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Did Jesus Become A God Or Was He Always A God?


consiglieri

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In another thread, much has been made over a doctrinal difference between LDS and Evangelicals as to whether Jesus became a God at some point in the pre-mortal existence (LDS) or whether Jesus has always been God (Evangelical).

My question is who actually thinks God cares about what we believe in this regard, and whether God will actually grant or deny salvation based upon so esoteric a theological issue.

Are there any on this board who think I will go to hell for thinking Jesus has not always been God, but did become God at some time prior to the creation of this earth?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

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In another thread, much has been made over a doctrinal difference between LDS and Evangelicals as to whether Jesus became a God at some point in the pre-mortal existence (LDS) or whether Jesus has always been God (Evangelical).

My question is who actually thinks God cares about what we believe in this regard, and whether God will actually grant or deny salvation based upon so esoteric a theological issue.

Are there any on this board who think I will go to hell for thinking Jesus has not always been God, but did become God at some time prior to the creation of this earth?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Was there ever a time that Moses was not a prophet?

Was there ever a time that John did not baptize?

Was there ever a day when Noah was not working on ark projects?

Uncle "human minds cannot comprehend Jesus' relationship to God -- best that we stop trying" Dale

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Well, if you want my opinion, it is perfectly acceptable to say that He became God, and that He has always been God. In the premortal world, I think all of us, in a sense, were gods and if we stay on the correct path we will, eventually become exalted gods and at that point, we will be considered to have always been gods. At least that is the way I understand D&C 132:

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

Clear as mud?

T-Shirt

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Well, if you want my opinion, it is perfectly acceptable to say that He became God, and that He has always been God. In the premortal world, I think all of us, in a sense, were gods and if we stay on the correct path we will, eventually become exalted gods and at that point, we will be considered to have always been gods. At least that is the way I understand D&C 132:

Clear as mud?

T-Shirt

Thanks for reminding me of that cool and totally mind-bending verse, T-Shirt!

So I guess Aaron is okay even if he believes God has always been God?

I sure would hate for him to roast for eternity over a simple difference of opinion.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

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And best that we stop condemning others to hell for disagreements about what the

human mind cannot comprehend, mi amigo!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Indeed ---- I nowhere read in scripture that we are given the authority and mission to go about

judging and condemning others for their not having a perfect understanding.

On Sunday morning there is a guy on the same bench, singing the same hymn and partaking of the

same sacrament --- can't we all grant him just a little mental leeway, to learn "line upon line" and

"precept upon precept" at his own rate of comprehension?

Besides which -- that guy who doesn't understand religion precisely as we do, might end up teaching

us all a thing or two, if we just take the time to grant him that opportunity.

UD

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More specifically, the issue is whether Jesus has always been fully God.

And of course, traditional Christians really do believe God cares what we believe about him. As I've argued elsewhere, he also cares whether we think it's possible he was once a sinner in a past mortal probation.

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In another thread, much has been made over a doctrinal difference between LDS and Evangelicals as to whether Jesus became a God at some point in the pre-mortal existence (LDS) or whether Jesus has always been God (Evangelical).

My question is who actually thinks God cares about what we believe in this regard, and whether God will actually grant or deny salvation based upon so esoteric a theological issue.

First of all, it is not an esoteric issue. It is a Christological issue that the Bible answers quite clearly in the affirmative: Jesus is God, and has always been God. Second of all, yes, God does care about what we believe about Jesus, given that God is the one responsible for the revelation we have about him. Hence, those rejecting what God has said about Jesus will preclude that person from attaining salvation, even though that same person might believe in someone called "Jesus."

Are there any on this board who think I will go to hell for thinking Jesus has not always been God, but did become God at some time prior to the creation of this earth?

It doesn't matter what we think. What matters is what God thinks, and has revealed. If you reject God's revelation on the matter, and subscribe to a doctrine that is contrary to what God has revealed, then you're toast. You're done. That is, unless God grants you the grace to change your way of thinking before it's eternally too late. And may God grant you that grace.

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We are all the spiritual offspring of God. The difference between us and Jesus is that he was first, recieved far more intellegence that all of us, and he was not subjected to the Fall. Also, if he's the firstborn, then his right is to inherit all that his Father has, which is Godhood.

At least that's how I see it.

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And best that we stop condemning others to hell for disagreements about what the human mind cannot comprehend, mi amigo!

The person who rejects God's revelation is already condemned (Jn. 3:18). So, it's probably best to at least pay attention to those who know what God has said on the matter, as they attempt to warn you of the consequences, than to merely "condemn" them for what they're saying, and then use a tenuous excuse as the reason one couldn't understand 7th grade language (which is about the level of the Bible's writings).

