How Can We Know When We Hear

[Freedom in Truth]

No, but at least you would understand our reasoning.

Yeah! We agree that "to understand" is not the same as "to agree"! That is an important point.

Here are a few tests to see if you understand our reasoning.

1) Our (LDS) understanding of God is in harmony with what is written in the Bible about God.

True or False? According to LDS thinking, the answer is true - excluding possible passages about God that were corrupted or added by the "apostate" church or "apostate" men. Some Mormons might find a way of interpreting these passages so that they work - some Mormons might just declare them corrupted changes or additions.

2) The Holy Bible and the Book of Mormon can be understood to be in harmony with each other.

True or False? According to LDS thinking, true.

3) Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God just as other people have been true prophets of God.

True or False? According to LDS thinking, true.

If you need extra space, feel free to write on the back or add another page for your answers.

I don't see that this is a test to understand your reasoning - the questions are instead testing to see if I understand "truths" you believe. Understanding the reasoning behind these "truths" is a different issue.

Where is the back?

[Paul Ray]

I don't see that this is a test to understand your reasoning - the questions are instead testing to see if I understand "truths" you believe.

We can get more specific, if you would like us to.

Those questions were only testing to see if you would understand the reasoning I was using in those specific questions and what LDS truly believe... rather than what you may think we believe.

Understanding the reasoning behind these "truths" is a different issue.

We can move on to some other questions whenever you want to do that.

Where is the back?

On the other side of the front.

[Paul Ray]

So how does a Mormon who believes the BOM is true and the most correct book on earth concerning the gospel reconcile that the latter books added disagree with say,,,the nature and person of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? I'm really serious.

First of all, how do you come to the belief that they disagree to begin with?

If you start off wrong, you are liable to stay wrong. I think we first need to ask God what is true.

How do you discern that both can possibly be teaching full restored truth when they don't agree???

I believe they do agree, and I got my belief on that from God, personally. To get into this deeper we need to talk specifics... preferably in another thread for each specific issue.

In keeping with the post topic - how is that discerned?

I always ask God to help me know what is true... and I always know when God is helping me, personally.

[Neighbor]

First of all, how do you come to the belief that they disagree to begin with?

If you start off wrong, you are liable to stay wrong. I think we first need to ask God what is true.

I believe they do agree, and I got my belief on that from God, personally. To get into this deeper we need to talk specifics... preferably in another thread for each specific issue.

I always ask God to help me know what is true... and I always know when God is helping me, personally.

So when God spoke in Exodus - Deu. that He alone is God and we are to have no other God but Him alone, and that He's a jealous God to boot, you need to ask Him to tell you if that is true or what that means? Then He spoke through Isaiah and Jeremiah quite clearly about Himself. Those clear statements of His singularity as God (didn't call it a "we") need some confirmation to know if it is true or not?

If we know those things are true, then I can certainly understand why you would have to have a witness of the truth quite apart from the recorded word of God in the Holy Scriptures.

I think I just answered my own question. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I think the Spirit witnesses with the word in all regards and never against what God said through the previous prophets proven to be true prophets and even those words of God that others heard as well as the prophet.

[TrashcanMan79]

If the doctrine of salvation by faith alone, or "solafidianism," is biblical, why do we have no accounts of Christians believing it until 1500 years after Jesus?

Please cite to one Church Father or other early Christian before Luther who understood the New Testament in the way that you do.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

If the doctrine of salvation by faith alone, or "solafidianism," is biblical, why do we have no accounts of Christians believing it until 1500 years after Jesus?

Please cite to one Church Father or other early Christian before Luther who understood the New Testament in the way that you do.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Just thought I would repost this question inasmuch as you haven't responded to it yet.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Hey Consiglieri, you hounded FIT for those quotes, he/she delivered, and you went AWOL! What happened, man?

[Neighbor]

Wow, how could one become a good evangelical until the printing press was invented?

