How Can We Know When We Hear

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]Last one to post loves Jesus the most!

LOL! That should be the MA&D slogan. Quick, someone make T-Shirts for the August conference.

[TrashcanMan79]

FREEDOM IN TRUTH PLEASE READ:

We're just all over the place in this thread, and I'd rather narrow discussion to specific topics (like the Bible and occult spin-off threads I started).

See you there! (not here)

AND BTW, YOU ARE STILL STRAYING FROM THE SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD.

If you want to keep talking about other issues, why don't you try posting on other threads?

Seriously.

And please start a new thread to continue any of the topics we've been discussing here. (I like posting with you, but I prefer to do it in a more focused manner!)

I've read your posts to me, but I won't respond until/unless you bring it up in a new thread (my mind is on the verge of exploding in trying to follow all these threads within a thread!)

I'd enjoy discussing this with you on another thread, just not this thread.

There's just something about using the same thread to discuss a lot of other issues that just doesn't sit right with me.

If you want to see how I would respond to your statements, start another thread on this issue.

This is just one more attempt to try to communicate with you.

Freedom of Truth,

This is me not responding to your comments because you are off subject in this thread.

Perhaps you are now ready to post these thoughts in another thread?

Maybe?

... a thread with a subject about the topic you want to discuss?

He does want to hear your replies (as do I), but, as we've been saying in several posts for a while now, we would like specific threads to discuss specific issues. We're all over the map in this thread, and Paul and I are of the opinion that discussion will be more effective and enjoyable if our focus was narrowed. That's all. Just take a quote of his or mine that you have responded to and would like more feedback on, and open a new thread with it. That's it. Simple.

Plus, there are several spin-off threads that were started for this express purpose, and you have been a no-show as of late. Not because you don't have input, but because you have been spending your time here while Paul and I have wished to discuss topics from this thread in a more detailed and focused manner in other threads. Yet you remain here. Please see Paul's Bible & Book of Mormon contradiction thread, and please, when you get time, see the posts directed to you in the JS & Occult thread and the Bible continuity thread.

We want to continue discussion with you, but not in this free-for-all, any topic goes, scattershot of a thread. Won't you join us?

PLEASE ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOU HAVE READ THESE BY

STARTING A NEW THREAD FOR A SPECIFIC TOPIC OR TOPICS YOU WOULD LIKE TO DISCUSS.

Sometimes it's better to continue a discussion with a clean slate after taking a breath, you know?

Thanks!

Edited to add: I accept responsibility in following you through the doors of tangents (and for even opening some myself), but enough is enough. Please start your threads and continue giving your input on mine. Bless ya!

[TrashcanMan79]

Freedom in Truth, this post is here to serve as a redirect to the preceding post. Please read the preceding post, Freedom in Truth.

Thanks!

[TrashcanMan79]

Yeah. What he said.

Thank you, TrashcanMan.

... and btw, I think of you as kinda like the tin man.

... and like him, you already do have a heart.

Thanks.

I've always kinda thought of you as Dorothy, what with the sexy legs and the cute little dog and whatforth.

Oh wait, I'm thinking of someone else. . .

[MorningStar]

LOL! That should be the MA&D slogan. Quick, someone make T-Shirts for the August conference.

Darn I wish I could be there. I want the T-shirt!

[Son]

So how does God say we are to identify false prophets, lest we be found following one and thinking this person a prophet of God? Israel followed false prophets. Gods warning is to stay true to Him rather than follow or believe a prophet who has not been speaking words God gave. We could waite until sudden calamity, but then it will be too late. Why not hear what Jeremiah said in chapter 23?

Prophets are needed for the lost or those who do not know they can go direct. They serve and have served a mighty, and glorious purpose---seeing as us wandering children do go astray and become unfocused.

That said a need for ----- Perpetual Prophetic leadership tends to show a lack of growth. The butts in seats should not go numb, but continually change to make room for more sons & daughters.....

Paul: "I would that you all prophesi"....

[jwhitlock]

Prophets are needed for the lost or those who do not know they can go direct. They serve and have served a mighty, and glorious purpose---seeing as us wandering children do go astray and become unfocused.