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Well, if you want my opinion, it is perfectly acceptable to say that He became God, and that He has always been God. In the premortal world, I think all of us, in a sense, were gods and if we stay on the correct path we will, eventually become exalted gods and at that point, we will be considered to have always been gods. At least that is the way I understand D&C 132:

Clear as mud?

T-Shirt

This is doublespeak, and is completely inconsistent with what the Bible says. There was no pre-existent world that Jesus sprang from as a "spirit-child." Prior to creation nothing existed (Jn. 1:3; Rom. 4:17). And the Bible is quite clear in telling us, "John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Hence, Jesus never became God, for he was always God, who existed in an intimate and harmonious relationship with God. To say otherwise is to introduce ideas about Jesus, that if they were true, would immediately cause all things to cease to exist, since all things rely upon the creative agency of Jesus to hold together (Col. 1:17). Nevertheless, since all things continue, and have not ceased to exist, then the idea of Jesus becoming God is patently false.

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the Bible answers quite clearly in the affirmative: Jesus is God, and has always been God....

Let me get this straight ---

We go back about 1990 years into the past, to a little home-school in Nazareth,

and there are three boys learning Hebrew from the local teacher:

Jacob

Judah

Jeshua

Now, the first two little scholars are mere human beings, but the third one is God Almighty?

Is there some compelling reason that I simply MUST believe such a thing? -- or might I be forgiven

for my incomprehension of this totally unique theological assertion?

Uncle Dale

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More specifically, the issue is whether Jesus has always been fully God.

And of course, traditional Christians really do believe God cares what we believe about him. As I've argued elsewhere, he also cares whether we think it's possible he was once a sinner in a past mortal probation.

What, pray tell, is a "traditional Christian"?

Also, Agent Shafavoloff, there is a list of questions wating for you to answer here.

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More specifically, the issue is whether Jesus has always been fully God.

And of course, traditional Christians really do believe God cares what we believe about him. As I've argued elsewhere, he also cares whether we think it's possible he was once a sinner in a past mortal probation.

Thats intresting Aaron... Thats not the Gospel Peter taught.

Acts 10

34

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We are all the spiritual offspring of God.

No, we are not. The Bible makes it quite clear that there are those that do not possess the Spirit of God, which is a necessary quality in identifying those who belong to God (Rom. 8:9), and those that belong to the Devil (1 Jn. 3:10).

The difference between us and Jesus is that he was first, recieved far more intellegence that all of us, and he was not subjected to the Fall.

Incorrect. The difference between the creature and the Creator is both ontological and essential. Jesus is our Creator, as he is the Creator of all things. Hence, the difference is not about intelligence. It is about necessary existence and quality.

Also, if he's the firstborn, then his right is to inherit all that his Father has, which is Godhood.

At least that's how I see it.

First-born, when referring to Jesus, merely means "preeminent;" not first in a familial line of similar beings.

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Let me get this straight ---

We go back about 1990 years into the past, to a little home-school in Nazareth,

and there are three boys learning Hebrew from the local teacher:

Jacob

Judah

Jeshua

Now, the first two little scholars are mere human beings, but the third one is God Almighty?

Is there some compelling reason that I simply MUST believe such a thing? -- or might I be forgiven

for my incomprehension of this totally unique theological assertion?

Uncle Dale

Yes, there is a compelling reason: it called, God's Word has revealed as much about the person of Jesus. He is God Almighty. Those rejecting such revelation, and set out on their own path are destined to be judged by the One they ultimately rejected.

What, pray tell, is a "traditional Christian"?

Put simply, someone who believes what God has revealed in the Bible about Jesus foremost, and then what Jesus revealed about what is necessary for a person to become a Christian (John 3:1-:P.

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Yes, there is a compelling reason: it called, God's Word has revealed as much about the person of Jesus. He is God Almighty. Those rejecting such revelation, and set out on their own path are destined to be judged by the One they ultimately rejected.

Well, I suppose that God will judge me, and not you.

But I also assume that you belong to some group of Christians and that you attend some church somewhere.

Would I be welcome to enter that chapel, if I did NOT affirm that one of those three little boys in the

Hebrew class so long ago was the God of Israel and the Creater of all things?

Would I be allowed to sit down in a pew in that chapel and pray a prayer? Would I be welcome to join with

the assembled congregation, to sing a hymn or give an offering? Would I be accepted in that congregation

as they celebrated the Lord's Supper and and engaged in mutual fellowship?

If not, then why not?

UD

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More specifically, the issue is whether Jesus has always been fully God.

And of course, traditional Christians really do believe God cares what we believe about him. As I've argued elsewhere, he also cares whether we think it's possible he was once a sinner in a past mortal probation.

So, then, actually God cares about something even more esoteric than I at first thought?