[Freedom in Truth]

Wait a minute, wait a minute. Paul - you have been claiming that your old church, the Church of Christ, had true information - just not complete information. You have said that the Mormon church offered you more information which you added to what you already knew.

1 Nephi 14:10 â??And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.â?

Alma 5:39 â??And now if ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd, of what fold are ye? Behold, I say unto you, that the devil is your shepherd, and ye are of his fold; and now, who can deny this? Behold, I say unto you, whosoever denieth this is a liar and a child of the devil.â?

D&C 29:21a â??And the great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall be cast down by devouring fire,â?

D&C 93:37 â??Light and truth forsake that evil one.

D&C 93:39a â??And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth,â?

Please explain to me how a church of the devil (which you used to attend and which I do attend) can have incomplete truth when â??light and truth forsake that evil oneâ??. Please explain how I can attend a church under the power of the devil, the Father of Lies, and have him as my shepherd and the one I worship - yet I can have incomplete truth. Please explain why, if this church has some truth (though incomplete) it would be utterly destroyed.

[Neighbor]

Wait a minute, wait a minute. Paul - you have been claiming that your old church, the Church of Christ, had true information - just not complete information. You have said that the Mormon church offered you more information which you added to what you already knew.

Please explain to me how a church of the devil (which you used to attend and which I do attend) can have incomplete truth when â??light and truth forsake that evil oneâ??. Please explain how I can attend a church under the power of the devil, the Father of Lies, and have him as my shepherd and the one I worship - yet I can have incomplete truth. Please explain why, if this church has some truth (though incomplete) it would be utterly destroyed.

I'm not Paul, but perhaps if Satan can appear as an angel of light and those who are his are wolves in sheep's clothing, it is no mystery how chuches come to be with members that Jesus will say 'Depart from Me, I never knew you."

Just what makes the difference between those Jesus knows and those Jesus doesn't know? What did Jesus say was the difference?

[Tsuzuki]

Wait a minute, wait a minute. Paul - you have been claiming that your old church, the Church of Christ, had true information - just not complete information. You have said that the Mormon church offered you more information which you added to what you already knew.

1 Nephi 14:10 â??And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.â?

Alma 5:39 â??And now if ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd, of what fold are ye? Behold, I say unto you, that the devil is your shepherd, and ye are of his fold; and now, who can deny this? Behold, I say unto you, whosoever denieth this is a liar and a child of the devil.â?

D&C 29:21a â??And the great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall be cast down by devouring fire,â?

D&C 93:37 â??Light and truth forsake that evil one.

D&C 93:39a â??And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth,â?

Please explain to me how a church of the devil (which you used to attend and which I do attend) can have incomplete truth when â??light and truth forsake that evil oneâ??. Please explain how I can attend a church under the power of the devil, the Father of Lies, and have him as my shepherd and the one I worship - yet I can have incomplete truth. Please explain why, if this church has some truth (though incomplete) it would be utterly destroyed.

1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

- Revelation 17

Both this and the passages you quoted are metaphors for the ungodliness of the world. They are not physical churches or kingdoms.

[Freedom in Truth]

Please explain to me how a church of the devil (which you used to attend and which I do attend) can have incomplete truth when â??light and truth forsake that evil oneâ??. Please explain how I can attend a church under the power of the devil, the Father of Lies, and have him as my shepherd and the one I worship - yet I can have incomplete truth. Please explain why, if this church has some truth (though incomplete) it would be utterly destroyed.

1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

- Revelation 17

Both this and the passages you quoted are metaphors for the ungodliness of the world. They are not physical churches or kingdoms.

So, according to your interpretation the Mormon church is NOT the church of the Lamb? It is not necessarily where Truth can be found? And the church of the early church fathers is not the "apostate" church?

I thought JS came to restore truth - wouldn't that assume that the church of his time didn't HAVE truth?

[Tsuzuki]

So, according to your interpretation the Mormon church is NOT the church of the Lamb? It is not necessarily where Truth can be found? And the church of the early church fathers is not the "apostate" church?

