How Can We Know When We Hear

[TrashcanMan79]

I recommend it [screwtape Letters] to TCM, too. Lots of psychology in it.

No, thanks. Mere Christianity was enough for me.

[Paul Ray]

Please support that people can be god of their own world populated with their own spirit children. Please support it plainly. Thank you.

Heh, oops. I should have also clarified that the only ideas I would be able to plainly support are the ideas that are revealed to us by God in our canon of scriptures and our official doctrine. The ideas you have asked me to find support for are not among the ideas we teach as official doctrine, although our doctrine can lead some people to believe in the ideas you have, in a sense.

For instance, we are told that the atonement of Jesus Christ has, will, or at least can restore us to the condition Adam and Eve were in before their fall... a condition in which a man and a woman were together on a planet with the ability to have children, eat, sleep, and commune with God... with additional benefits such as a better understanding of good and evil and a resurrected body that would never again be subject to corruption or death.

In a sense, what I described could also be described as us becoming "god of our own world populated with our own spirit children, after we/they have children, but I would prefer to use some other words.

Then why do you ignore â??test the spiritsâ? by examining the scriptures? It seems to clash with your belief of just asking God. Youâ??ve never addressed this.

I do "test the spirits by examining the scriptures", in a sense. I "test the spirits" by asking God if God has inspired people to write words which other people refer to as scripture, and if so, how God wants me to interpret those words that he (God) has inspired. That is how I "test the spirits by examing the scriptures".

And no, this method does not clash with my belief of just asking God. It is God who tells me what words are scripture.

And I have addressed this issue before, although I may not have used exactly these same words.

It may help you to realize that words are symbols, as you examine the idea(s) behind them, and with God as your guide you can know what is true in any words you will read anywhere... or even as people speak them before those words are written down.

God has personally assured me that the Holy Bible and the Book of Mormon (and some other books) are among writings that God regards as scripture, and when I examine all those writings I can see that they agree or harmonize with the truths they have in common.

I guess you think I donâ??t ask God because I donâ??t come up with the â??rightâ? answers?

I don't know if you ask God or not. All I know is that you don't know some of the things I know that God has taught me.

No, and I never will. (know everything, including everything about God)

You seem to be limiting yourself.

I believe I will have all of eternity to keep learning everything, so at some point I will know everything... as long as I keep learning about all that is out there.

Do you wonder why the LORD didnâ??t tell Job that someday he would understand everything? If you think someday we will know everything God knows, then I wonder.

No, I don't wonder about that. My point is that God never said Job wouldn't learn everything.

[Paul Ray]

I know this. (that the scriptures are readily available) You need to show me how you make sense of them for I cannot.

You've come to the right place if you want my understanding of the scriptures. I have shared and will keep sharing my thoughts with you.

... let's just not talk about everything in this particular thread. Okay?

... and please don't limit yourself to only understanding my thoughts of the scriptures.

... because it's always better to learn from God, personally.

Your church has changed on issues - blacks and the priesthood for one. I believe it is called ongoing revelation or something like that.

Yes.

You have taught me that authorities and scriptures donâ??t matter in comparison to what God directly tells you. It is most important what God tells you personally.

Yes, what is most important to me is what God tells me, personally, but I wouldn't say that authorities (other than God) and scriptures don't matter. God has personally assured me that God has authorized certain people, so to me those persons are all God to me in those things in which they have God's authority. And the words that have been written by people who have God's authority are also as God's words to me, personally... at least insofar as they apply to me, personally.

God works through other people and inspires words to be written, so when God works through other people, they are God... at least to me.

The power of God is awesome.

[Paul Ray]

Yes I am. One God. God is not an exalted human being. Youâ??re presupposing that they are the same species.

No, I'm not presupposing that men and women are the same species as God. God has confirmed that we are to me through personal revelation... and I see nothing in the scriptures to refute that idea.

â??Created in the imageâ? doesnâ??t mean being the same species as God.

I'm simply saying that the scriptures can be interpreted to convey the idea that man and woman are of the same species as God... even though some people do not agree with that idea.

You are among those who believe we are NOT of the same species, and I am among those who believe that we are.

A sculpture can be created in my image - but it isnâ??t a human being.

Heh, of course a sculpture isn't a human being. I never said that it was.

If your support for being created in the â??formâ? of God is Biblical, please cite the verse(s). I donâ??t know what youâ??re thinking here.

Read the creation story in Genesis. I don't think I need to cite the exact words for you.

