How Can We Know When We Hear

[Paul Ray]

Then why donâ??t you show me scriptural support for topics â??God has revealedâ??

If this is the question you were going to ask me to show you some scriptural support for, I recommend that you look at our Topical Guide for topics God has revealed to us.

There's a whole buncha scriptures in them there books.

[Freedom in Truth]

I agree with some of what you say and disagree with some of what you say.

Do you think you can do anything to convince me you are 100% correct?

No.

I don't think so. And I don't think I can convince you that I am 100% correct, either.

No.

... and yet we both believe our heart is right with God.

... or at least I think you do.

Yes.

... I know that I do.

I believe God is helping me know everything that I know to be true.

So where do we go from here?

I sense we are done, Paul. I can only pray that God will reveal Himself to you and that He will give you eyes to see and ears to hear, and that you will accept them.

... according to your way of thinking?

I know what I think, but what do you think?

I know what you think, too. Everyone who has read any of this thread knows what you think!

Who do you think is the best source for all of our good ideas and knowledge?

The answer is obvious. And, we're back to the topic of this thread, aren't we?

P.S. I don't believe you ever addressed "test the spirits" by examining the scriptures.

[Paul Ray]

I sense we are done, Paul. I can only pray that God will reveal Himself to you and that He will give you eyes to see and ears to hear, and that you will accept them.

I'm praying, and I've been praying, pretty much the same kind of things for you too.

I know what you think, too. Everyone who has read any of this thread knows what you think!

And I know you have also made your position very obvious to everyone here.

I don't believe you ever addressed "test the spirits" by examining the scriptures.

How do you know what the scriptures are in the first place?

Without a witness from God, they are just a bunch of words.

... and yes, I did address this issue, just not in the way that you were expecting me to.

[Freedom in Truth]

Did I miss your response to Post #702?

Being like God and being a god are two different things. Can you see that they are different? I can aspire to being as loving as God is, etc. without thinking I can be a god like Him. We are two different Beings. Is an ant ever going to become a man?

Your god is a guy who earned his godhood. His god (his father) was a guy who earned his godhood. And his god (his father) was a guy who earned his godhood. And on and on and on. Each of them had their own world with their own spirit children. But you donâ??t know THE Beginning, THE Alpha - the guy who started it ALL (everything, all matter that exists).

I worship THE Alpha - the Being who created ALL. THE BEGINNING. He must be greater than the Father you worship because He had the power to begin everything. My God is the God of ALL WORLDS, ALL MATTER, ALL LIFE.

You may imagine that you can be one of the godhood guys. Can you imagine being THE BEGINNING - THE ENDING, and Creator and King of EVERYTHING THAT IS?

--------

I canâ??t offer you godhood, specific rewards, your own world populated with your own spirit children. Are these things why you left the Church of Christ? Did you leave for your own glory and power?

Everyone searches for significance, Paul. Do you need to be a god to feel significant?

I offer you a Love from a Father that will fill every part of you with value and significance. I offer you freedom in Truth, and a Peace that transcends all understanding.

John 8:31-32 â??To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, â??If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.â??"

John 14:27 â??Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.â?

[Paul Ray]

Did I miss your response to Post #702?

No. I didn't respond to that, but I did respond to those thoughts on some of my other posts.

Try starting at post #703 to read all of my posts from that point, and then let me know you if have any different questions.

I feel like I have pretty much covered every question you have already asked.

[Paul Ray]

I just found a few thoughts that I would like to respond to, or respond to again:

Your god is a guy who earned his godhood.

That's not what I believe. I believe my Father was God even when he was a baby. There may have been a point when he wasn't exactly like his father, in each and every way then, but he was still God, just as always.

And if you need a point of reference, just look to the example of Jesus Christ.

His god (his father) was a guy who earned his godhood.

I believe we don't, and can't, earn "godhood".

I believe God is either what we are, in some sense, or we aren't God.

... and I believe we are God, in some sense.

And his god (his father) was a guy who earned his godhood. And on and on and on.

And on and on you still have the wrong idea... at least according to my beliefs.

