How Can We Know When We Hear

[Freedom in Truth]

I pretty much agree with what Son just said, but I'd like to add a little bit to it.

The "Word" is Jesus Christ, Himself, according to John.

We could also say the word of God is everything God will tell us, through Jesus Christ.

We could also say the word of God is the Holy Bible, to an extent, but the Bible isn't EVERY word that God has given or can still give us.

I think it is wrong to say the Holy Bible is EVERY word that God has given, or can still give us.

And I try to live by every word that God gives to me.

I mostly agree. As I said in my last post, scripture is sufficient and new revelation canâ??t contradict it, but God does continue to speak to all that are His. He even calls to all people. If you have the principle that you are to love your neighbor you donâ??t really need to know that God told me today to take my neighbor to dinner.

I think this is an issue especially with Mormons because they use this to support JSâ??s new revelation. I never said God does not continue to speak - that is not an issue between us. The issue is that you seem to believe that new revelation can change the principles, the truths, of previous revelation. I believe Godâ??s principles, His truths, do not change.

[Bee Eff]

I mostly agree. As I said in my last post, scripture is sufficient and new revelation canâ??t contradict it, but God does continue to speak to all that are His. He even calls to all people. If you have the principle that you are to love your neighbor you donâ??t really need to know that God told me today to take my neighbor to dinner.

I think this is an issue especially with Mormons because they use this to support JSâ??s new revelation. I never said God does not continue to speak - that is not an issue between us. The issue is that you seem to believe that new revelation can change the principles, the truths, of previous revelation. I believe Godâ??s principles, His truths, do not change.

"The issue is that you seem to believe that new revelation can change the principles, the truths, of previous revelation. I believe Godâ??s principles, His truths, do not change."

Do you see the hypocrisy in the statement? Or perhaps the irony? Christ was believed to be changing the principles, the truths, of previous revelation by the religious leaders of his time as well, when in reality He clarified it, He rid the Jews of the chains of the traditions decreed by their scholars and self-proclaimed experts. Mormon revelation does not change the principles, the truths, of previous revelation, it clarifies it, it rids us of the chains of the traditions decreed by scholars and self-proclaimed experts. It is not "Mormon revelation", it is the word of God. Like the Jews, you cling to the traditions of men and deny the word of God. The pharisees and such were a symbol of our day, giving us an example of the error that would lead away from the Lord. So-called Christians are the modern pharisee, denying Christ's message as He sends it through the Church to all men in favor of their traditional erroneous beliefs.

[Paul Ray]

I mostly agree. As I said in my last post, scripture is sufficient and new revelation canâ??t contradict it, but God does continue to speak to all that are His. He even calls to all people. If you have the principle that you are to love your neighbor you donâ??t really need to know that God told me today to take my neighbor to dinner.

I think this is an issue especially with Mormons because they use this to support JSâ??s new revelation. I never said God does not continue to speak - that is not an issue between us. The issue is that you seem to believe that new revelation can change the principles, the truths, of previous revelation. I believe Godâ??s principles, His truths, do not change.

Freedom in Truth,

I'm responding to this post as well as your other posts above, since my last one. I've read all that you're written in this thread.

At this point I am proposing a change in tactics. I really don't want to go on and on and on with you, as we have been. And this is not meant as personal insult against you, personally.

You seem to believe, based on what you have said, that Joseph Smith's teachings, and "Mormon" teachings, contradict the teachings of anyone and/or everyone whose writings are in the Holy Bible.

I believe they do not. I believe they all are in harmony. I believe we just need to find "THE" true and correct interpretation when trying to understand what someone was saying... and I believe God can give it to us, God can help us see what is true in what anyone and/or everyone is saying.

It then won't be: my interpretation vs your interpretation.

It will be: Is what I am understanding what God wants me to understand?

Anyway, here is my proposal.

I think you should now start a new thread about a specific issue to share what you think with other people... asking other people to share what they think with you... and then listen as other people share what they think with you... while always... ALWAYS... asking God what God wants you to believe.

I think the new thread should be about one of the specific issues you believe "Mormons" believe in contradition to a "Bible" teaching... just one specific issue at a time. You can later start another thread about another issue, but please just work on collecting ideas about one specific issue at a time.

I believe we both agree that "Mormon" teachings shouldn't contradict any "Bible" teaching... we just have to know how to correctly interpret the Holy Bible.

