How Can We Know When We Hear

[Freedom in Truth]

No I depend on the texts that inspired the Artists AND more importantly what the Church of the Artists say about the text. Then I go to God and ask him, in Prayer.

According to the Vatican Adams Body looks like Gods Body. At least thats what the caption of the picture says on the Vaticans web site.

Link? The Catholics do not believe God has a flesh and bone body. We are made in the image of God - that does not mean God has a body.

Was Jesus fair-skinned? Did He have light brown to blonde hair?

Was the Last Supper at a tall dining table?

Returning from an erand elders asked JS why his prophecy was not fulfillled.

After prayer JS came and said " Some revelations are from God , some from men and some from the devil"

My take is JS was saying this one was one of the latter two. It wasn't a doctrinal issue, nevertheless if he gets confused sometimes I'm sure we will also. Thats why we have scripture as a standard.

Do you call hearing from men or the devil â??revelationsâ??

What do you mean by â??Thatâ??s why we have scripture as a standardâ??

[Freedom in Truth]

This is the thread that never ends.

Yes, it goes on and on my friends.

Some people started posting here

Not knowing what it was.

And they'll continue posting here

Forever just because

This is the thread that never ends,

Yes, it goes on and on my friends . . .

I love it!! (I used to love that song!)

It never ends because we donâ??t really have an answer yet.

What you fail to see is that you are all saying the same thing.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Do you really think we are saying the same thing? What do you think we are saying?

Hey, what about me? I'm trying to be rude, too!

Aren't you reading my posts?

I feel like the ghost of Christmas past.

--Consiglieri

Iâ??m laughing again! I am usually behind in answering posts so I just take them one by one . . . Thatâ??s why I donâ??t see yours right away. Yes, youâ??ve had your rude moments in the past so donâ??t feel bad - you are succeeding in accomplishing your goal! (I hope that isnâ??t really your goal!)

[Freedom in Truth]

That voice is me!

It's my voice!

Can't anybody hear me?

I'm starting to get a complex.

I like that version of my name! Yup, Iâ??m hearing you! And how do we know that Paul Ray isnâ??t hearing YOUR voice?

[Doctor Steuss]

I do not think the context of Numbers 23:19 supports â??son of manâ? as a Messianic title.

I actually ended up creating another thread about "The Son of Man." I (now) agree with your above statement.

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...c=22592&hl=

[Freedom in Truth]

It never ceases to amaze me how often we LDS are told by critics that we can't rely on the promptings of the Spirit in any of its forms (burning in the bosom, the voice of God to us or to a prophet, the ministry of angels, etc.) These critics insist that we can only depend on the Bible for truth.

I would tell ANYONE that they canâ??t just rely on their own feelings and ideas on who is speaking to them - traditional Christians or ANYONE. All of us can be deceived. Anyone can be wrong. We all need a standard.

How the blazes do they think the Bible came to exist? Did it fall out of the sky one incredible day, whole and ready to read? Or was it perhaps the voice of God, revealed to prophets through the ages and confirmed by the witness of the Spirit as well as the visitation of angels?

f those are my two choices I would have to pick choice two (though I donâ??t think it is a complete answer). The Bible has consistent revelation. The revelations of JS are not consistent with the Bible (and perhaps not even consistent in themselves) and that is the problem. God should have the same character, donâ??t you think? Godâ??s Truth should be the same, donâ??t you think? More details shouldnâ??t mean older details are contradicted.

Can Satan counterfeit every possible manifestation of God to man? What a pathetic God that would be. And if so, perhaps, the whole edifice of Christianity, nay, even Judaism itself is a big Satanic scheme, from the alleged theophany of Abraham right on up through the vision of Paul.

Satan does not have Godâ??s power. The Egyptian magicians could not reproduce every plague. Satan can speak to us humans, but he wouldnâ??t really be loving, selfless, all-knowing, honest, etc. (though he might â??appearâ? to be these things). Look at the character of the one you listen to. Is the one you listen to leading you to honor and worship God, or is he leading you to focusing on someone else . . . like yourself?

Perhaps the true universe is nothing but green cheese.

Well, not with current definitions. We know the earth is not green cheese and the earth is part of the universe. By the way, is there really a cheese that is green?

[Paul Ray]

I like that version of my name! Yup, Iâ??m hearing you! And how do we know that Paul Ray isnâ??t hearing YOUR voice?

How long will you continue to call me by my first and middle name, Freedom in Truth?

Why not just call me by my first name, like my friends do.

You can call me Paul if you want to. I won't stop you.

I like my friends to call me Paul.

[Freedom in Truth]

When you know God, I think you will also know God's voice.

What if I know God now?

Are you saying you knew God before you knew His voice?

Reading through this post it seems that the voice you hear told you it is God.

Not quite. It wasn't a voice telling me it was God. It was God telling me, with God's voice.

So you hear a voice - you believe it is Godâ??s voice - and the voice tells you it is God?

Here is an example I have thought of -

10 years ago you weighed some apples and found that 3 apples equals a pound. From that point on you didnâ??t weigh apples anymore - you just assumed that 3 apples equals a pound. Some years the apple crop produces smaller apples - some years the apples are larger. Itâ??s hard to notice the change in apple size from year to year, so if you assume 3 apples equals a pound you will be wrong. But - you can check the weight of 3 apples with a scale. The scale will tell you if you are accurate or not. You cannot rely on judging the weight of 3 apples without a scale.

Okay. I think I see your point. I guess God is my scale, in that way.

That would be like saying that my judgment of a pound of apples is my scale. That would be a problem, right?

It would not be accurate to say that God is your scale, but that your identification of God and His voice is your scale. So your scale would be your own idea of who God is and His voice. It seems to me that you, your senses and feelings, are your scale.

Yes. I checked the accuracy against a scale, and I also checked the scale.

I have experimented with God's words enough to trust God.

You checked the accuracy of your judgment that you are hearing God by deciding that what you heard was God, correct? How did you check your scale?

On the one hand, you tell me you can be wrong and deceived, but on the other hand you tell me you canâ??t be wrong about knowing that the voice you hear is Godâ??s. Does this make sense to you?

In order to clarify what you said - you were attending a traditional Christian church and sometime during that period you heard Godâ??s voice? Then you were introduced to Mormonism and heard the same voice tell you Mormonism was true?

Yes.