Each of them had their own world with their own spirit children.

I think you're talking about things we don't know much about.

But you donâ??t know THE Beginning, THE Alpha - the guy who started it ALL (everything, all matter that exists).

I believe there never was a beginning for God. God is an eternal being.

There was never a "guy who started it all". It's like a circle. There is no beginning.

I worship THE Alpha - the Being who created ALL. THE BEGINNING.

Oh, I see what you are thinking now. Or at least I think I do. Here is what I believe:

Jesus Christ is the Alpha, and the being who created the beginning, in the sense that He is the one who was there at the beginning of this Earth's creation. But God didn't begin the beginning of God.

He must be greater than the Father you worship because He had the power to begin everything.

I believe it was our Father who gave him that power... just like when our Father gave him all authority, as is mentioned in the last part of Matthew.

My God is the God of ALL WORLDS, ALL MATTER, ALL LIFE.

I believe my God is the God who created all worlds using matter that was and is also eternal.

There was never a first quark, or another first very basic particle of matter.

If nothing else God is made of matter and the matter God is made of is eternal.

... and if you don't believe that, it seems you believe God is something that isn't tangible... as if God is only a thought or an idea or a feeling.

... even air and gas vapors contain some matter.

I also believe the most basic form of intelligence is what we refer to as life.

... and that intelligence is also eternal.

You may imagine that you can be one of the godhood guys.

... and you may sayayayay I'm a dreamer... but I'm not the only one.

Can you imagine being THE BEGINNING - THE ENDING, and Creator and King of EVERYTHING THAT IS?

I believe the references to God as the beginning and ending are referring to the fact that he was there, and in authority, at the beginning when this Earth was created, just as he will be there and in authority at the end of the Earth's creation, as it was and is now. It is he who created and who will end this Earth as it is now.

I canâ??t offer you godhood, specific rewards, your own world populated with your own spirit children.

I didn't think so. But I believe God can, or at least help me know how to achieve it in my own life.

Are these things why you left the Church of Christ? Did you leave for your own glory and power?

No. I left the "Church of Christ" because I found out that God had and was revealing more to us on this planet than is recorded in the Holy Bible... ideas concerning new revelation from God and the need for authority from God were key in my conversion, or progression.

Everyone searches for significance, Paul. Do you need to be a god to feel significant?

No, but it sure doesn't hurt.

I offer you a Love from a Father that will fill every part of you with value and significance.

You can't offer me the love of our Father... because it comes from our Father.. not you.

And btw, I already have that.

I offer you freedom in Truth, and a Peace that transcends all understanding.

I got that too... and I didn't get any of it from you.

John 8:31-32 â??To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, â??If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.â??"

I know and am learning from Jesus and our Father, and I am free.

John 14:27 â??Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.â?

... and nothing you say can ever trouble me or make me afraid.

I have the peace our Lord has given to me.

... and btw, if you can't tell, I've adopted the free-for-all format in this thread.

... since you don't seem to want to talk about other issues in other separate threads.

[TrashcanMan79]

Deification of who? God? Man?

Given the context of the discussion, the answer should be apparent. Are you purposely being obtuse? (If you aren't, the answer is man, and my apologies for calling you obtuse.)

That's not what I said, TCM.

Oh. When you asked if the BoM was necessary, I thought that maybe you had some criteria by which you judged scripture as necessary or not. Then I asked you about the Song of Solomon, Book of Ruth, Mark, and John's epistles to see if they were deemed necessary by your criteria. You'd rather not answer; that's okay. No biggie.

I am specifically talking about exaltation. Isn't it an important "restored truth"?

Whether or not it is 'restored' would depend on one's understanding of theosis in early Christianity contra Mormon exaltation. Whether or not it is 'important' would depend on the value one places on exaltation.

Truth? No, I don't think so.

I can understand that a Mormon wouldn't think it was clearly in the Bible because a Mormon believes the Bible text was mucked up.

You don't have to be Mormon to think the Bible was mucked up, trust me!

But why wouldn't it be in the BoM?

The BoM doesn't contain every revelation God has given man. Come on now, you should have the ninth Article of Faith memorized by now.

