How Can We Know When We Hear

[consiglieri]

Are there any consolation prizes for 801?

[Paul Ray]

Thanks!

Cheater.

Tell him what he won, Bob.

And I was never ever here. None of you ever saw me. This is your imagination talking.

... and please don't ever forget that you never heard me.

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]

Perhaps quoting some squib and reposting will do the trick.

[...]

I hope you meant that in the literary way, and not the archaic definition. If the latter was meant, then Iâ??m glad you didnâ??t get 800.

Neener-neener squirrel eater (and by â??squirrel eater,â? I mean that you like eating Kellerâ??s top piece).

[consiglieri]

I hope you meant that in the literary way, and not the archaic definition. If the latter was meant, then Iâ??m glad you didnâ??t get 800.

Neener-neener squirrel eater (and by â??squirrel eater,â? I mean that you like eating Kellerâ??s top piece).

Confound it, that's a raccoon!

And I meant "squib" in the purely Harry Potter definition; that being a person born of magical parents with no magical abilities.

I don't spend all my time with law books, you know!

--Consiglieri

[Freedom in Truth]

TCM - I had another thought about 1, 2, 3 John. I remembered that John was known to have a temper - anger. He was known as the â??Sons of Thunderâ? with his brother. Here is one illustration -

Luke 9:51-56 As the time approached for him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem. And he sent messengers on ahead, who went into a Samaritan village to get things ready for him; but the people there did not welcome him, because he was heading for Jerusalem. When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, "Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?" But Jesus turned and rebuked them, and they went to another village.

Later in his life, John was known to speak about Love a lot - his epistles show this. So, because of Johnâ??s epistles we see the transformation of Johnâ??s personality. I think this is important. As John walked with God his anger melted into love.

[Freedom in Truth]

More on Genesis 3:22 -

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. (NIV)

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil (KJV)

The verse says that man BECAME like â??one of usâ?. That would mean that before this, man WAS NOT like â??one of usâ?. If your belief is that man is a god like God (same species) then this verse presents two issues -

1. Interpreting this verse to support that man was always the same species as god (as Paul Ray does) would not work since it says that man BECAME like God. What species was man before he ate the fruit?

2. This verse seems to imply that man became a god when he DISOBEYED. Man became like God when he disobeyed? What does this say about Godâ??s character?

P.S. I used "Paul Ray" to avoid possible confusion with the apostle Paul.

[Paul Ray]

More on Genesis 3:22 -

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. (NIV)

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil (KJV)

The verse says that man BECAME like â??one of usâ?. That would mean that before this, man WAS NOT like â??one of usâ?. If your belief is that man is a god like God (same species) then this verse presents two issues -

1. Interpreting this verse to support that man was always the same species as god (as Paul Ray does) would not work since it says that man BECAME like God. What species was man before he ate the fruit?

2. This verse seems to imply that man became a god when he DISOBEYED. Man became like God when he disobeyed? What does this say about Godâ??s character?

P.S. I used "Paul Ray" to avoid possible confusion with the apostle Paul.

I'd enjoy discussing this with you on another thread, just not this thread.

There's just something about using the same thread to discuss a lot of other issues that just doesn't sit right with me.

I will say, though, that God didn't give me the same ideas that you have about this issue.

If you want to see how I would respond to your statements, start another thread on this issue.

... or read what we (LDS) have already said about this issue.

... or find sombody else who doesn't mind using the same read thread to discuss everything.

This is just one more attempt to try to communicate with you.

[Hammer]

More on Genesis 3:22 -

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. (NIV)

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil (KJV)

The verse says that man BECAME like â??one of usâ?. That would mean that before this, man WAS NOT like â??one of usâ?. If your belief is that man is a god like God (same species) then this verse presents two issues -

1. Interpreting this verse to support that man was always the same species as god (as Paul Ray does) would not work since it says that man BECAME like God. What species was man before he ate the fruit?

2. This verse seems to imply that man became a god when he DISOBEYED. Man became like God when he disobeyed? What does this say about Godâ??s character?

P.S. I used "Paul Ray" to avoid possible confusion with the apostle Paul.

He qualified that statement of man becoming like them with this: knowing good from evil. That has nothing to do with what species they were at the time of learning this thing about good and evil.

My children are may offspring, human as I am human--- yet they will learn and grow to be MORE like me in learning, personalities, and nature as they mature. That is what God was talking about in the Garden.

We become more like our Father as we learn obedience by what we suffer. Isn't that what Christ did? Learned he obedience by what he suffered?

Heb. 5: 8

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

[Freedom in Truth]

No, I'm not presupposing that men and women are the same species as God. God has confirmed that we are to me through personal revelation... and I see nothing in the scriptures to refute that idea.

