How Can We Know When We Hear

[Freedom in Truth]

Thanks for hooking up the quotes FIT. I canâ??t speak for the others, but Iâ??m not sure that Clement totally believed in a Faith alone type thingy. Either that, or he had a hard time articulating it (which is certainly possible).

1 Clement 30:3 (Translated by J.B. Lightfoot) -- [emphasis mine]

Let us therefore cleave unto those to whom grace is given from God.

Let us clothe ourselves in concord, being lowly minded and temperate,

holding ourselves aloof from all back biting and evil speaking, being

justified by works and not by words.

Yes - my verse I quoted is from the same document just a few verses down from yours -

1Clem 32:4 And so we, having been called through His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or understanding or piety or works which we wrought in holiness of heart, but through faith, whereby the Almighty God justified all men that have been from the beginning; to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

To make sense of this one must understand Catholic doctrine, which is not so different from what I wrote to Consiglieri about the relationship between faith and works.

From Post #468 -

What one does shows what one believes - our thoughts and actions are interwoven. Who would believe that I LOVED cheesecake if I never chose to have it when I am ordering dessert? (assuming that I am not on a diet or allergic to cheese, etc.)

Good works DONâ??T save us, but they do generally show where our heart is. If we are walking with God there will usually be outward signs. Good works show our relationship and obedience, and they increase our strength and maturity - but they do not provide salvation. Do you see the difference?

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]

Good works DONâ??T save us, but they do generally show where our heart is. If we are walking with God there will usually be outward signs. Good works show our relationship and obedience, and they increase our strength and maturity - but they do not provide salvation. Do you see the difference?

Makes sense.

If you arenâ??t baptized, and don't perform other "works," there isnâ??t a real working faith in you. Thusly, you arenâ??t truly saved and only have a dead faith.

[TrashcanMan79]

If the doctrine of salvation by faith alone, or "solafidianism," is biblical, why do we have no accounts of Christians believing it until 1500 years after Jesus?

Please cite one Church Father or other early Christian before Luther who understood the New Testament in the way that you do.

Some quotes -

CLEMENT OF ROME ...

IGNATIUS ...

POLYCARP OF SMYRNA ...

IRENAEUS ...

ORIGEN ...

TERTULLIAN ...

AMBROSE ...

CYRIL OF JERUSALEM ...

CHRYSOSTOM ...

BASIL ...

I haven't read all of FIT's quotes, nor have I read everything at the links that follow, but I thought Consiglieri and FIT may be interested in the following:

DID ANY CHURCH FATHERS TEACH SOLA FIDE?: A Response to a Challenge

DID ANY CHURCH FATHERS TEACH SOLA FIDE? Response to a Claim

The Church Fathers and Sola Fide (Justification By Faith Alone)

Despite the similar titles of the first two links, at a glimpse they are different articles. There may be some overlap in the above links, and they may not address every quote FIT cited, but I thought it might be valuable to your discussion. Also interesting, to me at least, was the wikipedia entry on sola fide and scripture, with the various bible passages used to argue both sides of the argument.

Seems to me you can read the Church Fathers and the bible all day long and still come away with whatever view you started out with. FIT, add this one to my argument that the bible is not consistent or without contradiction, even when it comes to revelation.

[Paul Ray]

Seems to me you can read the Church Fathers and the bible all day long and still come away with whatever view you started out with. FIT, add this one to my argument that the bible is not consistent or without contradiction, even when it comes to revelation.

Without receiving God's assurance to help you/us correctly interpret something, you/we can individualy come up with a lot of different and contradictory interpretations, but if we receive God's assurance to help you/us correctly interpret something, you/we can know what and how God does interpret something.

... so the trick is to not rely upon our own understanding, but in everything seek for God's assurance.

[TrashcanMan79]

Without receiving God's assurance to help you/us correctly interpret something, you/we can individualy come up with a lot of different and contradictory interpretations, but if we receive God's assurance to help you/us correctly interpret something, you/we can know what and how God does interpret something.

