How Can We Know When We Hear

[Freedom in Truth]

I do not have an answer for you right now, but in light of your assertion that I 'choose what I want to believe,' I am glad that you asked this question. As one skeptical of Christianity, it would tickle me pink to believe that there was no historical Jesus at all. If I were in the business of 'choosing' my beliefs, this would be one of them. But if you read and understood and were convinced by my previous post, then you would see that I do not challenge the existence of Jesus because I am not (yet) convinced that the evidence of his existence is as flimsy as the mythical-Christ proponents would argue. This is something I am currently studying. At present, I am reading The Jesus Puzzle, The Pagan Christ, and The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man, all of which, to one degree or another, challenge the idea of an historical Jesus. After I have read these, I will read what criticisms of and rebuttals to these works I can find.

Then I will be able to tell you why I don't challenge Jesus's existence (or why I do).

Tell me, what were the last books you read challenging your beliefs? Have you read Dawkins? Harris? Dennet? Russell? Have you heard of these authors? Would you read them, or only the apologetic responses that Christians make to them? We've discussed Ehrman a time or two. Have you read him? You've read reviews of his work, oh yes, but have you read Ehrman's arguments made by Ehrman? (If you think critics always present their opponents' arguments as strongly as the proponent does, then I have some Mormon apologetics for you that will change your life!)

As to your first question referencing whole books - during college for sure. Of course, they didnâ??t challenge my present beliefs because I didnâ??t have my present beliefs then. It sounds like you kind of held on to the beliefs you were raised with longer than I did. I threw everything out as a teen and started from scratch. Perhaps you throw out one concept at a time? I didnâ??t read â??anti-Christianâ? books - I read books promoting various other beliefs. I evaluated each belief based on itself. Do you know what I mean? Itâ??s kind of different.

As a Christian I have heard of Dawkins and read parts of Ehrman. I feel like I have read other books but I canâ??t remember them right now. As we moved from place to place I tended to get rid of such books. I have read a lot on the internet (including all those links you list). Honestly, it gets very repetitive. No one is saying anything new, so how much does one have to keep reading? And how many times should I read the same stuff and re-evaluate my beliefs? How many years?

What traditional Christian books have you read? (Iâ??m not talking about books merely arguing for Christianity.) Have you read any Hebraic Roots books?

[Freedom in Truth]

Say someone comes to you and says, "So, Freedom in Truth, even though the Bible contains contradictions, errors of history and science, forgeries, and failed prophecies, you still believe it can in any way be called inspired of God?"

Would you say to them, "Yeah, it has all those . . . but I don't care. It's still God's word to me"?

Since I have had discussions like this with you, I know that you would not. You would explain, reason, defend, and discuss these issues with your questioner.

Yet you would have Mormons respond to controversial issues such as Smith's occultism without so much as a single qualification for why they still believe him to be a prophet? Isn't there some old saw about pots and kettles?

But, TCM, they donâ??t really explain or reason.

I think you are possibly misremembering here. I have said many times that the Bible contains contradictions. Some I believe are really not contradictions - but some are. I have discussed how the Hebrews did not consider it critical to get unessential details accurate . . . do you remember? I have discussed the characteristics of Hebrew literature many times (though maybe not on this board - not sure.) Errors of history would fall into this category as well. â??Errorsâ? of science - not sure what you are addressing here. I hope you are not addressing miracles or poetic passages. â??Forgeriesâ? - again, not sure what you are addressing. If youâ??re talking about Matthew not penning Matthew, I would say I agree with you. But again, in Jewish literature, it would mean that it is the gospel traced back orally to Matthew - is that a forgery in your mind? Failed prophecies - not if they are Godâ??s Word. If itâ??s something a person added, then sure.

So I would say, â??Yeah, it has some of those, and itâ??s going to have a lot more of those if you read with Greek lenses - but thatâ??s not what I mean when I say it is Godâ??s Word.â?

Havenâ??t you seen the forums/threads started because I said the Bible is not perfect? (something like â??Hey, everyone, can you believe an EV admitted the Bible isnâ??t perfect?!â?) (Iâ??ve never been sure I was an EV.)