If JS's mission/purpose was to restore truths then shouldn't they be in the BoM?

Not necessarily. See that ninth Article of Faith again. Then consider all the other scriptures Smith produced. Why do you think the BoM should contain the sum total of everything Mormon? Mormons believe in continuous revelation, remember. Again, read the ninth Article of Faith. Again.

Wouldn't these truths be a part of the people's lives in the BoM?

I don't know. How much do you know about the lives of the BoM people?

If they're not there, then why was it important to give us the BoM?

Different people may give different answers to this question, but see here.

[Freedom in Truth]

Big surprise! Satan told a half-truth to Adam and Eve.

If you'll read a little more, you will see that God said that Adam and Eve did become like God.

No, I donâ??t see that. You will have to show me.

The lie in Satan's half-truth was in telling them that they wouldn't die.

Satanâ??s goal is to get our eyes off of God and on to ourselves. He was successful back then, and he is still successful.

Well, at least he told Adam and Eve they could be gods.

Satan tempted Adam and Eve, and because of their pride, it worked. Their relationship with God was damaged. Regardless of whether or not it is true that we can be gods, it IS true that this is what human nature WANTS to hear and believe.

I think Satan is smart enough to know we will hear true information from someone, so, knowing that, I think his goal is to help us form misunderstandings.

Satan twists truth. His concepts are â??bentâ? so they no longer point us to God but they point us to ourselves . . . and we buy it because it is what we want to hear. He feeds our pride.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

A God who will teach you healing and freeing Truth. A God who selflessly loves you. A God who died to free you for relationship with Him by forgiving ALL your sins.

Paul - Yep. That sounds like the God I know.

Your God did not die to forgive ALL your sins - just original sin, correct?

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

I am using the sun to represent God - you are using the sun to represent yourself.

Paul - No I'm not. I'm using the sun to represent what I can become with God's help.

I think that is the same thing as what I said. You are using the sun to represent yourself - with or without Godâ??s help the sun still represents you.

You seem to only want to try to tell me that I'm a natural man with no hope of becoming like God.

You can become the masterpiece that God created you to be, but no, you cannot become a god equal to God. It's not His plan for you. God is so powerful and infinite that no other power is needed. But then, my God is God of all (possible) worlds - your God is not.

I know there are passages that communicate the differences between men and God... that part is true.

But I know of no passages that communicate how we're never going to be equal with God... that is a lie.

Those passages are there, though you must read with understanding. If you donâ??t want to see them you donâ??t have to. But, they are still clear.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Maybe being a god is not my purpose. Maybe being a god is not what would be good for me.

Paul - Would you say the same if you substituted the phrase "being a god" for the phrase "becoming like God"?

Do you think maybe that would not be good for you?

It doesnâ??t matter. I can grow strong and tall like a tree - that doesnâ??t make me a tree. I can sit in a garage like a car - that doesnâ??t make me a car.

You might think it is more noble to follow God without having any goals, but I do not agree with that idea.

Yes, I think it is more noble to follow God without the promise of self-centered gain.

I think it is wonderful that God promises so much to those who will choose to follow Him.

I donâ??t believe God buys love or obedience.

[Selah]

Boy did I have a time getting logged in here today!! Was the site down or something or was it just me?

Freedom in Truth--- Thank you for my new electric mixer. That actually is exactly what I need. Paul Ray of course you can borrow it but you have to promise to give it back since it took so long for me to get that. :-D

[Freedom in Truth]

QUOTE(Freedom in Truth @ May 17 2007, 11:08 AM)

No test - RELATIONSHIP!!!

Paul - The test will test the degree of faithfulness in our relationhip to God.

What do and will you do to show your true love for God?

Freedom in Truth - God sees my heart. He knows me inside and out. Good works flow from my relationship with God but God doesnâ??t have to look at them for proof because He can see their source - my heart.

Good works might show other people that I have a relationship with God, but then again they really donâ??t for sure. As we have said, people can do good works for all sorts of reasons other than that they are faithful to God. Atheists do good works.