Please remember that I donâ??t approach the Bible as a buffet. If you want to know what the Bible is revealing on a certain subject you have to look at all relevant verses.

I agree with that approach. Please feel free to use other scriptures that describe what we are.

I am simply saying that men and women are all the same species as God. I'm not saying that we are as perfect as God. Other prophets have said that we are as God, in embryo. I think we have a long way to go before we will be perfected.

We arenâ??t told that men and women are the same species as God.

Prophets of God have conveyed that idea. You simply don't believe those people are prophets of God.

We canâ??t assume this because we arenâ??t told they are different species (in those exact words).

I usually try to avoid making assumptions about anything.

And we are repeatedly told that God is above us in every way.

God is simply more perfected than we are. We are the children of God.

His qualities are infinite. We would be doing well to be able to simply stand in His Awesome Presence.

Yes, and yes, but we would be doing even better to become exactly like God, male and female.

Genesis 1:12 â??The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds.â?

Genesis 1:21 â??So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind.â?

Genesis 1:25 â??God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds.â?

Genesis 1:26a â??Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,â?

If we are created after our own kind, then why was the wording changed in verse 26 to describe this? A pattern had been set up, but it was broken in verse 26 . . . why? Why didnâ??t it say, â??God made man according to their kind . . .â??

God wants us to exercise faith to acquire knowledge of God. You are arguing about semantics.

If I were self-serving I would sign up with the group that believes God wants me to be rich and famous and that He will answer all my prayers the way I want Him too. Or I might not believe at all - following God certainly has made my life a lot harder.

Do you really believe that... that following God has made your life harder?

What is so hard about following God???

No, I was saying they are not equal opposites. Considering equal opposites - God has no opposite.

I disagee. I believe Satan is as wicked as God is righteous. I believe they are complete opposites.

... and I believe each of them believe their way of being is the best way to be.

I donâ??t think Satan is running on good feelings about himself. I donâ??t think he imprisons us and thinks his intentions are good. Do you think serial killers think they are doing something good? Iâ??m not even sure they are always thinking. Do you think everyone who tells a lie or disobeys, etc. feels that they are doing something good? I donâ??t know about you, but when I sin I donâ??t usually have good intentions. I am simply thinking about ME and what I want.

I'll try to illustrate how Satan and God are opposites.

People like Satan think about, from their perspective, me, me, me.

People like God think about, from their perspective, all other people.

We all need to do some things to take care of ourselves, individually, though.

Very good. A short book, but thereâ??s a lot to think about. I recommend it to TCM, too. Lots of psychology in it.

Okay, it may be a good book. I will check it out for myself.

I recommend the Book of Mormon to you.

[Freedom in Truth]

That's not what I believe. I believe my Father was God even when he was a baby. There may have been a point when he wasn't exactly like his father, in each and every way then, but he was still God, just as always.

And if you need a point of reference, just look to the example of Jesus Christ.

Is this what you are saying? We are all spirit children of the Father, just as Jesus is. Jesus, after all, is our brother. We were gods before we were born on earth. We are part of God the Father as Jesus is. So God the Father is more than 3 persons (or will be). And, the Holy Spirit, being part of God the Father, was once a man too. Jesus and God the Father and God the Fatherâ??s father, etc. always existed - even before this world was created. You always existed too.

(You do believe JS heard from God, right? JS said there were 3 gods. Other LDS sources say this too. Your idea of one God is not Mormon . . . unless Mormonism is changing on this issue.)

I believe we don't, and can't, earn "godhood".

I believe God is either what we are, in some sense, or we aren't God.

... and I believe we are God, in some sense.

Gospel Principles speaks of â??requirementsâ? for Exaltation (chapter 47). And, â??If we prove faithful to the Lord, we will live in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom of heaven.â? The â??IFâ? implies that exaltation has to be achieved, or earned in some way. In Chapter 12 (Atonement) it sounds like we have to earn godhood, however you wish to word it. I donâ??t believe Mormonism teaches that everyone will attain godhood, does it? Would that mean to you that some people who are gods donâ??t get to exist as gods?

â??However, to inherit eternal life requires our â??obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospelâ?? (Articles of Faith 1:3)". (from Gospel Topics - LDS) If I donâ??t ever accept Mormonism what am I - a god who never received godhood rights?

