How Can We Know When We Hear

[Son]

THE SECOND EPISTLE OF PAUL THE APOSTLE TO

2TIMOTHY 3

5 Having a form of godliness, but bdenying the power thereof: from such turn away.

THis is more representative of present day LDS expression. Where is the power?

Rom. 2: 14

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Because they are led by the spirit of Christ.

[jwhitlock]

LDS presently teach that Exaltation comes after death. The far off.

When Christ taught the kingdom is at hand, and is within you. The now.

You're avoiding my question. You indicated that we could be glorious now. Please point me to an example of someone or the characteristic of being glorious now.

[Son]

You're avoiding my question. You indicated that we could be glorious now. Please point me to an example of someone or the characteristic of being glorious now.

Those that are thankfull for all things shall be made glorious, the making is in the now, the receiving is at the point of thankfullness.

I am being made glorious as we speak, and everyone else that holds to this promise is as well.

Most do not understand this promise, nor its way of fullfillment, so they will receive it in the far off or not at all, depending on desire.

Try it, be thankfull for the good the bad and the ugly, truly thankfull, and let the light of Christ fill your being with praise, love, and gratitude (the great attitude), and watch yourself grow into the son of God you are meant to be.

John the beloved understood

Enoch (the whole city)

Jesus

Mary

Mary M

Stephen

James

Matthew

Joseph Smith

Elijah

Writer of the Odes of Solomon

And Contemporaries who's names would mean nothing to you.

[Calm]

LDS presently teach that Exaltation comes after death. The far off.

When Christ taught the kingdom is at hand, and is within you. The now.

Not quite.

Exaltation is a process. The final state will come after death, but many aspects of exaltation can be received as blessings in the here and now.

I'd like to see how you are equating the kingdom of God with personal exaltation. I don't see it.

Those that are thankfull for all things shall be made glorious, the making is in the now, the receiving is at the point of thankfullness.

I am being made glorious as we speak, and everyone else that holds to this promise is as well.

Most do not understand this promise, nor its way of fullfillment, so they will receive it in the far off or not at all, depending on desire.

Try it, be thankfull for the good the bad and the ugly, truly thankfull, and let the light of Christ fill your being with praise, love, and gratitude (the great attitude), and watch yourself grow into the son of God you are meant to be.

There is nothing contrary that I read here to LDS beliefs.

[Son]

Not quite.

Exaltation is a process. The final state will come after death, but many aspects of exaltation can be received as blessings in the here and now.

I'd like to see how you are equating the kingdom of God with personal exaltation. I don't see it.

It is a process, exaltation is not dependant upon one dying. It is based on an open heart and a contrite spirit that has grown from grace to grace, until you are wrapped in the power and glory of your maker and caught up to dwell with Him. Translation, Immortal,Quickened, Perfected, Holy, One, Christlike. These all describe the completion and there are many scriptures that point to it being an earthly blessing, not in the far off, or after death.

[jwhitlock]

Those that are thankfull for all things shall be made glorious, the making is in the now, the receiving is at the point of thankfullness.

I am being made glorious as we speak, and everyone else that holds to this promise is as well.

Most do not understand this promise, nor its way of fullfillment, so they will receive it in the far off or not at all, depending on desire.

Try it, be thankfull for the good the bad and the ugly, truly thankfull, and let the light of Christ fill your being with praise, love, and gratitude (the great attitude), and watch yourself grow into the son of God you are meant to be.

John the beloved understood

Enoch (the whole city)

Jesus

Mary

Mary M

Stephen

James

Matthew

Joseph Smith

Elijah

Writer of the Odes of Solomon

And Contemporaries who's names would mean nothing to you.

All right, I'll pursue this a little further.

And how can we tell that a person is glorious now? Is there any outward manifestation? Or can you better define what it means to be "glorious"?

[Hammer]

Your making a leap that I don't believe in God's appointed Prophets to be of high, value, and divine guidance.

The qualifier is GODS APPOINTED Prophets.

My kind, nice touch.

LDS presently teach that Exaltation comes after death. The far off.