I thought JS came to restore truth - wouldn't that assume that the church of his time didn't HAVE truth?

"And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth

out of obscurity and out of darkness

, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individuallyâ??"

- D&C 1:30

"His disciples said to him, 'When will the kingdom come?'

Jesus said, 'It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be a matter of saying â??here it is' or â??there it is'. Rather

the kingdom of the father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it.

'"

- The Gospel of Thomas, verse 113

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a lit match dropped into a barrel of oil.

[Neighbor]

Wouldn't it be reasonable that if the pope is the anti Christ that the Church he leads would be on the side of the antichrist?

Food for thought from an ex-Catholic priest of over 20 years:

[Paul Ray]

Wait a minute, wait a minute. Paul - you have been claiming that your old church, the Church of Christ, had true information - just not complete information. You have said that the Mormon church offered you more information which you added to what you already knew.

Yes, that is all true.

Please explain to me how a church of the devil (which you used to attend and which I do attend) can have incomplete truth when â??light and truth forsake that evil oneâ??.

Try thinking of it this way:

The church of Jesus Christ is the church led by Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ can lead people to ALL truth.

The â??church of the devilâ? is the church led by Satan and Satan can only lead people to some truthsâ?¦ such as when he uses deception and half-truths to mislead people instead sharing the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the whole truth.

And btw, truth isnâ??t the only thing the church of Christ should be seeking, because something can be true and still be bad, or evil. We should also seek after things that are good and virtuous that will help us become more like Jesus Christ.

Please explain how I can attend a church under the power of the devil, the Father of Lies, and have him as my shepherd and the one I worship - yet I can have incomplete truth.

See above. Do you really not see that a person led by Satan would only have incomplete truths?

Please explain why, if this church has some truth (though incomplete) it would be utterly destroyed.

Because that church (group of people) was not established and authorized by Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ has said that He will utterly destroy any church which He did not establish and authorize. And there is no good reason for allow counterfeit to remain.

All other churches help in a certain sense, because at least they teach some truths, but in another sense, they only muddy the waters. I would rather have all things crystal clear, personally.

Why join a church that has less than ALL truth?

And btw, if you believe you have more truth and goodness than we do, please feel free to share ALL that you have... preferably in some other thread(s).

I see nothing good you have that we do not have.

[Calm]

Don't claim membership in the church of the devil unless your organization meets the following criteria:

The major characteristics of the great and abominable church described in 1 Nephi may be listed as follows:

1. It persecutes, tortures, and slays the Saints of God. (See 1 Ne. 13:5.)

2. It seeks wealth and luxury. (See 1 Ne. 13:7â??8.)

3. It is characterized by sexual immorality. (See 1 Ne. 13:7.)

4. It has excised plain and precious things from the scriptures. (See 1 Ne. 13:26â??29.)

5. It has dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people. (See 1 Ne. 14:11.)

6. Its fate is to be consumed by a world war, when the nations it incites against the Saints war among themselves until the great and abominable church itself is destroyed. (See 1 Ne. 22:13â??14.)

http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menu..._&hideNav=1

One doesn't have to be a member of the GaA to be misled...perhaps by Satan, perhaps by other men, perhaps by one's own self-delusions and mistaken beliefs.

[Paul Ray]

It often helps me to use some other words to understand what others say. If I only use the same words, I sometimes miss some of the meaning.

The major characteristics of the great and abominable church described in 1 Nephi may be listed as follows:

1. It persecutes, tortures, and slays the Saints of God. (See 1 Ne. 13:5.)

The general idea is persecution. Torture and slaying are extreme forms of persecution, but you don't have to go to extremes to persecute. Giving somebody a "bad time" for their beliefs, by somehow ridiculing them, is a more common form of persecution.

