, those at the counsel already knew that Jesus was God.

You are over looking Hebrews 1:1-14. In Heb.1:5-6 God called Christ hes Son and had Him sit at Gods right Hand. This proves that Christ is a being all His own. Even the Father God Had to give back His God Rights back to Christ. And put Christ On the right hand of God the Father. Also John1:1 Miens that The Son of God existed be for the big bang. The Father was the one that planed out what was to be made an His Son cared out the plane, By making all of it. Now When it says that the earth was with out form and void it is because God destroyed the earth two times the fist time was to get satin. The last time was to git the earth back to good.

The bible only pertains to this earth and not to the universe. It toke Seven days to recreate this world.And to make man from a spirit being to a created being that was the image of The Son Of God, until Man fill from grace. The universe toke many many years of God time to create the universe. 1000 yr. is one day to God.

When we went in to apostasy a lot of the beliefs that we had was forbidden by the ruling priest to keep the people in line, the bible was made to look at there beliefs and not the true beliefs.

Since you're all over the place in your response, I'll simply ask: what is your question?

[Lightbearer]

No, what matters with God in becoming a Christian is what the person does with His Son. And if a person has not heard anything, that does not absolve him of his guilt as as sinner, since all have sinned, bar none. Hence, God is always fair and just, and not a respecter of persons, and will grant Chi the rice farmer exactly what he deserves, as He grants all unrepentant sinners what they deserve: a one-way ticket to hell. Now, some my bristle over such a notion, but God does not owe anyone anything, and for Him to do such is once again fair and just, and no one who knows what God has revealed on the matter will question it.

So if all have sinned, which is true enough, then does God have an obligation to his "creations" to lead them to His truth? I question your interpretation on what God has said. The God that I believe in is a God of love, not hate. He came to save not to destroy. He loves us so much that He sent His only begotton son in the flesh, the only perfect being to atone for the sins of the world unto all those who repent and follow Him. He calls Prophets and Apostles and brings forth scripture-the Bible and also modern day scriptures to teach the truth to His children. And no we are not just "defective creatures" that God created out of nothing and that Satan outsmarted God in being able to deceive those "creatures" into "rebelling" against God. But we are His spirit children, created in His image and likeness. So what think ye of this statement:

(Acts 17:

[LifeOnaPlate]

Granted. Jesus never sinned. But, what does a Mormon do with LDS leadership and their comments which speak of God becoming God, but only after living a life as a human being, as all human beings do, which must include engaging in sin?

Man can become God. Jesus did. It's in the first 4 books of the Bible.

[Doctor Steuss]

Granted. Jesus never sinned. But, what does a Mormon do with LDS leadership and their comments which speak of God becoming God, but only after living a life as a human being, as all human beings do, which must include engaging in sin?

Not all humans are like you.

[Paul D]

Man can become God. Jesus did. It's in the first 4 books of the Bible.

Jesus did not become something that he always was. What Jesus did was "become" human for the express reason of redeeming humanity.

[consiglieri]

Well, let me ask you, like I asked Dale: Do you have Wiccans come join, sing, and give offerings in your church as regular members? If not, why not?

Wiccans are welcome in my ward.

As would you be.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Tsuzuki]

The creature is not infinite as a being, nor is it a se, for starters. Yet, God is both.

In the language of Lao Tzu, would you say that creator is the Tao, while creature is the Ten Thousand Things?

[Paul D]

Not all humans are like you.

Well, that's not what your leaders have said.

Let me ask, are we not taught that we as sons of God may become like him? Is not this a glorious thought? Yet we have to pass through mortality and receive the resurrection and then go on to perfection just as our Father did before us. The Prophet taught that our Father had a Father and so on. Is not this a reasonable thought, especially when we remember that the promises are made to us that we may become like him?â??Doctrines of Salvation: Sermons and Writings of Joseph Fielding Smith, edited by Bruce R. McConkie (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, [1954]), 1:12.

Now, since all humans die, and death is the penalty for sin, then if the Mormon "God" did not sin as a human, then why did he have to die, given that he was not a "God" yet? And if he was a "God," and was dying for sin, then how is his death different than Jesus'?

[Uncle Dale]

If a Wiccan (or a group of them) came to my house, or to some gathering where I was present, I

would render them the same acceptance that Jesus rendered unto Samaritans and Gentiles -- no more

and no less.

I'm sorry, Dale, but that is not what you were asked. I didn't say anything about them accepting

whatever rendering of Jesus you might have for them.

Nor did I -- I said that I would accept them in a certain way -- no matter how much or how little they

themselves might accept of the biblical faith.

