How Can We Know When We Hear

[Freedom in Truth]

I'll tell you what I think, since you did not ask me, personally.

I think the church of the devil includes all the people who the devil has deceived and kept from at least some of the truth the true church of Christ knows all about... while knowing that those things are true.

For example, the true church of Christ knows A, B, C and D are true because Christ has revealed the truth of A, B, C and D to members of His church through authorized representatives.

The church of the devil may know about A, B and C, and they may even know about D, but they do not know that those things are true, and they try to suppress at least some of those things... because they do not believe that those things are true.

And notice that this can work both ways.

The church of the devil can believe that they have all the truth, and they can really see things as they are. And at least some of those people can believe only A is the truth, while they either don't know about B, C, and/or D, or believe they're all false.

The main thought though is that the church of the devil is in opposition to the true church of Christ. The people in one church may agree with some of the other church's beliefs, but they do not agree on all things.

Only the true church of Christ is in total agreement, or one, on every issue, and the greatest persons in that church know everything.

This is what I think - both churches (church of Christ - body of Christ, and church of the devil - other various names) are metaphorical. People of both groups are found in all organizations/churches. Just because one attends church doesnâ??t make one a Christian - just like sitting in a garage doesnâ??t make one a car. And there are those who may not be in any church who are part of the body of Christ.

Itâ??s not based on knowledge - itâ??s based on RELATIONSHIP. Who is walking with God? Who has a humble spirit? Who is learning at His feet? Who loves Him and worships Him and trusts Him? Who has the understandings born from relationship - understandings of who He is and who they are? Who has a heart for Him? At the entrance gates of heaven (so to speak) there is no entrance exam - it will be who you know and Whom you are known by. Will God say, â??Hey - I know you!â? or will He say, â??Who are you?â? No entrance exam, and no ticket for admission.

[Freedom in Truth]

QUOTE(Paul Ray @ May 17 2007, 08:38 AM)

Only the true church of Christ is in total agreement, or one, on every issue, and the greatest persons in that church know everything.

I disagree.

I disagree too, which mean that Tsuzuki and I agree!!

[Freedom in Truth]

Let's not confuse the two. The church of the devil is not a real church, it is a metaphor for the wicked. There are wicked people in Mormonism just as there are everywhere else. There are also righteous people everywhere else just as there are in Mormonism. The church of the lamb of God consists of all the righteous in the world, while the church of the devil consists of all the wicked. They are both metaphors. However, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the current focal point of righteousness on the earth today, so it represents the church of the lamb of God on the earth. The church of the devil is divided, so it has no earthly representation except in the individual lives of the wicked.

I agree that they are both metaphors - I disagree that the LDS church is the focal point of righteousness.

[Freedom in Truth]

Why?

It's a very important question. It's a difficult question to answer honestly. It is also a revealing question.

[Freedom in Truth]

I live in godhood right now, so no, it wouldn't change anything.

Well, on the one hand, I share your concept that what many think happens after death begins NOW and continues after death. I am walking with God NOW.

On the other hand, I'm not seeing your world, your authority, your spirit children, etc.

Because there's a test at the end.

No test - RELATIONSHIP!!!

[Freedom in Truth]

Btw, just so you know, I wasn't thinking of you, specifically, when I said that.

It probably would have been better if I had said that in response to FIT's post.

People who have a form of godliess but deny the power of becoming godly puzzle me.

I know who I am and who I am not. If you could just catch a glimpse of the Infinite Holiness and Gloriousness and Majesty and Power and Wisdom of God you would not mix yourself up with Him. But you have smallified Him and exalted yourself (remember the ant story?) You live in a cave and think the sun is the beam of a flashlight, and you won't follow someone out of the cave and look at the real, beautiful, radiant, colorful, warm SUN.