Did this voice say to you something like, â?Well, Paul, at one time I told you Jesusâ?? death covered all your sins, but I changed my mind and now Iâ??m telling you that Jesusâ?? death only covers your original sin. I just thought youâ??d like to know that.â??

What kind of church were you attending?

It is called the "Church of Christ".

I have visited a Church of Christ. I remember that they donâ??t use instruments in their worship.

I was fulfilled in that Church. I was preparing to be a full-time minister, like my Dad and Granddad.

I was trying to convert the missionary who then helped to convert me... because she had more to offer.

How did your family feel about you becoming a Mormon?

Maybe the Mormon missionary simply understood her faith better than you understood yours.

I would believe that you believed you were, if you told me... unless I thought you were joking, of course.

Letâ??s say it is important for you to know whether or not I really am Philip Yancey. How could you attempt to check me?

You believe the voice is Godâ??s, but you have not established that yet outside of your own beliefs. You have no scale.

I don't think you heard me, yet. God is my scale. I have established that it was God, for myself.

Paul, I wrote this post all at once, before you answered.

How have you, outside of your own feelings and senses, established that it is God?

Why would I need someone else to tell me God is God when I already know God is God?

Who else do you suggest I trust, besides God?

You are not trusting God but your judgment that the voice you hear is Godâ??s. If you are wrong or deceived (which you have admitted you can be) then you are not hearing from God at all.

If the voice is not God then you are not believing God personally.

Yes, good point. I have already thought about that. But it is God I am believing, personally.

How can you know? How can you check your judgment of whose voice you are hearing?

Try thinking of how I would know if you were you unless I really knew it was you.

How would I know it was you?

Good question. Obviously you know I use â??Freedom in Truthâ?. But how can you know the same person (me) always uses â??Freedom in Truthâ?? How can you know if, say, three people are using â??Freedom in Truthâ? - one person writes some posts while the other two write other posts?

Jesus Christ would be a great witness to God the Father. Look at what Jesus said and did. Do your ideas of God match what Jesus said about Him?

Yes. And btw, Jesus is God, also.

Wait a minute - you believe Jesus is God? You believe in the Trinity concept?

It seems that JS is your â??scaleâ?.

I don't know why you would think that. God is my scale, for everything.

From another post, it sounds like Mormon leaders are also your scale, not just God. If what you hear from God contradicts the teachings of your leaders, what do you do?

How accurate a scale is JS?

Pretty accurate, as far as men go. God told me God authorized Joseph to speak for Him.

God is differently represented by JS. Did God represent Himself differently to JS and to people of the Bible? If so, God deceived someone.

You said you heard the voice before you found the teachings of Mormonism. Was the voice teaching you Mormon concepts before you met the Mormon woman?

Yes, I guess so. "Mormon" concepts include Bible concepts, because "Mormons" also have the Bible.

The Mormon interpretation of the Bible is quite different from the traditional Christian interpretation. The two interpretations often totally contradict. The Mormon view of God, Jesus, man, salvation, etc. etc. are totally different.

So, the voice you heard before you met the Mormon woman taught you truths and then contradicted himself after you met the Mormon woman?

I believe I know who God is. I do not put my trust only in what I feel and think I hear. I know I can deceive myself. I have a scale, and I check with the scale daily.

Ditto for me, too.

Hmm. Why don't we agree, I wonder.

That is a very good question. A very important question. A question that needs to be answered. A question I want to find the answer to.

[Freedom in Truth]

Continuation of post between Paul and Freedom in Truth -

The problem is your trust is in yourself only.

I never said that. God is my scale. I suppose God is also yours. Go figure.

No, God is not exactly my scale.

You believe you are hearing from God because you believe you are hearing from God.

Yes. Makes pretty good sense, doesn't it. It also helps that I know who is God.

It is circular reasoning, Paul. I donâ??t think it makes good sense. If you misidentified the voice in the first place you are committing the same mistake over and over.

You trust yourself even though you are capable of being deceived (like all of us).

I trust God speaking to me. That's a little bit different than simply saying I am trusting myself.

If you are using only your own judgment of whose voice you are listening to then you are just trusting yourself. You are only trusting in your judgment. As we have agreed, your judgment could be wrong.

Freedom in Truth - But we must choose carefully who we trust. What is their character, their motives? Do they have godly qualities? Does their â??truthâ? make sense?

Paul - I simply asked God which church I should join, and God told me.

Is there a better recommendation available from anybody else out there?

You have used sensory perception in judging whose voice you hear. What about cognitive perception? As I have heard in some traditional Christian circles - â??God doesnâ??t demand that you check your brain at the door before you come into His presence.â?

Iâ??ve never been very good at following the crowd!

Don't worry. With practice you can get good at anything.

I think I could practice the trumpet until I am blue in the face (literally) and never be good! Practice doesnâ??t always make perfect.

Though we are told we will find it if we humbly and sincerely look.

And do you know who we should look to for all of our answers?

Yes.

There are always crowds. There are crowds of Catholics, crowds of Mormons, crowds of Prosperity Gospel-types, crowds of atheists, etc. The percentage of people who walk the narrow road is low, but there are still many who walk the narrow road.

Yes. And I believe I am walking with them.

I know you believe that.

[Freedom in Truth]

If you haven't figured it out already, what I meant what that I have been taught by God, personally.

I hope that now helps you understand what I meant.

If I asked you if you are a prophet would you say yes? Or would you say that sometimes you are a prophet? How long would you say you have been a prophet - as long as you have heard the voice?

Are you trying to suggest that since I have been a true prophet of God I will always be a true prophet of God, even if someday I am teaching nothing but lies?

Can a true prophet of God someday teach nothing but lies? Is this likely? How would it happen?

Do you have any gum?

Nope. Why do you ask?

[Freedom in Truth]

Have you ever been in a discussion with someone where it seemed you were explaining the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again, and the person you were explaining something to kept asking you to explain the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again?

Try imagining what it is like to be me.

If you want to continue having discussions with me, then please limit your questions to only one or two questions at a time, and then acknowledging that I have answered you after I have answered you.

I don't expect you to agree with me just because I say so, but I have explained my thoughts on this repeatedly. I hope sometime soon you will understand what I have said.

