How Can We Know When We Hear

[TrashcanMan79]

TCM, I think you are missing some information here. No one will argue that the Bible contains verses that say we are saved by faith through grace and not by works. There are also verses that suggest that we must work out our salvation. Then we have James 2:22 - â??You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.â? To the Greek mind this is a contradiction, but not to the Jewish mind. Because these verses seem to contradict to Greek thinkers they struggled with ways to understand them.

I'm not sure what the difference between a 'Greek mind' and a 'Jewish mind' is, but it seems to me that if the Bible says we are saved by grace, not works, and then it also tells us that we must work out our own salvation, then one must harmonize these two ideas to arrive at the truth (if one believes the Bible does not contradict itself on this issue). So some might believe that it is grace and grace alone that saves us, and our works are the fruit of saving faith or something we do after we are saved to show our love for God (or whatever). But then others might harmonize these two ideas by suggesting that our faith coupled with our obedience to God's commandments will ulitmately result in our salvation (or something).

The case can be made biblically for each of these opposing schools of thought. Which idea is the product of the 'Jewish mind' and which the 'Greek'?

[TrashcanMan79]

Are you sure the differences in peopleâ??s beliefs are based on different interpretations of scripture?

There are other factors, I'm sure, but it is easy enough to see that people who believe the Bible are at odds with each other as to how it is to be properly interpreted. The thing don't interpret itself, that's for sure!

[TrashcanMan79]

TCM, if you continue to look at the Bible through Greek eyes and not approach it attempting to understand Hebraic thought and literature, it will truly remain â??all Greekâ? to you.

Hey! I resemble that remark!

I don't think my understanding of the Bible is especially deficient. I have studied it for years and I continue to study it, though not through the lens of faith. I have studied the origins of the Bible and have learned quite a bit about things Hebrew, and this has not somehow compelled me to all of a sudden believe it is the inspired word of God.

Understanding the Bible does not necessarily equal believing the Bible. (And, lamentably, believing the Bible does not necessarily equal understanding the Bible.)

[TrashcanMan79]

Are you sure the differences in peopleâ??s beliefs are based on different interpretations of scripture?

from Four Methods Used to Interpret the Bible (If there's more than one method to interpret the Bible, you can be assured there is more than one interpretation of it. If you base your beliefs on what you think the Bible says, then there will be as many different beliefs as there are interpretations! Are we really in disagreement here?) :

"

Christian denominations as well as individual Christians -- theologians, clergy and laity -- hold a wide range of assumptions about the nature of the Bible. Different assumptions lead to different methods of interpreting the text. As a result, they reach very diverse conclusions about what it actually says.

"

[Freedom in Truth]

I think FIT hasn't received some of the ideas that I have received from God, which now helps me to understand some specific issues, and that without those ideas he doesn't have those ideas to work with, which would help him to have God's understanding.

To get into specifics, we would need to talk about the specific issues, so I can tell him some things God has told me which has helped me to understand those issues... and/or he could also ask God the same questions I asked God when I was trying to understand those issues.

FIT doesn't really need to learn from me about anything, since he can ask God just as well as I can, but it may help to give him some ideas about some questions that I asked God, instead of having to come up with them, himself.

To gain knowledge from God, I believe it helps to ask specific questions.

I believe God is the initiator - He reveals to us. Of course we can ask questions, but I think it is wiser to do a LOT of listening. God has revealed Himself in His Word - my questions are often about what something means, or what God wants me to get out of a certain passage. God may give me immediate understanding, but often God points me to study. Even if God gives me immediate understanding I always check it out. Then there are questions pertaining to my personal life that I ask - where to live, what to do today, how to serve others today, etc.

Teachers usually deliver information before they ask their students if there are any questions. They are asking their students if they have any questions about the information already communicated. Why do you think this is true, Paul?

[Freedom in Truth]

I'm not entirely sure. It would make an interesting discussion. I'll see what I can find. While I might stop short of saying it's been 'definitely proven', I am tempted to say that in some cases, scholars of all stripes are in agreement that the traditional author, in all likelihood, did not write what has been attributed to him.