â??Here, then, is eternal lifeâ??to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.â? (JS, Discourses of the prophet JS, Ch. 44, p. 341)

If we have to learn to become gods then it doesnâ??t sounds like we have always been gods. Godhood is something to be attained according to JS, correct?

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

And his god (his father) was a guy who earned his godhood. And on and on and on.

Paul - And on and on you still have the wrong idea... at least according to my beliefs.

"I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that god was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for certainty the character of god and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us, yea, that God himself the father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible." (JS, History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 305)

"Let me ask, are we not taught that we as sons of God may become like him? Is not this a glorious thought? Yet we have to pass through mortality and receive the resurrection and then go on to perfection just as our Father did before us. The Prophet taught that our Father had a Father and so on. Is not this a reasonable thought, especially when we remember that the promises are made to us that we may become like him?" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, p. 12)

Are you sure you donâ??t just believe in The Gospel According to Paul Ray? Your beliefs donâ??t seem to match Mormon or traditional Christian beliefs.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Each of them had their own world with their own spirit children.

Paul - I think you're talking about things we don't know much about.

These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

2. They will become gods.

3. They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.

5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have--all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. (Gospel Principles, Ch. 47)

â??How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds, and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through. That course has been from all eternity, and it is and will be to all eternity.â? (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 333)

â??Each God, through his wife or wives, raises up a numerous family of sons and daughters; indeed, there will be no end to the increase of his own children: for each father and mother will be in a condition to multiply forever and ever. As soon as each God has begotten many millions of male and female spirits, and his Heavenly inheritance becomes too small, to comfortably accommodate his great family, he, in connection with his sons, organizes a new world, after a similar order to the one which we now inhabit, where he sends both the male and female spirits to inhabit tabernacles of flesh and bones. Thus each God forms a world for the accommodation of his own sons and daughters who are sent forth in their times and seasons, and generations to be born into the same. The inhabitants of each world are required to reverence, adore, and worship their own personal father who dwells in the Heaven which they formerly inhabited.â? (Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 37)

It sounds like Pratt believes people have a beginning.

Before you lightly toss off these quotes, please remember that these men are prophets - men who hear from God, just like you. And JS was a very special prophet, wasnâ??t he? If so, then we canâ??t take his words lightly.

I believe there never was a beginning for God. God is an eternal being.

There was never a "guy who started it all". It's like a circle. There is no beginning.

Pratt would disagree with you - see above quote.

Do you think matter is eternal? Are you eternal?

Even if there were an infinite number of â??god the fathersâ? there was a beginning. I worship The Beginning, The Creator.

Oh, I see what you are thinking now. Or at least I think I do. Here is what I believe:

Jesus Christ is the Alpha, and the being who created the beginning, in the sense that He is the one who was there at the beginning of this Earth's creation. But God didn't begin the beginning of God.

Was Jesus the only one there because he was the firstborn and everyone else wasnâ??t born yet? But . . . if you believe everyone is eternal (like Jesus) then wouldnâ??t you all have been around during earthâ??s creation?

I believe it was our Father who gave him that power... just like when our Father gave him all authority, as is mentioned in the last part of Matthew.

It sounds like you are talking about Jesus here. I was talking about the god who began everything - the father of the father of the father . . . of your God the Father. This is the one I worship - The Beginning.

I believe my God is the God who created all worlds using matter that was and is also eternal.

There was never a first quark, or another first very basic particle of matter.

If nothing else God is made of matter and the matter God is made of is eternal.

... and if you don't believe that, it seems you believe God is something that isn't tangible... as if God is only a thought or an idea or a feeling.

... even air and gas vapors contain some matter.

I also believe the most basic form of intelligence is what we refer to as life.

... and that intelligence is also eternal.

When the Bible says God is spirit I donâ??t think it means God is gas-like. I believe is a power, a energy, a Being like we canâ??t understand or imagine because we canâ??t contain the knowledge even if He told us. We can see part of His Radiance, His Glory - like seeing a lot of pure gold in the sun, you donâ??t see the gold but the radiance of the gold. God is not gold though, and Heâ??s not human. It is possible for a Being to exists that you canâ??t imagine or understand, right?

I believe the references to God as the beginning and ending are referring to the fact that he was there, and in authority, at the beginning when this Earth was created, just as he will be there and in authority at the end of the Earth's creation, as it was and is now. It is he who created and who will end this Earth as it is now.

But thatâ??s not what the references say - you have to add that in. And, read this plainly -

Isaiah 44:6-8 "This is what the LORD saysâ?? Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and lay out before me what has happened since I established my ancient people, and what is yet to comeâ?? yes, let him foretell what will come. Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."