When Christ taught the kingdom is at hand, and is within you. The now.

And who do you suppose is to give us the 'notice' of who is and who isn't qualified to be called God's appointed prophets?

I didn't mean "you kind' to sound as brash as it did. I was trying to make a point about those who believe as you do.

Exaltation is a state of being requiring an exalted physical body. I'm sure God could and maybe has changed people without them dying. Is this what you are seeking? But these have not continued to walk the earth. Do you expect to walk the earth after you are twinkled?

The kingdom of God with in you is referring to 'kingdom of glory' or intelligence. This kingdom is in a developing stage through experience. You sound like you want to have a short cut of sorts. Most who have gone through the change without death were high up in the kingdom of God before this life, and high up among His prophets here on earth.

Could you tell me who and what level of these you are and have obtained?

[Hammer]

Those that are thankfull for all things shall be made glorious, the making is in the now, the receiving is at the point of thankfullness.

I am being made glorious as we speak, and everyone else that holds to this promise is as well.

Most do not understand this promise, nor its way of fullfillment, so they will receive it in the far off or not at all, depending on desire.

Try it, be thankfull for the good the bad and the ugly, truly thankfull, and let the light of Christ fill your being with praise, love, and gratitude (the great attitude), and watch yourself grow into the son of God you are meant to be.

John the beloved understood

Enoch (the whole city)

Jesus

Mary

Mary M

Stephen

James

Matthew

Joseph Smith

Elijah

Writer of the Odes of Solomon

And Contemporaries who's names would mean nothing to you.

We do become more 'intelligent' or glorious as you prefer to state it (D&C 93: 36

36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth. ) and these will rise with us as taught in D&C 130: 18

18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.

We become more filled with the charity or pure love of Christ. This is the love that fills us with light as taught in 1 Jn. 2: 8-11

8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

10 He that loveth his bbrother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

love is light

light is truth

truth is intelligence

intelligence is glory

glory is the kingdom

[Son]

All right, I'll pursue this a little further.

And how can we tell that a person is glorious now? Is there any outward manifestation? Or can you better define what it means to be "glorious"?

There are those that minister to the saints from time to time, this can be observed mostly in times of emergency when our focus is amplified.

Those that are glorious, partake in the work of God. To bring about the immortallity and eternal life of those that seek it. Their presence is first felt, then seen as one learns to hear the voice of God and become still.

I have and do experience this truth, to go further is not usefull, it must be sought by each individual son and daughter. It takes place in God's holy temple (you). As an LDS you understand that there are sacred things that are not able to be expressed nor should be unless instructed by God to do so.

To be glorious is to be one with the light of Christ. To say no word or perform no act, save it is by the divine guidance of our Heavenly Father. It is absent of all lightmindedness, and has eyes single to the Glory of God.

Outward manifestations are listed in the new testament, they shall speak with the tongues of angels, mount up with wings of eagles (come and go as the wind), as Jesus, or the Apostles in Acts, or John the beloved.

Heal the sick the lame the blind the halt. Drink any deadly thing and not die, be bitten by a viper and not get ill.

Not just in times of emergency but along with the work of God, on a daily basis, not some rare occasion that could be miscontrued as a chance miracle.

No doubt these Saints are rare, they are rare because of unbelief, and the traditions of generations, that have lost the way to the higher way. One must be cleansed of all unrighteousness.

The Odes of Solomon in the lost books speaks of these things, they are glorious and dismissed because the thoughts are so high, man has lost the vision to see, and the ears to hear.

son

[Son]

And who do you suppose is to give us the 'notice' of who is and who isn't qualified to be called God's appointed prophets?

Paul said that we should all have the gift of Prophecy, that it is available to all that fulfill the promise of being, and seeking first the kingdom of God.

If there is to be a Prophet sent by God, then he surely would operate with the power of God, in order to convey what ever it is that God wants him to convey. His testimony would say and Joseph Smiths said, an angel of the lord appeared to me. John and James appeared to me. Jesus and God appeared to me and said thus;..............

Called of God means, called of God. Directly.