I donâ??t feel you are explaining your thoughts. You are telling me your thoughts, but you donâ??t explain how your thoughts make sense. That is why I keep asking you and I try to ask you in different ways. Here are the important questions so far -

How can you logically say that your identification of the voice you hear is not your own judgment? Though the voice says it is God you decided to believe this voice. You believe the voice because you have decided the voice is speaking the truth. Though you have admitted you can be deceived and wrong, you have decided you cannot be deceived or wrong in your judgment of whose voice you are hearing. I need this explained.

How can you try to determine if I am Philip Yancey?

How can you try to determine if I am one person writing under â??Freedom in Truthâ? or if I am several people using the name â??Freedom in Truthâ??

[Paul Ray]

I donâ??t feel you are explaining your thoughts. You are telling me your thoughts, but you donâ??t explain how your thoughts make sense. That is why I keep asking you and I try to ask you in different ways.

You can think what you want to think, always. I can't make you think what I want you to think.

The only way that I know to share what I know with you is to tell you what I know, in my own way.

I can't talk to you the way you talk to people. I'm not you. I have my own way of communicating.

Here are the important questions so far -

How can you logically say that your identification of the voice you hear is not your own judgment?

By using logical statements to say that I know the voice I hear is not me. That I know I am not communicating with myself, when I know I am hearing from God. I do think to myself, sometimes, but I also talk to God, sometimes, and I know how to tell the difference when I am hearing from God, personally.

And btw, I also know Satan, personally, and the difference between Satan and God.

And I also know lots of other persons.

Though the voice says it is God you decided to believe this voice.

I believe "the voice" because I believe and know "the voice" is of God. It is not my own voice.

You believe the voice because you have decided the voice is speaking the truth.

I believe "the voice" is speaking the truth because I believe and know God always tells the truth.

Though you have admitted you can be deceived and wrong, you have decided you cannot be deceived or wrong in your judgment of whose voice you are hearing. I need this explained.

When you know you know God, you will know you know God. I think that is enough explanation.

How can you try to determine if I am Philip Yancey?

By finding Philip Yancey and asking Philip Yancey if you are Philip Yancey.

If Philip Yancey is a real person, then he is out there somewhere.

How can you try to determine if I am one person writing under â??Freedom in Truthâ? or if I am several people using the name â??Freedom in Truthâ??

By finding you and asking you, personally, while asking if you have authorized other people to write in your name.

There may be other people out there who are also named Freedom in Truth, but I would find the one I am talking to now... the one who is hearing what I am telling him now.

And btw, I can also ask the same question to you, you know.

How would you determine that I am who I am?

[Freedom in Truth]

I am saying that the God the OT prophets knew was the person we now know as Jesus Christ, because that is the only God who ever communicated with them. Since the fall of Adam and Eve, our Father has always spoken through His mediator, who is Jesus Christ.

So you believe that God NEVER communicates to us - it is always Jesus? So when you say you hear Godâ??s voice you donâ??t mean that - you mean you hear Jesusâ?? voice?

If the above is true, then why would you ever say you hear Godâ??s voice? And why would Jesus call himself God to the OT prophets?

The word "practice" was just a word I pulled out of thin air. God didn't inspire me to use that word, specifically. What I meant was that if we want to develop our abilities, we should use them and keep using them, repeatedly. If we stop using them we might lose those abilities. Even our faith from God must be exercised, and if we don't excerise it, we may lose it.

I wouldnâ??t say we â??developâ? our gifts. However, in a sense, we develop our relationship with God by walking with Him each day. If we stop walking with Him we move farther away from Him. Then we will have our eyes and ears on something other than Him and we will weaken in our ability to hear Him, to discern, and we will lose strength to obey, etc.

I think we should "covet earnestly the best gifts" as well as a better way to know and become like God.

All the gifts listed in the chapter are â??the best giftsâ?. We are to eagerly desire one or even several of them - but that does not mean we should all desire all the gifts. Paul was speaking to a group of people when he said â??covet earnestly the best giftsâ?, not to an individual. If we all have all of the gifts we donâ??t need each other, do we? If that is the message of the chapter than Paulâ??s illustration of the body is irrelevant.

Paul never said all will be prophets. There IS something ALL should have - that is the subject of 1 Corinthians 13.

Yes, we have addressed this in other posts, but I am also still addressing it as I speak to you now. The only way to know God is to know God, personally. There is no other way to know God... which means that in the end, our discussions will be pointless. The only way you will know that I am sharing the truth is if God tells you or assures you, personally.

I would never want to rely only on my sensory perception of Godâ??s voice because I know I could be deceived or wrong. You have decided you canâ??t be wrong in this area. So I donâ??t know how you think you could be deceived or wrong at all - can you explain?

I don't really know if you have learned from God, personally, or not. You may only be repeating what other people have told you, because you believe what they have told you makes sense. I do know that I know some things that you don't know, concerning Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, for instance, and that I have learned about those things from God, personally.

So though I hypothetically told you that I know Godâ??s voice and hear from Him you would not necessarily believe me? How do you determine whether or not I hear from God?

I think you should try using the word AND more than the word OR. For instance:

God (Jesus Christ) was once a man like us AND He really wasn't (because He was perfect and sinless, and we are not).

God (Jesus Christ) is without beginning AND He was created in the form of Man, just like the rest of us.

God (Jesus Christ) is one of many gods persons who are God AND the only God Man has known or communicated with since the fall of Adam and Eve AND not the only person who is God, because our Father and the Holy Ghost are ALSO God.

I think we may be having trouble communicating. When I asked about â??Godâ? I was referring to â??Heavenly Fatherâ?. You do believe Heavenly Father is a separate person from Jesus, correct? Do you not use the word â??Godâ? for â??Heavenly Fatherâ??

Jesus Christ, in LDS theology, is a spirit child of Heavenly Father, correct? That would mean he has a beginning, correct? And Heavenly Father was once a spirit child of his fatherâ??s, correct? That would mean also that he had a beginning.

Are you without beginning? Are you one of many persons who are God?

Does the Bible ever mean â??Heavenly Fatherâ? when the word â??Godâ? is used?

I am not sure your thinking lines up with LDS theology - I hope to keep discussing this as you answer my questions.

Yes, but the information he changed was the information God told him to change to restore gospel truths.

His â??changed and added informationâ? changes the character of God.

Or, maybe, you just don't correctly understand how the teachings God gave us through Joseph Smith are in harmony with the teachings of God's other prophets, even though some of those teachings do not agree with some other teachings of mere men.

If JSâ??s teachings were in harmony with Biblical prophets then JS wouldnâ??t have had to change the Bible.