If you are a god like God, then God doesnâ??t know about you.

Does the BoM say you are a god?

I didn't think so. But I believe God can, or at least help me know how to achieve it in my own life.

If you are a god and always have been then why do you need help? I donâ??t think you are a very powerful god if you need help. And, if you have always been a god then why didnâ??t you know it until someone told you? Why didnâ??t God the Father tell you during the first 28 years of your life? Are you saying He wouldn't tell you until you asked the right question? That makes no sense to me.

No. I left the "Church of Christ" because I found out that God had and was revealing more to us on this planet than is recorded in the Holy Bible... ideas concerning new revelation from God and the need for authority from God were key in my conversion, or progression.

But God didnâ??t reveal it to you PERSONALLY. Why not? He reveals everything personally to you now, but He wouldnâ??t back then. You were in another church because you didnâ??t know any better (according to you) but you were calling out to God, right? But He wouldnâ??t tell you - some other person had to tell you? It doesnâ??t make sense, Paul.

No, but it sure doesn't hurt.

It does hurt, Paul.

... and btw, if you can't tell, I've adopted the free-for-all format in this thread.

Perhaps we should rename this thread to â??Paul Ray and Freedom in Truth Dialogue with TCM - Others Welcomeâ?

[Freedom in Truth]

Freedom in Truth - Deification of who? God? Man?

TCM - Given the context of the discussion, the answer should be apparent. Are you purposely being obtuse? (If you aren't, the answer is man, and my apologies for calling you obtuse.)

No, I am not trying to be obtuse. It must be natural for me, for I donâ??t consider the Bible to be supporting the idea that men become gods. (I am not being sarcastic at all.) And (again not being sarcastic) it is possible that God would have rather used you than me to be a voice in the wilderness, but you werenâ??t willing to raise your hand.

Oh. When you asked if the BoM was necessary, I thought that maybe you had some criteria by which you judged scripture as necessary or not. Then I asked you about the Song of Solomon, Book of Ruth, Mark, and John's epistles to see if they were deemed necessary by your criteria. You'd rather not answer; that's okay. No biggie.

We have two different situations, TCM. In one situation we have scriptures that existed. People reviewed them and prayed about them and felt that Godâ??s Authority and Word were in them, so they were held as scripture. On the other hand we have a book that God allowed to be lost for many years (unless there was only one copy), then it had to be recreated. The original copy (the golden plates) were not allowed to stay on earth for some reason. JS was picked to do the translation - he didnâ??t know anything about the original language of the plates (whatever that was) so he had to be given each word using seer stones and a hat - about a 3 year process. That all was a lot of effort to give mankind back a lost book.

What was the purpose of going through this effort to give mankind the BoM? â??The fullness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it.â? (JSH, verse 34) Then (in JSâ??s history) JS heard Bible verses quoted - but they were different from what he knew from his Bible. So, correct me if I am wrong, but JS was given the BoM to share the â??fullness of the everlasting Gospelâ? because the Bible didnâ??t contain the fullness of the Gospel.

Exaltation must certainly be part of the â??fullness of the everlasting Gospelâ? - the Good News. So wouldnâ??t it be in the BoM? But if the BoM doesnâ??t contain any more of the Gospel than the Bible does, or if it doesnâ??t contain it any more clearer, then what was the point of going through the trouble of giving us the BoM? Remember, the BoM wasnâ??t a book already in existence - it was given for a specific purpose.

Whether or not it is 'restored' would depend on one's understanding of theosis in early Christianity contra Mormon exaltation. Whether or not it is 'important' would depend on the value one places on exaltation.

Truth? No, I don't think so.

I know I havenâ??t spoken to a zillion Mormons, but the ones I HAVE spoken to think exaltation is VERY important.

Are you saying that you personally donâ??t hold exaltation as Truth? (Iâ??m trying not to misunderstand you.)

You don't have to be Mormon to think the Bible was mucked up, trust me!

Oh, I trust you! I know you, TCM! And what do you think of the BoM?

The BoM doesn't contain every revelation God has given man. Come on now, you should have the ninth Article of Faith memorized by now.

Do you remember that link you gave me once about themes in the BoM? Could you dig it up again - I canâ??t seem to find it.