Yeah, I have trouble with Mormons thinking someone can be involved in occult practices and still be walking with God. Itâ??s kind of like saying someone can walk with both God and the devil.

[Freedom in Truth]

Thanks for finding these for me! I have come across some of these in my own search, but I will look over your links! Thanks!

The links are good, but the bulk of the material is in the books and teachings, unfortunately.

[TrashcanMan79]

When I first met you I did not know you believed in any of your list above except some Mormon beliefs. We didnâ??t talk about those things. How would I know?

You knew I was a Mormon, but didn't know I believed in God, Christ's resurrection, etc? I guess I can accept this, given the variety of beliefs held within Mormonism (though I don't know of any who reject belief in God, Jesus, his resurrection, etc), but I find it very hard to believe that you thought you were speaking to an agnostic who just randomly happened to hold some Mormon beliefs while denying the fundamentals. But I suppose anything is possible. . . .

[Selah]

OKay all. I am simply writing to add one more post to the thread. I want to see this topic make it to 600 replies because I have never ever seen one go anywhere near the high. Am I wrong for wanting that?

[Calm]

OKay all. I am simply writing to add one more post to the thread. I want to see this topic make it to 600 replies because I have never ever seen one go anywhere near the high. Am I wrong for wanting that?

It is good to have goals in this life.

[Freedom in Truth]

You knew I was a Mormon, but didn't know I believed in God, Christ's resurrection, etc? I guess I can accept this, given the variety of beliefs held within Mormonism (though I don't know of any who reject belief in God, Jesus, his resurrection, etc), but I find it very hard to believe that you thought you were speaking to an agnostic who just randomly happened to hold some Mormon beliefs while denying the fundamentals. But I suppose anything is possible. . . .

It was because you or someone else called you a jack Mormon that I didn't assume you held the standard Mormon beliefs. After all, Mormons believe it is important to be active, and you didn't. I didn't assume much about your specific beliefs - you were very different from other Mormons I had met. And I have found on this board that beliefs can range widely from Mormon to Mormon.

We didn't really talk about the basic beliefs. I knew you respected the BoM. I believe I remember you giving me links to atheistic articles - you probably did that to make a certain point but it was confusing to me. It would be like me giving you a article criticizing the Bible because I liked one point it made. I wouldn't do that.

Anyway, it seems best to not assume when talking with people on threads! Many people assume I hold a lot of beliefs that I don't just because I am a traditional Christian. We are all individuals and we are all surprises!

[Freedom in Truth]

OKay all. I am simply writing to add one more post to the thread. I want to see this topic make it to 600 replies because I have never ever seen one go anywhere near the high. Am I wrong for wanting that?

I don't know about 600!

Are you wrong for wanting that? I don't know. It would matter what was in your heart! Why do you want it? What is your motivation?

(In case you can't tell, I am totally joking . . . but adding another post!!)

[Freedom in Truth]

It is good to have goals in this life.

LOL!!

Proverbs 17:22a "A cheerful heart is good medicine"

I agree - goals are very important.

[Tsuzuki]

Yeah, I have trouble with Mormons thinking someone can be involved in occult practices and still be walking with God. Itâ??s kind of like saying someone can walk with both God and the devil.

You are assuming that all occult practices are of the devil.

This is the LDS take on things.

11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.

12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.

13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.

14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.

15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.

19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.

- Moroni 7:11-19

[Paul Ray]

I think we can both agree that neither of us thinks the other is hearing from God.

That is not what I believe, Freedom in Truth.

I simply believe there are some things you just don't know about yet, or haven't heard about yet, or haven't even thought about yet... which is why I think it would help you to get into specific issues.

I don't believe God has NOT taught you anything or has taught you anything. I simply don't know if God has taught you anything.

In the last several pages of this thread I have tried to recommend an approach I believe would help you to know what I know, and what other people on this site know, but you don't seem to understand what I am saying.

I'll try one more time to give you a specific example. And then after this, you are on your own, bud.

Let's say, for instance, that you can't see how someone could possibly believe God inspired people to write both the Holy Bible and the Book of Mormon, because you think, according to your thinking, one book (or collection of books) contradicts the other book (or the other collection of books).