And, someone who is tops in faithfulness to God may not have many good works at all, for various reasons. God doesnâ??t â??test usâ? to find out something He doesnâ??t know. He knows all.

I am amending to Post #713 above the following passage -

Job 34:21-23 "His eyes are on the ways of men; he sees their every step. There is no dark place, no deep shadow, where evildoers can hide. God has no need to examine men further, that they should come before him for judgment.â?

[TrashcanMan79]

If you'll read a little more, you will see that God said that Adam and Eve did become like God.

No, I donâ??t see that. You will have to show me.

Do you not own a Bible, Freedom in Truth? If you will read Genesis 3:22, you will find that Paul Ray is correct (although what God actually said was, 'the man is become as one of us', but let's leave the door for polytheism closed for now). If you do not own a Bible (which I am beginning to think is a distinct possibility), biblegateway.com is always there when you need it!

(Unless you need it during a power outage or a server failure; then, I'm afraid, you'll actually need to own a physical Bible. The Mormon Church offers them for free, FYI.)

If you do alreay own a Bible, I don't see that. You will have to show me.

[Freedom in Truth]

Pick one or two ideas you would like to see supported by some scripture, and I will find some scripture for you that will support those ideas. I don't have forever to spend with you now, though, so try to keep your ideas simple, instead of making some big idea with several ideas in it.

Please support that people can be god of their own world populated with their own spirit children. Please support it plainly. Thank you.

Try giving me just a tiny little bit of credit, would you? I have scriptural support for ALL of my beliefs.

Then why do you ignore â??test the spiritsâ? by examining the scriptures? It seems to clash with your belief of just asking God. Youâ??ve never addressed this.

I usually tell people to ask God only when it seems that they really haven't been.

I guess you think I donâ??t ask God because I donâ??t come up with the â??rightâ? answers?

Do you know God?

Yes.

Do you know everything that God knows?

No, and I never will.

Job 11:7-9 "Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty? They are higher than the heavensâ??what can you do? They are deeper than the depths of the grave â??what can you know? Their measure is longer than the earth and wider than the sea.â?

Job 36:26 â??How great is Godâ??beyond our understanding!â?

Job 37:5 â??God's voice thunders in marvelous ways; he does great things beyond our understanding. â??

Job 37:23a â??The Almighty is beyond our reach and exalted in powerâ?

Job 38-41

Job 42:3 (Job speaking) â??You [the LORD] asked, 'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?' Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know.â?

Do you wonder why the LORD didnâ??t tell Job that someday he would understand everything? If you think someday we will know everything God knows, then I wonder.

Psalm 147:5 â??Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.â?

Isaiah 55:9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.â?

[Freedom in Truth]

Do you not own a Bible, Freedom in Truth? If you will read Genesis 3:22, you will find that Paul Ray is correct (although what God actually said was, 'the man is become as one of us', but let's leave the door for polytheism closed for now). If you do not own a Bible (which I am beginning to think is a distinct possibility), biblegateway.com is always there when you need it!

(Unless you need it during a power outage or a server failure; then, I'm afraid, you'll actually need to own a physical Bible. The Mormon Church offers them for free, FYI.)

If you do alreay own a Bible, I don't see that. You will have to show me.

Wow - you don't sound like you are in a good mood this morning!

I own a Bible. I actually own a zillion of them in different translations, etc. I was taking into account Paul's interpretation. And, God names one way they are like Him, which in any interpretation doesn't seem to lead one to conclude that Adam and Eve were the same species as God. (Unless having one thing in common with another being automatically makes you the same species as they are.)

I gave you the link to biblegateway.

TCM, if our conversation frustrates you maybe you would have more peace on another thread. It's not good for your health to be so frustrated so early in the day.

[Freedom in Truth]

The standard works are very easily accessible... if nothing else you can read them online.

I know this. You need to show me how you make sense of them for I cannot.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

I don't think your teachings agree with all the teachings your church has taught in the past.

Paul - I think that would depend upon your interpretations... and my interpretation of what you just said.

Your church has changed on issues - blacks and the priesthood for one. I believe it is called ongoing revelation or something like that.