Weâ??re the same species as God (and Jesus), yet we have to be told this? We donâ??t know? Jesus seemed to know, but you donâ??t? No one told Jesus He was God, yet you must be told by a Mormon to know? Jesus was able to lead a sinless life - you canâ??t. Why are you not like Jesus if you are the same species?

So, God (and Jesus) are exalted humans - super-humans with super powers? How big are God and Jesus? And, if they are larger than we are did they grow when they died? Where are they? In the Celestial Kingdom? The Talmud says the Jews believed in seven heavens (which JS probably didnâ??t know since he probably didnâ??t research Jewish thought). You all only have three. Why is Jesus here at all - doesnâ??t He get to start His own world? Where does God reside? Does He fly around? Does He transport Himself like in Star Trek? Or does He, by some kind of telepathy, just â??thinkâ? Himself to another place?

2 Chronicles 6:18 "But will God really dwell on earth with men? The heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!â?

Isaiah 66:1 This is what the LORD says: "Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where is the house you will build for me? Where will my resting place be?

God sounds very big.

Psalm 91:15a â??He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble,â?

Psalm 139:7b-8 â??Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.â?

God will be with EVERYONE who calls on Him in trouble? Certainly people get in trouble at the same time in different places. God can be everywhere anyone goes? That would be difficult for someone with a body.

Matthew 18:20 â??For where two or three come together in my name, there am I [Jesus] with them."

How does Jesus do this? He canâ??t be with everyone who comes together, right? And, when He is with a group, why canâ??t they see Him? Does He have invisible powers? Why would He? Why would He mind believers seeing Him?

Matthew 28:20b â??And surely I [Jesus] am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Well, that canâ??t be true. He cannot be with me and with you and with everyone else at the same time and all the time.

Then we have the problem of God/Jesus being able to hear everyone who talks to them at once. Not only can they hear everyone, but they can understand and answer all the individual voices.

You are a god in embryo, so to speak. Are you showing ANY signs of being able to do any of these things? If you are progressing shouldnâ??t you be getting a little better at these skills?

(Add to this that the Jews, the people that penned the OT, believed in one God, and that God and man are not the same species. - Everymanâ??s Talmud - The Major Teachings of the Rabbinic Sages by Abraham Cohen)

[Paul Ray]

Freedom of Truth,

This is me not responding to your comments because you are off subject in this thread.

Perhaps you are now ready to post these thoughts in another thread?

Maybe?

... a thread with a subject about the topic you want to discuss?

[Freedom in Truth]

I'm simply saying that the scriptures can be interpreted to convey the idea that man and woman are of the same species as God... even though some people do not agree with that idea.

You are among those who believe we are NOT of the same species, and I am among those who believe that we are.

See my post on Genesis 3:22 (Post #806). Also -

John 1:12 â??Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of Godâ?

The word â??becomeâ? is used again. This means we â??becomeâ? children of God when we believe - which means we werenâ??t children of God before.

Read the creation story in Genesis. I don't think I need to cite the exact words for you.

You said we were created in the image and form of God. There are verses that say â??imageâ?. I was wondering what verses you used to support being created in the â??formâ? of God.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Please remember that I donâ??t approach the Bible as a buffet. If you want to know what the Bible is revealing on a certain subject you have to look at all relevant verses.

Paul - I agree with that approach. Please feel free to use other scriptures that describe what we are.

I am simply saying that men and women are all the same species as God. I'm not saying that we are as perfect as God. Other prophets have said that we are as God, in embryo. I think we have a long way to go before we will be perfected.

You have shown me a few verses that say we are made in the image of God, which you are choosing to interpret to mean that we are the same species as God. There are many verses that say there are no other gods and that man is not comparable to God. Your interpretation has to work with all these verses - all the verses that tell you something about man and about God.

Prophets of God have conveyed that idea. You simply don't believe those people are prophets of God.

You donâ??t agree with your â??prophets of Godâ?. JS said there are three gods. You say there is just one God. This is just one example I have given you. You seem to treat the teachings of your prophets as a buffet too - you select what you like and leave the rest. These are prophets of your own church chosen by God.

God is simply more perfected than we are. We are the children of God.

We can â??becomeâ? the children of God -

John 1:12 â??Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of Godâ?

Godâ??s qualities and powers are way above yours. They are out of your reach. When it comes to omnipresence, omniscience, omnipotence, etc. you do not resemble God at all.

1 Kings 8:23a "O LORD, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven above or on earth below.â?

But you say there is, Paul. You are like Him.

Job 37:23a â??The Almighty is beyond our reach and exalted in powerâ?

The Almighty is not beyond your reach, Paul, according to your interpretation.