And BTW, you can't disprove a negative. (Can you prove that fairies DON'T exist?)

I donâ??t know a lot about law, but I believe one can attempt to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Col. Mustard did not knife Mr. Green in the ballroom at 1 PM yesterday. One might be able to prove that Col. Mustard was eating a late lunch in the dining room with Mrs. White at that time. Wouldnâ??t that be proving that Col. Mustard DID NOT knife Mr. Green?

It seems to me, TCM, that we discuss many things that cannot be definitely proven. You decide to stand on those unprovable ideas that support what you want to believe. If you sincerely consider any other ideas contrary to what you have already chosen to believe I donâ??t really see that. I say this because you donâ??t seem to look at material yourself - you seem to rely on what so-and-so said about them. You put your faith in those who say what you seem to want to hear. You are free to do this (if this is what you are doing), but realize that you believe some ideas that canâ??t be proven, just like you think we are doing.

I think everyone chooses to believe something that canâ??t TOTALLY be proven - everyone puts their faith in something. But I hope people will choose wisely, using their honest thinking skills and their humble heart/conscience/spirit.

I know someone who needs to lose weight to keep their job. They have gone to a nutritionist. The nutritionist has told them that it is very important to eat breakfast to get your metabolism up and running for the day. Any nutritionist or book will tell you this. My friend wonâ??t eat breakfast. My friend is not losing weight. Their job is on the line. Does my friend sound wise to you?

[Freedom in Truth]

I think that even if FIT were to pose her questions to God in as specific a manner as you, she would not be convinced of the truthfulness of what you say God has told you. Shouldn't this cause one to think (or at least consider) that maybe they have it wrong? But I guess when one believes one has it from God, such an exercise would be tantamount to blasphemy. Which is why I don't suspect that you will convince FIT of anything, nor her you.

I definitely think we should test what we believe. I have done this many times. I have considered Mormonism and what it teaches more than once, but every time I come up with even more reasons why I believe it is a smattering of Truth mixed with a large amount of lies. This is the most dangerous mix of all - some Truth with lies. People donâ??t often believe something that is ALL false. I find many if not all Mormons unwilling to really look at what they believe. I donâ??t even like it when traditional Christians are unwilling to really look at what they believe.

I would say that an unwillingness to ever consider that you might be wrong - an unwillingness to test what you believe - is pride and fear.

[Freedom in Truth]

QUOTE - TCM

I think that even if FIT were to pose her questions to God in as specific a manner as you, she would not be convinced of the truthfulness of what you say God has told you.

Paul - I think she would be if she was convinced, by God, that it was indeed God talking to her.

Why wouldn't she believe God, if she knew it was God, and she knew God, personally?

Paul, I have prayed to God about what you believe. He said you do not believe Truth in many, many areas. So - do you think I am hearing from God?

[Freedom in Truth]

Because, and this is just my opinion of course, people don't really hear from God - they hear from themselves.

I believe some people hear from themselves - some hear from God - and some hear from ungodly spirits. Do you believe in any kind of spirit world, TCM? What would it take for you to be convinced that someone heard from something spiritual (either a godly spirit or an ungodly spirit)?

[Paul Ray]

Paul, I have prayed to God about what you believe. He said you do not believe Truth in many, many areas. So - do you think I am hearing from God?

I'll respond to this comment quickly just to repeat what I have already advised that you do.

You say God has told you that I do not believe the truth in many, many areas.

I have advised that you start a thread... and will now expand on that to say that you could even read a thread that has already been started, and one that has in our archives here... which focuses on a specific issue, or one of those areas you do not agree with while believing that God does not agree with it.

In this thread, I have responded to the subject of this thread, which is, to summarize:

How can we know when we hear from God, and know they are not demons

I have said, pretty much, I just know it is God, and you have also given your answers.

I have nothing more to say about this subject.

... aside from the things I have already told you.

I now advise that you search our beliefs, while asking us to explain those issues.

We believe what we believe because we believe God is teaching us, and has taught us.

You're not going to get anywhere with me by trying to suggest that God doesn't or is not teaching me.

I know better than to just believe what you tell me... even when you say God is speaking to you.

