How Can We Know When We Hear

[Paul Ray]

â??light and truth forsake -â??turn away fromâ?? - that evil oneâ? (D&C 93:37)

D&C 93:39a â??And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth,â?

Satan gives me some truth, yet he takes away truth?

Yes. Satan will tell us some truths, such as in a half-truth, to try to keep us away from the whole truth about an issue, and he will try to take away the truths we do accept by trying to get us to believe another lie.

He works on us all a little bit at a time... if we aren't careful and/or let him get away with something.

And, light and truth turn away from Satan? This isnâ??t exactly making sense.

It may help to think of Satan turning away from light and truth, rather than light and truth turning away from Satan, but light and truth do turn away from Satan, in a sense. Light and truth do not lead us to Satan.

You must think Christians like me think we can do anything without consequences, right?

No. Who or what would make you think I believe something like that?

That is one of Satanâ??s lies Christians like me believe, right?

What lie are you talking about, exactly?

I believe you believe we need to repent from all of our sins as soon as we know what our sins are.

Whatâ??s Satanâ??s motive? Just revenge?

Did you hear what I said to you? He wants us to be as much like him as possible.

In his own way you might say he loves us. He wants us to be as much like him as we can be.

We often think that he hates us, but to him it's his love. And what we call evil, he calls good.

If itâ??s Truth, then it is Godâ??s Truth. Truth comes from God.

Right.

Right.

Right - so someone only receiving the mixture and not the pure Truth wouldnâ??t be able to sift the truth from the lies without help.

Right. And God is always there to help us if we ask God for help.

The danger is in relying on people other than God.

So my partial truths (in your opinion) could be from Satan, or could be truths from God that I then put with information from Satan, right?

That's a possibility.

I don't know where you are getting all of your information, but I do know you don't know everything.

... including some of the things that I know God has taught me.

How do you figure that when I am a member of the church that is going to be destroyed?

1 Nephi 14:10 â??And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.â?

This is me - I belong to that church of the devil, the mother of abominations, the whore of all the earth.

Alma 5:39 â??And now if ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd, of what fold are ye? Behold, I say unto you, that the devil is your shepherd, and ye are of his fold; and now, who can deny this? Behold, I say unto you, whosoever denieth this is a liar and a child of the devil.â?

This is me - I am in the fold of the devil. And if you deny this you are a liar and a child of the devil.

D&C 29:21a â??And the great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall be cast down by devouring fire,â?

This is me - I will be cast down by devouring fire.

Okay. Do you honestly believe what you are saying?

If you do belong to the church of the devil, and you are in the fold of the devil, then of course you will among those who are cast down by devouring fire.

... unless you someday get out of that church and join the true church of Christ.

O-K, I think we really part ways here - but before I possibly jump to conclusions I will ask - what is the knowledge and information needed?

Why ask me? Go to God and ask God what God wants you to know and do.

Why would you ever trust what I tell you?

Ask God.

And what exactly must be done to be saved?

Are you asking me what I believe, personally?

I believe you must accept Jesus Christ as your Lord, which means accepting everything that he tells you... either personally or through the power of the Holy Ghost.

If he ever tells you to believe [something], and you know it's from God, then I think you should believe what God tells you.

If he ever tells you to repent... or to stop doing something and go in the other direction... then I think you should do that. Just do it.

That is pretty much everything in a nutshell. Just follow God.

... even if he tells you to join a specific group of people and allow some of them to baptize you in water and... some other stuff God tells you to accept.

So salvation is knowing the right information and doing those things needed to be done to be saved?

Yes.

How many things? What is enough?

Whatever God tells you. Accept it all.

And what is the goal of salvation?

To be what you can't be without God to help you. To be all that God knows you can be.

I thought you knew everything I know, since you were once yourself a part of the Devilâ??s church.

I know what I believed when I was a member of an organization called the "Church of Christ", and I pretty much know what that organization and other organizations teach the general public, but I've never believed that all the people who are members of those organizations are members of what you call the "Devil's church".

A church is a group of people, and only one group is led by God. The other group, I believe, is deceived.

And btw, it is the organizations, or the associations, of people that will be destroyed. We, the people, ourselves, will continue living forever... as resurrected persons, with bodies.

Here is what our Lord has to say about organizations and/or associations, in general, so you can see what I'm thinking --

And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power... are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion. â?? D&C 132:7-8

[Freedom in Truth]

Freedom in Truth - Are you meaning to say that anyone who does good is on the Lord's side?

Paul - Yes, if they are only doing that which is good.

No one only does what is good. But many can do good things and still reject the Lord. So, merely doing good things cannot put one on the Lordâ??s side.

If we do something evil, and then fully repent, we are then back on the Lord's side at that moment.

It takes less than a second to repent, you know. There is no good reason to ever delay.

We just need to know what to do to be saved... and we just need to know to trust God.

This switching thing - I do not believe this.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Wow - we better pray we die in a moment when we are on the Lord's side.

Paul - Heh. Of course! I would never want to die while on Satan's side.

And I would never want to live while on Satan's side, either.