[structurecop]

I know who I am and who I am not. If you could just catch a glimpse of the Infinite Holiness and Gloriousness and Majesty and Power and Wisdom of God you would not mix yourself up with Him. But you have smallified Him and exalted yourself (remember the ant story?) You live in a cave and think the sun is the beam of a flashlight, and you won't follow someone out of the cave and look at the real, beautiful, radiant, colorful, warm SUN.

Looking at shiny things is only impressive for so long... a God of real greatness would find a way to exalt his children in this life and the next.

[Paul Ray]

I know who I am and who I am not.

I do too, and I also know what I can be.

If you could just catch a glimpse of the Infinite Holiness and Gloriousness and Majesty and Power and Wisdom of God you would not mix yourself up with Him.

Pfftt. Oh, please.

It is because I see how awesome and wonderful God is that I want to be like God, my brother.

... and I know God has made that possible for me.

Who else would I want to "mix myself up with" when I can become like God?

What do you have to offer that is better?

What do you think of when you think of being "saved"?

What are you being saved from, exactly?

Who else would you rather be like than God?

What God is better than the God I worship?

... and btw, worship is a form of emulation.

But you have smallified Him and exalted yourself (remember the ant story?) You live in a cave and think the sun is the beam of a flashlight, and you won't follow someone out of the cave and look at the real, beautiful, radiant, colorful, warm SUN.

Sounds like what you are doing to me.

You seem to think God can't help you become like God... as if that is something God simply can't do.

[Paul Ray]

No test - RELATIONSHIP!!!

The test will test the degree of faithfulness in our relationhip to God.

What do and will you do to show your true love for God?

[Paul Ray]

I agree that they are both metaphors - I disagree that the LDS church is the focal point of righteousness.

We (LDS) believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has God's authorized representatives who reveal God's will to all of us now on this Earth at this time. It comes directly from Jesus Christ to our authorized leaders. Anyone else on this planet can also receive revelations for themselves to know the truth for themselves, but all of our revelations from God will or should agree with all of the revelations of God to God's authorized reprensentatives, if we are all hearing from God, personally.

You can disagree if you want to, but that will not change what is true. Some things are true whether you believe them or not.

[Tsuzuki]

I disagree too, which mean that Tsuzuki and I agree!!

Not necessarily.

I agree that they are both metaphors - I disagree that the LDS church is the focal point of righteousness.

That's fine.

It's a very important question. It's a difficult question to answer honestly. It is also a revealing question.

Any answer that can be put into words will by nature be inadequate to convey the true meaning behind it. Therefore, it is more important to listen carefully so that the meaning can be discerned.

[Paul Ray]

This is what I think - both churches (church of Christ - body of Christ, and church of the devil - other various names) are metaphorical. People of both groups are found in all organizations/churches. Just because one attends church doesnâ??t make one a Christian - just like sitting in a garage doesnâ??t make one a car. And there are those who may not be in any church who are part of the body of Christ.

Itâ??s not based on knowledge - itâ??s based on RELATIONSHIP. Who is walking with God? Who has a humble spirit? Who is learning at His feet? Who loves Him and worships Him and trusts Him? Who has the understandings born from relationship - understandings of who He is and who they are? Who has a heart for Him? At the entrance gates of heaven (so to speak) there is no entrance exam - it will be who you know and Whom you are known by. Will God say, â??Hey - I know you!â? or will He say, â??Who are you?â? No entrance exam, and no ticket for admission.

I think you mixing a lot of truths with untruths, and I don't believe you are intending to do that.

I'll just mention some of the points that I do agree with in accordance with my own beliefs.

I believe the church of Christ includes every person who follows Jesus Christ, to the extent that they follow Jesus Christ personally, regardless of any other sub-group a person may be involved with. The sub-group(s) can be anything from a small group with just a few members to an organization with many millions of members, but in effect it is a sub-group of the whole church of Jesus Christ which includes every person who follows Jesus Christ, personally.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is in effect a sub-group with God's authorized representatives who are authorized to teach absolutely everyone everything God has revealed and will now reveal to all of us on this planet, collectively... just like the apostles who lived in and soon after the days of our Lord's mortal ministry were a sub-group authorized to teach all people in their day. Our Lord didn't pick 12 apostles to teach just some of the people who were living on this planet then. He authorized 12 apostles to go teach the whole world... and he told the 12 apostles he chose on the American continent (another sub-group) that they were subject to those 12 apostles in the Jerusalem area.