I learn about God from God, without you, Freedom in Truth.

And you can also learn about God, from God, without me, too.

[Freedom in Truth]

If the Bible is your "control", so to speak, how did you determine the Bible's reliability? Have you just always believed the Bible is true, or have you ever approached the Bible critically (or at least from a skeptical viewpoint)?

Wow - no! I have NOT always believed the Bible was true! The belief I have today was a LONG journey. I started out open to just about anything. I believed in God (a creator, a Supreme Being) first, but I wasnâ??t sure I was believing in the God revealed in the Bible. I struggled with believing in Jesus - His existence, who He was, etc. - but then found faith in Him. When I first approached the Bible I was not sure if it was â??Godâ??s Wordâ? or just some writings of people. I wasnâ??t even sure anything was meant to be taken literally. I personally had a hard time putting the God of the OT with the God of the NT. Then there were all those things that the Jews â??hold in tensionâ? that seemed to be contradictions. I kept reading, praying, studying, attending classes, reading other scholars/theologians, etc. I questioned and questioned, and re-questioned. What put a lot of it together for me was tripping across a teacher who pointed me to the Hebraic perspective and information. (I didnâ??t really even look for this - never thought about it. Duh - it seems so obvious to read a Jewish book understanding Jewish thought, but churches at that time never thought about it, though it is a bit better now.) The Hebraic perspective helped me see that the Bible makes logical sense in its revelation of God, which is what I was struggling most with and what I cared most about. Then I started learning about textural criticism-type issues, etc. Bottom line - I do not believe people (whoever they are) could have ever written a book like the Bible.

[Freedom in Truth]

QUOTE(TrashcanMan79 @ May 1 2007, 01:48 PM)

But if FIT asks God and arrives at a different 'truth' than you, which do you think will be more likely? That FIT isn't really hearing from God, or that you aren't?

Paul - I usually ignore these types of questions, generally, because I generally don't know who others are hearing from... even when they agree with something that I believe.

You can say Jesus is the Christ, and truly believe it, but only say it because other people have told you.

Or you can say Jesus is the Christ, and truly believe it, because it is God who has told you, personally.

I just know that when I hear from God, I accept what God tells me, because I know it is God I am hearing from.

... regardless of what other people try to tell me.

And when I want to know what is true, I simply ask God to assure me, personally, because I don't want to just automatically believe what other people tell me.

I donâ??t think TCM was asking about hearing from other people but from God.

You donâ??t know who someone is hearing from even when they agree with something you believe (assuming that they say they hear from something inside of them and not another person)? You have no idea?

Can Truth come from an ungodly voice?

If two people claim to hear the same thing, that doesnâ??t prove they heard from God, does it?

[Freedom in Truth]

Did Julius Caesar Exist?

This article challenges the existence of Jesus (something I currently stop short of) to say nothing of his virgin birth, miracles, or resurrection. Do you feel that the evidence for Caesar's existence is comparable to the evidence of Christ's miracles? I think I would have to disagree.

Wouldnâ??t it be nice to find a source that didnâ??t have an agenda? These people sound really angry that anyone would believe Jesus exists . . . why? What do they care? Donâ??t you find it strange that they care so much?

Iâ??m going to guess that no one much cares whether Julius Caesar really lived or not, or whether he wrote and said and did the things attributed to him. (But, maybe Iâ??m wrong - the internet is a big world full of every possible idea!) If someone DID care about people not believing Caesar existed I am confident they would have all sorts of arguments!

What is it about Jesus that gets peoplesâ?? attention, even now so long after His life?

And why DONâ??T you challenge the existence of Jesus?

How would YOU define a miracle?

[Freedom in Truth]

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

I do ask God - He doesnâ??t agree with you.

Paul - ... about what, specifically?

About God the Father being once a man (not Jesus). About you someday being a god like the Father. About earning exaltation. About JS being a true prophet. About the BoM being the word of God (or however you want to word it). Those are some things I can think of off the top of my head.

Are you saying God has told you God has NOT answered me, personally?