2. It seeks wealth and luxury. (See 1 Ne. 13:7â??8.)

Pretty self explanatory, at least to me, but I think this applies to specific people. The whole church, or group of people, may not be doing that, but if an individual is, he/she is heading toward the "dark side"

3. It is characterized by sexual immorality. (See 1 Ne. 13:7.)

OIOW, a person who follows Satan is among the people who do not follow God's counsel regarding sexuality.

4. It has excised plain and precious things from the scriptures. (See 1 Ne. 13:26â??29.)

OIOW, a person who follows Satan is among the people who leave out or skip over some of the ideas God inspired his authorized servants to write down in their efforts to help other people know what God had to say in those specific ideas, as well as what God may inspire his authorized servants to write down in their efforts to help other people know what God has to say in those specific ideas, which would help people to know God better. The idea of what scripture is, and what is plain and precious, need to be understood before you can know what people are taking and taking away from.

5. It has dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people. (See 1 Ne. 14:11.)

OIOW, the church of Satan has power and authority among everyone on this planet... even among those who are influenced by God. The tares are growing where the wheat grows, basically. Even those of us on this website can feel the influence of Satan.

6. Its fate is to be consumed by a world war, when the nations it incites against the Saints war among themselves until the great and abominable church itself is destroyed. (See 1 Ne. 22:13â??14.)

Pretty much self-explanatory again, at least to me, but I think it's important to realize that only our Lord can remove Satan's influence. Other people can help our Lord, to a certain extent, on some level, but in the end, only the power of God can triumph over Satan.

http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menu..._&hideNav=1

[Calm]

While I agree with most of what you say, I think it's important to recognize a difference between those who fall under evil's influence on occasion and those who make a habit of it and that would include organizations to my mind.

One of my favourite quotes:

Who is righteous? Anyone who is repenting. No matter how bad he has been, if he is repenting, he is a righteous man. There is hope for him. And no matter how good he has been all his life, if he is not repenting, he is a wicked man. The difference is which way you are facing. The man on the top of the stairs facing down is much worse off than the man on the bottom step who is facing up. The direction we are facing, that is repentance; and that is what determines whether we are good or bad. (from "Of All Things" p. 7, a Hugh Nibley quote book edited by Gary Gillum, 2nd edition.)

http://www.lavalane.org/ponderit/2006/01/r...-with-good.html

Those who look into the doors of the church of the devil but remain outside are a different breed from those who are partying their souls out inside of it though it may be hard for us to discern the difference from time to time. I think it's more important to be worrying about keeping ourselves out of that congregation and in the one of the Lamb rather than spending our efforts pointing out suspects.

add-on: this is not to imply that I think nonLDS are hanging out at the Church of the Devil's front porch but resist going in, the metaphor was meant more along the lines of all of us on occasion have been tempted to look and some have liked the look so much that they've been persuaded to go inside; anyone of any religious persuasion might end up taking the lure).

[Paul Ray]

While I agree with most of what you say, I think it's important to recognize a difference between those who fall under evil's influence on occasion and those who make a habit of it and that would include organizations to my mind.

One of my favourite quotes:

http://www.lavalane.org/ponderit/2006/01/r...-with-good.html

Those who look into the doors of the church of the devil but remain outside are a different breed from those who are partying their souls out inside of it and it even may be hard for us to discern the difference from time to time. I think it's more important to be worrying about keeping ourselves out of that congregation and in the one of the Lamb rather than spending our efforts pointing out suspects.

I pretty much agree with all that you said.

I'll just revise what you said, in my own words;

When we do what is good, we are on the Lord's side.

When we do what is evil, we are on Satan's side.

If we repent from doing evil, and our Lord forgives us, we are then on the Lord's side, or again.

If we do not repent, we are still on Satan's side, and always will be unless or until we repent.

Repentance is simply a change of direction to go to or back to our Lord's side... for those who are or were going in the opposite direction.

[Freedom in Truth]

"And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth

out of obscurity and out of darkness

, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individuallyâ??"