Psalm 35:10 â??My whole being will exclaim, â??Who is like you, O LORD ?â??â?

The psalmist is wrong - we are all like God (according to you).

Isaiah 44:6-7 "This is what the LORD saysâ?? Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and lay out before me what has happened since I established my ancient people, and what is yet to comeâ?? yes, let him foretell what will come.â?

You, Paul, have proclaimed it. You are like Him.

Ezekiel 28:2 Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, â??This is what the Sovereign LORD says: In the pride of your heart you say, â??I am a god; I sit on the throne of a god in the heart of the seas.â?? But you are a man and not a god, though you think you are as wise as a god.â?

But you are just like the ruler of Tyre - you have said you are a god. And, according to you, the ruler of Tyre was not wrong.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Genesis 1:12 â??The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds.â?

Genesis 1:21 â??So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind.â?

Genesis 1:25 â??God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds.â?

Genesis 1:26a â??Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,â?

If we are created after our own kind, then why was the wording changed in verse 26 to describe this? A pattern had been set up, but it was broken in verse 26 . . . why? Why didnâ??t it say, â??God made man according to their kind . . .â??

Paul - God wants us to exercise faith to acquire knowledge of God. You are arguing about semantics.

Whoever wrote this was inspired to or had a reason for changing the pattern. Genesis 1 has a liturgical feel. The repetition and pattern is important as a memory aid and for speaking the passage in unison. The change in pattern in verse 26 wasnâ??t just random - there was a reason. Weâ??re not talking about semantics here.

Do you really believe that... that following God has made your life harder?

What is so hard about following God???

Matthew 5:44 â??But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute youâ?

Matthew 13:21b â??When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.â?

Persecution seems to be a given in the life of the follower of Christ. And -

Matthew 10:34-39 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn

" 'a man against his father,

a daughter against her mother,

a daughter-in-law against her motherinlawâ??

a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'

"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.â?

[Hammer]

Then we have the problem of God/Jesus being able to hear everyone who talks to them at once. Not only can they hear everyone, but they can understand and answer all the individual voices.

You are a god in embryo, so to speak. Are you showing ANY signs of being able to do any of these things? If you are progressing shouldnâ??t you be getting a little better at these skills?

Can you feel your little finger at the same time as you feel your foot? We are part of God. Can the Sun warm all in its path without sitting upon each individual place? Can not God do this as well?

Read Section 88 of the D&C and understand that God is in all things. Even John 1 teaches this. Even The Word was with God and was God teaches us there is more than one.

[Freedom in Truth]

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

No, I was saying they are not equal opposites. Considering equal opposites - God has no opposite.

Paul - I disagee. I believe Satan is as wicked as God is righteous. I believe they are complete opposites.

... and I believe each of them believe their way of being is the best way to be.

Satan, for me, is the opposite of perhaps the angel Gabriel. Satan, for you, would be the opposite of Jesus I think.

Anytime God/Jesus come against Satan God/Jesus win. That is not equal opposites.

[Freedom in Truth]

Freedom of Truth,

This is me not responding to your comments because you are off subject in this thread.

Perhaps you are now ready to post these thoughts in another thread?

Maybe?

... a thread with a subject about the topic you want to discuss?

I am responding to your posts, Paul. You respond to some off-subject posts but you want to cut off my responses. O-K.

You seem to not want to hear my replies. That makes me wonder why. But, I respect your wishes and I will not reply to any more of your posts on this thread.

. . . maybe I like talking to you. Maybe I want to know how you can think what you think.

[Dan Vogel]

Does Vogelâ??s bio include information on the possible psychological reasons why JS needed to be someone very grand? I have come across this now and then and it really interests me.

Not really. I get accused of writing a psychobiography, but I didn't do Freudian analysis. You will get what you are looking for in Robert Anderson's Inside the Mind of Joseph Smith, where JS's narcissistic traits are discussed.

[Son]

Do we know if we can hear yet?

over 800 posts delving into pondering. Are we there yet?

[Doctor Steuss]

Do we know if we can hear yet?

over 800 posts delving into pondering. Are we there yet?

Iâ??m not sure. But for some reason, I get the feeling that this thread somehow hastened the Second Coming.

[TrashcanMan79]

You seem to not want to hear my replies. That makes me wonder why.

He does want to hear your replies (as do I), but, as we've been saying in several posts for a while now, we would like specific threads to discuss specific issues. We're all over the map in this thread, and Paul and I are of the opinion that discussion will be more effective and enjoyable if our focus was narrowed. That's all. Just take a quote of his or mine that you have responded to and would like more feedback on, and open a new thread with it. That's it. Simple.