Pretty risky, isnâ??t it? We better not make any mistakes or we could die while on Satanâ??s side. Talk about insecurity.

Let me know if what I said still isn't clear to you.

Itâ??s clear to me, I believe. But I really am not so sure it is clear to you. I donâ??t think you realize what you are saying.

[Freedom in Truth]

Iâ??ve been considering your last few posts, Paul (#647, 648, 651). This is what I see.

You have a business arrangement, Paul, with a nice guy for a mentor/boss. You have a nice teacher who is helping you with your career and you have a nice company.

I have a Father. I have a King. I have a family. And it doesnâ??t matter what I personally get out of it.

And this is the HUGE difference between us, affecting EVERYTHING.

[Paul Ray]

No one only does what is good.

If we do something wrong and then repent the wrong thing is not held against us.

But many can do good things and still reject the Lord.

I agree... such as when some people reject some things that are good.

So, merely doing good things cannot put one on the Lordâ??s side.

Heh, think about it. If you merely (or only) do good things, then whose side are you on?

As I said, if you repent the bad things aren't held against you, so you would then have only done good things if the bad things were forgiven... and forgotten.

This switching thing - I do not believe this.

Whether you believe it or not, you do it every day.

If you ever do something bad and don't repent to "switch back" to the good side, then you are still on the bad side... and the bad side is not the Lord's side.

Pretty risky, isnâ??t it? We better not make any mistakes or we could die while on Satanâ??s side. Talk about insecurity.

All you have to do is repent when you do something wrong. What is so scary about that?

Itâ??s clear to me, I believe. But I really am not so sure it is clear to you. I donâ??t think you realize what you are saying.

I realize exactly what I am saying, or at least what I am thinking. I don't know if you truly understand what I am thinking, though. Feel free to ask me some more questions.

[Paul Ray]

Iâ??ve been considering your last few posts, Paul (#647, 648, 651). This is what I see.

You have a business arrangement, Paul, with a nice guy for a mentor/boss. You have a nice teacher who is helping you with your career and you have a nice company.

I have a Father. I have a King. I have a family. And it doesnâ??t matter what I personally get out of it.

And this is the HUGE difference between us, affecting EVERYTHING.

Yes, I have business arrangement with a nice guy for a mentor/boss.

Yes, I have a nice teacher who is helping me with my career.

Yes, I have a nice company.

And yes, I have a Father, and a King, and a family.

And it doesnâ??t matter what you personally get out of all that you have???

What does that mean, exactly?

It does matter to me what I get out of my life. I want the best of all things that are possible.

What do you mean when you say it doesnâ??t matter what you personally get out of what you have???

Can I have all that you have... no duplicates, but all of your own stuff that you have???

If you don't really want it, I will take it. I'll give it to people who really want it.

[Freedom in Truth]

Yes. Because the church of the devil is divided against itself, and does not have a literal focal point to represent it on the earth. It is the tares mixed in with the wheat.

Matthew 13:24-30 is the wheat and tares passage. Jesus is speaking of the â??kingdom of heavenâ??. Do you consider the church of the devil to be the kingdom of heaven?

[TrashcanMan79]

Do you consider the church of the devil to be the kingdom of heaven?

Yes, FIT, I'm sure he does.

[Tsuzuki]

Matthew 13:24-30 is the wheat and tares passage. Jesus is speaking of the â??kingdom of heavenâ??. Do you consider the church of the devil to be the kingdom of heaven?

No, I consider the church of the lamb of God to be the kingdom of heaven. The church of the devil is no kingdom at all, because the devil is not a king. At present, the church of the devil is intermixed with the church of the lamb of God, just as the tares are mixed with the wheat, but at the harvest it will be drawn out and purged.

[Paul Ray]

Matthew 13:24-30 is the wheat and tares passage. Jesus is speaking of the â??kingdom of heavenâ??. Do you consider the church of the devil to be the kingdom of heaven?

I'll tell you what I think, since you did not ask me, personally.

I think the church of the devil includes all the people who the devil has deceived and kept from at least some of the truth the true church of Christ knows all about... while knowing that those things are true.

For example, the true church of Christ knows A, B, C and D are true because Christ has revealed the truth of A, B, C and D to members of His church through authorized representatives.

The church of the devil may know about A, B and C, and they may even know about D, but they do not know that those things are true, and they try to suppress at least some of those things... because they do not believe that those things are true.

And notice that this can work both ways.

The church of the devil can believe that they have all the truth, and they can really see things as they are. And at least some of those people can believe only A is the truth, while they either don't know about B, C, and/or D, or believe they're all false.

The main thought though is that the church of the devil is in opposition to the true church of Christ. The people in one church may agree with some of the other church's beliefs, but they do not agree on all things.

Only the true church of Christ is in total agreement, or one, on every issue, and the greatest persons in that church know everything.

[Tsuzuki]

Only the true church of Christ is in total agreement, or one, on every issue, and the greatest persons in that church know everything.

I disagree.

[Freedom in Truth]

Yes. Satan will tell us some truths, such as in a half-truth, to try to keep us away from the whole truth about an issue, and he will try to take away the truths we do accept by trying to get us to believe another lie.