That said a need for ----- Perpetual Prophetic leadership tends to show a lack of growth. The butts in seats should not go numb, but continually change to make room for more sons & daughters.....

Paul: "I would that you all prophesi"....

As far as I can see, then, we'll have a need for prophets until "we all come in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God", which won't happen until after the final judgement. Such is the nature of temporal mortality.

I, for one, appreciate the additional source of divine input that prophets provide. I need it to help me stay somewhat focused. And I think the Lord always meant to provide multiple sources of witness / inspiration to guide us. Paul was yearning for a time that will not occur until after this is all wrapped up.

[Neighbor]

The replies lead me to believe no one read the chapter before speaking?

God said what He said is not hard to understand and we don't need anyone to tell us more or what it means - His word is sufficiently understandable. Yet those who rely on what they think is right in their heart are greatly condemned. As such, it points directly back to believing what God said in the first place, which is what all the true prophets did - point the people to repent of their own ways and seek to do what God said to start with.

If you are doing what God says you don't need a prophet:-)

[Freedom in Truth]

QUOTE(Freedom in Truth @ May 21 2007, 01:23 PM)

People reviewed them and prayed about them and felt that Godâ??s Authority and Word were in them, so they were held as scripture.

TCM - This is, of course, the same way that adherents of the Mormon sciptures come about their 'testimony' of the Mormon scriptures. What exactly are you trying to convince me of? That the Bible's 'authority' is no different from the Mormon scriptures'?

Surely the Bible stands on more than just people reviewing them and praying about them, for the Mormon scriptures stand on the same thing, yet the Bible is the word of God, and the Mormon scriptures ain't!

How's that again?

Yes, that was a simple answer. That is because I felt you were off-topic in your response, which I have already posted about.

How did Mormons â??reviewâ? the BoM? Are you alluding to the following -

The Testimony of Three Witnesses - the testimony seems to be about seeing the plates and about JS translating them by the power of God - not about reviewing the text.

â?? . . . That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record . . . And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. . . .â?

The Testimony of Eight Witnesses - the testimony seems to be about seeing the plates - not about reviewing the text.

â?? . . . That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. . . .â?

Is this, however, what you consider â??reviewingâ? the text? You know how, for example, the NT books were reviewed.

â??Three criteria were used to assess the authority of these books - apostolicity, orthodoxy, and catholicity. Was a book written by an apostle or an associate of an apostle (apostolicity)? Did it conform to the teachings of other books known to be by apostles (orthodoxy)? Was it accepted early and by a majority of churches (catholicity)?â? (Reinventing Jesus by Komoszewski, Sawer, and Wallace, p. 126)

The above is still without specific detail, but letâ??s look at it in light of JS and the BoM. Mormons couldnâ??t use apostolicity - JS had no reputation or respect as a man of God before the BoM. Did anyone examine JSâ??s character or look at JSâ??s walk with God? Not that I know of. As far as I know the only thing looked at was JSâ??s claimed BoM experience. Orthodoxy? No - JSâ??s writing didnâ??t conform to any previous teachings. JSâ??s later writing didnâ??t even necessarily conform to his earlier writings. Catholicity? No - JS and the BoM were rejected by the majority of Christians of his day.

So, TCM, tell me how the BoM was reviewed?

[TrashcanMan79]

Yes, that was a simple answer. That is because I felt you were off-topic in your response, which I have already posted about.

How did Mormons â??reviewâ? the BoM? Are you alluding to the following -

The Testimony of Three Witnesses - the testimony seems to be about seeing the plates and about JS translating them by the power of God - not about reviewing the text.

â?? . . . That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record . . . And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. . . .â?

The Testimony of Eight Witnesses - the testimony seems to be about seeing the plates - not about reviewing the text.

â?? . . . That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. . . .â?

Is this, however, what you consider â??reviewingâ? the text? You know how, for example, the NT books were reviewed.