... so the trick is to not rely upon our own understanding, but in everything seek for God's assurance.

I can appreciate that Paul Ray, but the different folks claiming God's assurance are not in agreement on the proper interpretation of His word. This very thread is a case in point. God ain't telling you and FIT the same things!

[Paul Ray]

I can appreciate that Paul Ray, but the different folks claiming God's assurance are not in agreement on the proper interpretation of His word. This very thread is a case in point. God ain't telling you and FIT the same things!

I think FIT hasn't received some of the ideas that I have received from God, which now helps me to understand some specific issues, and that without those ideas he doesn't have those ideas to work with, which would help him to have God's understanding.

To get into specifics, we would need to talk about the specific issues, so I can tell him some things God has told me which has helped me to understand those issues... and/or he could also ask God the same questions I asked God when I was trying to understand those issues.

FIT doesn't really need to learn from me about anything, since he can ask God just as well as I can, but it may help to give him some ideas about some questions that I asked God, instead of having to come up with them, himself.

To gain knowledge from God, I believe it helps to ask specific questions.

[TrashcanMan79]

Can it be DEFINITELY proven that the writers held by tradition DIDNâ??T write the various books?

I'm not entirely sure. It would make an interesting discussion. I'll see what I can find. While I might stop short of saying it's been 'definitely proven', I am tempted to say that in some cases, scholars of all stripes are in agreement that the traditional author, in all likelihood, did not write what has been attributed to him.

And BTW, you can't disprove a negative. (Can you prove that fairies DON'T exist?)

[TrashcanMan79]

I think FIT hasn't received some of the ideas that I have received from God, which now helps me to understand some specific issues, and that without those ideas he doesn't have those ideas to work with, which would help him to have God's understanding.

To get into specifics, we would need to talk about the specific issues, so I can tell him some things God has told me which has helped me to understand those issues... and/or he could also ask God the same questions I asked God when I was trying to understand those issues.

FIT doesn't really need to learn from me about anything, since he can ask God just as well as I can, but it may help to give him some ideas about some questions that I asked God, instead of having to come up with them, himself.

To gain knowledge from God, I believe it helps to ask specific questions.

For what it's worth, FIT is a female. (This board should allow the option of revealing your gender on your profile page!)

I think that even if FIT were to pose her questions to God in as specific a manner as you, she would not be convinced of the truthfulness of what you say God has told you. Shouldn't this cause one to think (or at least consider) that maybe they have it wrong? But I guess when one believes one has it from God, such an exercise would be tantamount to blasphemy. Which is why I don't suspect that you will convince FIT of anything, nor her you.

[Paul Ray]

For what it's worth, FIT is a female.

Uh. Oh. Okay. Thank you.

(This board should allow the option of revealing your gender on your profile page!)

I'm just thankful that somebody told me. Good grief.

... and btw, I'm just taking your word for this at the moment.

I think that even if FIT were to pose her questions to God in as specific a manner as you, she would not be convinced of the truthfulness of what you say God has told you.

I think she would be if she was convinced, by God, that it was indeed God talking to her.

Why wouldn't she believe God, if she knew it was God, and she knew God, personally?

[TrashcanMan79]

Why wouldn't she believe God, if she knew it was God, and she knew God, personally?

Because, and this is just my opinion of course, people don't really hear from God - they hear from themselves.

[Neighbor]

I'm not sure that I understand what you're saying.

How do you know what Christ said, or says, without hearing from God, personally?

What did you mean when you made this comment:

Again, how do you know what Christ said, or says, without hearing from God, personally?

Do you just believe what people wrote in the writings that are now printed in the Holy Bible?

Why do you believe those writings? How do you know they are true?

Who or what is it that inspires you to believe in the Holy Bible?

I did agree with a few comments you made, but I'm not sure that I understand your message.

I'd just like to know why you believe what you believe.