He works on us all a little bit at a time... if we aren't careful and/or let him get away with something.

D&C 93:39a doesnâ??t say â??And that wicked one cometh and taketh away some light and some truth,â? It reads to me that Satan takes away truth in general. This works with light and truth turning away from Satan - he has no truth. He knows truth, but he does not possess truth. A mixture is no longer truth.

It may help to think of Satan turning away from light and truth, rather than light and truth turning away from Satan, but light and truth do turn away from Satan, in a sense. Light and truth do not lead us to Satan.

I believe Satan chose to turn from light and truth, and now light and truth turn from him. He bears no light and truth so he has none to give.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

You must think Christians like me think we can do anything without consequences, right?

Paul - No. Who or what would make you think I believe something like that?

â??Satan's goal is to convince us we can do what we want to do and there will be no consequences... as long as we don't get caught. And he tries to convince us we can avoid getting caught because there are no eternal consequences.... either because God will simply forgive us (without repentance) or because there really is no God to answer to.â? (Paul)

What lie are you talking about, exactly?

I believe you believe we need to repent from all of our sins as soon as we know what our sins are.

Yes, but I have different reasons/a different motivation for repentance than you do.

Did you hear what I said to you? He wants us to be as much like him as possible.

In his own way you might say he loves us. He wants us to be as much like him as we can be.

We often think that he hates us, but to him it's his love. And what we call evil, he calls good.

No. Satan does not love us. He does not love. I cannot put those two words together (Satan and Love). No.

Right. And God is always there to help us if we ask God for help.

The danger is in relying on people other than God.

I would say the danger is more of lacking discernment.

Freedom in Truth -

1 Nephi 14:10 - This is me - I belong to that church of the devil, the mother of abominations, the whore of all the earth. (etc.)

Paul - Okay. Do you honestly believe what you are saying?

If you do belong to the church of the devil, and you are in the fold of the devil, then of course you will among those who are cast down by devouring fire.

... unless you someday get out of that church and join the true church of Christ.

Obviously I believe I am following God and not the devil. Obviously I believe I am not going to be devoured by fire. I am showing you what I think you believe about me. I am a sheep of the devil, according to the BoM, and I shall be devoured by fire. Period.

Are you asking me what I believe, personally?

I believe you must accept Jesus Christ as your Lord, which means accepting everything that he tells you... either personally or through the power of the Holy Ghost.

If he ever tells you to believe [something], and you know it's from God, then I think you should believe what God tells you.

If he ever tells you to repent... or to stop doing something and go in the other direction... then I think you should do that. Just do it.

That is pretty much everything in a nutshell. Just follow God.

... even if he tells you to join a specific group of people and allow some of them to baptize you in water and... some other stuff God tells you to accept.

Iâ??ve been baptized in water.

You really donâ??t need scriptures, Paul. I donâ??t see how you would be harmed if you never read a page of them.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

And what is the goal of salvation?

Paul - To be what you can't be without God to help you. To be all that God knows you can be.

So salvation is about me. Doing the right things with Godâ??s help so I can be all I can be.

I know what I believed when I was a member of an organization called the "Church of Christ", and I pretty much know what that organization and other organizations teach the general public, but I've never believed that all the people who are members of those organizations are members of what you call the "Devil's church".

Itâ??s not my term, Paul (â??Devilâ??s churchâ??). Itâ??s Godâ??s term, or JSâ??s term - whichever you believe.

I guess it would follow that some in the Mormon church are not part of the church of the Lamb, correct?

A church is a group of people, and only one group is led by God. The other group, I believe, is deceived.

Deceived, yes, and led by the devil - the BoM says so.

And btw, it is the organizations, or the associations, of people that will be destroyed. We, the people, ourselves, will continue living forever... as resurrected persons, with bodies.

Thatâ??s not necessarily how it reads to me, but in any case it is destruction or eternal torment. Here are a few scriptures on the subject -

1 Nephi 12:17 "And the mists of darkness are the temptations of the devil, which blindeth the eyes, and hardeneth the hearts of the children of men, and leadeth them away into broad roads, that they perish and are lost."

2 Nephi 28:18-23 -

18 But behold, that great and abominable church, the whore of all the earth, must tumble to the earth, and great must be the fall thereof.

19 For the kingdom of the devil must shake, and they which belong to it must needs be stirred up unto repentance, or the devil will grasp them with his everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger, and perish;

20 For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is wellâ??and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is noneâ??and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

23 Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

Alma 13:20 "Now I need not rehearse the matter; what I have said may suffice. Behold, the scriptures are before you; if ye will wrest them it shall be to your own destruction."

[Freedom in Truth]

No, I consider the church of the lamb of God to be the kingdom of heaven. The church of the devil is no kingdom at all, because the devil is not a king. At present, the church of the devil is intermixed with the church of the lamb of God, just as the tares are mixed with the wheat, but at the harvest it will be drawn out and purged.