God has told me you do not know Truth and you believe lies (generally speaking). I canâ??t say anymore specifically because I donâ??t know everything you believe. I do know that lies twist everything. No concept is an island. And what we believe affects how we live, how we see others, how we see ourselves . . . EVERYTHING! God told me He would not tell you or anyone else lies. The Bible confirms this. I suppose it is possible that God is trying to speak to you but you arenâ??t listening or understanding and you are clinging to what you want to be true. (Perhaps you arenâ??t able to listen or understand, etc..) I believe God tries to speak to everyone, but that doesnâ??t mean we listen or believe or open the door and welcome Him in. Sometimes there is no room for God within us. Sometimes we donâ??t have the courage or strength to change what we stand on.

... that at this point I haven't heard from God about anything?

Again, since I donâ??t know everything that you believe I canâ??t answer. I do believe that any truth you know is affected by the falsehoods you hold (my belief, of course). If you are hearing from God, then SOMETHING is wrong somewhere. I canâ??t see your heart so I canâ??t know what might be wrong.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

I expect you to support your beliefs in other ways than just telling me that you believe God told you it was truth.

Paul - Which beliefs are you referring to, specifically?

Well, there was your teaching of everyone becoming prophets. I brought you Bible passages that said the opposite. You based your interpretation on what God had told you, not on scripture. Then there was God the Father once being man and you becoming like God the Father someday. I also brought up salvation (original sin or all sin, works-salvation, etc.) which I donâ??t recall you ever discussing. There was also the scriptures saying we must test the spirits by examining the scriptures. You just kept saying you know what you know because God told you.

I donâ??t except you to address any of these subjects here. You have already asked that we use other threads. I am only answering your question.

On this one all I can say is that I know God has answered me, personally.

... regardless of the fact that you seem to be saying God doesn't.

It is a good quality that you stand on what you believe, Paul. That is good and admirable. I am only suggesting that it be balanced by checking yourself and testing the spirits by scripture. It would not be wise for one to stand adamantly on any foolish position - neither would it be wise for someone to constantly be questioning what they have already tested. Balance.

Yeah, me too. Who really doesn't like chocolate?

I know some people who donâ??t like chocolate . . . hard to imagine, isnâ??t it?

[Paul Ray]

About God the Father being once a man (not Jesus). About you someday being a god like the Father. About earning exaltation. About JS being a true prophet. About the BoM being the word of God (or however you want to word it). Those are some things I can think of off the top of my head.

I recommend that you start or read another thread to discuss these topics.

I think this thread is only about knowing if you can know that it is God who is answering you.

God has told me you do not know Truth and you believe lies (generally speaking).

Do you expect me to believe that because you say so... or because you say "God says so"?

Why should I believe anything you tell me... even when you say God is speaking to you???

I canâ??t say anymore specifically because I donâ??t know everything you believe.

Then just start with one issue, or the one you feel is most important.

I can't do anything to convince you God is speaking to me... even if I agree with what you say.

I could just accept what you say because it somehow makes sense, but that wouldn't mean it is true, or that I would know the truth from God who told me, personally.

I'm getting to know God, personally, regardless of what you tell me.

... and you can't say anything to convince me that I don't really know God.

I do know that lies twist everything. No concept is an island. And what we believe affects how we live, how we see others, how we see ourselves . . . EVERYTHING! God told me He would not tell you or anyone else lies. The Bible confirms this. I suppose it is possible that God is trying to speak to you but you arenâ??t listening or understanding and you are clinging to what you want to be true. (Perhaps you arenâ??t able to listen or understand, etc..) I believe God tries to speak to everyone, but that doesnâ??t mean we listen or believe or open the door and welcome Him in. Sometimes there is no room for God within us. Sometimes we donâ??t have the courage or strength to change what we stand on.

Read what you just said and apply it to yourself.

Maybe what you think I believe is not what I believe.

I think you are very close, but you have some misunderstandings.

Maybe I can help clarify my beliefs, and true LDS teachings, and dispel some false notions you have.

The concept of becoming like God was not foreign to the people who wrote parts of the Holy Bible.

... if you can correctly interpret what they were saying.

I believe my interpretation of the Holy Bible is in agreement with God's interpretation, because I believe it is God who gave me His understanding... and nothing you can ever say will ever shake my faith in God.