- D&C 1:30

"His disciples said to him, 'When will the kingdom come?'

Jesus said, 'It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be a matter of saying â??here it is' or â??there it is'. Rather

the kingdom of the father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it.

'"

- The Gospel of Thomas, verse 113

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a lit match dropped into a barrel of oil.

So the passages I posted metaphorically talk about the "church of the devil", the "apostate church" the "abominable church", yet they literally talk about the "church of the lamb of God"?

Wouldn't it be reasonable that if the pope is the anti Christ that the Church he leads would be on the side of the antichrist?

Food for thought from an ex-Catholic priest of over 20 years:

Sounds reasonable to me.

[Freedom in Truth]

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Please explain to me how a church of the devil (which you used to attend and which I do attend) can have incomplete truth when â??light and truth forsake that evil oneâ??.

Paul - Try thinking of it this way:

The church of Jesus Christ is the church led by Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ can lead people to ALL truth.

The â??church of the devilâ? is the church led by Satan and Satan can only lead people to some truthsâ?¦ such as when he uses deception and half-truths to mislead people instead sharing the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the whole truth.

What does â??forsakeâ? mean? What is Satanâ??s goal and why?

And btw, truth isnâ??t the only thing the church of Christ should be seeking, because something can be true and still be bad, or evil. We should also seek after things that are good and virtuous that will help us become more like Jesus Christ.

I am using the word â??truthâ? to mean Godâ??s Truth. I seek Godâ??s Truth. Perhaps a â??badâ? truth would be knowing that rebelling against God will deeply hurt you? I need to know that Truth so I WONâ??T think rebelling is harmless to me.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Please explain how I can attend a church under the power of the devil, the Father of Lies, and have him as my shepherd and the one I worship - yet I can have incomplete truth.

Paul - See above. Do you really not see that a person led by Satan would only have incomplete truths?

I see that Satan mixes truth with lies. Can the person receiving the mixture sift it out?

If I am in the church led by Satan and he is my shepherd and the one I worship wouldnâ??t I be hearing from Satan and not God?

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Please explain why, if this church has some truth (though incomplete) it would be utterly destroyed.

Paul - Because that church (group of people) was not established and authorized by Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ has said that He will utterly destroy any church which He did not establish and authorize. And there is no good reason for allow counterfeit to remain.

All other churches help in a certain sense, because at least they teach some truths, but in another sense, they only muddy the waters. I would rather have all things crystal clear, personally.

Why join a church that has less than ALL truth?

So if I do not have ALL truth I will be destroyed? Is salvation based on knowledge - information known? Is that what I need - the essential knowledge?

And btw, if you believe you have more truth and goodness than we do, please feel free to share ALL that you have... preferably in some other thread(s).

Is that what saves - truth and goodness?

I have been somewhat on â??JS and the Occultâ? - I havenâ??t seen you.

I see nothing good you have that we do not have.

I know.

[Freedom in Truth]

Don't claim membership in the church of the devil unless your organization meets the following criteria:http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menu..._&hideNav=1

One doesn't have to be a member of the GaA to be misled...perhaps by Satan, perhaps by other men, perhaps by one's own self-delusions and mistaken beliefs.

What is â??GaAâ?? But, no - the BoM is quite clear - if Iâ??m not in the Mormon church I am in the Devilâ??s church. And, if Iâ??m in the Mormon church I am not in the Devilâ??s church.

[Freedom in Truth]

I pretty much agree with all that you said.

I'll just revise what you said, in my own words;

When we do what is good, we are on the Lord's side.

When we do what is evil, we are on Satan's side.

If we repent from doing evil, and our Lord forgives us, we are then on the Lord's side, or again.

If we do not repent, we are still on Satan's side, and always will be unless or until we repent.

Repentance is simply a change of direction to go to or back to our Lord's side... for those who are or were going in the opposite direction.

Are you meaning to say that anyone who does good is on the Lord's side?