So the Mormon Church - the Church of the Lamb - is also the church of the devil? The two churches are mixed together right now? So those following the devil are in the Mormon church as well as other churches?

[Tsuzuki]

So the Mormon Church - the Church of the Lamb - is also the church of the devil? The two churches are mixed together right now? So those following the devil are in the Mormon church as well as other churches?

Let's not confuse the two. The church of the devil is not a real church, it is a metaphor for the wicked. There are wicked people in Mormonism just as there are everywhere else. There are also righteous people everywhere else just as there are in Mormonism. The church of the lamb of God consists of all the righteous in the world, while the church of the devil consists of all the wicked. They are both metaphors. However, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the current focal point of righteousness on the earth today, so it represents the church of the lamb of God on the earth. The church of the devil is divided, so it has no earthly representation except in the individual lives of the wicked.

[TrashcanMan79]

The church of the devil is not a real church, it is a metaphor for the wicked. There are wicked people in Mormonism just as there are everywhere else. There are also righteous people everywhere else just as there are in Mormonism. The church of the lamb of God consists of all the righteous in the world, while the church of the devil consists of all the wicked.

This is a point Stephen E. Robinson goes into at some length at Nephi's "Great and Abominable Church":

"

In apocalyptic literatureâ??remember that both Revelation and 1 Nephi 13â??14 are apocalyptic in natureâ??the seer is caught up in vision and sees things from God's perspective. Time ceases to be an important element; this is one reason the chronology in Revelation at times seems to be scrambled: with God there is no time as we reckon it (see Alma 40:8 ).

Apocalyptic visions are highly symbolic, usually requiring an angelic interpreter for the seer to understand what he sees. The symbols are inclusiveâ??that is, they stand for categories into which all specific instances of something can be placed. This is why the great and abominable church can be called Ninevah (some of John's language comes from the description of Ninevah in Nahum 3), or Babylon, Sodom, Egypt, Jerusalem, or Rome. The names change, but the characterâ??"that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth" (Revelation 17:18)â??remains the same in every dispensation.

In this sense the church of the devil is equivalent to that great and spacious building seen in vision by both Nephi and his father (see 1 Nephi 8:26â??28, 31, 33â??34; 11:35â??36). The apocalyptic description of the great and spacious building matches the characteristics of the church of the devil; the artificial structure without foundation represents the carnal world, and its values and lifestyle include mockery of the kingdom of God. It fights against the apostles of Jesus Christ, and its fall will be great, for "thus shall be the destruction of all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, that shall fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb" (1 Nephi 11: 36).

To illustrate further, let us take the name of the great and abominable church: Babylon. A quick, literal reading of Revelation might lead us to believe that some particular city is being described, and we would want to know which city Babylon represented. However, if we read more carefully, we see that Babylon is not one city but many, all of which fall into the larger category of "that great city."

Babylon is the antithesis of the city of God, the heavenly Jerusalem or Zion. Just as Zion is wherever the pure in heart dwell (see D&C 97:21), so Babylon is wherever the wicked live. Latter-day Saints don't seem to have any trouble understanding that Zion is a spiritual category that may in different contexts mean Salt Lake City or a branch in some outlying area of the world or Far West or Jerusalem or the city of Enoch or the New Jerusalem. Why, then, is it difficult to understand Zion's opposite, Babylon, in the same way?

This variable identity is what Jacob teaches us in 2 Nephi 10:16: "He that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, shall perish; for they are they who are the whore of all the earth; for they who are not for me are against me, saith our God."

In this context, then, anyone who fights against Zion can be put into the category of Babylon. In apocalyptic literature the cast of characters is constant. There is only one script and one plot from the foundation of the world until its end, and the roles and lines of the drama are always the same from dispensation to dispensation, even though the individuals and institutions who act out the roles and speak the lines change with time.

The important thing to know is what the patterns, the identifying characteristics, of the typological categories are. Then we can orient ourselves in any time or place and know who functions as Babylon and Zion. That, of course, also works for our present day.

Once we understand that the term great and abominable church has two uses, the one open (inclusive and archetypal), the other closed (exclusive and historical), the rest becomes easier. In 1 Nephi both the angel and Nephi refer to the specific institution that played the role of Babylon in the Roman Empire in the second century AD: "Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches," which tortured and slew the saints of God, reveled in gold and silks, and took away many parts from the gospel of Christ. (13:5; see also 13:8, 26).

In chapter 14, verse 10, however, Nephi describes the archetypal categories: "There are save two churches only"â??the church of the Lamb of God, or Zion; and the church of the devil, or Babylon. "Whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth."

Apocalyptic literature is dualistic. Since it deals with types, everything boils down to opposing principles: love and hate, good and evil, light and dark. There are no gray areas in apocalyptic writing. In this sense, there are only two categories in the realm of religion: religion that will save and religion that won't. The former is the Church of the Lamb, and the latter, no matter how well intentioned, is a counterfeit.

In the historical sense, though, only one entity can be the great and abominable church. Well-intentioned churches would thus not qualify as the mother of abominations described in 1 Nephi 13. They do not slay the saints of God nor seek to control civil governments nor pursue wealth, luxury, and sexual immorality.