Plus, there are several spin-off threads that were started for this express purpose, and you have been a no-show as of late. Not because you don't have input, but because you have been spending your time here while Paul and I have wished to discuss topics from this thread in a more detailed and focused manner in other threads. Yet you remain here. Please see Paul's Bible & Book of Mormon contradiction thread, and please, when you get time, see the posts directed to you in the JS & Occult thread and the Bible continuity thread.

We want to continue discussion with you, but not in this free-for-all, any topic goes, scattershot of a thread. Won't you join us?

[Neighbor]

So how does God say we are to identify false prophets, lest we be found following one and thinking this person a prophet of God? Israel followed false prophets. Gods warning is to stay true to Him rather than follow or believe a prophet who has not been speaking words God gave. We could waite until sudden calamity, but then it will be too late. Why not hear what Jeremiah said in chapter 23?

[Paul Ray]

He does want to hear your replies (as do I), but, as we've been saying in several posts for a while now, we would like specific threads to discuss specific issues. We're all over the map in this thread, and Paul and I are of the opinion that discussion will be more effective and enjoyable if our focus was narrowed. That's all. Just take a quote of his or mine that you have responded to and would like more feedback on, and open a new thread with it. That's it. Simple.

Plus, there are several spin-off threads that were started for this express purpose, and you have been a no-show as of late. Not because you don't have input, but because you have been spending your time here while Paul and I have wished to discuss topics from this thread in a more detailed and focused manner in other threads. Yet you remain here. Please see Paul's Bible & Book of Mormon contradiction thread, and please, when you get time, see the posts directed to you in the JS & Occult thread and the Bible continuity thread.

We want to continue discussion with you, but not in this free-for-all, any topic goes, scattershot of a thread. Won't you join us?

Yeah. What he said.

Thank you, TrashcanMan.

... and btw, I think of you as kinda like the tin man.

... and like him, you already do have a heart.

[Paul Ray]

So how does God say we are to identify false prophets, lest we be found following one and thinking this person a prophet of God? Israel followed false prophets. Gods warning is to stay true to Him rather than follow or believe a prophet who has not been speaking words God gave. We could waite until sudden calamity, but then it will be too late. Why not hear what Jeremiah said in chapter 23?

False prophets teach what is false, and claim it's from God.

We can know what is true by learning from God, personally.

See?

It's simple.

Some people just want us to believe what they say or believe what other people tell us.

... when the only way to know Truth is to know God, personally.

... and please don't try to make me convince you that I know what, and who, the Truth is.

[freakin a man]

Is this like the longest thread that has ever been on this board. This is post 822

[Freedom in Truth]

And there are many who would agree with you. Tell me, though, what are your thoughts on this?:

The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were "gods" and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him-for we can prevent Him, if we choose-He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said.

That's C.S. Lewis, if you didn't recognize it.

Yes - Mere Christianity, p. 174. Lewis was an orthodox Christian. Wouldnâ??t you think it unlikely that he would believe people can become gods as Mormons believe? These are his thoughts on Matthew 5:48. Notice he puts the word â??godâ? in quotes. He says a god or goddess is â??a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His [Godâ??s] own boundless power and delight and goodness.â? Lewis says a god or goddess glorifies God and reflects back to God HIS power and delight and goodness. An object which reflects light is not producing light on its own.

It is dangerous to take one quote from someone without attempting to understand the totality of the personâ??s position. (Perhaps it is merely wishful thinking.) I donâ??t have Mere Christianity at hand, but here are some other quotes from Lewis -

"The human mind has no more power of inventing a new value than of planting a new sun in the sky or a new primary colour in the spectrum..." (Christian Reflections)

If we have to power to be gods I think Lewis would clearly say, and we would have the power to do the above that Lewis is saying we do not have the power to do. But the next quote is even better -

"What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man. What God creates is not God; just as what man makes is not man. That is why men are not Sons of God in the sense that Christ is. They may be like God in certain ways, but they are not things of the same kind. They are more like statues or pictures of God." (Mere Christianity, p. 157)

You read Mere Christianity, right TCM? Did you see this? Wouldnâ??t it, at the very least, make you wonder about the meaning of the quote you gave me?

QUOTE(Freedom in Truth @ May 21 2007, 01:23 PM)

And (again not being sarcastic) it is possible that God would have rather used you than me to be a voice in the wilderness, but you werenâ??t willing to raise your hand.

Paul - I'm not sure what you're talking about. . . .

Isaiah 6:8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?"

And I said, "Here am I. Send me!"

Isaiah 40

[MorningStar]

Iâ??m not sure. But for some reason, I get the feeling that this thread somehow hastened the Second Coming.

Oh my goodness! How did I miss this thread? It's ginormous! Last one to post loves Jesus the most!

[freakin a man]

Does the person who does the 1000th post get an award?