Since most of us do good and evil daily, are you saying we switch from the Lord's side to Satan's side (or visa versa) many times every day? Wow - we better pray we die in a moment when we are on the Lord's side.

Or is this not what you're saying?

[Paul Ray]

What does â??forsakeâ? mean? What is Satanâ??s goal and why?

Forsake means to turn away from. It has the same basic meaning as repentance.

Satan's goal is to convince us we can do what we want to do and there will be no consequences... as long as we don't get caught. And he tries to convince us we can avoid getting caught because there are no eternal consequences.... either because God will simply forgive us (without repentance) or because there really is no God to answer to.

And the why is because Satan wants to limit our progression... because he is also limited in his progression and he wants us to be as much like him as possible.

I am using the word â??truthâ? to mean Godâ??s Truth. I seek Godâ??s Truth. Perhaps a â??badâ? truth would be knowing that rebelling against God will deeply hurt you? I need to know that Truth so I WONâ??T think rebelling is harmless to me.

I want to know all truth and I don't limit the definition of truth... as long as it's true.

God knows what is good and also what is evil, so God's truth is God's knowledge of everything.

I see that Satan mixes truth with lies. Can the person receiving the mixture sift it out?

Yes, but only if that person knows what the truth really is.

... he/she would have to be able to separate the truths from the lies.

If I am in the church led by Satan and he is my shepherd and the one I worship wouldnâ??t I be hearing from Satan and not God?

You would be hearing from Satan (that part is true), but you would still be hearing from God also... unless God has totally given up on you. And I don't believe God ever gives up on any of us.

I believe Satan even continues to hear from God from time to time, and he simply ignores what God tries to teach him... or he uses the information he gets for some of his own purposes.

So if I do not have ALL truth I will be destroyed?

No. You will simply be limited by the limited amount of truth you accept.

Is salvation based on knowledge - information known?

Yes, combined with what you do with the knowledge you have.

Is that what I need - the essential knowledge?

To receive salvation you need to know what to do to be saved.

Is that what saves - truth and goodness?

Yes, pretty much. You are saved when you do what you know you need to do to be saved.

... at which point you will have accepted a level of truth and goodness within you, personally.

And, of course, Jesus Christ is the source and exemplar for all of us who are then saved.

I have been somewhat on â??JS and the Occultâ? - I havenâ??t seen you.

I'm not interested in discussing that topic... but I do like some things I have read.

I (Paul) said: I can't see anything good you have that we do not have.

Freedom of Truth replied: I know

Why don't you try telling me about something good you have that (you believe) we (LDS) do not have?

Are you just going to leave me without (what you perceive to be) a greater understanding of God and God's goodness?

I'm trying to share what I know with you because I believe I have more to offer you than you know.

If you think you have more to offer me, why don't you try offering me at least a little of that?

I simply can't see anything good you have that we (LDS) do not have, so it might help if you point some good things out to me.

... instead of pointing out what you, personally, believe to be faults.

[Paul Ray]

Are you meaning to say that anyone who does good is on the Lord's side?

Yes, if they are only doing that which is good.

Since most of us do good and evil daily, are you saying we switch from the Lord's side to Satan's side (or visa versa) many times every day?

Yes.

If we do something evil, and then fully repent, we are then back on the Lord's side at that moment.

It takes less than a second to repent, you know. There is no good reason to ever delay.

We just need to know what to do to be saved... and we just need to know to trust God.

Wow - we better pray we die in a moment when we are on the Lord's side.

Heh. Of course! I would never want to die while on Satan's side.

And I would never want to live while on Satan's side, either.

Or is this not what you're saying?

Let me know if what I said still isn't clear to you.

[Tsuzuki]

So the passages I posted metaphorically talk about the "church of the devil", the "apostate church" the "abominable church", yet they literally talk about the "church of the lamb of God"?

Yes. Because the church of the devil is divided against itself, and does not have a literal focal point to represent it on the earth. It is the tares mixed in with the wheat.