I didn't mean "you kind' to sound as brash as it did. I was trying to make a point about those who believe as you do.

And how do you perceive that I believe?

Exaltation is a state of being requiring an exalted physical body. I'm sure God could and maybe has changed people without them dying. Is this what you are seeking? But these have not continued to walk the earth. Do you expect to walk the earth after you are twinkled?

It is what Christ came to reveal, to those that could receive.

Those that overcome have been able to come and go as directed or as their desire to help mankind has been granted, which are pretty much the same thing, godhood brings true freedom.

The meek shall inherit the earth.

What comes of me, has yet to be seen, and yes I do seek to please God.

The kingdom of God with in you is referring to 'kingdom of glory' or intelligence. This kingdom is in a developing stage through experience. You sound like you want to have a short cut of sorts. Most who have gone through the change without death were high up in the kingdom of God before this life, and high up among His prophets here on earth.

Intelligence is a shorter path than stupidity. Every tool has its blessing.

God is no respector of persons, if you do as He says then He is bound to keep His promise.

Is this a short cut? Jesus said; Take my yoke upon you, for it is easy, and my burden is Light.

(even the light of Christ).

Could you tell me who and what level of these you are and have obtained?

More than many, Less than some.

[jwhitlock]

There are those that minister to the saints from time to time, this can be observed mostly in times of emergency when our focus is amplified.

Those that are glorious, partake in the work of God. To bring about the immortallity and eternal life of those that seek it. Their presence is first felt, then seen as one learns to hear the voice of God and become still.

I have and do experience this truth, to go further is not usefull, it must be sought by each individual son and daughter. It takes place in God's holy temple (you). As an LDS you understand that there are sacred things that are not able to be expressed nor should be unless instructed by God to do so.

To be glorious is to be one with the light of Christ. To say no word or perform no act, save it is by the divine guidance of our Heavenly Father. It is absent of all lightmindedness, and has eyes single to the Glory of God.

Outward manifestations are listed in the new testament, they shall speak with the tongues of angels, mount up with wings of eagles (come and go as the wind), as Jesus, or the Apostles in Acts, or John the beloved.

Heal the sick the lame the blind the halt. Drink any deadly thing and not die, be bitten by a viper and not get ill.

Not just in times of emergency but along with the work of God, on a daily basis, not some rare occasion that could be miscontrued as a chance miracle.

No doubt these Saints are rare, they are rare because of unbelief, and the traditions of generations, that have lost the way to the higher way. One must be cleansed of all unrighteousness.

The Odes of Solomon in the lost books speaks of these things, they are glorious and dismissed because the thoughts are so high, man has lost the vision to see, and the ears to hear.

son

If I understand, then, those that are "glorious" are here in the world among us - and they intermingle among those who are wicked.

From what I understand, wickedness cannot abide light, and those who are glorious would be filled with light - yet they would still be among the wicked here. How would you handle that paradox?

[Neighbor]

That is the paradox that troubles me most about JS and BY. When we read the teachings of Jesus Christ we come to things like loving our enemies, yet it was the 'revelations' that Missouri was the promised land of Mormonism which God granted the property and land of the 'gentiles' to be consecrated to Mormons.

Jesus never taught that.

So why do Mormons believe it? How do you know those teachings were of God and not of man?

Due to the 'fruit' of the behavior I have little conclusion to reach but that it was surely of man and that God did destroy those who spoke falsely in His name.

Anyone want to deal with that?

[jwhitlock]

That is the paradox that troubles me most about JS and BY. When we read the teachings of Jesus Christ we come to things like loving our enemies, yet it was the 'revelations' that Missouri was the promised land of Mormonism which God granted the property and land of the 'gentiles' to be consecrated to Mormons.

Jesus never taught that.

So why do Mormons believe it? How do you know those teachings were of God and not of man?

Due to the 'fruit' of the behavior I have little conclusion to reach but that it was surely of man and that God did destroy those who spoke falsely in His name.

Anyone want to deal with that?