When did God clue you in that he actually cares what we believe about him; and specifically that Jesus has always been fully God?

Was this a special memo to you only, or was it addressed to all "traditional Christians"?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

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Well, I suppose that God will judge me, and not you.

Who said anything about anyone judging anyone? I was merely answering your question.

But I also assume that you belong to some group of Christians and that you attend some church somewhere.

Would I be welcome to enter that chapel, if I did NOT affirm that one of those three little boys in the

Hebrew class so long ago was the God of Israel and the Creater of all things?

You would be welcome to attend, but you wouldn't be welcome to join. That is, until you changed your thinking so that it was in line with what the Bible was saying.

Would I be allowed to sit down in a pew in that chapel and pray a prayer?

Quietly, sure.

Would I be welcome to join with

the assembled congregation, to sing a hymn or give an offering?

Nope.

Would I be accepted in that congregation

as they celebrated the Lord's Supper and and engaged in mutual fellowship?

Nope.

If not, then why not?

UD

Because you would be holding onto doctrines about Jesus that are contrary to Scripture. Now, if I was a Unitarian or belonged to come Liberal Who Gives a Bo-Didley? church, then sure, you could probably come and sing and give your offering just like some of the Wiccans do. You do have Wiccans come join, sing, and give offerings in your church as regular members, don't you? If not, why not? They believe the same thing about Jesus that you apparently do. :P

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First of all, it is not an esoteric issue. It is a Christological issue that the Bible answers quite clearly in the affirmative: Jesus is God, and has always been God. Second of all, yes, God does care about what we believe about Jesus, given that God is the one responsible for the revelation we have about him. Hence, those rejecting what God has said about Jesus will preclude that person from attaining salvation, even though that same person might believe in someone called "Jesus."

It doesn't matter what we think. What matters is what God thinks, and has revealed. If you reject God's revelation on the matter, and subscribe to a doctrine that is contrary to what God has revealed, then you're toast. You're done. That is, unless God grants you the grace to change your way of thinking before it's eternally too late. And may God grant you that grace.

I am glad that you are at least willing to own up to your beliefs in this regard.

I understand you to say that because I believe Jesus has not always been God, I am hell-bound to roast for eternity unless I change my opinion on the subject . . . through God's grace, of course.

You do recognize that the Johanine prologue speaks of Jesus being God "in the beginning," as opposed to saying that Jesus has always been God?

Most scholars see this as a reference to the first words of the Old Testament, and situating Jesus as being God at the time the earth was created.

What about before that? The Bible just does not say.

So I am to be damned for believing something the Bible does not spell out?

I like the quote from Joseph Smith, "I never hear of a man being condemned for believing too much, but for unbelief."

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

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He's not? Read it again.

I have read it. God is not a respecter of persons in the sense that He doesn't respect who or what you are in your station in life. In other words, you might be the President of the United States, yet that status will not gain you brownie points with God.

The only thing that matters with God is their works. So even Chi the rice farmer who has never heard tell of such a thing as Jesus Christ has a shot at Salvation.

No, what matters with God in becoming a Christian is what the person does with His Son. And if a person has not heard anything, that does not absolve him of his guilt as as sinner, since all have sinned, bar none. Hence, God is always fair and just, and not a respecter of persons, and will grant Chi the rice farmer exactly what he deserves, as He grants all unrepentant sinners what they deserve: a one-way ticket to hell. Now, some my bristle over such a notion, but God does not owe anyone anything, and for Him to do such is once again fair and just, and no one who knows what God has revealed on the matter will question it.

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No, we are not. The Bible makes it quite clear that there are those that do not possess the Spirit of God, which is a necessary quality in identifying those who belong to God (Rom. 8:9), and those that belong to the Devil (1 Jn. 3:10).

Heres the problem you've got Paul D... When God created Adam he wasn't "corrupt" or "fallen" as the verses you site indcate. But he was in the very Image of God.

Acts 17

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Remember Paul is speaking of Literal Blood lines here, "Genos" not some "adoptation" phenominon. He's also speaking of All Nations so unless Christains are saying that ALL NATIONS are adopted sons and daughters of God...

Luke also agrees to this...

Luke 3

38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

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Would I be welcome to join with the assembled congregation, to sing a hymn or give an offering?

Nope.

That settles it then, doesn't it?

I'm a five-year old boy who cannot comprehend such Christology, and so I cannot sing the hymn.

I'm a mentally challenged adult who cannot comprehend much theology at all, and so I am rejected.

I'm an elderly person on the verge of senility and can barely remember who Jesus is. I am rejected.

And these judgements you offer us as the Gospel of Jesus Christ in action?

Surely there are barking dogs who neither enter the Master's house, nor do they allow others to enter.

Dale R. Broadhurst

Hilo, Hawaii

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