â??Three criteria were used to assess the authority of these books - apostolicity, orthodoxy, and catholicity. Was a book written by an apostle or an associate of an apostle (apostolicity)? Did it conform to the teachings of other books known to be by apostles (orthodoxy)? Was it accepted early and by a majority of churches (catholicity)?â? (Reinventing Jesus by Komoszewski, Sawer, and Wallace, p. 126)

The above is still without specific detail, but letâ??s look at it in light of JS and the BoM. Mormons couldnâ??t use apostolicity - JS had no reputation or respect as a man of God before the BoM. Did anyone examine JSâ??s character or look at JSâ??s walk with God? Not that I know of. As far as I know the only thing looked at was JSâ??s claimed BoM experience. Orthodoxy? No - JSâ??s writing didnâ??t conform to any previous teachings. JSâ??s later writing didnâ??t even necessarily conform to his earlier writings. Catholicity? No - JS and the BoM were rejected by the majority of Christians of his day.

So, TCM, tell me how the BoM was reviewed?

*Sigh*

Please read post #827, Freedom in Truth. Pleeeeease. With sugar on top. Pretty please.

Please read it.

Thanks!

PS - Please read it.

Edited to add: Mods, can we get some help here?

[Freedom in Truth]

I think this is a very (very) simplistic way of looking at how the canon came to be. Not everyone has agreed as to what should constitute the canon, and among the 66 books that we now have (in our Bibles sans Apocrypha) are books that have been disputed since before the canon was decided upon! (See here for lists of what was considered canonical throughout history (and by whom).)

If people determined the canon by reviewing them and praying about them, and if their impressions varied in determining what was actually God's word, then God seems to be the source of some confusion here.

Basically what we have are several different threads of tradition. How do you know you subscribe to the correct one? (And please don't say God told you!)

â??(And please don't say God told you!)â? - Hey, thatâ??s Paulâ??s line! I donâ??t ever hear you give him trouble for using it!

Many books excluded from the cannon were found to be forgeries. 3 Corinthians was found to be a forgery - its author was known. The Gospel of Peter, the Letter to the Laodiceans and the Letter to the Alexandrians were also found to be forgeries. The heretical gospels (infancy gospels, Gnostic gospels) - have you read them? They are . . . wild in my opinion. They present a different view from earlier gospels and from each other. The NT books line up with each other and with the OT. Jesus quoted from much of the OT - if the teachings he quoted were wrong I think He would have said so.

I think you know about textural criticism so I donâ??t think I need to remind you here. People didnâ??t just have â??impressionsâ? of Godâ??s Word. They didnâ??t just get a burning in their heart that signaled them. They used their mind as well.

Yes - the books of the OT and NT present one view - one Truth. You could say (if you wished) that they present the wrong truth and other books rejected from the cannon are the right truth. And Mormonism can say they have truth, but they also present a different truth than the Bible, which they admit by saying that â??plain and precious truths were lostâ?. Can the Mormon claim be proved in any way? If not, then they cannot prove they have the original truth of the Bible. Why do you think it is so important to Mormons to claim that they have the original truth of the Bible? Why donâ??t they just say they have truth?

[TrashcanMan79]

â??(And please don't say God told you!)â? - Hey, thatâ??s Paulâ??s line! I donâ??t ever hear you give him trouble for using it!

Many books excluded from the cannon were found to be forgeries. 3 Corinthians was found to be a forgery - its author was known. The Gospel of Peter, the Letter to the Laodiceans and the Letter to the Alexandrians were also found to be forgeries. The heretical gospels (infancy gospels, Gnostic gospels) - have you read them? They are . . . wild in my opinion. They present a different view from earlier gospels and from each other. The NT books line up with each other and with the OT. Jesus quoted from much of the OT - if the teachings he quoted were wrong I think He would have said so.

I think you know about textural criticism so I donâ??t think I need to remind you here. People didnâ??t just have â??impressionsâ? of Godâ??s Word. They didnâ??t just get a burning in their heart that signaled them. They used their mind as well.

Yes - the books of the OT and NT present one view - one Truth. You could say (if you wished) that they present the wrong truth and other books rejected from the cannon are the right truth. And Mormonism can say they have truth, but they also present a different truth than the Bible, which they admit by saying that â??plain and precious truths were lostâ?. Can the Mormon claim be proved in any way? If not, then they cannot prove they have the original truth of the Bible. Why do you think it is so important to Mormons to claim that they have the original truth of the Bible? Why donâ??t they just say they have truth?