In either the apocalyptic sense or the historical sense, individual orientation to the Church of the Lamb or to the great and abominable church is not by membership but by loyalty. Just as there are Latter-day Saints who belong to the great and abominable church because of their loyalty to Satan and his lifestyle, so there are members of other churches who belong to the Lamb because of their loyalty to him and his lifestyle. Membership is based more on who has your heart than on who has your records.

Some Latter-day Saints have erred in believing that some specific denomination, to the exclusion of all others, has since the beginning of time been the great and abominable church. This is dangerous, for many will then want to know which it is, and an antagonistic relationship with that denomination will inevitably follow.

Some, for example, have argued that elements of Judaism in the first century were reflected traits of Babylon. After all, Jewish leaders persecuted the church and spilled the blood of the Saints. They crucified the Messiah and joined religion together with civil government. We should recognize, however, that it was this kind of argumentâ??that the Jews were the beast, the antichristâ??that led directly to the Holocaust in this century and that still fans the moral insanity of some present-day groups. Has Satan's hand ever been more clearly discernible in any human undertaking than in the Holocaust?

The irony is that while Jerusalem in AD 30 might have been one manifestation of Babylon (see Revelation 11:8 ), Judaism cannot be the great and abominable church Nephi and John describe. First, the Jews did not enjoy dominion over all the nations of the earth. Second, Nephi says that the scriptures were complete when they came forth from the mouth of a Jew, but that the great and abominable church, which had its formation among the Gentiles, excised them (see 1 Nephi 13:24â??26). Third, it does not seem to be the fate of the Jews to be utterly consumed by the nations of the earthâ??quite the opposite, in fact.

More often, some have suggested that the Roman Catholic church might be the great and abominable church of Nephi 13. This is also untenable, primarily because Roman Catholicism as we know it did not yet exist when the crimes described by Nephi were being committed. In fact, the term Roman Catholic only makes sense after AD 1054 when it is used to distinguish the Western, Latin-speaking Orthodox Church that followed the bishop of Rome from the Eastern, Greek-speaking Orthodox Church that followed the bishop of Constantinople.

In the period between Peter and the Roman emperor Constantine, there were many Christian churches besides the Orthodox Church: Ebionites, Syrian and Egyptian churches, Donatists, Gnostics, Marcionites, and so on. Even if we use the term Catholic for the church Constantine made the state religion in AD 313, the New Testament as we know it was already widely circulating. That is, the plain and precious parts had already been removed. The notion of shifty-eyed medieval monks rewriting the scriptures is unfair and bigoted. We owe those monks a debt of gratitude that anything was saved at all.

By the time of Constantine, the apostles had been dead for centuries. Furthermore, the early Orthodox Church can hardly be accused of immorality. It had, in fact, gone to the extremes of asceticism. In some areas of the world, Orthodoxy replaced an earlier, already corrupt form of Christianity. And during much of the period, members of the Orthodox Church were not in a position to persecute anyone, as they were being thrown to the lions themselves. The Catholic Church of the fourth century was the result of the apostasyâ??its end product, not the cause. To find the real culprits, we need to look at a much earlier period in church history than the fourth century after Christ. Satan had his ministers in the world long before then, and we must remember that Babylon was already there to oppose Zion in the days of Cain, Nimrod, Pharaoh, and Herod.

Actually, no single known historical church, denomination, or set of believers meets all the requirements for the great and abominable church: it must have formed among the Gentiles; it must have edited and controlled the distribution of the scriptures; it must have slain the Saints of God, including the apostles and prophets; it must be in league with civil governments and use their police power to enforce its religious views; it must have dominion over all the earth; it must pursue great wealth and sexual immorality; and it must last until close to the end of the world. No single denomination or system of beliefs fits the entire description. Rather, the role of Babylon has been played by many different agencies, ideologies, and churches in many different times. It should be clear that the great and abominable church that Nephi described in chapter 13 is not the same historical entity that crucified the Savior or that martyred Joseph and Hyrum.

It would be an error to blame some modern denomination for the activities of an ancient great and abominable church. The other error is to go too far the other way, dehistoricizing the abominable church altogether. The term then becomes merely a vague symbol for all the disassociated evil in the world. We cannot, in the face of the scriptural evidence, accept this view. For if we do, we will not be able to recognize the categories and know who is playing the role of Babylon in our own times or in times to come. Thus, we must, on the one hand, avoid the temptation to identify the role of the great and abominable church so completely with one particular entity that we do not recognize the part when it is played by some other entity. At the same time, we must remember that the role will be played by some entity or coalition, and we must be able to tell by their characteristic fruits which is Zion and which is Babylon.

Can we, then, identify the historical agency that acted as the great and abominable church in earliest Christianity? Such an agent would have had its origins in the second half of the first century and would have done much of its work by the middle of the second century.

This period might be called the blind spot in Christian history, for it is here that the fewest primary historical sources have been preserved. We have good sources for New Testament Christianity; then the lights go out, so to speak, and we hear the muffled sounds of a great struggle. When the lights come on again a hundred or so years later, we find that someone has rearranged all the furniture and Christianity has become something very different from what it was in the beginning. That different entity can accurately be described as hellenized Christianity.