I remember you using the â??nailing Jello to the wallâ? phrase once in describing Mormon doctrine. I have another way to describe it - when JS was a treasure-seeker he would tell people to dig in a certain place. When they dug there and didnâ??t find the treasure JS would say that the treasure moved, or jumped, to another place because it didnâ??t want to be found. He would then tell the men to dig in another place. They would dig several holes, trying to capture the treasure that didnâ??t want to be found - then eventually hey would give up and go home. Mormon doctrine is like that treasure - it jumps around and doesnâ??t want to be found. If we found it and could examine it we might find out what it really is!

Not necessarily. See that ninth Article of Faith again. Then consider all the other scriptures Smith produced. Why do you think the BoM should contain the sum total of everything Mormon? Mormons believe in continuous revelation, remember. Again, read the ninth Article of Faith. Again.

The BoM should contain SOMETHING, right?

I don't know. How much do you know about the lives of the BoM people?

If the BoM people knew about exaltation I would think there would be some reference to the idea.

Different people may give different answers to this question, but see here.

To convince that Jesus is the Christ - the Bible witnesses to Christ. Covenant - the Bible is filled with covenants. The title page of the BoM quoted in your link doesnâ??t seem to have anything to do with sharing the fullness of the everlasting Gospel. I donâ??t see any ideas in this link that are not contained in the Bible.

I thought all descendants of the tribes died out. Hmmm . . .

[Freedom in Truth]

No, thanks. Mere Christianity was enough for me.

It's very different (Screwtape).

[TrashcanMan79]

It's very different (Screwtape).

Yeah, I've actually done a little reading up on it, and it does seem to be different from M.C. I think I may check it out after all.

[TrashcanMan79]

I donâ??t consider the Bible to be supporting the idea that men become gods.

And there are many who would agree with you. Tell me, though, what are your thoughts on this?:

The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were "gods" and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him-for we can prevent Him, if we choose-He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said.

That's C.S. Lewis, if you didn't recognize it.

And (again not being sarcastic) it is possible that God would have rather used you than me to be a voice in the wilderness, but you werenâ??t willing to raise your hand.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. . . .

[Paul Ray]

Is this what you are saying: We are all spirit children of the Father, just as Jesus is?

Yes, I believe the spirit of Jesus Christ was and still is exactly the same as each of our spirits, individually, at least in regards to nature and/or substance. I believe he was more like our Father than all the rest of us, though, and I believe that is why he was chosen to be our Savior... he wouldn't sin once, when at least most of the rest of us would sin at least once in our lives.

Jesus, after all, is our brother.

Yes, after all is said and done, Jesus is literally our brother, as a spirit. And he is also the Father of those of us who are born again through him. He adopts those he saves as his children.

We were gods before we were born on earth.

In a sense, I suppose you could say that. We are all literal children of God, so yes, in a sense, we are "gods", but I don't think it does any good to refer to us as "gods". I think it can lead to forming the wrong impression. (I'm referring to the "s" on the end of the word "god") Let's just refer to the person we call God as our Father. Our Lord told his apostles that his Father was their Father, and he told a common group of ordinary people to pray to our Father in heaven.

We are part of God the Father as Jesus is.

I'm not sure what you are thinking by saying that we or Jesus is "part" of our Father. Jesus is a distinct and individual person who is God, and so are we. Jesus is as perfect as our Father in heaven, though, so in that sense we are different from him and our Father.

So God the Father is more than 3 persons (or will be).

I use the word God to refer to all the persons who are God, and sometimes to only one person who is God, and sometimes to 3 persons who are God. To help avoid confusion, we could try referring to each of them by their own name.

And, the Holy Spirit, being part of God the Father, was once a man too.

Again, I don't know what you are thinking when you refer to "part" of God. The Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost) is also an individual person, who is male, and as an individual the Holy Spirit is God. We aren't told if he was, or was not, once a man like we are. Personally, I don't believe he has ever been mortal, but that doesn't mean that he can't become mortal like Jesus Christ did. Personally, I believe he will, someday.

Jesus and God the Father and God the Fatherâ??s father, etc. always existed - even before this world was created. You always existed too.

Yes, in some sense we have always existed... but we weren't always as we are now.

(You do believe JS heard from God, right?

Yes.

JS said there were 3 gods.

As I said, words are symbols. Try asking God what Joseph meant when he said that.

I know there are at least 3 persons who are God.

Your idea of one God is not Mormon . . . unless Mormonism is changing on this issue.)

I believe my idea of one God is in harmony with the "Mormon" idea of one God.