That is what I did, when I investigated what the "Mormon" church was teaching, and I believe it is a good way to know the truth.

I will no longer be responding to your posts in this thread.

... and btw, I have enjoying sensing your spirit. I love you.

[TrashcanMan79]

I wrote this before - it is one sign that the Bible is not merely a human book -

â??The Bible was written over about a fifteen-hundred-year span by more than 40 different authors. These authors were from many different walks of life, including the professions of king, military leader, herdsman, cupbearer to a pagan king, prime minister, physician, fisherman, tax collector, and rabbi. It was written in different times (war, peace, etc.), in different places (the wilderness, prison, a palace, etc.), on different continents, different languages, and in different moods. Yet, with all these differences, REVELATION is consistent. That is something mere humans could never pull off by themselves. That is a sign.â?

This statement pre-supposes that authorship of the various books of the bible has been accurately attributed to the authors held by tradition (and tradition alone, in many cases).

As far as revelation being consistent, that's open for debate. Consider THE BIBLE: Unique in Its Continuity, and, of course, see the many lists of inconsistencies at the link in my signature.

[Freedom in Truth]

Only according to ones understanding, which comes from heeding and doing.

I donâ??t think I am understanding your thought here - could you clarify?

[Freedom in Truth]

Absolutely, our hearts are above ALL deceitful....but God has given us ALL we need as believers to discern the truth from the lies.

This ties into my fascination with the "mormon challenge" to ask God if the BOM be true. So many people genuinely ask Him and get a yes. But do they know to test the spirit? It's incredible to me that so many do not bother with this hugely important biblical step.

I know what you mean - it is concerning. Do these people KNOW Godâ??s voice? Have they ever heard it? How do they decide who they have heard - God, a demon, or themselves?

Hosea 4:6a my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge

I think these people are sincerely looking for God and yearning for spiritual experiences. But they base everything on their own â??discernmentâ? and decide they CANNOT be wrong in this area. Discernment must be trained and matured.

I wonder how many of these people asked God if the Bible is true.

Acts 17:10-11 As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Look at the Biblical model - the Berean Jews of â??noble characterâ? didnâ??t take Paulâ??s word for it and they didnâ??t pray and ask whoever if what Paul said was true. They examined the Scriptures every day - they took time to study the scriptures. They tested Paulâ??s message with the scriptures.

But, sadly, Mormons canâ??t do this, for their leader has rendered the scriptures useless. They have no solid ground.

[Freedom in Truth]

Please explain why you just quoted from the Athanasian Creed?

Does what those men said have any value to you, personally?

I wrote - I believe in the Trinity. But, Mormons donâ??t believe Jesus is God (Heavenly Father).

You responded - Do you? Do you believe Jesus is the same person as our Father in heaven?

I then quoted the creed to answer your questions. â?? . . . one God in three persons and three persons in one God, without mixing the persons or dividing the divine being.â? God is three distinct persons but yet God cannot be divided. He is one being, one substance-essence. God is infinite - He has no limits or boundaries in time or space or extent or magnitude.

The Mormon Godhead is three distinct beings. They are united in purpose and doctrine, but they are not united in substance-essence. They are not one being but three beings.

"I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370). (emphasis mine)

I think of the Mormon Godhead as like a bank account I could have for my childrenâ??s college educations. The whole account could have $300,000 - its purpose would be to pay for the college education of my three hypothetical children. Sally has $100,000 â??in her nameâ?, Jack has $100,000 and Ben has the last $100,000. Though their monies are combined in one account their monies are distinct and earmarked for them. Sallyâ??s monies are not Jackâ??s monies or Benâ??s monies. The monies are distinct and finite though they are in one account and have one general purpose.

On the other hand, the traditional Christian God is not like a bank account because this God is infinite and not finite. This God cannot be divided. This God is more like the love I have for Sally, Jack, and Ben. I have a different and distinct love for each of them, yet I cannot separate my love. My love is infinite - it is never lessened or used up. My love has no limits or boundaries in time or space or extent or magnitude. And if I have another child I will love that child as well without lessening or using my love for my other three children.