... and btw, everything taught by the true church of Jesus Christ was and still is in agreement, although some of the rules do not apply to us. For example, the people of God (church) back in Mose's day (another sub-group) were told to offer animal sacrifices, and today we are told to no longer do that.

In contrast, the church of the devil consists of many sub-groups with doctrines that conflict with doctrines from each other as well as with doctrines the church of Christ is teaching. It is made up of people who individually do not accept all of our Lord's teachings when they hear and have heard them.

The mission of the church of Jesus Christ is to teach the whole world and gather all of Israel together... or as many who will come together.

I can now see that I was once a member of the "church of the devil" even though I was personally following Jesus Christ while I was in it, and I only got out of that sub-group of the devil's church because I accepted more truths that the true church of Christ had to teach me. I had already accepted some truths, and I didn't even know about some other truths, until I was taught by members of the true church of Jesus Christ.

I think it's as simple as that.

[Freedom in Truth]

I think Christians like you think what you think because you think what you think makes sense, and you think it is God who is helping you to make sense out of it... and I agree with that. But just because something makes sense doesn't mean it is true. I think you should ask God to answer your specific questions, and pay attention to what God tells you, exactly. It is very easy to form a misunderstanding.

I think many truths do not make sense to our â??ant-brainsâ?.

Why do you tell me over and over to ask God when I tell you I know God and learn from Him?

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Yes, but I have different reasons/a different motivation for repentance than you do.

Paul - I don't think so. I think I have your reason in addition to many other reasons to repent.

I know there are good, better and best reasons, and I have all of them.

Your additional reasons change the whole picture and change the motivation of your heart.

You missed my meaning. I was trying to convey the idea that Satan has passionate feelings for wanting us to be like him (Satan), and I believe those feelings are just as passionate as God's feelings for wanting us to be like him (God... our Father, our Lord, and/or the Holy Ghost). I know those passionate feelings are total opposites of each other, but I don't think Satan necessarily believes he really hates us. All who truly know what love is, would know it is hatred, but to Satan, it might be considered his love, in his own way. I hope you now know what I meant.

Satan is not Godâ??s opposite, nor is he Christâ??s opposite. He does not want us to be like him - he doesnâ??t care about us. He wants us to be enslaved to him. He is a destroyer.

I am seeing more of your world - smallify God to exalt man, and make Satan not such a bad guy in the process. Well, he canâ??t be so bad to you - he is Jesusâ?? brother, Godâ??s son, and your brother as well.

Answer this question:. Do you think Satan tries to fool people by pretending to be God?

Yes - he deceives people and wants them to believe he is God.

I think he does. Some people would never worship Satan, if they really knew who he was, but Satan wants all of us to worship him, only, so he has to use the tactic of deception to try to make people think he is God.

I totally agree. Many people would never worship Satan if they knew that that was what they were doing. And that is an amazing thought because it means that many people have a sense of good and evil and do not want to be associated with evil. That is why Satan has to present a mixture of truth and lies. But, he knows what entices us and he slips those thoughts in. Wouldnâ??t it be great to believe you were a good person following God and believe that God wants you to be rich and famous in this world? Wouldnâ??t it be great to believe that you could control God and get just what you want by knowing exactly how to pray? And, wouldnâ??t it be great to believe that you were going to someday be a god and reign in power and be worshiped?

But, other people are enticed by evil - they want the dark side, the rebellion. Satan doesnâ??t have to be deceptive to these people.

Why do you think I think you are a sheep of the devil?

I think you simply don't know some things that I know about God and what God reveals.

I don't think your ignorance makes you a sheep of the devil.

I think you just need to keep learning from God.