I'm always a little leery when someone says that Jesus only taught that we should love our neighbor, and I come across scriptures such as Luke 19:27, at the end of the parable of the nobleman, where it says:

27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Not that this was what the Saints were commanded to do, but God certainly reserves the right to reassign lands to other peoples - such as what He did with the Israelites when the moved in from wandering for 40 years. Jesus certainly taught about the conflict that would come with the preaching of the gospel.

Before responding specifically to what the Saints were given, however, I'd need to know exactly what you were referencing when you say God granted the property and land of the Gentiles to be consecrated to the Mormons.

You also need to be careful in assuming that bad things always only happen to people who are wrong or sin or speak falsely in His name. Bad things happen to both the good and bad for a variety of reasons, and oftimes the wicked prosper - at least for now (see Mal 3:14-15).

[Son]

If I understand, then, those that are "glorious" are here in the world among us - and they intermingle among those who are wicked.

From what I understand, wickedness cannot abide light, and those who are glorious would be filled with light - yet they would still be among the wicked here. How would you handle that paradox?

Is Jesus limited to where he can go?

Did Joseph see Moroni, The Apostles, Jesus and God, on earth?

Enlightened ones can dim their light when they appear on this plane. There are many examples in scripture.

They can also serve without being seen. Multi dimensional.

I could explain it further but not here.

[Son]

Is Jesus limited to where he can go?

Did Joseph see Moroni, The Apostles, Jesus and God, on earth?

Enlightened ones can dim their light when they appear on this plane. There are many examples in scripture.

They can also serve without being seen. Multi dimensional.

I could explain it further but not here.

Bump,

Son

Post killer apostite

[Paul Ray]

If I understand, then, those that are "glorious" are here in the world among us - and they intermingle among those who are wicked.

Yes, I think so, in a sense.

"Those that are glorious and are here in the world among us" are saints of Jesus Christ, our Lord, "and they intermingle among those who are wicked" by sharing the light that they have to try to turn our attention to our Savior.

From what I understand, wickedness cannot abide light, and those who are glorious would be filled with light - yet they would still be among the wicked here. How would you handle that paradox?

Try figuring that one out for yourself.

Hint: It might benefit you to try to use some other words to understand someone's thoughts, instead of only relying on preconceived ideas you may have.

Can you imagine how the light of Christ can drive wickedness from us?

[jwhitlock]

Try figuring that one out for yourself.

Hint: It might benefit you to try to use some other words to understand someone's thoughts, instead of only relying on preconceived ideas you may have.

Can you imagine how the light of Christ can drive wickedness from us?

I agree with what you've indicated above. The problem was, however, is that there are terms used in the scriptures such as "eternal life" and "glorious" that have specific meanings that are applied to situations after this life. When God is described as glorious, for instance, it is a state of being that doesn't apply to anyone here in this temporal mortality. When we are promised that we will be glorious, it applies to being glorious in the same sense that God is glorious - and that type of glory destroys temporal, mortal things when it comes in unprotected contact with them. It also is promised for after this life.

Certainly we can have light, and there can be effects of that light in our lives that drive away wickedness. But it was a stretch, in my opinion, to apply the scriptural definition of "glorious" to the here and now.

[Paul Ray]

I agree with what you've indicated above. The problem was, however, is that there are terms used in the scriptures such as "eternal life" and "glorious" that have specific meanings that are applied to situations after this life. When God is described as glorious, for instance, it is a state of being that doesn't apply to anyone here in this temporal mortality. When we are promised that we will be glorious, it applies to being glorious in the same sense that God is glorious - and that type of glory destroys temporal, mortal things when it comes in unprotected contact with them. It also is promised for after this life.

Certainly we can have light, and there can be effects of that light in our lives that drive away wickedness. But it was a stretch, in my opinion, to apply the scriptural definition of "glorious" to the here and now.

I think I can see why you think what you think, but I think you are limiting yourself now.

How do you know you already know everything the word "glorious" refers to?

I believe our Lord still had all his glory while he was walking among mortals, even though not everybody could see it. And I believe we can have all the glory we once had with our Father just as soon as we're sanctified by our Savior... and I believe there are many who are sanctified, or saints, among us now.