God cannot be thought of in finite and material ways - He is infinite and spirit and unable to be fully fathomed by man. God IS the ultimate being in the universe! He is so glorious and good and wise and powerful (and on and on) that we canâ??t grasp much of His essence, let alone understand it! Again, how could an ant even SEE a whole man? The ant couldnâ??t unless the man were very far from him, then because the man is so far the ant couldnâ??t see much detail! And the ant could NEVER understand the man, though an ant could perhaps better understand a super-ant. But God (Father, Son, HS) is not some sort of exalted-human - He cannot be reduced to so little a thing. If one understands the BIGNESS and GREATNESS of God they will understand that no man could EVER be a god like Him. We need to use some of our holy imagination when thinking of God to even touch upon His OTHERNESS, His HOLINESS, His MAJESTY. The heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain Him!

(Have you ever read C.S. Lewisâ?? The Great Divorce? No, it has nothing to do with marriage and divorce. Lewis helps wake up our godly imaginations.)

Do I believe Jesus is the same person as our Father in heaven, or do I believe Jesus is not the same person as our Father in heaven? The answer is yes.

Does what those men said have any value to me personally? Yes! They were men who were trying to follow God just like us. They spent time with God, studied, prayed, etc. We can all learn from each other, being careful to evaluate everything with Godâ??s Word.

[consiglieri]

It looks like this thread is setting some kind of record for length! Kudos to all.

I would like to weigh in on the original question by saying that I think one can know that a particular doctrine is of "demons" if it leads away from Christ and away from following Christ's example.

As such, I would think the doctrine that belief alone is necessary for salvation, regardless of what one does, would be a prime candidate for a "doctrine of ."

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Freedom in Truth]

Freedom in Truth - Is it correct that anytime someone â??sawâ? God in the OT they were seeing Jesus?

Paul- After the fall, yes. Before the fall Adam and Eve talked with our Father, personally.

Mormons have presented to me many verses to prove that the Father has a corporeal body. One verse is Ex. 33:11. (This verse is also listed in the LDS Topical Guide under God, Body of - Corporeal Nature.)

LDS Bible Dictionary - God - The personage known as Jehovah in Old Testament times, and who is usually identified in the Old Testament as LORD (in capital letters), is the Son, known as Jesus Christ, and who is also a God.

So in Exodus 33:11 it is Jesus who is seen by Moses (according to Mormon interpretation). This verse has nothing to do with the Father having a corporeal body, does it?

We believe there is only one God, and we know of 3 persons who are all God.

Our Father is God, Jesus Christ is also God, and the Holy Spirit is also God... the one God.

I usually try to explain this by using the analogy of Man.

I am Man, you are Man, each one of us is Man... the one Man.

If there is another being in the universe who is exactly like us, that being is the same being as Man.

LDS Bible Dictionary - God - "The supreme Governor of the universe and the Father of mankind. We learn from the revelations that have been given that there are three separate persons in the Godhead: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."

This definition never says Mormons believe in one God. The above defines God as the Father, then it calls the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost the Godhead, not God. In paragraph two of the same definition it says â??Jesus Christ, and who is also a Godâ?. It did not say â??Jesus Christ, who is also Godâ?. It then says â??The Holy Ghost is also a Godâ?. Again, it didnâ??t say â??The Holy Ghost is also Godâ?. This definition supports three Gods collectively called the Godhead. This definition is in agreement with JSâ??s statements -

"I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370). (emphasis mine) (There are quotes from other Mormon prophets as well.)

â??Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God anyhowâ??three in one, and one in three!â? (TPJS, p. 372)

The Book of Abraham uses the word â??Godsâ? continually in chapters 4 and 5. Didnâ??t Jesus, under the Fatherâ??s direction, create? Why isnâ??t the word â??Godâ? used here?

Now, are you not in agreement with Mormon theology here, or has Mormon theology changed?

No, we are not one Man. We are many men. We are all human beings, but we are distinct men, able to be separated and certainly not united in purpose and doctrine! My traditional Christian view of God is that He is three persons yet NOT divisible.

I suppose that you believe that someday you and all those who achieve exaltation will be God too? Then God will be more than three persons?

It seems you either donâ??t quite understand the Trinity or you donâ??t totally accept Mormon doctrine. Perhaps you see the truth that there is one God and you are trying to make that work with Mormonism. Or, as I have suggested, maybe Mormonism has received â??new revelationâ? and is moving away from a plurality of gods to the truth of One God. So maybe what I am seeing is kind of a stage half-way between as the doctrine is progressing.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

New revelation shouldnâ??t conflict with already-known revelation.

Paul - And I do not believe that it does... we just need God to help us intrepret His revelations.