End of discussion.

[TrashcanMan79]

I find many if not all Mormons unwilling to really look at what they believe.

So, um, do you actually read the posts on this board? I am shocked at this statement.

I don't think many folks are still following this thread, what with its 27 pages of posts, but I would LOVE for you to start a brand new thread with this statement.

[Neighbor]

I find that we need to hear Jesus to know what we need to believe.

It could be an interesting poll/post to itemize all the things that churches think everyone else but them have wrong and examine the claims and see how many actually relate to what Jesus taught.

[TrashcanMan79]

It could be an interesting poll/post to itemize all the things that churches think everyone else but them have wrong and examine the claims and see how many actually relate to what Jesus taught.

I think it would be an interesting post if FIT itemized all the beliefs that 'many, if not all, Mormons' are 'unwilling to really look at.' If she starts a new thread with this list, every Mormon that opened it would be forced to actually look at those beliefs, and perhaps there will be an exodus of sorts of board members leaving Mormonism for FIT-flavored Christianity.

I think it's worth a shot. What say you, FIT?

[Neighbor]

I think it would be an interesting post if FIT itemized all the beliefs that 'many, if not all, Mormons' are 'unwilling to really look at.' If she starts a new thread with this list, every Mormon that opened it would be forced to actually look at those beliefs, and perhaps there will be an exodus of sorts of board members leaving Mormonism for FIT-flavored Christianity.

I think it's worth a shot. What say you, FIT?

So what do you think of the links at your signature?

[TrashcanMan79]

So what do you think of the links at your signature?

I think the link to Freedom in Truth's quote is just bizarre, given the myriad of beliefs that Mormons debate, defend, discuss, or otherwise 'look at' on this board.

I think the link to Terrorista's quote is amusing.

I think the link to the Bible group is interesting.

[Freedom in Truth]

I'm not sure what the difference between a 'Greek mind' and a 'Jewish mind' is, but it seems to me that if the Bible says we are saved by grace, not works, and then it also tells us that we must work out our own salvation, then one must harmonize these two ideas to arrive at the truth (if one believes the Bible does not contradict itself on this issue). So some might believe that it is grace and grace alone that saves us, and our works are the fruit of saving faith or something we do after we are saved to show our love for God (or whatever). But then others might harmonize these two ideas by suggesting that our faith coupled with our obedience to God's commandments will ulitmately result in our salvation (or something).

The case can be made biblically for each of these opposing schools of thought. Which idea is the product of the 'Jewish mind' and which the 'Greek'?

The Greeks separated beliefs from actions. The Hebrews did not separate the two. Generally speaking and under normal circumstances (I always like to allow for individual cases) an apple tree will bear apples. A follower of Christ will be Christ-like. So in Greek thought someone hears that we should love one another. He believes theoretically that this is true without necessarily showing the action of loving one another. The Hebrew would say â??You can say all you want you should love one another, but if you are not loving one another you donâ??t really believe it is true.â?

The Greek mind would see salvation as admitting that one needs to repent and to make Jesus their Lord and Savior. It would be a decision, a declaration. Then they would say that if one made this decision one must now have good works. Hebraic thought would say â??How can you separate the two - the declaration and the good works? They are inseparable. You cannot have one without the other.â? Really, what good is it to say you believe something and never act on it? How meaningful is that?

â??some might believe that it is . . . grace alone that saves us, and our works are the fruit of saving faith or something we do after we are saved to show our love for God . . .â??

â??others might harmonize these two ideas by suggesting that our faith coupled with our obedience to God's commandments will ultimately result in our salvation . . .â?

Your first statement sounds more Greek - your second sounds kind of more Hebraic and kind of Catholic. Practically-speaking, what is the difference in the ACTION of the two statements? Both believe that works and faith are a part of the picture - they just disagree with how it all works. The Hebraic-like statement - to be more Hebraic - would say that we have salvation now (as soon as we choose it) because salvation is walking with God. Salvation allows us to have relationship with God from now on - and it should grow and deepen as we go â??further up and further in.â? Salvation is NOT a ticket that gets you into heaven when you die, and you stick it in your drawer until you need it! Salvation is not an event after this life. (By the way, grace would be part of your second statement as well.)