I take your repeated, intentional ignoring of my repeated requests to continue discussion in new threads as a deliberate show of disrepect for me. It seems you're more interested in having the last word than in actually continuing dialogue, so to that end, enjoy the last word.

[Momus]

Get this thread back on topic. Freedom in truth get out of this thread.

[Paul Ray]

Thanks.

I've always kinda thought of you as Dorothy, what with the sexy legs and the cute little dog and whatforth.

Oh wait, I'm thinking of someone else. . .

Yeah, I think so, too.

I think you are thinking of my wife, not me.

We are one, but still we are different.

Oh, and, uh, to try to get this thread back on topic, I'll say, uh, that

I know how to know when God is speaking to me because I know who God is, personally.

[Paul Ray]

God said what He said is not hard to understand and we don't need anyone to tell us more or what it means - His word is sufficiently understandable.

Where did God say this, exactly.

I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm not saying you're right.

Please just show me where God personally said that.

I think you're referring to the words of someone else who was saying that God said what he said.

I could be wrong, though. It has happened before.

Yet those who rely on what they think is right in their heart are greatly condemned.

You think so?

I hope not. I think I just need to be careful not to rely only upon my heart, or my own thoughts about something. I think I need personal revelation from God to know the truth when I see it, and my heart can also be somewhat useful.

As such, it points directly back to believing what God said in the first place, which is what all the true prophets did - point the people to repent of their own ways and seek to do what God said to start with.

But to do what God says we need to know what God says, and I think we can only know that personally.

The words of any prophet are just the words of a person until we know God inspired what they said.

... by a personal assurance from God to each one of us, personally.

If you are doing what God says you don't need a prophet:-)

I find it useful to learn from all of God's prophets, even though I can also learn from God, personally.

Some people have thoughts I haven't even thought about yet, and together we can learn more about God... once God assures us that what we are hearing is true.

[jwhitlock]

The replies lead me to believe no one read the chapter before speaking?

God said what He said is not hard to understand and we don't need anyone to tell us more or what it means - His word is sufficiently understandable. Yet those who rely on what they think is right in their heart are greatly condemned. As such, it points directly back to believing what God said in the first place, which is what all the true prophets did - point the people to repent of their own ways and seek to do what God said to start with.

If you are doing what God says you don't need a prophet:-)

These are extraordinary claims - and not borne out by any experience familiar to me.

Were you referring to Jeremiah 23 or another chapter?

PLEASE provide some reference that God thinks the scriptures (which I'm going to assume you are referring to when you talk about His word) are sufficiently understandable in and of themselves as written and that no one is needed to help us understand them. And then read Acts 8:30-31 where Phillip assists someone in understanding the scriptures.

If you're doing what God says, you don't need a prophet?? I know of only one source that would make such a statement - and it isn't God.

The point is, you need to have the Spirit in order to understand what you hear or read. It is the Spirit of discernment and will guide you to all truth (John 16:13), including the truth that is not always clear in the scriptures.

[freakin a man]

The replies lead me to believe no one read the chapter before speaking?

God said what He said is not hard to understand and we don't need anyone to tell us more or what it means - His word is sufficiently understandable.

Understandable to whom? Everyone has their own understanding. When two are three bible believer gather together, a fight usually will break out. I see this all the time in Yahoo Christian Chat rooms. Whether voice or text chat, people are fighting with each other. In fact I see more harmony between those who are fans of Harry Potter than those of that believe in the Bible.

The scriptures are often not understandable without the spirit of revelation.

[Son]

As far as I can see, then, we'll have a need for prophets until "we all come in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God", which won't happen until after the final judgement. Such is the nature of temporal mortality.

I, for one, appreciate the additional source of divine input that prophets provide. I need it to help me stay somewhat focused. And I think the Lord always meant to provide multiple sources of witness / inspiration to guide us. Paul was yearning for a time that will not occur until after this is all wrapped up.

There were Prophets that saw the kingdom afar off, rather than the now. Shall we follow them, and not overcome in the now.

Everything that the Father has is ours, Now, if we live according to His divine example.

He has, and will prepare the way for our fullfilment if we live according to His way.