I think you should consider me a sheep of the devil. I am not ignorant of what you believe.

And I suppose you think you were baptized by people who were authorized to baptize you, too, huh.

I view baptism from a Hebraic perspective, so your comment doesnâ??t really make sense.

I think the scriptures help to give me ideas I might not otherwise have without them, so pardon me if I continue to read scriptures.

Then why do you never tell me to read the scriptures?

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

So salvation is about me. Doing the right things with Godâ??s help so I can be all I can be.

Paul - Yes. You are among those who need to be saved.

Me, me, me - my career in the nice company. I donâ??t want a career - I want a Father. Salvation allows me to walk with God. Itâ??s about GOD - I get to walk with God and be in His presence, not He gets to help my career.

[Freedom in Truth]

I beleive we will be judged by all of our actions.

I believe books will be opened on the day of our judgment.

I believe that if I do not repent for a sin, or wrong action, I will be held accountable.

I believe there is a Book of Life as well. I believe if your name isnâ??t in that book then you better have a perfect score, and no one can have a perfect score. Itâ??s pass-fail, not grading on a curve.

I believe the only way to be forgiven is through repentance... as well as by accepting Jesus Christ as my Lord.

And why do you need or want forgiveness? Is it just a tally mark on the good side? Do you need to accept Jesus as you Lord just to get forgiveness for original sin?

I repent to do what is right... to fix my mistakes and move on.

I believe that is what my Lord and Father expect out of me.

It sounds like you repent to obey God, but youâ??re missing WHY God wants you to obey. Why do you think He wants you to repent? Why do you think He wants you to do what is right? To earn godhood?

I believe that if you do something for a wrong reason, then you are not doing something good.

Helping my neighbor is a good act. Feeding the hungry is a good act. I am doing good things when I do them, even if I am doing them to look good so I can win the next election.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Many bad things have long-lasting ramifications - they leave scars.

Paul - ... kinda like tallies on a score card, maybe?

No, not like tallies on a score card. The tally is moved from the bad side to the good side if you repent. So a tally on a score card on the good side can have a scar associated with it.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

The guy who hits his child in a fit of rage and cripples her can be forgiven by God, his child, his wife and family, etc. - but his actions will never be forgotten.

Paul - I agree... unless and/or until God forgets and is somehow able to help us forget about it.

God can bring good out of any situation, and it can be good that we never forget - that may help stop us from ever doing the action again. I donâ??t believe God forgets anything, and I donâ??t believe He suddenly â??remembersâ? something either.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

If you have a son, does he switch from being your son to not being your son depending on whether or not he is obeying you? Of course not. He is your son whether he is obeying you or not. He is on your â??sideâ? because he is your son and you are a family. He will defend you - he is your son.

Paul - Yes, but a good Father will still somehow disciple his own son.

Thatâ??s not the point. The point is your son is always your son, regardless of his moment by moment actions.

And when a Father disciplines his son his son is still his son.

You only stay on the devil's side if you do not repent... and repentance is possible in the life hereafter.

Oh, then you donâ??t have to worry about repenting - you only have to repent to get those tallies.

I believe all of us will stand before God on the day of judgment... even if only to get a pat on the back.

Well done, my faithful servant. Enter into the glory of your Lord.

That is pretty much all I expect out of it.

I expect a fuller relationship with God than I have now. After all, we are in the shadowlands at this point.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

It is a RELATIONSHIP with a Father, a Lover - you are the BRIDE of Christ.

Paul - Awe, shucks.

Yes, you are the Bride of Christ.

[Freedom in Truth]

Looking at shiny things is only impressive for so long... a God of real greatness would find a way to exalt his children in this life and the next.

Maybe God has something way better for us than exaltation. Are you thinking as man thinks, or as God thinks?