Mormon â??salvationâ? conflicts with traditional Christian â??salvationâ?. I have brought this up before but you have never commented. Would you explain to me how these two salvation doctrines donâ??t conflict?

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Where is it written that the Father told Jesus to call himself God to the OT prophets? What is your basis for this idea?

Paul - Where is it written that the OT prophets were told who to call God?

Where is it written that Jesus and our Father are the same person?

Where is it written that Jesus had glory with our Father before Jesus was born on this Earth?

Search the scriptures, and ask God for His assurances, and I'm sure you'll find all of His answers.

Paul, why donâ??t you answer my question above? Do you have an answer?

Yes, I have searched the scriptures . . . have you?

[consiglieri]

Paul, why donâ??t you answer my question above? Do you have an answer?

Paul, shmaul. Why don't you answer my question, FIT? Do you have an answer?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Freedom in Truth]

QUOTE - Neighbor

The best version of Christianity is the one which knows Jesus best.

True as far as it goes. But does it go far enough? We have already had the scripture quoted that even Satan and his demons believe in Christ and assuredly, they also know Him better than we. They have no veil. So is knowing Christ the best, the best version of Christianity? Is it enough?

Demons recognize Jesus. They seem to understand His Power. They have knowledge of Him. But they do not walk with Him nor do they have a relationship with Him. They also donâ??t obey Him. And, they have no love. They recognize Jesus and know about Him, but I am not sure they KNOW Him.

Is walking with Jesus - being in relationship with Jesus - KNOWING Jesus enough? Why would it not be?

[consiglieri]

So you don't have an answer to my question, do you, FIT?

Come on. You can admit it.

Confession is good for the soul.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[structurecop]

But they do not walk with Him nor do they have a relationship with Him.

Really? What about in Job? Or 1 Kings 22:22?

They also donâ??t obey Him.

They don't? They sure do seem to take heed when you invoke his name in an exorcision.

[consiglieri]

Really? What about in Job? Or 1 Kings 22:22?

They don't? They sure do seem to take heed when you invoke his name in an exorcision.

Nice work, my fellow member of the secret society of cavernous evil!

(All Hail Captain Poopie-Pants!)

Perhaps, as with me, FIT will not see FIT to reply to your most excellently made point.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Freedom in Truth]

Freedom in Truth - What do you stand on other than spiritual experiences?

Paul - Nothing. Everything I stand on comes by a spiritual experience to me.

I cannot accept your stand on spiritual experience alone for knowing Truth. And, the scriptures donâ??t ask me to stand on spiritual experience alone. Yes, we have spiritual experiences, and they are wonderful and valuable - but they are to be tested by examining the scriptures. I am sorry you donâ??t see this.

Freedom in Truth - So to answer your question - I was taught about Jesus and the Father from a young age. I was taught basic Truth from the beginning. But it is different for you - you were at first taught that God was never a man like us (as a member of the Church of Christ).

Paul - No, I wasnâ??t. I wasnâ??t taught anything about that issue while I was a member of the Church of Christ.

It never came up, so I never thought about it until it was brought up by someone who was a â??Mormonâ?.

I then asked God about it, and then God told me about what I then learned about it.

If your church was like my church then you were taught that God was never a man like us. No, it might not have been worded in that exact fashion, but it was taught all the same. I learned that God was spirit and did not have a body. I learned Bible verses that said God is not a man -

Numbers 23:19a God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.

Hosea 11:9b For I am God, and not manâ?? the Holy One among you.

I learned that NOTHING is like God. Jesus, who is God, humbled Himself and took on human likeness and the nature of a servant.

Philippians 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

We are the servants of an infinite, Holy God. We are nothing compared to Him, yet He loves us -

Psalm 8:4 what is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him?

That is part of the mystery - this INCREDIBLE, AWESOME God cares about little ME.

This is what I learned - didnâ??t you learn this too?

Freedom in Truth - You were taught that there was ONE God - only ONE God.

Paul - Only one God, but 3 different persons who are all Godâ?¦ which is the same thing I believe now.

I havenâ??t changed my beliefs about this issue, at all.

Iâ??ve covered this - it seems you are not quite in line with Mormonism here.

Freedom in Truth - Knowing who the Father is, who Jesus is, who the HS is, and who YOU are is VERY important. You canâ??t know the Father, Jesus, or the HS very well if you donâ??t understand who YOU are in comparison.

Paul - And I do. I am a child of God. Who do you think you are?

Do you not know you are also a child of God... our Father in heaven?