Are you with me so far, Freedom in Truth?

I could suggest another specific issue you might not agree with, but this one will do for the moment.

Now, since you already know what you think, and to your way of thinking both books contradict each other, I recommend that you ask some other people who don't believe both books contradict to explain how and/or why they think both books do not contradict.

Are you still with me, Freedom in Truth?

At this point I have tried to avoid the issue of whether or not God inspires you to think something specific, and am simply focusing on what you are thinking, or not thinking.

Now, let's suppose that the people you ask to explain this issue to you (who don't believe both books contradict) ask you to give a reason or an example to show why you think both books contradict each other. To their way of thinking, both books do not contradict, so they need to know what you mean when you say they do contradict. I know they could try to guess what you're thinking, but suppose they would rather ask you to explain what you are thinking.

Oh... and let's also suppose they ask you to give them an example of what you believe is contradictory in another thread, instead of the same thread you are then in. Let's say the thread you are then in was only about knowing we can hear from God, and not about the specific issues different people believe God has revealed to them... and the rules of the forum seem to indicate a thread is for a specific issue and each specific issue belongs in its own thread.

Are you still with me, Freedom in Truth?

Now let's suppose that you give them an example to work with.

... and that you do that in another thread.

You can bring up any issue, and we will be happy to discuss it. Discussion is what this site is all about.

We are free to believe in the way that we do. This does not mean I donâ??t respect you as a person.

I'm happy to hear you say this. I believe you do respect me as a person, just as I also respect you.

If we are rejecting anyone it would be God.

... or maybe we are only rejecting some ideas from each other while we also agree on some of our other ideas.

Look at me, Ma, I'm singin:

Happy trails...

... to... you...

... until

... we meet

... again.

[Selah]

Yes. I admit that I can be a bit of a cheese ball!!

[Neighbor]

You are assuming that all occult practices are of the devil.

This is the LDS take on things.

11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.

12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.

13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.

14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.

15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.

19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.

- Moroni 7:11-19

So how do you reconcile that with Peters statement to Jesus when Jesus said 'get thee behind me Satan'? Peter was following Jesus, in fact Jesus has just made a statement of fact about who Peter said He was. It isn't quite as simple as the above quote says it is.

How do we know good from evil when it is presented as a mix? That is the issue we face today with Satan working at deceptions for so long and of recent times gaining so much support for what is not true and not of Christ Jesus. Could it not be that the call for universal faith as in the day of prayer sanctioned by the Pope that included all kinds of faiths except the Jews is really the 'anti-Christ' and is 'doctrine of demons'?

So what were the implications of Jesus' statement, "Except ye believe that I am He, ye shall die in your sins" - a statement made to God believing Pharisees? Who did Jesus claim to be? Who did Jesus say He was? Look at His trial. Look at what Thomas declared. Look at what Jesus claimed about what He said. You can't believe in Jesus being who He claimed to be and not believe every word spoken and recorded by His apostles to be true and binding. Either He is God manifest in the flesh or a vile fraud.

What did Paul tell Timothy? What might be some things implied directly? Paul said that in the latter days people would choose to believe in a fable rather than the truth.

So the question this begs is:

How can you know you are not believing in a fable, but the truth that is the gospel delivered by Jesus Christ?

[Selah]

Come on, People!! Do I Hear 600?

[Hammer]

I'll give you one more.

[Calm]

Make it two.

[Tsuzuki]

So the question this begs is:

How can you know you are not believing in a fable, but the truth that is the gospel delivered by Jesus Christ?

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

- James 1:5-6

[Neighbor]

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

- James 1:5-6

How do you know Tsuzuki? This is about wavering. This is spoken to those who are already in Christ Jesus, not those who want to know what to believe - they already believe. Yet there is condemnation for believing a lie and being damned. Jesus said many will say "Lord, Lord" and will be told "Depart from Me, I never knew you." This verse is about wisdom, as it relates to existing true faith. As the verse in Revelation that says Jesus is at our door and we just need to let Him come in. Some take that verse to say all you have to be to be saved is to invite Jesus into your heart. If they took the time and effort to be more discerning they could see this statement was made to the luke-warm Church - it was make to those who had already come to faith in Jesus Christ, but who were only half hearted in living out the will of God in Christ.