The hellenization of Christianity is a phenomenon that scholars of Christian history have long recognized. Hellenization refers to the imposition of Greek culture and philosophy upon the cultures of the East. The result was a synthesis of East and West, a melting pot of popular culture that was virtually worldwide. In the realm of religion, however, synthesis means compromise, and when we speak in terms of the gospel, compromise with popular beliefs means apostasy from the truth.

When Jewish Christianity and Greek culture met head-on in the Gentile mission field in the middle of the first century, a great battle of beliefs and lifestyles arose. The Greeks' worldview eventually won, and Jewish Christianity was revised to make it more attractive and appealing to a Greek audience.

Primary prejudices of the Greek world were the absolute nature of God (i.e., he cannot be bound or limited by anything) and the impossibility of anything material or physical being eternal. In order to satisfy the Gentiles steeped in Greek philosophy, Christianity had to throw out the doctrines of an anthropomorphic God and the resurrection of the dead, or reinterpret them drastically. Denying or altering the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead is precisely what some Greek Christians at Corinth had done, and Paul responded against them forcefully in 1 Corinthians 15.

Paul also linked the apostasy with Satan's work in setting up a false religion. In 2 Thessalonians he said, "That day shall not come, except there come a falling away [apostasia] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" (2 Thessalonians 2:3). That "man of sin" will sit in the temple of God, "shew" himself that he is God (2 Thessalonians 2:4). The "mystery of iniquity" (2 Thessalonians 2:7) was already under way as Paul wrote, and you will recall that one of the names of Babylon is "mystery" (Revelation 17:5).1

The son of perdition, or the "man of sin" Paul speaks of, is Lucifer. He is the counterfeit of the Man of Holiness. The temple in which he sits is the church, now desolate and devoid of the divine presence by the abomination of apostasy. The Joseph Smith Translation of 2 Thessalonians 2:7 adds, "Christ suffereth him to work, until the time is fulfilled that he shall be taken out of the way."

In Doctrine and Covenants 86:3, the Lord identifies the whore, Babylon, as the apostate church: "After they [the apostles] have fallen asleep the great persecutor of the church, the apostate, the whore, even Babylon, that maketh all nations to drink of her cup, in whose hearts the enemy, even Satan, sitteth to reignâ??behold he soweth the tares; wherefore, the tares choke the wheat and drive the church into the wilderness."

Clearly, whatever denominational name we choose to give it, the earliest apostate church and the great and abominable church that Nephi and John describe are identical. The fact is, we don't really know what name to give it. I have proposed hellenized Christianity, but that is a description rather than a name.

The historical abominable church of the devil is that apostate church that replaced true Christianity in the first and second centuries, teaching the philosophies of men mingled with scriptures. It dethroned God in the church and replaced him with man by denying the principle of revelation and turning instead to human intellect. As the product of human agency, its creeds were an abomination to the Lord, for they were idolatry: men worshipping the creations, not of their own hands, but of their own minds.

Babylon in the first and second centuries may even have been a collection of different movements. Some Jewish Christians couldn't let go of the law of Moses and eventually gave up Christ instead. The Orthodox Christians adopted Greek philosophy. The Gnostics wallowed in the mysteries and in unspeakable practices on the one hand or in neurotic asceticism on the other. Second-century compilers like Tatian and Marcion rewrote the scriptures, the latter boldly chopping out anything, he didn't like. And all of them together forced the virtuous woman, the true church of Jesus Christ, into the wilderness.

"

[Paul Ray]

D&C 93:39a doesnâ??t say â??And that wicked one cometh and taketh away some light and some truth,â? It reads to me that Satan takes away truth in general. This works with light and truth turning away from Satan - he has no truth. He knows truth, but he does not possess truth. A mixture is no longer truth.

...

I believe Satan chose to turn from light and truth, and now light and truth turn from him. He bears no light and truth so he has none to give.

I think you and I are in agreement on this. I don't want to argue about semantics.

Freedom of Truth said: You must think Christians like me think we can do anything without consequences, right?

Paul said: No. Who or what would make you think I believe something like that?

Freedom of Truth repeated something else I said: "Satan's goal is to convince us we can do what we want to do and there will be no consequences... as long as we don't get caught. And he tries to convince us we can avoid getting caught because there are no eternal consequences.... either because God will simply forgive us (without repentance) or because there really is no God to answer to.â? (Paul)

I don't think you can correctly apply what I said to what you are trying to make out of it, since your last quote from me was an answer to another question.

If you want to know why I think Christians like you think what you think, then I think you should ask me that question. I will now answer that question now.

I think Christians like you think what you think because you think what you think makes sense, and you think it is God who is helping you to make sense out of it... and I agree with that. But just because something makes sense doesn't mean it is true. I think you should ask God to answer your specific questions, and pay attention to what God tells you, exactly. It is very easy to form a misunderstanding.

Yes, but I have different reasons/a different motivation for repentance than you do.