He who is thankfull in all things shall be made glorious.........now.

Can you give me some examples of how the Prophet has kept you focused?

[jwhitlock]

There were Prophets that saw the kingdom afar off, rather than the now. Shall we follow them, and not overcome in the now.

Everything that the Father has is ours, Now, if we live according to His divine example.

He has, and will prepare the way for our fullfilment if we live according to His way.

He who is thankfull in all things shall be made glorious.........now.

Can you give me some examples of how the Prophet has kept you focused?

So, you consider yourself glorious now?

The prophet keeps me focused by telling us that the Church continues to be led by revelation and that the Lord is in charge through duly authorized leaders as currently constituted. The Spirit continues to confirm that particular point with me.

[Son]

So, you consider yourself glorious now?

The prophet keeps me focused by telling us that the Church continues to be led by revelation and that the Lord is in charge through duly authorized leaders as currently constituted. The Spirit continues to confirm that particular point with me.

Does any particular revelation from the prophet stand out to you; one that gave you focus?

No I am not glorious, but you knew that.

[Hammer]

These are extraordinary claims - and not borne out by any experience familiar to me.

Were you referring to Jeremiah 23 or another chapter?

PLEASE provide some reference that God thinks the scriptures (which I'm going to assume you are referring to when you talk about His word) are sufficiently understandable in and of themselves as written and that no one is needed to help us understand them. And then read Acts 8:30-31 where Phillip assists someone in understanding the scriptures.

If you're doing what God says, you don't need a prophet?? I know of only one source that would make such a statement - and it isn't God.

The point is, you need to have the Spirit in order to understand what you hear or read. It is the Spirit of discernment and will guide you to all truth (John 16:13), including the truth that is not always clear in the scriptures.

I agree JWhitlock. I would also like to see a scripture reference stating that God's word has no need of prophets. After all, didn't they all come by the mouth of prophets?

[Hammer]

There were Prophets that saw the kingdom afar off, rather than the now. Shall we follow them, and not overcome in the now.

Everything that the Father has is ours, Now, if we live according to His divine example.

He has, and will prepare the way for our fullfilment if we live according to His way.

He who is thankfull in all things shall be made glorious.........now.

Can you give me some examples of how the Prophet has kept you focused?

If a prophet is teaching Christ, love, personal purity in a world that has so many medium teaching the opposite, keeping our eye on the prophet and our ear tuned to his words, is safety. Many who are out there have said-- A bible, a bible, we have a bible we have no need of more. This too was spoken by a prophet warning that there would be men like you and Neighbor who believe they don't need the prophets today.

I believe there has been your kind in every generation since the world began. Still there were prophets given in every generation. Even those we know not of.

[Hammer]

THE SECOND EPISTLE OF PAUL THE APOSTLE TO

2TIMOTHY 3

5 Having a form of godliness, but bdenying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Rom. 2: 14

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

[jwhitlock]

Does any particular revelation from the prophet stand out to you; one that gave you focus?

No I am not glorious, but you knew that.

Yes, I suspected as much - perhaps you need to clarify what you meant by becoming glorious "now".

Most recent message from the prophet is the June Ensign, first article. I found that President Hinckley's message in there caused me to focus on several things somewhat more clearly.

[Son]

If a prophet is teaching Christ, love, personal purity in a world that has so many medium teaching the opposite, keeping our eye on the prophet and our ear tuned to his words, is safety. Many who are out there have said-- A bible, a bible, we have a bible we have no need of more. This too was spoken by a prophet warning that there would be men like you and Neighbor who believe they don't need the prophets today.

I believe there has been your kind in every generation since the world began. Still there were prophets given in every generation. Even those we know not of.

Your making a leap that I don't believe in God's appointed Prophets to be of high, value, and divine guidance.

The qualifier is GODS APPOINTED Prophets.

My kind, nice touch.

Yes, I suspected as much - perhaps you need to clarify what you meant by becoming glorious "now".

Most recent message from the prophet is the June Ensign, first article. I found that President Hinckley's message in there caused me to focus on several things somewhat more clearly.

LDS presently teach that Exaltation comes after death. The far off.

When Christ taught the kingdom is at hand, and is within you. The now.