... and I'm not interested in debating this issue with you.

I can appreciate that. Why? Because I've been around the block a few times and realize that Jesus put the matter about people who followed Him to be that they should be about doing what He said more than saying they believe what He said or calling Him Lord and not doing what He said. Just as Jesus surely said He is to be our Teacher.

The 'proof is in the doing' is based on one of His teachings. We hear Him and believe His words and they change us. It is in the doing of what He said that changes us. That's about as simple as it gets and it fits well with all of His teachings and His prayer to the Father near the end of John as well as with what the apostles said in their books.

[Paul Ray]

Because, and this is just my opinion of course, people don't really hear from God - they hear from themselves.

Congratulations. You successfully avoided answering my question.

I asked:

Why wouldn't she believe God, if she knew it was God, and she knew God, personally?

... which would necessarily presuppose that she knew she wasn't hearing from only herself.

... she would know it was God.

[Paul Ray]

I can appreciate that. Why? Because I've been around the block a few times and realize that Jesus put the matter about people who followed Him to be that they should be about doing what He said more than saying they believe what He said or calling Him Lord and not doing what He said. Just as Jesus surely said He is to be our Teacher.

The 'proof is in the doing' is based on one of His teachings. We hear Him and believe His words and they change us. It is in the doing of what He said that changes us. That's about as simple as it gets and it fits well with all of His teachings and His prayer to the Father near the end of John as well as with what the apostles said in their books.

Okay. Let me ask my question another way.

How would you know it was Jesus who was asking you to do something, and not just someone who is saying what they think Jesus told them?

Do you know Jesus Christ lives, and lived in the past?

How do you know that, personally?

Do you just believe someone named Paul, and someone else named Peter, and some other people, who wrote what is in the Bible?

How do you know that the Bible is truly Holy?

I think you have to know God to begin with, before you can do what God tells you.

I have to first know I am following God, personally... not just doing what others say He told them.

How do you know it is Jesus you are following, Neighbor?

How do you know when Jesus is speaking through another person, and that person is a prophet of God?

And what do you think you can do to get to know Him?

[TrashcanMan79]

Congratulations. You successfully avoided answering my question.

I asked:

Why wouldn't she believe God, if she knew it was God, and she knew God, personally?

... which would necessarily presuppose that she knew she wasn't hearing from only herself.

... she would know it was God.

I don't know that congratulations are in order, but to give you a direct answer to your hypothetical:

If there is a God, and if FIT knows Him/Her/It and can tell the difference between hearing from herself and hearing from God, then I have every confidence that FIT will believe whatever God tells her.

[Paul Ray]

I don't know that congratulations are in order, but to give you a direct answer to your hypothetical:

If there is a God, and if FIT knows Him/Her/It and can tell the difference between hearing from herself and hearing from God, then I have every confidence that FIT will believe whatever God tells her.

... and that is why I recommend that she/he/it simply ask God.

[TrashcanMan79]

I also use spiritual experiences tested by the Bible.

If the Bible is your "control", so to speak, how did you determine the Bible's reliability? Have you just always believed the Bible is true, or have you ever approached the Bible critically (or at least from a skeptical viewpoint)?

[TrashcanMan79]

... and that is why I recommend that she/he/it simply ask God.

But if FIT asks God and arrives at a different 'truth' than you, which do you think will be more likely? That FIT isn't really hearing from God, or that you aren't?

[Paul Ray]

But if FIT asks God and arrives at a different 'truth' than you, which do you think will be more likely? That FIT isn't really hearing from God, or that you aren't?

I usually ignore these types of questions, generally, because I generally don't know who others are hearing from... even when they agree with something that I believe.

You can say Jesus is the Christ, and truly believe it, but only say it because other people have told you.

Or you can say Jesus is the Christ, and truly believe it, because it is God who has told you, personally.

I just know that when I hear from God, I accept what God tells me, because I know it is God I am hearing from.

... regardless of what other people try to tell me.