I think of the day of our final judgment as the day when we will be sorted out to live with the people we have chosen to be like, rather than a day when we will receive something we cannot have at this time or any day when we have received the atonement.

I don't think we need to see someone surrounded by a halo of light, or something like that, to recognize who the saints are among us, and that seems to be what you are saying.

[jwhitlock]

I think I can see why you think what you think, but I think you are limiting yourself now.

How do you know you already know everything the word "glorious" refers to?

I believe our Lord still had all his glory while he was walking among mortals, even though not everybody could see it. And I believe we can have all the glory we once had with our Father just as soon as we're sanctified by our Savior... and I believe there are many who are sanctified, or saints, among us now.

I think of the day of our final judgment as the day when we will be sorted out to live with the people we have chosen to be like, rather than a day when we will receive something we cannot have at this time or any day when we have received the atonement.

I don't think we need to see someone surrounded by a halo of light, or something like that, to recognize who the saints are among us, and that seems to be what you are saying.

Interesting conjecture. You may possibly be right. However, I do see significant constraints imposed upon us in mortality that diminish what we once had.

See D&C 130:2 - Joseph Smith indicates that we will have a glory then which we do not enjoy now.

See also D&C 129:6 - just men made perfect can only appear in their glory, before they are resurrected.

Just food for thought.

[Paul Ray]

Interesting conjecture. You may possibly be right. However, I do see significant constraints imposed upon us in mortality that diminish what we once had.

See D&C 130:2 - Joseph Smith indicates that we will have a glory then which we do not enjoy now.

When I think of what I think Joseph was referring to, I think of a better environment where we will be able to live our lives like we want to live our lives... in peace, for instance. I don't think of how I, individually, will be any different. I think I'll always be the way I choose to be wherever I live.

See also D&C 129:6 - just men made perfect can only appear in their glory, before they are resurrected.

I can see that as support for what you are saying, and I don't have a problem with that interpretation.

I'm just saying that glory doesn't always necessarily refer to our physical image.

Our Lord was a "just man made perfect" before his resurrection, and not everyone could see all of his glory.

Just food for thought.

I've taken what you offered and will give you some of my food.

And I will also refer you to where you can find more.

(that's me, symbolically looking up to heaven)

[jwhitlock]

I've taken what you offered and will give you some of my food.

And I will also refer you to where you can find more.

(that's me, symbolically looking up to heaven)

Already looking there.

[Paul Ray]

Already looking there.

That's good to hear.

Some people seem to think we only have books and other people to listen to.

[Son]

I agree with what you've indicated above. The problem was, however, is that there are terms used in the scriptures such as "eternal life" and "glorious" that have specific meanings that are applied to situations after this life. When God is described as glorious, for instance, it is a state of being that doesn't apply to anyone here in this temporal mortality. When we are promised that we will be glorious, it applies to being glorious in the same sense that God is glorious - and that type of glory destroys temporal, mortal things when it comes in unprotected contact with them. It also is promised for after this life.

Certainly we can have light, and there can be effects of that light in our lives that drive away wickedness. But it was a stretch, in my opinion, to apply the scriptural definition of "glorious" to the here and now.

Why would terms to define God, be different towards His children, whom He desires us to become like Him?

[jwhitlock]

Why would terms to define God, be different towards His children, whom He desires us to become like Him?

They wouldn't; it's simply a matter of timing.

[Son]

They wouldn't; it's simply a matter of timing.

Okay, When Jesus said the Kingdom is at hand, the kingdom is within you.

Does that invoke a message of timing?

Or

Upon leaving the principles and doctrines of Jesus Christ, go unto perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance and faith toward God and the doctrines of baptism and the laying on of hands etc....

Go unto perfection.

Does God limit our growth? Does He say, you've lived by my principles and doctrines and have become perfect, but you need to die and then after awhile you can be like me?

Jesus said the things that I do ye shall do and More, to them that believe.

So belief seems to be the qualifier, not time.