I am a child of God because I have been adopted through His glorious GRACE -

Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and willâ?? to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

Freedom in Truth - I want to know why, when Jesus was teaching you and speaking to you He didnâ??t teach you Mormon truth. You donâ??t know anything until you are taught, right? So why wasnâ??t Jesus teaching you truth? Was He instead teaching you traditional Christian concepts - concepts that clash with Mormon doctrine?

Paul - God usually only gives me His assurance concerning what I ask Him, and I never had asked Him about some â??Mormonâ? points of doctrine. I had never heard some of the thoughts that â??Mormonsâ? had until I met a â??Mormonâ?. And then when I did I asked God to assure me of what is the truth.

So God doesnâ??t teach you anything directly - He waits until you bring Him a question and then He tells you if it is true or not? In the Bible God didnâ??t wait for people to ask Him questions - He taught them.

I am also assuming that you learned before becoming a Mormon that you have salvation by grace, not works. Didnâ??t you ask God if that was true? If you did, then why did you need to ask God if it wasnâ??t true after you heard Mormon teaching? God had already told you what was true.

(By the way, I donâ??t want you to think that I have not spoken to God about Mormonism.)

b]Freedom in Truth - Godâ??s Word says our heart CAN deceive us. We must test the spirits - how do YOU do this?

Paul - Iâ??ve already asked God to give me a new heart, God did, and with it, I trust God completely.

How do you do it? Do you simply trust some books and your personal interpretation of those books?

If God is all-powerful it IS possible that He inspired writings and then protected His revelation, correct? Should I not trust writings inspired by God? Do you not trust the BoM?

Our posts have probably crossed - I have already explained to you how I know Truth.

[Freedom in Truth]

"The issue is that you seem to believe that new revelation can change the principles, the truths, of previous revelation. I believe Godâ??s principles, His truths, do not change."

Do you see the hypocrisy in the statement? Or perhaps the irony? Christ was believed to be changing the principles, the truths, of previous revelation by the religious leaders of his time as well, when in reality He clarified it, He rid the Jews of the chains of the traditions decreed by their scholars and self-proclaimed experts. Mormon revelation does not change the principles, the truths, of previous revelation, it clarifies it, it rids us of the chains of the traditions decreed by scholars and self-proclaimed experts. It is not "Mormon revelation", it is the word of God. Like the Jews, you cling to the traditions of men and deny the word of God. The pharisees and such were a symbol of our day, giving us an example of the error that would lead away from the Lord. So-called Christians are the modern pharisee, denying Christ's message as He sends it through the Church to all men in favor of their traditional erroneous beliefs.

The religious leaders of Jesusâ?? time had scripture (the OT) and their Oral Law. Jesus did not change scripture, but He did interpret it correctly. He did not claim that scripture had been altered in any way and he did not rewrite it in any way. He interpreted correctly the scriptures as they were.

Contrast this with JSâ??s need to alter scripture in order to support his â??restored and new revelationâ?. Or, can you support every Mormon teaching using the OT as is, without any alterations of any kind? I do not think you can, and that is why Mormons must claim that the scriptures have been altered.

A contradiction is not a clarification.

[Freedom in Truth]

Freedom in Truth,

I'm responding to this post as well as your other posts above, since my last one. I've read all that you're written in this thread.

At this point I am proposing a change in tactics. I really don't want to go on and on and on with you, as we have been. And this is not meant as personal insult against you, personally.

You seem to believe, based on what you have said, that Joseph Smith's teachings, and "Mormon" teachings, contradict the teachings of anyone and/or everyone whose writings are in the Holy Bible.

I believe they do not. I believe they all are in harmony. I believe we just need to find "THE" true and correct interpretation when trying to understand what someone was saying... and I believe God can give it to us, God can help us see what is true in what anyone and/or everyone is saying.

It then won't be: my interpretation vs your interpretation.

It will be: Is what I am understanding what God wants me to understand?

Anyway, here is my proposal.

I think you should now start a new thread about a specific issue to share what you think with other people... asking other people to share what they think with you... and then listen as other people share what they think with you... while always... ALWAYS... asking God what God wants you to believe.

I think the new thread should be about one of the specific issues you believe "Mormons" believe in contradition to a "Bible" teaching... just one specific issue at a time. You can later start another thread about another issue, but please just work on collecting ideas about one specific issue at a time.