And when I want to know what is true, I simply ask God to assure me, personally, because I don't want to just automatically believe what other people tell me.

[TrashcanMan79]

But let me ask you this - how do you test that Julius Caesar lived?

Did Julius Caesar Exist?

This article challenges the existence of Jesus (something I currently stop short of) to say nothing of his virgin birth, miracles, or resurrection. Do you feel that the evidence for Caesar's existence is comparable to the evidence of Christ's miracles? I think I would have to disagree.

[Neighbor]

Okay. Let me ask my question another way.

How would you know it was Jesus who was asking you to do something, and not just someone who is saying what they think Jesus told them?

Do you know Jesus Christ lives, and lived in the past?

How do you know that, personally?

Do you just believe someone named Paul, and someone else named Peter, and some other people, who wrote what is in the Bible?

How do you know that the Bible is truly Holy?

I think you have to know God to begin with, before you can do what God tells you.

I have to first know I am following God, personally... not just doing what others say He told them.

How do you know it is Jesus you are following, Neighbor?

How do you know when Jesus is speaking through another person, and that person is a prophet of God?

And what do you think you can do to get to know Him?

I'm in the midst of a detailed study of the whatsoever Jesus taught. Rather than write an 'anti' book, because I think all the 'anti' books waste their effort of stuff that should be settled by all of us coming to terms with the doctrines and faith of Jesus Christ - not Paul, Peter, Josephus, Joseph or whoever. Jesus clearly said to hear HIM. Those eyewitnesses who heard His preaching/teaching recorded enough that each of us can spend a life time being transformed by belief in and obedience to Jesus Christ...

The trinity doctrine doesn't save anyone, and per the teachings of Jesus what we do with Him and His words to us by the transmission of His chosen eyewitnesses is what matters most.

Any doctrine that is not squarely rooted in His teachings is questionable.

What He taught was clear enough to those whom God draws to Him. Those of the darkness will never understand the mind of Christ or the true gospel of God in Christ reconsiling the world to Himself. The only alone doctrine I'd hazard to support is only Jesus' works, only Jesus' sacrifice, only Jesus is our all in all about anything that is truely good.

[Freedom in Truth]

First of all, I don't want anyone to just believe what I say about God... even though I know God has taught me, personally.

If you want to get to know God, then you should just get to know God... and I recommend that you get to know God, personally.

If you want to get to know me, then you should just get to know me... and I recommend that you get to know me, personally.

I have been learning about you as I have heard what you've told me.

And second of all, yes, I have more.

I believe I know God, Paul, just as you believe you know God. Thatâ??s why we need to move our conversation to other support than â??God told me with a voice I hear inside myselfâ?.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

The â??voiceâ? that I â??hearâ? tells me that you are a very sweet guy but you have truth mixed with untruth.

Paul - Interesting. I am hearing pretty much the same thing about you.

If you are interested we can begin to discuss things that you believe are out of harmony with your beliefs, but I recommend that you start another thread to do that and just focus on one issue at a time.

I believe we have pretty much already covered this topic.

Hmmm . . . I wouldnâ??t use the adjective â??sweetâ? to describe myself! I will go to another thread after I have answered all the posts here (I like to respect other posters by answering them). But maybe if it slows here I can get to other threads.

After I tell you what God has told me, and share my understanding of the issue with you, what else do you expect me to do?

Do you expect me to somehow convince you that what I am saying is true?

Why would you believe me?

Just ask God.

I do ask God - He doesnâ??t agree with you. I expect you to support your beliefs in other ways than just telling me that you believe God told you it was truth.

It should either match or be in harmony, yes, but what God tells me doesn't have to be the same exact thing that God has told or will tell you. And yes, there should also be no contractiction, if we are both talking and thinking of the same thing.

No, I donâ??t expect God to tell you to help Mr. Smith next door. But yes, principles should agree - God shouldnâ??t ever tell you to NEVER help your neighbors.