This brings up another question I have asked in the past and have never gotten an answer to. If corrupt men altered â??precious truthsâ? in the Bible what was their motive? Does it make sense that they would have taken out â??we can all be godsâ? and put in â??we can never be a god - there is only one Godâ?? Does it make sense that they would have taken out â??Jesus died for only your original sin so you have to earn exaltationâ? and put in â??Jesus died for all your sinsâ?? And, wouldnâ??t it make sense that they would take out embarrassing moments and mistakes of Biblical prophets, leaders, disciples, etc.? I mean, why have your leadership look bad?

Usually when people change things they put in what they want to hear.

Why do you believe what you believe, my brother. Who has told you that you know the truth?

I use both cognitive and sensory perception/skills to know Truth. Cognitive perception (logic, for example) is very important - that is how I guard against the possibility of being wrong or deceived. That is how I can get outside of myself and confirm what I think and/or hear. God gave me a brain and I believe He wants me to use it. Cognitive thinking is important, but sensory perception is part of the picture too.

God has personally assured me that God spoke to Joseph Smith, personally.

So your basis is yourself. That is not enough for me. Iâ??ve met all sorts of people who think all sorts of things. Do you see what I mean? I can tell you God told me He was a daisy at one time - that doesnâ??t make it so.

Perhaps you didn't hear me. Or maybe you just don't believe me. There is no "office" called "prophet".

Prophet is just a word we use to refer to someone who has learned from and about God, personally.

Office - A position of authority, duty, or trust given to a person. Your President is THE prophet for the LDS church. You may not use the word â??officeâ? but the meaning is the same. He is the main prophet for the church. This really isnâ??t important, though. We are just using different words.

Yes, we do. And we also sustain them as seers and revelators,

But their office is as an apostle of our Lord, Jesus Christ. They were prophets before they were ordained to that office.

I would say seers and revelators are the same as prophets. How do you think seers and revelators are different from prophets?

Can you show me many, or any, place(s) in the NT where the disciples/apostles are called prophets?

I can be deceived, as you can, but I can still know the truth, as you can.

Do you believe you can know the truth, sometimes, even though you can also be deceived, sometimes?

What say you?

I am talking here about being deceived or being wrong about your judgment of whose voice you are hearing, not about one issue or point. I am addressing the whole general picture - your judgment of who you are hearing from. In this case, you canâ??t be deceived AND know Truth. If you are hearing from God He isnâ??t going to tell you anything false.

So - is it impossible for you to be deceived or wrong about whose voice you are hearing? You have said in the past that it is not possible for you to be wrong or deceived about recognizing Godâ??s voice. So are you saying that you CANNOT be wrong or deceived in knowing Godâ??s voice?

If you say that you are perfect in recognizing Godâ??s voice then I would think you could never be wrong or deceived, correct? If so, then how can you say you can be wrong or deceived?

I never said that I don't believe you are not learning from God. I've simply said tat I don't know if you have. Even when you say something that I agree with, you may only be repeating what someone other than God has taught you. At this point I can only say that God hasn't helped to teach you about some of the things that I know.

You and I believe contradictory truths in many cases. If I tell you God teaches (and has taught) me then is God teaching one of us falsely? If I said God taught me that Jesusâ?? death covers ALL sin (not just original sin) and I need not do anything more for my sins that are not original sin - that teaching contradicts Mormon teaching that not all my sins are covered by Jesusâ?? death. How would you determine who really heard from God on this point?

[Paul Ray]

AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!

ANOTHER POST FROM FREEDOM OF TRUTH, RESPONDING TO ME !!!!!!!!!

HELP ME !!!

HELP ME !!!

I THINK THIS COULD GO ON FOREVER !!!!!!!

[Paul Ray]

Uh humm.

Excuse me.

You were saying?

So you believe that God NEVER communicates to us - it is always Jesus? So when you say you hear Godâ??s voice you donâ??t mean that - you mean you hear Jesusâ?? voice?

Uh. Freedom of Truth? I believe Jesus Christ is God. Don't you?

But, yes, my Father doesn't speak to me. At least not at this time.

Right now he speaks to me through a Mediator... who is Jesus Christ... who is also God, personally.

And Jesus Christ often speaks to me through a representative as well... the Holy Ghost... and the Holy Ghost is also God, personally.

Just in case you didn't know that. I hope you do, now.

If the above is true, then why would you ever say you hear Godâ??s voice?

Because I do. Our Father, and Jesus Chrsit, and the Holy Ghost are all God.

I'm sorry. I thought you knew that already.

And why would Jesus call himself God to the OT prophets?

Because his, and our, Father, told him to. That is one reason.

Oh, would you look at the time. It is now my lunch time, Freedom.

I'll talk to you again, later. Real soon.

I am sure.

[Freedom in Truth]

I ask for God's assurance concerning what anyone and everyone tells me, even when I am hearing from people I know are God's authorized representatives. And I answer to my leaders in the Church because I know they are God's representatives on this Earth.

Everything depends on what the voice you hear tells you, doesnâ??t it? IF this voice is God, youâ??re good. If the voice isnâ??t God, you are in trouble, and that is serious. Everything rides on your ability to know Godâ??s voice. Where is your confirmation?

So what is the point of discussing the subject of this thread with each other?

I agree that I am learning about you as I hear from you, but I am also learning about the truths you are sharing with me, because I am asking God for His assurances concerning what you are sharing with me.

I do not feel yet that you have answered my questions. But that is O-K, people have to work to understand and communicate with each other. I like you and I want to understand you. So far, I am reluctant to learn from you because you have not yet validated to me that you hear from God. I only see that you â??feelâ? and â??thinkâ? you hear from God. Plus, the things you say are opposed to what I know as Truth. So, that means you and I are not both hearing from God.

By the way, if one learns from those who hear directly from God, arenâ??t they still learning Godâ??s truth? They would be missing out on a relationship with God, but they would still be learning truth, right? (that is assuming they never directly hear from God)

I think I am sharing more truth than you are sharing with me, but I still am learning a thing or two about the truth as I hear what you are sharing with me.

... I particularly liked that part about having talents, and a true pitch, or whatever you called it.

Perfect pitch - thanks!