I do too. But we do have leaders who have established and will clarify our doctrines.

... it is always best to appeal to the authorities for our answers.

You have taught me that authorities and scriptures donâ??t matter in comparison to what God directly tells you.

It is most important what God tells you personally.

[TrashcanMan79]

I believe it is called ongoing revelation or something like that.

This idea seems rather novel to you. Are you sure you own a Bible? I see you can quote from it, but have you read it? If you will, I think you may find things like 'ongoing revelation' (or something like that) in its pages!

Edited to add: I need to use more smilies, perhaps, lest my amusement and sarcasm be mistaken for frustration! The only thing that would frustrate me, Freedom in Truth, is if you were to stop posting here!

[Freedom in Truth]

You're presupposing that we (men and women) aren't all a part of the same "species" with God.

Yes I am. One God. God is not an exalted human being. Youâ??re presupposing that they are the same species.

From the scriptures we are told that men and women were created in the form and image of God.

â??Created in the imageâ? doesnâ??t mean being the same species as God. A sculpture can be created in my image - but it isnâ??t a human being.

If your support for being created in the â??formâ? of God is Biblical, please cite the verse(s). I donâ??t know what youâ??re thinking here.

Please remember that I donâ??t approach the Bible as a buffet. If you want to know what the Bible is revealing on a certain subject you have to look at all relevant verses.

We aren't told that God created men and woman as a species different than him.

We arenâ??t told that men and women are the same species as God. We canâ??t assume this because we arenâ??t told they are different species (in those exact words). And we are repeatedly told that God is above us in every way. His qualities are infinite. We would be doing well to be able to simply stand in His Awesome Presence.

We are told that everything was created after its own kind.

Genesis 1:12 â??The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds.â?

Genesis 1:21 â??So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind.â?

Genesis 1:25 â??God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds.â?

Genesis 1:26a â??Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,â?

If we are created after our own kind, then why was the wording changed in verse 26 to describe this? A pattern had been set up, but it was broken in verse 26 . . . why? Why didnâ??t it say, â??God made man according to their kind . . .â??

You can't take yourself out of the equation no matter what you do, my brother.

You are the person who does what you do, even if you allow God to work through you.

If I were self-serving I would sign up with the group that believes God wants me to be rich and famous and that He will answer all my prayers the way I want Him too. Or I might not believe at all - following God certainly has made my life a lot harder.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Good verses Evil doesnâ??t mean the two sides are equal.

Paul - I didn't say it did. I said they were opposites. You were saying they weren't.

No, I was saying they are not equal opposites. Considering equal opposites - God has no opposite.

God is equal with God, and there are at least 3 persons who are God.

One God. No equal.

I was saying that he [satan] is interested in us. I didn't say he has "good" intentions.

But to Satan his intentions are the best intentions he can imagine. He thinks it is good to oppose God.

I donâ??t think Satan is running on good feelings about himself. I donâ??t think he imprisons us and thinks his intentions are good. Do you think serial killers think they are doing something good? Iâ??m not even sure they are always thinking. Do you think everyone who tells a lie or disobeys, etc. feels that they are doing something good? I donâ??t know about you, but when I sin I donâ??t usually have good intentions. I am simply thinking about ME and what I want.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Hmmm . . . it does sound like something Satan might do - convince people that heâ??s not SO evil. Have you read â??The Screwtape Lettersâ??

Paul - No. Are they any good?

Very good. A short book, but thereâ??s a lot to think about. I recommend it to TCM, too. Lots of psychology in it.

[Freedom in Truth]

Awwhh. I wanted that.

...

Can I borrow it?

Perhaps you will win the toaster oven for #800!

[Freedom in Truth]

Sometimes a person might only have hope to hang onto.

Since our hope is only found in God we hold on to God.

[Freedom in Truth]

Boy did I have a time getting logged in here today!! Was the site down or something or was it just me?

Freedom in Truth--- Thank you for my new electric mixer. That actually is exactly what I need. Paul Ray of course you can borrow it but you have to promise to give it back since it took so long for me to get that. :-D

You're most welcome!