Pick any issue you want, and run with it... but in a different thread, please.

When I am able to I will. Or I will find a thread that is discussing something I have asked you that wasnâ??t answered.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Do you have any gum?

Paul - No, not now. Do you want some?

I sometimes get in the mood for it, personally.

Which reminds me, I have some candy to eat. I got a Heath bar, after talking to MorningStar.

Actually I donâ??t chew gum much - I was joking! I do like chocolate though.

[Paul Ray]

I believe I know God, Paul, just as you believe you know God. Thatâ??s why we need to move our conversation to other support than â??God told me with a voice I hear inside myselfâ?.

That's pretty much all I have to offer, on this subject.

I trust God and God's assurance concerning anything God tells me, or assures me of, personally.

Maybe it would be better for us to move onto another subject?

Hmmm . . . I wouldnâ??t use the adjective â??sweetâ? to describe myself! I will go to another thread after I have answered all the posts here (I like to respect other posters by answering them). But maybe if it slows here I can get to other threads.

Okay, last post from me here, then. I didn't know I was delaying your progress onto other threads.

I do ask God - He doesnâ??t agree with you.

... about what, specifically?

Are you saying God has told you God has NOT answered me, personally?

... that at this point I haven't heard from God about anything?

That's pretty much what we have been talking about, isn't it?

I know that God has, regardless of what you tell me.

I expect you to support your beliefs in other ways than just telling me that you believe God told you it was truth.

Which beliefs are you referring to, specifically?

I've already advised that you begin to question specific issues.

On this one all I can say is that I know God has answered me, personally.

... regardless of the fact that you seem to be saying God doesn't.

No, I donâ??t expect God to tell you to help Mr. Smith next door. But yes, principles should agree - God shouldnâ??t ever tell you to NEVER help your neighbors.

Don't worry. God doesn't.

When I am able to I will. Or I will find a thread that is discussing something I have asked you that wasnâ??t answered.

Okay.

Actually I donâ??t chew gum much - I was joking! I do like chocolate though.

Yeah, me too. Who really doesn't like chocolate?

[Freedom in Truth]

I haven't read all of FIT's quotes, nor have I read everything at the links that follow, but I thought Consiglieri and FIT may be interested in the following:

DID ANY CHURCH FATHERS TEACH SOLA FIDE?: A Response to a Challenge

DID ANY CHURCH FATHERS TEACH SOLA FIDE? Response to a Claim

The Church Fathers and Sola Fide (Justification By Faith Alone)

Despite the similar titles of the first two links, at a glimpse they are different articles. There may be some overlap in the above links, and they may not address every quote FIT cited, but I thought it might be valuable to your discussion. Also interesting, to me at least, was the wikipedia entry on sola fide and scripture, with the various bible passages used to argue both sides of the argument.

Seems to me you can read the Church Fathers and the bible all day long and still come away with whatever view you started out with. FIT, add this one to my argument that the bible is not consistent or without contradiction, even when it comes to revelation.

TCM, I think you are missing some information here. No one will argue that the Bible contains verses that say we are saved by faith through grace and not by works. There are also verses that suggest that we must work out our salvation. Then we have James 2:22 - â??You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.â? To the Greek mind this is a contradiction, but not to the Jewish mind. Because these verses seem to contradict to Greek thinkers they struggled with ways to understand them.

I am not Catholic and never have been - but this is my best understanding of their doctrine from research and from talking to them and to those who attended Catholic schools. The Catholics definitely believe that salvation is by faith through grace only. That is why the early church fathers have quotes that support this. However, the Catholics struggled with sanctification - being made perfect so one can stand in Godâ??s presence (sin cannot be in Godâ??s presence). They believed that one was not changed and made perfect when one chose to follow Christ, and obviously people arenâ??t suddenly perfect after accepting Christ - we can all observe this. Therefore, the person must go through a process of sanctification. God gives them the grace to be made perfect but they must cooperate with that grace and do good works, obey commands, etc. This is what a Catholic would mean by â??working out salvationâ?. Salvation is by faith through grace ONLY - but the process of sanctification involves good works.