Sometimes there are issues/decisions that must be made that we are not clear what to do from what we know about the gospel and the will of God in our lives to have an explicit command. There was also a time when the books of the NT were not completed, and certainly there were those millions who had not the opportunity of a Bible in their hands that they could know what God said.

Just where did Jesus say we are saved because of who baptized us, that they possess the authority to baptize? Perhaps a good question would be "Was the baptism of Jesus' disciples of Jesus or of John? was it a different baptism than John performed? That should be another topic though.

Again, how can we identify a fable from that which is real?

[Paul Ray]

(James 1:5-6) ... This is about wavering.

No, this is about how to gain wisdom, when any of us lack wisdom, by asking God for wisdom. And when we ask for wisdom we should not waver when we ask God for it.

This is spoken to those who are already in Christ Jesus, not those who want to know what to believe - they already believe.

That may be what you think. I do not think that, but let's suppose that I did for a minute. I believe I am already in Christ Jesus, so when I ask God to give me wisdom, I should avoid wavering when I ask God.

Yet there is condemnation for believing a lie and being damned. Jesus said many will say "Lord, Lord" and will be told "Depart from Me, I never knew you."

Yes, he did, didn't he. I think we should be wise enough to avoid believing a lie.

This verse is about wisdom, as it relates to existing true faith.

There you go. I'm glad to see you agree with me now.

As the verse in Revelation that says Jesus is at our door and we just need to let Him come in. Some take that verse to say all you have to be to be saved is to invite Jesus into your heart. If they took the time and effort to be more discerning they could see this statement was made to the luke-warm Church - it was make to those who had already come to faith in Jesus Christ, but who were only half hearted in living out the will of God in Christ.

I agree with this point too.

Sometimes there are issues/decisions that must be made that we are not clear what to do from what we know about the gospel and the will of God in our lives to have an explicit command.

And it is at those times that I ask God for wisdom, and I testify God has given some to me.

There was also a time when the books of the NT were not completed, and certainly there were those millions who had not the opportunity of a Bible in their hands that they could know what God said.

Uh huh. I believe anyone can ask God for wisdom.

Just where did Jesus say we are saved because of who baptized us, that they possess the authority to baptize?

It might help to start another thread on this issue, but basically, we (LDS) believe God must authorize our actions before God will authorize our actions. And God often works through representatives instead of doing everything by Himself.

Perhaps a good question would be "Was the baptism of Jesus' disciples of Jesus or of John? was it a different baptism than John performed? That should be another topic though.

I agree that it should be another topic of discussion, but my other answers are yes, and yes, I believe.

Again, how can we identify a fable from that which is real?

I ask God to guide me, personally, and when God does, God gives me some more of God's wisdom.

[Doctor Steuss]

595

[Paul Ray]

595

595 what?

Btw, 596.

[Matthew J. Tandy]

I have no idea what this thread is really about. I've studiously avoided it as not being of interest to me. But this is on page 30, so I've read this page out of amazement. And now, having absolutely no relevance to the thread, but wanting to have my name attached to this monumental achievement, I add an additional post, bringing this I beleive to 597.

[Paul Ray]

I have no idea what this thread is really about. I've studiously avoided it as not being of interest to me. But this is on page 30, so I've read this page out of amazement. And now, having absolutely no relevance to the thread, but wanting to have my name attached to this monumental achievement, I add an additional post, bringing this I beleive to 597.

Well said, my man, my friend, my brother.

Btw, we're all the way up to post# 597 now.

The one who gets to post #600 want want to print it frame it.

... simply for the sake of posterity.

[TrashcanMan79]

When a thread is being added to for the sole purpose of reaching a desired post count, I suggest it is time for that thread to be closed, and it would tickle me pink if it were closed before reaching 600. Mods?

[Paul Ray]

I just want to say one more time before the thread closes that I know God has taught me some things.

... and that means I also know it is God who has taught me those things.

You can disagree if you want, but that won't change in the least the fact that I know who is God.