I am not really trying to share Truth with you. I have been trying to understand how it is that you can be so sure you hear from God when you could be wrong or deceived. I have been trying to â??check my sourceâ?. I check out who I am hearing from before I seriously listen to their words. Another approach would be to listen to what you are saying and check out your teachings. You are not checking out because you have not yet answered why you canâ??t be wrong about who you are hearing from. Your teachings are not checking out because they present a different God and a different Truth. I have checked out the Truth I know. If I were to consider a different â??truthâ? I would have to have a very good reason. That means I need to be sure that you are hearing from God. The only assurance you have given me that you are hearing from God is that you believe you are hearing from God. That is not enough because it is just your own personal feeling. Do you understand?

How would you check to know if I am hearing from God?

Do you think some people are more gifted with the ability to know the truth than some other people?

I wouldnâ??t put it that way. I would say some people devote more time and effort to walking with God and having a relationship with Him, therefore they might have a deeper understanding of God and His ways. I suppose people gifted with a higher intellect might understand more than those with a not-as-high intellect, but a more humble heart might understand more than a heart that has more pride (because a humble heart might listen more). So it is hard to say. We are all individuals. In the end itâ??s not so much what you know but Who you know.

[Freedom in Truth]

How long will you continue to call me by my first and middle name, Freedom in Truth?

Why not just call me by my first name, like my friends do.

You can call me Paul if you want to. I won't stop you.

I like my friends to call me Paul.

I call someone by the name they give until instructed otherwise. I cannot know what someone wants to be called so I stick with what they use. But I will call you Paul from now on.

I like my full name - Freedom in Truth - best!

[Freedom in Truth]

AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!

ANOTHER POST FROM FREEDOM OF TRUTH, RESPONDING TO ME !!!!!!!!!

HELP ME !!!

HELP ME !!!

I THINK THIS COULD GO ON FOREVER !!!!!!!

No, not forever! Just until I get an answer to my question!

It's an important question. That's why I keep trying.

[Freedom in Truth]

I can't talk to you the way you talk to people. I'm not you. I have my own way of communicating.

Right, but I believe we each need to try our hardest to communicate with others. That may mean that I need to think of different ways to say the same thing if the person isnâ??t understanding me. Teachers have to do that kind of thing all the time to teach different students. The same explanation of a principle wonâ??t work for every student.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Here are the important questions so far -

How can you logically say that your identification of the voice you hear is not your own judgment?

Paul - By using logical statements to say that I know the voice I hear is not me. That I know I am not communicating with myself, when I know I am hearing from God. I do think to myself, sometimes, but I also talk to God, sometimes, and I know how to tell the difference when I am hearing from God, personally.

And btw, I also know Satan, personally, and the difference between Satan and God.

And I also know lots of other persons.

You have said that the voice that is Godâ??s identified itself as God. Why did you believe this?

How do you tell the difference between Godâ??s voice and Satanâ??s voice?

I believe "the voice" because I believe and know "the voice" is of God. It is not my own voice.

How do you know? How did you determine the voice is Godâ??s? Not being your voice doesnâ??t mean it is Godâ??s voice.

I believe "the voice" is speaking the truth because I believe and know God always tells the truth

When you know you know God, you will know you know God. I think that is enough explanation.

That is not enough for me. Other people say they know God but they really donâ??t - they are either wrong or deceived. Why are you different that you canâ??t be wrong or deceived? What makes you different from other people?

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

How can you try to determine if I am Philip Yancey?

Paul - By finding Philip Yancey and asking Philip Yancey if you are Philip Yancey.

If Philip Yancey is a real person, then he is out there somewhere.

Philip Yancey is a real person - you can go to amazon.com. You may not be able to speak with Philip Yancey. And, itâ??s always possible he wonâ??t tell you or he will lie. (Since you donâ??t know him you donâ??t know if he is a liar.)

The first thing I would do is compare Freedom in Truthâ??s writings and thoughts to Philip Yanceyâ??s writings and thoughts in his books. If we write and think contradicting ideas then we are probably not the same person, correct?

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

How can you try to determine if I am one person writing under â??Freedom in Truthâ? or if I am several people using the name â??Freedom in Truthâ??

Paul - By finding you and asking you, personally, while asking if you have authorized other people to write in your name.

I could lie. I could refuse to answer.

What about looking at my posts and comparing them? Is the writing style the same? Does the thinking pattern match? Do some posts have tons of misspelled words and some are close to perfect in spelling? Do the posts present the same personality? The same thoughts? The same answers to the same questions? The same truth?

There may be other people out there who are also named Freedom in Truth, but I would find the one I am talking to now... the one who is hearing what I am telling him now.

How would you begin to find the Freedom in Truth you are writing to?

And btw, I can also ask the same question to you, you know.

How would you determine that I am who I am?

I could attempt to determine that one person uses your name by comparing your posts in the ways I listed above. (Iâ??m sure I would think of other ways as well!) I couldnâ??t determine who you are in real life unless you are one of the people I have met and gotten to know . If I knew you in real life I would compare your speech and thoughts, etc. to the posts.

Interestingly, I was invited on this board by someone I knew on another site. We both changed our names from the ones we used on the other site. Yet, very quickly, we identified each other! I do not know this person in real life but I identified him by his posts and his personality that came through his posts. It was amazing to us that we identified each other so quickly!

Do you understand why I am asking you these questions? Do you see what I am getting at?

[Paul Ray]

I wouldnâ??t say we â??developâ? our gifts. However, in a sense, we develop our relationship with God by walking with Him each day. If we stop walking with Him we move farther away from Him. Then we will have our eyes and ears on something other than Him and we will weaken in our ability to hear Him, to discern, and we will lose strength to obey, etc.

Pretty much the same thing I was thinking of, in different words.

All the gifts listed in the chapter are â??the best giftsâ?. We are to eagerly desire one or even several of them - but that does not mean we should all desire all the gifts.

The latter part of your sentence is you giving your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

I do not agree with you on that issue.

Paul was speaking to a group of people when he said â??covet earnestly the best giftsâ?, not to an individual. If we all have all of the gifts we donâ??t need each other, do we?

In what sense do you think we need each other now?

I agree that we do, or at least I do, but I believe I still will even when and/or if all of us are perfect.

If that is the message of the chapter than Paulâ??s illustration of the body is irrelevant.

Think what you want. I'm getting kinda tired of trying to teach you everything, myself, personally.

Paul never said all will be prophets. There IS something ALL should have - that is the subject of 1 Corinthians 13.

You are now giving some more of your opinion, some of which I do not agree with.