If someone hadnâ??t finished becoming sanctified in this life they continued the process in purgatory. Saints, of course, didnâ??t need to go to purgatory because they finished becoming sanctified in this life.

Luther actually had no problem with the Catholic idea of salvation by faith through grace - he struggled with sanctification. His question was â??How can I know when I have done enough to be sanctified?â? Then, when the church sold indulgences (grace the saints didnâ??t use) and promised they would shorten someoneâ??s time in purgatory or allow the person to skip purgatory altogether, Luther didnâ??t understand how the church could possibly know that buying an indulgence would be enough to allow someone to skip purgatory. Therefore, he threw out the Catholic view of sanctification and declared that everything was purely by grace and that the blood of Christ cloaked our sins so we could stand before God without being sinless. However, Luther did believe that good works would automatically flow from faith.

The issue of salvation by faith alone was never really in question. Instead, the issue was sanctification. And, in my opinion, all this muddle is due to our insistence of understanding a Jewish book through Greek thought. We are saved by faith and not works - the Bible is quite clear on this. If we have faith we WILL have good works - the Bible is clear on this as well. Greeks seem to separate words (declarations) and actions - Hebrew thought did not. To the Hebrew, you can say all you want that you love God, but if you donâ??t obey Him you are showing that your tongue is lying. The Greeks seem to allow for believing one thing and doing another.

Greek-thinkers try to understand exactly how it all works - why do some repent and other donâ??t? How and when are we perfected? The Jews believe faith will be shown by good works - how could you possibly separate faith from works? They didnâ??t need to produce doctrine to attempt to explain everything - they did not believe God and His ways can be thoroughly understood. And, for all the Gentile attempts to understand God and His ways, I would say the Jews are right!

TCM, if you continue to look at the Bible through Greek eyes and not approach it attempting to understand Hebraic thought and literature, it will truly remain â??all Greekâ? to you.

[Freedom in Truth]

Without receiving God's assurance to help you/us correctly interpret something, you/we can individualy come up with a lot of different and contradictory interpretations, but if we receive God's assurance to help you/us correctly interpret something, you/we can know what and how God does interpret something.

... so the trick is to not rely upon our own understanding, but in everything seek for God's assurance.

I sort of agree with Paul. The HS can confirm through the Bible, through others, and through you. But God chose to be revealed through Hebrew words and eyes - donâ??t open the Bible without remembering this, unless you want a muddle.

[Freedom in Truth]

I can appreciate that Paul Ray, but the different folks claiming God's assurance are not in agreement on the proper interpretation of His word. This very thread is a case in point. God ain't telling you and FIT the same things!

Are you sure the differences in peopleâ??s beliefs are based on different interpretations of scripture? You know that Mormon doctrine is based on extra-biblical scriptures and on a Bible believed to have been changed. It might be different if JS was reading and studying the Bible and then claimed a different interpretation, but the Bible does not seem to have been his starting point. The Catholics base their doctrine on scripture AND Tradition, so their doctrine is not solely based on the Bible. Protestants do base their doctrine on the Bible, but they read with Greek thought. What understanding would we have of the Bible if we studied from a Hebraic perspective, since it is a Jewish book?

God isnâ??t telling Paul and me the same basic things, and that is why I think it is iffy that we are both hearing the same person. But I want to make it clear that people hearing from God wonâ??t necessarily hear exactly the same things - though the biggies should be consistent. God may need to emphasize mercy with me because I am naturally just, but He may need to emphasize justice with someone who tends to be too merciful. And God may be dealing with me on something that He hasnâ??t gotten to yet with someone else, but He has covered some issue with them that He hasnâ??t covered with me yet. A relationship is a unique, living, growing thing with individuals. A relationship is not doctrines and rules.