[Freedom in Truth]

We (LDS) believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has God's authorized representatives who reveal God's will to all of us now on this Earth at this time. It comes directly from Jesus Christ to our authorized leaders. Anyone else on this planet can also receive revelations for themselves to know the truth for themselves, but all of our revelations from God will or should agree with all of the revelations of God to God's authorized reprensentatives, if we are all hearing from God, personally.

You can disagree if you want to, but that will not change what is true. Some things are true whether you believe them or not.

I know you believe this.

Yes, believing in something doesn't make it true. And, NOT believing something doesn't make it false.

[Paul Ray]

I think many truths do not make sense to our â??ant-brainsâ?.

God can always give us more wisdom to help us.

Why do you tell me over and over to ask God when I tell you I know God and learn from Him?

It's a habit, I guess. It's the best advice I know how to offer.

Your additional reasons change the whole picture and change the motivation of your heart.

Yes, but since I believe they are all good reasons they are only helping to make the picture better.

Satan is not Godâ??s opposite, nor is he Christâ??s opposite.

It's Good vs Evil. Think again.

He does not want us to be like him - he doesnâ??t care about us.

Doesn't care about us? Then why doesn't he just leave us alone?

I think he is very interested in our eternal progression, and he wants us to go a certain way.

He wants us to be enslaved to him. He is a destroyer.

That doesn't sound like someone who just doesn't care about us, to me.

And btw, you would hear a different story from Satan, if you asked him, personally.

I believe all your views are biased. In a sense, you are prejudiced.

We just happen to both agree it is better to follow God.

I am seeing more of your world - smallify God to exalt man, and make Satan not such a bad guy in the process. Well, he canâ??t be so bad to you - he is Jesusâ?? brother, Godâ??s son, and your brother as well.

You ain't seen nothin yet, brotha. Some eyes have not seen what await those who love God.

Yes - he deceives people and wants them to believe he is God.

... and.... say it with me, now... he also tells people that only he can be God.

I totally agree. Many people would never worship Satan if they knew that that was what they were doing. And that is an amazing thought because it means that many people have a sense of good and evil and do not want to be associated with evil. That is why Satan has to present a mixture of truth and lies.

And it seems to work very well, too, doesn't it. All kinds of people think conficting beliefs are true.

But, he knows what entices us and he slips those thoughts in. Wouldnâ??t it be great to believe you were a good person following God and believe that God wants you to be rich and famous in this world?

Some people seem to think so. What do you think?

Do you think all other people really care about what you think about something?

Wouldnâ??t it be great to believe that you could control God and get just what you want by knowing exactly how to pray?

Some people seem to think that too.

And, wouldnâ??t it be great to believe that you were going to someday be a god and reign in power and be worshiped?

Yes, it is great. And it also helps to have God tell me it is true.

But, other people are enticed by evil - they want the dark side, the rebellion. Satan doesnâ??t have to be deceptive to these people.

Yeah. Easy pickins.

I think you should consider me a sheep of the devil. I am not ignorant of what you believe.

Okay. It is done. That was easy.

I view baptism from a Hebraic perspective, so your comment doesnâ??t really make sense.

Try asking God to give you some more wisdom.

Then why do you never tell me to read the scriptures?

1) I figure you're already smart enough to know that you need to.

2) Reading scriptures alone will not tell you what is true.

3) I would rather tell you to talk to God, to learn from Him, personally.

I think we all do what we believe will work best.

Me, me, me - my career in the nice company. I donâ??t want a career - I want a Father.

I am your father.

tip: It works best if you imagine some heavy breathing.

And btw, I do have a Father. Do you know who my Father is.

I know you think you do, but do you really? Really, truly?

Salvation allows me to walk with God. Itâ??s about GOD - I get to walk with God and be in His presence, not He gets to help my career.

He does both for me. It is awesome to have God as my Father.

[Freedom in Truth]

Any answer that can be put into words will by nature be inadequate to convey the true meaning behind it. Therefore, it is more important to listen carefully so that the meaning can be discerned.

I agree - words can come up short. But we have to try. And, unfortunately, we do not have voice tone, body language, etc. to go with the words. But, we try.