[Freedom in Truth]

Forsake means to turn away from. It has the same basic meaning as repentance.

â??light and truth forsake -â??turn away fromâ?? - that evil oneâ? (D&C 93:37)

D&C 93:39a â??And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth,â?

Satan gives me some truth, yet he takes away truth? And, light and truth turn away from Satan? This isnâ??t exactly making sense.

Satan's goal is to convince us we can do what we want to do and there will be no consequences... as long as we don't get caught. And he tries to convince us we can avoid getting caught because there are no eternal consequences.... either because God will simply forgive us (without repentance) or because there really is no God to answer to.

I think you only have a piece of it here. You must think Christians like me think we can do anything without consequences, right? That is one of Satanâ??s lies Christians like me believe, right?

And the why is because Satan wants to limit our progression... because he is also limited in his progression and he wants us to be as much like him as possible.

Whatâ??s Satanâ??s motive? Just revenge?

I want to know all truth and I don't limit the definition of truth... as long as it's true.

If itâ??s Truth, then it is Godâ??s Truth. Truth comes from God.

God knows what is good and also what is evil, so God's truth is God's knowledge of everything.

Right.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

I see that Satan mixes truth with lies. Can the person receiving the mixture sift it out?

Paul - Yes, but only if that person knows what the truth really is

... he/she would have to be able to separate the truths from the lies.

Right - so someone only receiving the mixture and not the pure Truth wouldnâ??t be able to sift the truth from the lies without help.

You would be hearing from Satan (that part is true), but you would still be hearing from God also... unless God has totally given up on you. And I don't believe God ever gives up on any of us.

I believe Satan even continues to hear from God from time to time, and he simply ignores what God tries to teach him... or he uses the information he gets for some of his own purposes.

So my partial truths (in your opinion) could be from Satan, or could be truths from God that I then put with information from Satan, right?

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

So if I do not have ALL truth I will be destroyed?

Paul - No. You will simply be limited by the limited amount of truth you accept.

How do you figure that when I am a member of the church that is going to be destroyed?

1 Nephi 14:10 â??And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.â?

This is me - I belong to that church of the devil, the mother of abominations, the whore of all the earth.

Alma 5:39 â??And now if ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd, of what fold are ye? Behold, I say unto you, that the devil is your shepherd, and ye are of his fold; and now, who can deny this? Behold, I say unto you, whosoever denieth this is a liar and a child of the devil.â?

This is me - I am in the fold of the devil. And if you deny this you are a liar and a child of the devil.

D&C 29:21a â??And the great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall be cast down by devouring fire,â?

This is me - I will be cast down by devouring fire.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Is salvation based on knowledge - information known?

Paul - Yes, combined with what you do with the knowledge you have.

O-K, I think we really part ways here - but before I possibly jump to conclusions I will ask - what is the knowledge and information needed?

To receive salvation you need to know what to do to be saved.

And what exactly must be done to be saved?

Yes, pretty much. You are saved when you do what you know you need to do to be saved.

... at which point you will have accepted a level of truth and goodness within you, personally.

And, of course, Jesus Christ is the source and exemplar for all of us who are then saved.

So salvation is knowing the right information and doing those things needed to be done to be saved? How many things? What is enough? And what is the goal of salvation?

Why don't you try telling me about something good you have that (you believe) we (LDS) do not have?

I have. You often do not respond to those parts. I donâ??t know if you donâ??t listen or donâ??t agree.

Are you just going to leave me without (what you perceive to be) a greater understanding of God and God's goodness?

I thought you knew everything I know, since you were once yourself a part of the Devilâ??s church. But I have shared, as I have said above. I will gladly share again.

I'm trying to share what I know with you because I believe I have more to offer you than you know.

If you think you have more to offer me, why don't you try offering me at least a little of that?

Gladly. But I want to wait until your reply to this post just in case I am misunderstanding you (as I have said).