I would never want to rely only on my sensory perception of Godâ??s voice because I know I could be deceived or wrong.

Ditto... if by sensory perception you are referring to one of the 5 senses.

When God communicates with me, I do say that I "feel" it, but He communicates to me, personally.

There is nothing else exactly like it... you'd have to know, personally, what I am referring to.

You have decided you canâ??t be wrong in this area. So I donâ??t know how you think you could be deceived or wrong at all - can you explain?

I have now come to the point where I know God has assured me of certain things, many things, as a matter of fact. On those issue I can't be wrong because I know it is God who has assured me of those things.

Don't you feel the same way about some things?... or at least on one thing?

Do you know beyond doubt that God loves you, personally, while knowing who you are, specifically?

So though I hypothetically told you that I know Godâ??s voice and hear from Him you would not necessarily believe me?

Why should I, pray tell?

How do you determine whether or not I hear from God?

If God were to tell me that God has spoken to you, then I would know it. Wouldn't I?

I think we may be having trouble communicating.

Yes, I think so too. I think we have been for quite a while now.

When I asked about â??Godâ? I was referring to â??Heavenly Fatherâ?. You do believe Heavenly Father is a separate person from Jesus, correct? Do you not use the word â??Godâ? for â??Heavenly Fatherâ??

Okay, Yes, I do. But I also use the word God to refer to all who are God, generally.

The word "God" can be used in different ways... and all of those ways are all true.

Jesus Christ, in LDS theology, is a spirit child of Heavenly Father, correct?

Yes, as we all are... but our Lord, Jesus Christ, has additional traits that we don't have... at least not while we are mortal.

One additional trait is that our Father is his Father in the flesh... we have fathers who are, or were, only mortal.

Another trait is that our Lord never gave in to sin... not even once... and all the rest of us have.

Another trait is that our Lord has been the mediator for our Father, since the fall of Adam and Eve.

There are also some more distinguishing characteristics that our Lord has, that we don't have, or at least not while we are, or have been, mortal.

That would mean he has a beginning, correct?

No, not necessarily... at least not concerning the beginning of his existence, as we understand existence.

God is eternal, and all of us have always been a part of God, though we haven't always been distinguished.

There has always been a part of us that was, and is, co-eternal with God.

There was never a time when we were created from nothing.

And Heavenly Father was once a spirit child of his fatherâ??s, correct? That would mean also that he had a beginning.

See above.

Are you without beginning? Are you one of many persons who are God?

I am one of many persons who has a spark of divinity of God within me. So are you.

Some day, soon, I hope we both grow up to be exactly like Him.

Does the Bible ever mean â??Heavenly Fatherâ? when the word â??Godâ? is used?

Yes. It's just that our Father isn't the only person referred to with the use of the word "God".

I am not sure your thinking lines up with LDS theology

I'm pretty sure it does. If it didn't I would want to conform my thoughts to the thoughts of all true LDS.

- I hope to keep discussing this as you answer my questions.

Uh. Okay. I'll try to hang in there for you, a little bit longer.

I am honored that you want to know me, personally.

His â??changed and added informationâ? changes the character of God.

Think about what you just said for a second, okay?

Nothing can ever change the character of God. Don't you agree?

But does that mean that if you learn something new about God, God's character is changing?

There are still a lot of things about God that we (LDS) do not know, but we have received additional information... from God, personally.

If JSâ??s teachings were in harmony with Biblical prophets then JS wouldnâ??t have had to change the Bible.

Have you ever even looked to see if Joseph tried to change what "the Bible" said about God?

I don't believe he did. I do know that he gave us some more information that prophets who wrote the Bible didn't mention, or at least not that we can now find in the Bible, but I haven't found any place where he changed what the Bible says about God.

If you really think he did, though, please point it out for me. I won't believe it just because you said so.

This brings up another question I have asked in the past and have never gotten an answer to. If corrupt men altered â??precious truthsâ? in the Bible what was their motive?

First of all, who says everything God ever revealed about God is or was written in the Bible?

Do you? I don't. I know there's a lot that God revealed that wasn't written in the Bible, and if it all had been, it would be a much, much, much, much bigger book... or actually a bigger collection of books.

Does it make sense that they would have taken out â??we can all be godsâ? and put in â??we can never be a god - there is only one Godâ?? Does it make sense that they would have taken out â??Jesus died for only your original sin so you have to earn exaltationâ? and put in â??Jesus died for all your sinsâ?? And, wouldnâ??t it make sense that they would take out embarrassing moments and mistakes of Biblical prophets, leaders, disciples, etc.? I mean, why have your leadership look bad?

Who decides who are the leaders? Who decides who others should pay attention to?

There was a limited number of men who chose to compile what we now know as the Holy Bible.

I think what we have is good, but there was a lot more they could have added.

The people who wrote what we have in the Holy Bible said so themselves... often quoting from some other sources.

Usually when people change things they put in what they want to hear.

Yep, there you go. Good point.

I think the people who compiled the Holy Bible chose the things they wanted to put in the Holy Bible.

I would have preferred that they give us everything that was ever written, so I could now read it all for myself.

I use both cognitive and sensory perception/skills to know Truth. Cognitive perception (logic, for example) is very important - that is how I guard against the possibility of being wrong or deceived. That is how I can get outside of myself and confirm what I think and/or hear. God gave me a brain and I believe He wants me to use it. Cognitive thinking is important, but sensory perception is part of the picture too.

All of those things are important, I believe, but there is something else that I believe is necessary.

I believe we also need God to assure us, personally, to help us know what is true.

I don't believe the thinking is done when we have done all of the thinking.

There is a lot more that God can help us to think of.

So your basis is yourself.

No.

You've said that, what, at least 3 or 4 times now, and every time I have shot it down.

My basis is God. My foundation is God. I know God, as well as myself.

That is not enough for me. Iâ??ve met all sorts of people who think all sorts of things. Do you see what I mean? I can tell you God told me He was a daisy at one time - that doesnâ??t make it so.

I now agree with you again. I like it when this happens. Why can't we just do this more often?

Office - A position of authority, duty, or trust given to a person. Your President is THE prophet for the LDS church. You may not use the word â??officeâ? but the meaning is the same. He is the main prophet for the church. This really isnâ??t important, though. We are just using different words.

I believe I am also trying to tell you something that you don't know. It isn't only a difference in words.

I would say seers and revelators are the same as prophets.