I think it's just that you can't see how my idea is in harmony with the "Mormon" idea.

... which is not surprising to me since you also can't see how the Bible and BOM are in harmony.

Gospel Principles speaks of â??requirementsâ? for Exaltation (chapter 47). And, â??If we prove faithful to the Lord, we will live in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom of heaven.â? The â??IFâ? implies that exaltation has to be achieved, or earned in some way. In Chapter 12 (Atonement) it sounds like we have to earn godhood, however you wish to word it.

However I wish to word it??? I'm trying to word it so you will understand it.

We don't earn "godhood". We are already children of God.

The goal of most LDS is to become like our Father in heaven as our Lord is one with our Father.

I donâ??t believe Mormonism teaches that everyone will attain godhood, does it?

If by "godhood" you are referring to "exaltation", which refers to us becoming like our Father in heaven, then no, we do not teach that everyone will become like our Father in heaven. Some of us will choose to become like another person or fall somewhere in the middle.

Would that mean to you that some people who are gods donâ??t get to exist as gods?

If I correctly understand the idea behind your words, it simply means that not all of us will become like our Father in heaven... whether you think of our Father as Jesus Christ or our eternal Father in heaven.

â??However, to inherit eternal life requires our â??obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospelâ?? (Articles of Faith 1:3)". (from Gospel Topics - LDS) If I donâ??t ever accept Mormonism what am I - a god who never received godhood rights?

In a sense, yes. You would be limited.

....

I'm ending my response to this post.

Next time, if you want me to respond to your comments, don't ask so many questions in one post.

And it would also be nice if you started posting in another thread, since you are now on another topic.

Do you want to discuss everything in this thread and have it go on forever?

Sorry, but I've gotta run.

edit: I'll finish responding to your post in another thread now. I have some more time.

[TrashcanMan79]

People reviewed them and prayed about them and felt that Godâ??s Authority and Word were in them, so they were held as scripture.

This is, of course, the same way that adherents of the Mormon sciptures come about their 'testimony' of the Mormon scriptures. What exactly are you trying to convince me of? That the Bible's 'authority' is no different from the Mormon scriptures'?

Surely the Bible stands on more than just people reviewing them and praying about them, for the Mormon scriptures stand on the same thing, yet the Bible is the word of God, and the Mormon scriptures ain't!

How's that again?

[TrashcanMan79]

People reviewed them and prayed about them and felt that Godâ??s Authority and Word were in them, so they were held as scripture.

I think this is a very (very) simplistic way of looking at how the canon came to be. Not everyone has agreed as to what should constitute the canon, and among the 66 books that we now have (in our Bibles sans Apocrypha) are books that have been disputed since before the canon was decided upon! (See here for lists of what was considered canonical throughout history (and by whom).)

If people determined the canon by reviewing them and praying about them, and if their impressions varied in determining what was actually God's word, then God seems to be the source of some confusion here.

Basically what we have are several different threads of tradition. How do you know you subscribe to the correct one? (And please don't say God told you!)

[TrashcanMan79]

The original copy (the golden plates) were not allowed to stay on earth for some reason.

As opposed to all the original autographs of the Bible we have floating around available for close inspection?

[TrashcanMan79]

Exaltation must certainly be part of the â??fullness of the everlasting Gospelâ? - the Good News. So wouldnâ??t it be in the BoM?

This is a question that has been asked (and answered) quite a bit:

Book of Mormon and the fulness of the gospel

Does the Book of Mormon Teach the 'Fulness of the Gospel'?

Where Is The Book of Mormon's "Fulness of the Gospel?"

I could go on, but reading just one of these should give you the idea. . . .

[TrashcanMan79]

Are you saying that you personally donâ??t hold exaltation as Truth? (Iâ??m trying not to misunderstand you.)

Correct.

[TrashcanMan79]

Do you remember that link you gave me once about themes in the BoM? Could you dig it up again - I canâ??t seem to find it.

Gosh, I link to things all the time! . . . . Are you talking about this one?

[TrashcanMan79]

And what do you think of the BoM?

I'm actually trying to fully shake my testimony of the Book of Mormon so I can be a little more comfortable in my agnosticism, but some of those 'evidences' are so ingrained in my mind that it's taking some time! You'd think that my absolute dismissal of the Bible would include a whole sale rejection of the BoM (since the BoM presupposes the truthfullness of the Bible (muck ups, notwithstanding)), but it hasn't worked that way yet. It's complicated. But I put a book on hold at my library about the Spaulding Theory (as well as Dan Vogel's Smith bio), so I'm working on it!