I don't think so. I think I have your reason in addition to many other reasons to repent.

I know there are good, better and best reasons, and I have all of them.

No. Satan does not love us. He does not love. I cannot put those two words together (Satan and Love). No.

You missed my meaning. I was trying to convey the idea that Satan has passionate feelings for wanting us to be like him (Satan), and I believe those feelings are just as passionate as God's feelings for wanting us to be like him (God... our Father, our Lord, and/or the Holy Ghost). I know those passionate feelings are total opposites of each other, but I don't think Satan necessarily believes he really hates us. All who truly know what love is, would know it is hatred, but to Satan, it might be considered his love, in his own way. I hope you now know what I meant.

I would say the danger is more of lacking discernment.

Same thing, basically. You have to know who you are listening to.

Obviously I believe I am following God and not the devil.

Answer this question:. Do you think Satan tries to fool people by pretending to be God?

I think he does. Some people would never worship Satan, if they really knew who he was, but Satan wants all of us to worship him, only, so he has to use the tactic of deception to try to make people think he is God.

We simply need to know the difference between God and Satan... even when he is trying to fool us.

Obviously I believe I am not going to be devoured by fire. I am showing you what I think you believe about me. I am a sheep of the devil, according to the BoM, and I shall be devoured by fire. Period.

Why do you think I think you are a sheep of the devil?

I think you simply don't know some things that I know about God and what God reveals.

I don't think your ignorance makes you a sheep of the devil.

I think you just need to keep learning from God.

Iâ??ve been baptized in water.

And I suppose you think you were baptized by people who were authorized to baptize you, too, huh.

You really donâ??t need scriptures, Paul. I donâ??t see how you would be harmed if you never read a page of them.

I think the scriptures help to give me ideas I might not otherwise have without them, so pardon me if I continue to read scriptures.

So salvation is about me. Doing the right things with Godâ??s help so I can be all I can be.

Yes. You are among those who need to be saved.

Itâ??s not my term, Paul (â??Devilâ??s churchâ??). Itâ??s Godâ??s term, or JSâ??s term - whichever you believe.

I think it only helps to point out an idea. It doesn't guarantee that you will get the right idea, though.

I guess it would follow that some in the Mormon church are not part of the church of the Lamb, correct?

Correct.

Deceived, yes, and led by the devil - the BoM says so.

Well that's nice. I would still believe it if I never read it in the Book of Mormon, though.

Thatâ??s not necessarily how it reads to me, but in any case it is destruction or eternal torment. Here are a few scriptures on the subject -

1 Nephi 12:17 "And the mists of darkness are the temptations of the devil, which blindeth the eyes, and hardeneth the hearts of the children of men, and leadeth them away into broad roads, that they perish and are lost."

2 Nephi 28:18-23 -

18 But behold, that great and abominable church, the whore of all the earth, must tumble to the earth, and great must be the fall thereof.

19 For the kingdom of the devil must shake, and they which belong to it must needs be stirred up unto repentance, or the devil will grasp them with his everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger, and perish;

20 For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is wellâ??and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is noneâ??and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

23 Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

Alma 13:20 "Now I need not rehearse the matter; what I have said may suffice. Behold, the scriptures are before you; if ye will wrest them it shall be to your own destruction."

There are some other scriptures that expound on these ideas.

[Freedom in Truth]

If we do something wrong and then repent the wrong thing is not held against us.

I donâ??t have a score card, where when I repent the tally mark on the devilâ??s side is erased and moved to Godâ??s side. Do you keep a score card with your wife? Do you hold the wrong things she does (to you) against her until she comes to you and repents?

I donâ??t repent to move tally marks. Why do you think I repent?

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

But many can do good things and still reject the Lord.

Paul - I agree... such as when some people reject some things that are good.

That was not the kind of thing I was thinking about. Someone can love their neighbor and do all sorts of nice things to help them, and still reject the Lord.

Heh, think about it. If you merely (or only) do good things, then whose side are you on?

I can do all sorts of good things for all the wrong reasons (ungodly reasons). Itâ??s not just what you do but why you do it. But, if you are involved in a nice company with a nice boss helping you to have a nice career, then doing good things will work for you - youâ??ll progress. On the other hand, doing good things with the wrong motivation will not help a relationship.

As I said, if you repent the bad things aren't held against you, so you would then have only done good things if the bad things were forgiven... and forgotten.

Many bad things have long-lasting ramifications - they leave scars. The guy who hits his child in a fit of rage and cripples her can be forgiven by God, his child, his wife and family, etc. - but his actions will never be forgotten.

Whether you believe it or not, you do it every day.

If you ever do something bad and don't repent to "switch back" to the good side, then you are still on the bad side... and the bad side is not the Lord's side.

If you have a son, does he switch from being your son to not being your son depending on whether or not he is obeying you? Of course not. He is your son whether he is obeying you or not. He is on your â??sideâ? because he is your son and you are a family. He will defend you - he is your son.

All you have to do is repent when you do something wrong. What is so scary about that?