... probably because you really don't know what seers and revelators are.

How do you think seers and revelators are different from prophets?

Seers actually see what our Lord sees, from His perspective, usually with the use of Urim and Thummim. You can find out more about seers by searching our (LDS) archives at lds.org

Revelators declare what our Lord openly reveals to them, using the words that God uses... more than inspired thoughts all prophets interpret with God's help.

They are all pretty much the same thing, in that they are all forms of revelation, but they are slightly different forms of communication that God uses.

Can you show me many, or any, place(s) in the NT where the disciples/apostles are called prophets?

I would rather teach you how to fish than to continue giving you fish.

Click on this link http://scriptures.lds.org/ and then use the Topical Guide to find all scriptures on prophets.

So - is it impossible for you to be deceived or wrong about whose voice you are hearing? You have said in the past that it is not possible for you to be wrong or deceived about recognizing Godâ??s voice. So are you saying that you CANNOT be wrong or deceived in knowing Godâ??s voice?

Yes, that is what I am saying.

There is nobody who can convince me I am not hearing from God, because God personally assures me that I am.

If you say that you are perfect in recognizing Godâ??s voice then I would think you could never be wrong or deceived, correct? If so, then how can you say you can be wrong or deceived?

I might become too prideful, thinking that I can know for myself without asking for God's assurance.

I might hear from Satan... he's very clever, that one... and then just assume it is God without asking for God's assurance.

If at any time I ever think I don't need to go to God, personally, I can then be wrong or deceived.

You and I believe contradictory truths in many cases. If I tell you God teaches (and has taught) me then is God teaching one of us falsely?

I think it would help you to separate the different beliefs we have about different things.

I believe you and I do agree on a lot of issues.

And no, God never teaches anyone falsely.

If I said God taught me that Jesusâ?? death covers ALL sin (not just original sin) and I need not do anything more for my sins that are not original sin - that teaching contradicts Mormon teaching that not all my sins are covered by Jesusâ?? death. How would you determine who really heard from God on this point?

By asking God, for myself, personally.

Why would I ever believe what you say about anything?

[Paul Ray]

No, not forever! Just until I get an answer to my question!

It's an important question. That's why I keep trying.

Freedom In Truth,

Please acknowledge right here and now that I've been continuing to answer your questions.

What you just said about trying until you get an answer seems to show you don't know I have answered you... repeatedly.

If you can't hear what I'm saying I might as well stop answering you now.

Go ahead and try summarizing what I have already told you.

[Freedom in Truth]

Uh. Freedom of Truth? I believe Jesus Christ is God. Don't you?

I believe in the Trinity. But, Mormons donâ??t believe Jesus is God (Heavenly Father).

LDS Bible Dictionary - God (boldfaced text mine)

The supreme Governor of the universe and the Father of mankind. We learn from the revelations that have been given that there are three separate persons in the Godhead: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. From latter-day revelation we learn that the Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bone, and that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit without flesh and bone (D&C 130: 22-23).

When one speaks of God, it is generally the Father who is referred to; that is, Elohim. All mankind are his children. The personage known as Jehovah in Old Testament times, and who is usually identified in the Old Testament as LORD (in capital letters), is the Son, known as Jesus Christ, and who is also a God. (not God) Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with him. All mankind are his brethren and sisters, he being the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim. Many of the things that the scripture says were done were actually done by the LORD (Jesus). Thus the scripture says that â??God created the heaven and the earthâ? (Gen. 1: 1), but we know that it was actually the LORD (Jesus) who was the creator (John 1: 3, 10), (this doesn't make good sense with God generally referring to the Father and Jehovah referring to Jesus) or as Paul said, God created all things by Christ Jesus (Eph. 3: 9). The Holy Ghost is also a God and is variously called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit, the Spirit of God, etc.

But, yes, my Father doesn't speak to me. At least not at this time.

Right now he speaks to me through a Mediator... who is Jesus Christ... who is also God, personally.

Ah, so you DONâ??T believe Jesus is God the Father. So you know Jesusâ?? voice, not Godâ??s . . . correct? And you know the Holy Spiritâ??s voice, and you can tell the difference between Jesusâ?? voice and the Holy Spiritâ??s voice, correct?

Paul - And Jesus Christ often speaks to me through a representative as well... the Holy Ghost... and the Holy Ghost is also God, personally.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

If the above is true, then why would you ever say you hear Godâ??s voice?

Paul - Because I do. Our Father, and Jesus Chrsit, and the Holy Ghost are all God.

I'm sorry. I thought you knew that already.

My understanding of Mormon theology is that they are all persons of the Godhead. They are united in purpose and doctrine but they are not all â??Godâ?.

From LDS Gospel Library - Gospel Topics - Godhead

â??From the Prophet's account of the First Vision and from his other teachings, we know that the members of the Godhead are three separate beings. The Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bones, and the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit (see D&C 130:22).

Although the members of the Godhead are distinct beings with distinct roles, they are one in purpose and doctrine. They are perfectly united in bringing to pass Heavenly Father's divine plan of salvation.â?

Do you have a little bit of Traditional Christian Trinitarian thinking left over from your pre-Mormon days?

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

And why would Jesus call himself God to the OT prophets?

Paul - Because his, and our, Father, told him to. That is one reason.

Where is that written?

[Paul Ray]

I believe in the Trinity. But, Mormons donâ??t believe Jesus is God (Heavenly Father).

Do you? Do you believe Jesus is the same person as our Father in heaven?

LDS Bible Dictionary - God (boldfaced text mine)

The supreme Governor of the universe and the Father of mankind. We learn from the revelations that have been given that there are three separate persons in the Godhead: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. From latter-day revelation we learn that the Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bone, and that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit without flesh and bone (D&C 130: 22-23).

When one speaks of God, it is generally the Father who is referred to; that is, Elohim. All mankind are his children. The personage known as Jehovah in Old Testament times, and who is usually identified in the Old Testament as LORD (in capital letters), is the Son, known as Jesus Christ, and who is also a God. (not God) Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with him. All mankind are his brethren and sisters, he being the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim. Many of the things that the scripture says were done were actually done by the LORD (Jesus). Thus the scripture says that â??God created the heaven and the earthâ? (Gen. 1: 1), but we know that it was actually the LORD (Jesus) who was the creator (John 1: 3, 10), (this doesn't make good sense with God generally referring to the Father and Jehovah referring to Jesus) or as Paul said, God created all things by Christ Jesus (Eph. 3: 9). The Holy Ghost is also a God and is variously called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit, the Spirit of God, etc.