[Paul Ray]

I agree - words can come up short. But we have to try. And, unfortunately, we do not have voice tone, body language, etc. to go with the words. But, we try.

Use more smilies.

I think it helps a LOT to have a sense of humor.

... while trying to look at everything from God's perspective.

[Freedom in Truth]

Paul - And it doesnâ??t matter what you personally get out of all that you have???

What does that mean, exactly?

Freedom in Truth - That means that I will love God and follow Him no matter what. It means that I will give up all I have if it comes to that. It means that I donâ??t need promises of rewards or godhood or mansions or authority or ANYTHING to worship Him and follow Him.

Thatâ??s what it means. Can you relate to that at all? If you found out that there is no godhood or any kind of reward that you are imagining, would you still love, worship, and follow God? Or are you only following Him for what you believe you will personally get out of it?

Answer carefully please.

You didn't answer, Paul. Perhaps you are still thinking, but I didn't want you to forget the question.

[TrashcanMan79]

Post 700 here we come!

[Sethbag]

I don't really have anything to add to this thread, I just thought it would be cool to get in on the thirty-fifth page. Sheesh people!

[Paul Ray]

Paul - And it doesnâ??t matter what you personally get out of all that you have???

What does that mean, exactly?

Freedom in Truth - That means that I will love God and follow Him no matter what. It means that I will give up all I have if it comes to that. It means that I donâ??t need promises of rewards or godhood or mansions or authority or ANYTHING to worship Him and follow Him.

Thatâ??s what it means. Can you relate to that at all? If you found out that there is no godhood or any kind of reward that you are imagining, would you still love, worship, and follow God? Or are you only following Him for what you believe you will personally get out of it?

Answer carefully please.

You didn't answer, Paul. Perhaps you are still thinking, but I didn't want you to forget the question.

Oh, okay. I didn't realize you wanted my answer to this question, and in writing.

... but now that I do... here I go:

:clears throat, stands up straight, and pays careful attention:

(it would be nice to have a smiley like that)

Yes, I can relate to all that. I will love God and follow God no matter what too.

... unless God tells me to do something I think is evil, of course.

... well, wait a minute, yes, even then. I would do anything God asks me to do, or believe.

... as long as I was and am sure at that time that it was and is God speaking to me.

... because, if it was and is God, then it would not be evil, after all.

... because God might then be counting it as righteousness, like he did for Abraham.

So, yes, I will love God and follow Him no matter what.

I will give up all I have if God asks me to do that.

I donâ??t need promises of rewards or godhood or mansions or authority or ANYTHING to worship Him and follow Him.

I would just need to know it was and is God who was and is speaking to me, personally.

... and since I know I can have that, and I do in fact have that, I will do and believe anything that God tells me.

... or at least I'll give it my best shot, and keep on trying until I get it all down.

How did I do, brother?

Did I pass your test?

And btw, this kinda reminds me of one of my favorite sayings in a movie.

Have you ever seen Second Hand Lions?

Some things are worth believing just because they're worth believing in.

It really doesn't matter if the're true or not.

... or something kinda sorta like that.

edit: Here is the quote:

Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things that a man needs

to believe in the most.

That people are basically good;

that honour...courage and virtue mean everything;

that power and money, money and power, mean nothing;

that good always triumphs over evil;

and I want you to remember this,

that love... true love... never dies.

You remember that, boy.

You remember that.

Doesn't matter if it's true or not. You see,

a man should believe in those things, because...

those are the things worth believing in.

... and btw, that was just a little piece, or a bit, of the "man talk"

There is more, and I know where to get it.

[Paul Ray]

I don't really have anything to add to this thread, I just thought it would be cool to get in on the thirty-fifth page. Sheesh people!

I'm guessing 40 will be the magic number.

[Selah]

Yeah Baby!!!! I get to make the 700th post! Whoo Hoo!!!! While adding absolutely nothing to the discussion. Sorry Mods but I couldn't resist