What if you are in the midst of doing a wrong thing and you die? You did not have a chance to repent. Too bad for you - youâ??re doomed - you died on the devilâ??s side. Is that it?

I realize exactly what I am saying, or at least what I am thinking. I don't know if you truly understand what I am thinking, though. Feel free to ask me some more questions.

Paul, life with God is not a performance review. It is a RELATIONSHIP with a Father, a Lover - you are the BRIDE of Christ.

[Freedom in Truth]

Yes, I have business arrangement with a nice guy for a mentor/boss.

Yes, I have a nice teacher who is helping me with my career.

Yes, I have a nice company.

I donâ??t.

And yes, I have a Father, and a King, and a family.

Maybe, but it seems to be an afterthought with you. The business arrangement seems to be on the forefront of your mind.

And it doesnâ??t matter what you personally get out of all that you have???

What does that mean, exactly?

That means that I will love God and follow Him no matter what. It means that I will give up all I have if it comes to that. It means that I donâ??t need promises of rewards or godhood or mansions or authority or ANYTHING to worship Him and follow Him.

Thatâ??s what it means. Can you relate to that at all? If you found out that there is no godhood or any kind of reward that you are imagining, would you still love, worship, and follow God? Or are you only following Him for what you believe you will personally get out of it?

Answer carefully please.

[Tsuzuki]

Answer carefully please.

Why?

[Paul Ray]

I donâ??t have a score card, where when I repent the tally mark on the devilâ??s side is erased and moved to Godâ??s side.

I beleive we will be judged by all of our actions.

I believe books will be opened on the day of our judgment.

I believe that if I do not repent for a sin, or wrong action, I will be held accountable.

I believe the only way to be forgiven is through repentance... as well as by accepting Jesus Christ as my Lord.

I donâ??t repent to move tally marks. Why do you think I repent?

I repent to do what is right... to fix my mistakes and move on.

I believe that is what my Lord and Father expect out of me.

That was not the kind of thing I was thinking about. Someone can love their neighbor and do all sorts of nice things to help them, and still reject the Lord.

I know that.

I can do all sorts of good things for all the wrong reasons (ungodly reasons).

I believe that if you do something for a wrong reason, then you are not doing something good.

Itâ??s not just what you do but why you do it.

I agree with that.

But, if you are involved in a nice company with a nice boss helping you to have a nice career, then doing good things will work for you - youâ??ll progress.

Yes, it's very nice. I like it.

On the other hand, doing good things with the wrong motivation will not help a relationship.

I agree with that.

Many bad things have long-lasting ramifications - they leave scars.

... kinda like tallies on a score card, maybe?

The guy who hits his child in a fit of rage and cripples her can be forgiven by God, his child, his wife and family, etc. - but his actions will never be forgotten.

I agree... unless and/or until God forgets and is somehow able to help us forget about it.

If you have a son, does he switch from being your son to not being your son depending on whether or not he is obeying you? Of course not. He is your son whether he is obeying you or not. He is on your â??sideâ? because he is your son and you are a family. He will defend you - he is your son.

Yes, but a good Father will still somehow disciple his own son.

What if you are in the midst of doing a wrong thing and you die? You did not have a chance to repent. Too bad for you - youâ??re doomed - you died on the devilâ??s side. Is that it?

You only stay on the devil's side if you do not repent... and repentance is possible in the life hereafter.

Paul, life with God is not a performance review.

I believe all of us will stand before God on the day of judgment... even if only to get a pat on the back.

Well done, my faithful servant. Enter into the glory of your Lord.

That is pretty much all I expect out of it.

It is a RELATIONSHIP with a Father, a Lover - you are the BRIDE of Christ.

Awe, shucks.

[structurecop]

Thatâ??s what it means. Can you relate to that at all? If you found out that there is no godhood or any kind of reward that you are imagining, would you still love, worship, and follow God? Or are you only following Him for what you believe you will personally get out of it?

Answer carefully please.

I live in godhood right now, so no, it wouldn't change anything.

[Paul Ray]

Why?

Because there's a test at the end.

[Paul Ray]

I live in godhood right now, so no, it wouldn't change anything.

For some reason, the phrase:

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof

suddenly came to my mind.

Hmm. Interesting thought.

[structurecop]

For some reason, the phrase:

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof

suddenly came to my mind.

Hmm. Interesting thought.

6 I have said, Ye are gods;

and all of you are children of the Most High.

7 But ye shall die like men,

and fall like one of the princes.

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth:

for thou shalt inherit all nations.

[Paul Ray]

6 I have said, Ye are gods;

and all of you are children of the Most High.

7 But ye shall die like men,

and fall like one of the princes.

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth:

for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Btw, just so you know, I wasn't thinking of you, specifically, when I said that.

It probably would have been better if I had said that in response to FIT's post.

People who have a form of godliess but deny the power of becoming godly puzzle me.

[structurecop]

Btw, just so you know, I wasn't thinking of you, specifically, when I said that.

It probably would have been better if I had said that in response to FIT's post.

People who have a form of godliess but deny the power of becoming godly puzzle me.

Oh okay, I wasn't sure.