[TrashcanMan79]

I remember you using the â??nailing Jello to the wallâ? phrase once in describing Mormon doctrine.

Determining what is Mormon doctrine will depend upon the Mormon with whom you are speaking, this is true. But this has been my experience in speaking with Christians in general. This one believes in original sin, that one doesn't. This one believes in the absolute inerrancy of scripture, that one doesn't. This one believes in speaking in tongues, that one doesn't. This one believes in Calvinism, that one Arianism. This one believes in an Ontological Trinity, that one a Social. They all derive their beliefs from the Bible (so they will claim), yet they vary immensely.

And so it is with Mormons, although there is a bigger source pool.

I don't believe you could take all the (non-Mormon) Christians and get them to agree on what exactly constitutes correct Christian belief in every matter of doctrine, and I don't think you could get all Mormons to do likewise.

I think Christianity at large could be represented by the proverbial Jello.

[Paul Ray]

Are you saying that you personally donâ??t hold exaltation as Truth? (Iâ??m trying not to misunderstand you.

Correct.

You do realize that TrashcanMan79 isn't a member of our (LDS) church, don't you FIT.

I don't believe he ever has been.

And I don't even think he is a Christian... or at least not someone who professes to be one.

And btw, the ideas behind exaltation can be supported with the Holy Bible.

... it's not just a teaching in the Book of Mormon or only members of our Church.

Our exaltation was and is basically the purpose of the atonement of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

He certainly didn't come here to save himself.

[TrashcanMan79]

You do realize that TrashcanMan79 isn't a member of our (LDS) church, don't you FIT.

I don't believe he ever has been.

I haven't been excommunicated nor have I asked my name to be removed from the records, so, I guess, at least in a technical sense, I am a member of the Church. But it's true that I am skeptical of many of the Church's claims (as well as the claims of Christianity, in general).

And I don't even think he is a Christian... or at least not someone who professes to be one.

Correct.

[Paul Ray]

I don't believe you could take all the (non-Mormon) Christians and get them to agree on what exactly constitutes correct Christian belief in every matter of doctrine, and I don't think you could get all Mormons to do likewise.

At least we ("Mormons") have apostles who are authorized to tell us what our Lord's doctrine is... and they do that when they make decisions as a quorum... with the guidance and inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

All other Christians either have no authorized leaders (other than God) or they each have their own group of leaders while believing that only they, individually or collectively, are right while they disagree with each other.

[Paul Ray]

I haven't been excommunicated nor have I asked my name to be removed from the records, so, I guess, at least in a technical sense, I am a member of the Church.

Oh, I wasn't aware of that. It is nice to know that. I still consider you to be my brother.

But it's true that I am skeptical of many of the Church's claims (as well as the claims of Christianity, in general).

I was skeptical too, for a little while. It took a witness from God to convince me.

Correct.

I believe you can be one without admitting that you are one.

[Paul Ray]

I'm actually trying to fully shake my testimony of the Book of Mormon so I can be a little more comfortable in my agnosticism, but some of those 'evidences' are so ingrained in my mind that it's taking some time! You'd think that my absolute dismissal of the Bible would include a whole sale rejection of the BoM (since the BoM presupposes the truthfullness of the Bible (muck ups, notwithstanding)), but it hasn't worked that way yet. It's complicated. But I put a book on hold at my library about the Spaulding Theory (as well as Dan Vogel's Smith bio), so I'm working on it!

Oh, I see. You're trying to reject your testimony.

More power to you, my brother!

[TrashcanMan79]

If the BoM people knew about exaltation I would think there would be some reference to the idea.

Incidentally, some Mormons believe the BoM does reference 'the idea' at:

3 Nephi 28:10

And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are one.

But I'm convinced that scripture can say whatever you would like it to, so I won't argue over the proper interpretation of this verse (whatever that may mean). Perhaps a Mormon that believes exaltation is being alluded to here could chime in?

[Sethbag]

Doing my part to push this thread to page 40. Go go go!

By the way, so that this post isn't entirely pointless, I don't believe that LDS or anyone else can articulate a clear and repeatable way to tell between "true" confirmation from God of knowledge by the Holy Ghost and simple emotion and enthusiasm, perhaps adrenaline-fueled "revelation" received by all these other folks around the world.