Though the actions resulting from your two statements should be the same, what is at risk here is the thoughts and feelings of the persons holding the different views. The first statement could lead one to believe that works are optional. (Let me be clear - works do not save - but they should exist.) The first statement could lead one to believe that salvation has nothing to do with walking with God. So complacency and lack of relationship and growth with God could result. The second statement could lead one to believe that works save and their â??salvationâ? is on the line if they donâ??t do enough. (What is enough?) So one depends on himself and is either freaking out or a bit arrogant depending on how he thinks he is doing. Again, relationship is not necessarily needed. A Hebraic view communicates that one has salvation NOW so there is no need to worry. It also communicates that something is wrong if faith does not show itself by good works. And, relationship with God - walking with God - is communicated as the point of it all.

Hebraic view - if you have faith (by grace) youâ??ll have works. You will be walking with God. You have salvation (right-standing) now, and it will continue during this life and after you die. (And how exactly it all works is not very important to you - after all, who can understand Godâ??s ways?) So the Hebraic statement might read like this - â??our faith (which will be shown outwardly by good works) gives us right-standing (salvation) with God beginning now and continuing on forever.â?

[Freedom in Truth]

BTW, TCM, how do you know my personal information is literal and not symbolic? You don't really believe I live in the New Jerusalem, do you?

[Freedom in Truth]

There are other factors, I'm sure, but it is easy enough to see that people who believe the Bible are at odds with each other as to how it is to be properly interpreted. The thing don't interpret itself, that's for sure!

It is definitely a problem when people ignore certain verses and then base doctrines are the verses they are hearing. Then you have people with opposing doctrines based on different groups of verses. I guess they do this because they donâ??t understand the verses they ignore, but it gets us off. The Bible, as I have said, is not a buffet. And, a Greek-style eater would eat first the peas, then the potatoes, then the beef. A Hebraic-style eater would take a bit of peas, potatoes, and beef and eat it together!

Itâ??s good to read the Bible with the HS - very â??enlighteningâ??. Without the HS I think you need a knowledge of Hebraic literature to even begin.

[Freedom in Truth]

Hey! I resemble that remark!

Yes, you do!

I don't think my understanding of the Bible is especially deficient. I have studied it for years and I continue to study it, though not through the lens of faith. I have studied the origins of the Bible and have learned quite a bit about things Hebrew, and this has not somehow compelled me to all of a sudden believe it is the inspired word of God.

I donâ??t mean to sound rude, but I could not tell you have studied the Bible or that you know about things Hebrew. No - knowledge alone wonâ??t get you to Christ. Some things are a matter of the heart.

Understanding the Bible does not necessarily equal believing the Bible. (And, lamentably, believing the Bible does not necessarily equal understanding the Bible.)

Definitely true.

[Paul Ray]

Bottom line - I do not believe people (whoever they are) could have ever written a book like the Bible.

But people did, didn't they.

... and please notice that is NOT a question.

The Holy Bible is a collection of words from people who claim to be talking about God, and speaking for God, with some people claiming God inspired them to write what they wrote.

With an assurance from God, to you, personally, you can know God inspired them to write what they wrote.

Without an assurance from God, to you, personally, it isn't anything but a bunch of words from those people...

... and some other people who translated the writings they had from those people.

... like King James, for instance, who commissioned some people to translate the records they had.

... who only claim to be speaking for God, and about God, and whatever else they wrote about.

And the same goes for the Book of Mormon.

With an assurance from God, to you, personally, you can know God inspired people to write what they wrote.

... and that God also inspired Joseph Smith who translated those records.

Without an assurance from God, to you, personally, it isn't anything but a bunch of words from those people.

I have an assurance from God to assure me God inspired people to write what we have in the Holy Bible.

And I also have an assurance from God to assure me God inspired people to write what we have in the Book of Mormon.

You might want to start another thread to talk about the Book of Mormon, or one of the issues in it.

Just don't expect all of us to believe you when you share what you think about it.

Some of us know who to trust for all our answers.