[Freedom in Truth]

This idea seems rather novel to you. Are you sure you own a Bible? I see you can quote from it, but have you read it? If you will, I think you may find things like 'ongoing revelation' (or something like that) in its pages!

Edited to add: I need to use more smilies, perhaps, lest my amusement and sarcasm be mistaken for frustration! The only thing that would frustrate me, Freedom in Truth, is if you were to stop posting here!

The idea that is new to me is that ongoing revelation can contradict previous revelation.

Yeah, when I can't see your face or body language or hear your tone your posts can sound harsh and angry. I will try to remember that you don't mean them that way.

[Freedom in Truth]

And I know you have also made your position very obvious to everyone here.

That is good. I think it is important to believe something and to stand on what you believe.

How do you know what the scriptures are in the first place?

This verse (test the spirits) is in 1 John, so I look at the context. â??Examining the scripturesâ? is in Acts 17 with Paul. So the question would be - what were the scriptures to John, to Paul? Test what you hear by examining what John and Paul had as scriptures.

Without a witness from God, they are just a bunch of words.

With a witness from God they are His Word. We are told to test what we hear by examining what John and Paul considered scripture. Do you do this?

... and yes, I did address this issue, just not in the way that you were expecting me to.

Clear communication is important, Paul.

[TrashcanMan79]

The idea that is new to me is that ongoing revelation can contradict previous revelation.

I think there's a fine line between 'contradiction' and... and... whatever rationalizations people of faith use when confronted with contradictions (you know what I'm talking about here).

If new revelation somehow alters understanding or interpretations of previous revelation, do we have a contradiction? If so, then there's this book called the Bible which you may want to look a little closer at....

PROGRESSIVE REVELATION: Three Paradigm Shifts of Beliefs and Practices in the Bible: Satan, Ritual Animal Sacrifices, Holy Days

and

PROGRESSIVE REVELATION: Three More Paradigm Shifts of Beliefs & Practices Within the Bible: Transferability of sin, afterlife, status of women

Does the Bible contradict itself in these matters? Or is it just 'ongoing revelation'? Is it all in the eye of the beholder?

[Neighbor]

I think there's a fine line between 'contradiction' and... and... whatever rationalizations people of faith use when confronted with contradictions (you know what I'm talking about here).

If new revelation somehow alters understanding or interpretations of previous revelation, do we have a contradiction? If so, then there's this book called the Bible which you may want to look a little closer at....

PROGRESSIVE REVELATION: Three Paradigm Shifts of Beliefs and Practices in the Bible: Satan, Ritual Animal Sacrifices, Holy Days

and

PROGRESSIVE REVELATION: Three More Paradigm Shifts of Beliefs & Practices Within the Bible: Transferability of sin, afterlife, status of women

Does the Bible contradict itself in these matters? Or is it just 'ongoing revelation'? Is it all in the eye of the beholder?

That God reveals to man is one thing. That God cannot lie is another.

Do you believe Jesus gave John Revelation by way of telling him what to write of the vision he saw?

[TrashcanMan79]

Do you believe Jesus gave John Revelation by way of telling him what to write of the vision he saw?

No.

[Son]

I think there's a fine line between 'contradiction' and... and... whatever rationalizations people of faith use when confronted with contradictions (you know what I'm talking about here).

If new revelation somehow alters understanding or interpretations of previous revelation, do we have a contradiction? If so, then there's this book called the Bible which you may want to look a little closer at....

PROGRESSIVE REVELATION: Three Paradigm Shifts of Beliefs and Practices in the Bible: Satan, Ritual Animal Sacrifices, Holy Days

and

PROGRESSIVE REVELATION: Three More Paradigm Shifts of Beliefs & Practices Within the Bible: Transferability of sin, afterlife, status of women

Does the Bible contradict itself in these matters? Or is it just 'ongoing revelation'? Is it all in the eye of the beholder?

It was all in the lessons and approach of the master to His students.

The symbols have value based on what one can learn from them.

We are at school on this earth.

Experimentation is a big part of our lab studies.