I believe it is written somewhere, that "even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their

masters' table," whether those be Syro-Phoenicians brought up to venerate Baal, or whether they

be contemporary Wiccans, taught to pay homage to the horned god.

I wanted to know whether or not you were willing to let them come in an join hands with you in

fellowship, or just your church in general as a member...

No -- not as a member with a vote in the church's business meetings, or an opportunity to be ordained

and administer ordinances. But, rather, in the same sense that I am an associate member of the

United Methodist Church, and have been since I attended and graduated at one of their seminaries. As

an associate member my rights and privileges are greatly restricted -- but I am allowed fellowship --

and, yes, those Christians do take hold of the hand of a Latter Day Saint in praise, worship and prayer.

I do not think either they or their belief system has suffered any harm in such cases.

... even though you knew their paganistic view of Jesus (and a whole host of other beliefs) was

completely contrary to the one you say you believe in.

How so "completely contrary?" A Roman Catholic who prays to Mary and the blessed saints has a "view"

of things very different from mine -- but he/she is still welcome in my house, even if they reject the

Book of Mormon and decry Joseph Smith as utter foolishness.

You seem to demonstrate a point of view that imagines that those different from yourself can never

be brought to a faith very similar to your own.

I am reminded of some United States A.I.D. employees in South Asia, whom I heard warning their young

children about me: "Don't get near that man, because he lives with the Buddhists!!"

Indeed I did -- and I seriously doubt that either they or myself were harmed by that close interaction.

UD

[LifeOnaPlate]

Jesus did not become something that he always was. What Jesus did was "become" human for the express reason of redeeming humanity.

Well, I guess you missed this post. Props to Lightbearer.

[Paul D]

Wiccans are welcome in my ward.

As would you be.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Once again, the question is not about whether or not they are welcome. The question is about whether you would allow them to become members, while continuing to believe something completely contrary than you do about the person of Jesus. For instance, some Wiccans don't even believe that Jesus existed. Could they become members in your church and be allowed to believe such a thing?

[consiglieri]

Jesus did not become something that he always was. What Jesus did was "become" human for the express reason of redeeming humanity.

If Jesus "became human," then he was not always God.

You're right. A seventh grader could figure it out!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[LifeOnaPlate]

Well, that's not what your leaders have said.

Now, since all humans die, and death is the penalty for sin, then if the Mormon "God" did not sin as a human, then why did he have to die, given that he was not a "God" yet? And if he was a "God," and was dying for sin, then how is his death different than Jesus'?

But this is based on a faulty premise. Jesus Himself-sinless- died.

Atta boy, consig.

[Paul D]

In the language of Lao Tzu, would you say that creator is the Tao, while creature is the Ten Thousand Things?

Define Tao and define creature.

[Doctor Steuss]

Well, that's not what your leaders have said.

Actually, I'm pretty sure my leaders would agree that not all humans are like you. To state otherwise is just silly.

Now, since all humans die, and death is the penalty for sin, then if the Mormon "God" did not sin as a human, then why did he have to die, given that he was not a "God" yet? And if he was a "God," and was dying for sin, then how is his death different than Jesus'?

Why could G-d the Father not have been like Christ? There is nothing in LDS theology that precludes such, and there is scripture that tends to lean towards that interpretation.

Let us decide what we believe. Stop interpreting our leaders and scripture to support your agenda. Such may be ok with your Jesus, but my Jesus would probably find that a bit uncharitable.

[consiglieri]

Once again, the question is not about whether or not they are welcome. The question is about whether you would allow them to become members, while continuing to believe something completely contrary than you do about the person of Jesus. For instance, some Wiccans don't even believe that Jesus existed. Could they become members in your church and be allowed to believe such a thing?

Once again, it is you who are changing the question.

You told Uncle Dale he could not sing in your church because he believes differently about Jesus than you.

You can sing in our church even though you believe differently about Jesus than we.

You are welcome in our church even though you believe differently about Jesus than we.

But, if you really want to get down to brass tacks, you could be a member of our church and believe that Jesus was always God.

You could even go to the temple, our holiest place, even though you believed that Jesus was always God.

You could even come to our potlucks . . . but you would have to bring some food to share with everybody else.

Top that!

--Consiglieri

[Paul D]

No -- not as a member with a vote in the church's business meetings, or an opportunity to be ordained and administer ordinances.

That's all I wanted to know, thank you. Hence, you're no different in your position than I am when it comes to accepting people who need a change of heart about what they believe before they can join a congregation as an active member.

Well, I guess you missed this post. Props to Lightbearer.

What specifically did you want me to see in that post?