I believe we both agree that "Mormon" teachings shouldn't contradict any "Bible" teaching... we just have to know how to correctly interpret the Holy Bible.

That is what I did, when I investigated what the "Mormon" church was teaching, and I believe it is a good way to know the truth.

I will no longer be responding to your posts in this thread.

... and btw, I have enjoying sensing your spirit. I love you.

It IS difficult to continue dialogue when we both believe that the other is not hearing from God. It is also difficult to know who is hearing from God and who is not if only spiritual experiences are used as a basis. I have tried to look at issues using brain-power (logic) instead of just spiritual experiences, but you do not want to do this. I am, of course, not going to just take your word, and that is all you have to offer me. Your â??truthâ? does not line up with any of the many sources of Truth that I have. And your â??truthâ? canâ??t even be tested in any way. That, to me, is a dangerous place to be in.

I would never give up dialoging with you, but I respect your wishes to stop. Know that I will never give up on you and that I too love you VERY much. You will always be in my prayers.

Freedom in Truth

[Freedom in Truth]

It looks like this thread is setting some kind of record for length! Kudos to all.

I would like to weigh in on the original question by saying that I think one can know that a particular doctrine is of "demons" if it leads away from Christ and away from following Christ's example.

As such, I would think the doctrine that belief alone is necessary for salvation, regardless of what one does, would be a prime candidate for a "doctrine of ."

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I agree - a â??doctrine of demonsâ? would lead away from knowing the True Christ.

Deuteronomy 13:1-4 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him.

I like this passage because it says that a prophet can correctly foretell a sign or wonder yet be a false prophet - we will know because he will lead people to follow other gods. (He could even give his false god the name of Jesus, yet he presents a different Jesus!)

I would not exactly say that â??Belief alone is necessary for salvation, regardless of what one doesâ?. What one does shows what one believes - our thoughts and actions are interwoven. Who would believe that I LOVED cheesecake if I never chose to have it when I am ordering dessert? (assuming that I am not on a diet or allergic to cheese, etc.)

Good works DONâ??T save us, but they do generally show where our heart is. If we are walking with God there will usually be outward signs. Good works show our relationship and obedience, and they increase our strength and maturity - but they do not provide salvation. Do you see the difference?

[Freedom in Truth]

Paul, shmaul. Why don't you answer my question, FIT? Do you have an answer?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Consiglieri - I prayerfully take posts one at a time. I will always answer your questions as I SEE them. Patience is a virtue, as they say!

If I donâ??t have an answer I will tell you and I will pray and study and try to find one.

So you don't have an answer to my question, do you, FIT?

Come on. You can admit it.

Confession is good for the soul.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Yup, I answered you! What are your comments?

[consiglieri]

Consiglieri - I prayerfully take posts one at a time. I will always answer your questions as I SEE them. Patience is a virtue, as they say!

If I donâ??t have an answer I will tell you and I will pray and study and try to find one.

Yup, I answered you! What are your comments?

My comments are that you have picked the single most subjective criteria for defining a prophet that one could imagine.

If a prophet teaches you a doctrine of God different from the apostate Trinitarian formula of the 4th century Catholic church, you conclude he is leading you after "other gods" and denounce him as a false prophet.

I am thinking you are on thin ice with this one.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

Bump.

Because I am interested in seeing FIT's response.

[ed2276]

Bump.

Because I am interested in seeing FIT's response.

Consiglieri , would you do me a favor and tell me what the "bump" business is about? I need an edumication as to this board term. Thanks.

[consiglieri]

I think it means that a thread has matriculated to a second or subsequent page and you want to bring it front and center again without really adding anything of substance.

[ed2276]

I think it means that a thread has matriculated to a second or subsequent page and you want to bring it front and center again without really adding anything of substance.

ok ,thanks.

[Freedom in Truth]

This statement pre-supposes that authorship of the various books of the bible has been accurately attributed to the authors held by tradition (and tradition alone, in many cases).

Well, no - not really. Even if the authors of some books are debated - even if you think more books are written by one author instead of various authors - you still have a considerable time span with many different authors, etc.

As far as revelation being consistent, that's open for debate. Consider THE BIBLE: Unique in Its Continuity, and, of course, see the many lists of inconsistencies at the link in my signature.

Your link above says the page has vanished and is not found.

As far as your signature links - would you like to point out one subject or article to begin with? Are the contradictions concerning details or major doctrines? I didnâ??t think we finished the issue of holiness yet.