I've read that before. Did you have a point, or something?

Ah, so you DONâ??T believe Jesus is God the Father.

Right. I don't believe Jesus is gthe same person as our Father in heaven. But I do believe Jesus is God.

So you know Jesusâ?? voice, not Godâ??s . . . correct?

Because I believe, and also know beyond doubt, that Jesus is also God, I do know God's voice.

It might help if you stop using the word God, for a moment, and refer to each specific person.

And you know the Holy Spiritâ??s voice, and you can tell the difference between Jesusâ?? voice and the Holy Spiritâ??s voice, correct?

Hmm. I'm not sure about that one. At this point I can't tell any difference.

My understanding of Mormon theology is that they are all persons of the Godhead. They are united in purpose and doctrine but they are not all â??Godâ?.

I think you've almost got it. They are all God, but they all aren't our Father in heaven.

We believe there are 3 distinct and separate persons.

From LDS Gospel Library - Gospel Topics - Godhead

â??From the Prophet's account of the First Vision and from his other teachings, we know that the members of the Godhead are three separate beings. The Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bones, and the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit (see D&C 130:22).

Although the members of the Godhead are distinct beings with distinct roles, they are one in purpose and doctrine. They are perfectly united in bringing to pass Heavenly Father's divine plan of salvation.â?

Heh, you don't need to quote our doctrine to me. Just tell me what you think, personally.

Do you have a little bit of Traditional Christian Trinitarian thinking left over from your pre-Mormon days?

Yes. I have simply added to what I once knew. But it is still LDS doctrine.

We believe we know what you know and what we know too.

Where is that written?

I just wrote it. Didn't you see it?

I probably read from someone else who knows it too, though.

I'll let you find it.

[Paul Ray]

Btw, I just scanned through this thread to see how long we have been discussing this, you and I, and I first responded to you in post #32, on page 2, and then in post #146 and #159 on page 8. You responded to me in post #170, on page 9, and again in posts #184 and #200 on page 10, and after post #206 on page 11 we started to have more of a discussionâ?¦ responding with more back and forth comments to each other... really getting into it after post #350 on page 18.

I was also surprised to see that you seem to be the predominant person posting in this thread.

â?¦ just about everybody is, or was, responding to your comments.

It seems that I am the only one who is still responding to you now.

[Freedom in Truth]

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

All the gifts listed in the chapter are â??the best giftsâ?. We are to eagerly desire one or even several of them - but that does not mean we should all desire all the gifts.

Paul - The latter part of your sentence is you giving your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

I do not agree with you on that issue.

We should desire the Giver and then receive the gifts He gives. Our focus should not be on the gifts but the Giver.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Paul was speaking to a group of people when he said â??covet earnestly the best giftsâ?, not to an individual. If we all have all of the gifts we donâ??t need each other, do we?

Paul - In what sense do you think we need each other now?

I agree that we do, or at least I do, but I believe I still will even when and/or if all of us are perfect.

If everyone has all gifts you would not â??needâ? anyone else, though you may â??wantâ? their fellowship. â??Wantingâ? isnâ??t â??needingâ?.

When we are all perfected and in Godâ??s presence these gifts will be irrelevant. These are gifts for NOW.

1 Corinthians 12:7-11 7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

1 Corinthians 12:27-30 27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

These passages support that people receive different gifts. If you donâ??t agree please support your belief with scripture.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Paul never said all will be prophets. There IS something ALL should have - that is the subject of 1 Corinthians 13.

Paul - You are now giving some more of your opinion, some of which I do not agree with.

I am not giving my opinion - I am giving you what scripture says. My opinion is worth nothing and that is why I give you something that does have worth - scripture. Wouldnâ??t you agree that scripture is worth more than what I think or what you think?

1 Corinthians 12:31b And now I will show you the most excellent way.

1 Corinthians 13:1-3 1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10, 13 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

I would never want to rely only on my sensory perception of Godâ??s voice because I know I could be deceived or wrong.

Paul - Ditto... if by sensory perception you are referring to one of the 5 senses.

When God communicates with me, I do say that I "feel" it, but He communicates to me, personally.

There is nothing else exactly like it... you'd have to know, personally, what I am referring to.

Hearing is a sense. You â??hearâ? a voice.

People have all kinds of spiritual experiences, and they are all quite sure that they know what they saw and what (who) they heard. Yet, many times their experiences contradict. I would be a fool to believe that God used to be a daisy just because someone was convinced they heard Godâ??s voice say this. And I would be a fool to believe God was once a man like us just because you are convinced you heard Godâ??s voice say this.

I understand you are convinced you hear God (Jesus) and He teaches you, but others are just as convinced as you are that THEY are hearing from God. So, either you think you are somehow different from others (which enables you to hear God better), or you understand that it would be unwise for me to believe you merely based on what you think you hear. Which do you believe? And, if you think you hear God better than others, then why?

If I pray about what you hear I might think I hear the same thing you do. But I already know what you believe so I can be influenced by that. Groups of people have been convinced they hear from God and they hear the same things - yet they can be and have been WRONG.

I, along with traditional Christians, believe God the Father has NEVER been a man like us. Mormons believe God the Father HAS been a man like us. Somebody is right and somebody is wrong. Somebody is hearing from the one true God and somebody is not. Since we all sincerely believe we have spiritual experiences and hear from God we need some way OUTSIDE of spiritual experiences of determining who is hearing the Truth.

I have a way of determining Truth outside of spiritual experiences. (which means in addition to spiritual experiences) Do you have anything to stand on other than spiritual experiences?

I have now come to the point where I know God has assured me of certain things, many things, as a matter of fact. On those issue I can't be wrong because I know it is God who has assured me of those things.

Don't you feel the same way about some things?... or at least on one thing?

Do you know beyond doubt that God loves you, personally, while knowing who you are, specifically?

Why didnâ??t God teach you He used to be a man like you BEFORE you met the Mormon woman? God didnâ??t teach you Mormon theology until you met a Mormon who told you about it. Is there a reason God didnâ??t teach you the Mormon idea of truth until you had met a Mormon?

My assurance comes from my walk with God AND my standard. I know God loves me. I donâ??t always â??feelâ? His love, just as my child might not â??feelâ? my love when I discipline him. In these times I always have my standard that tells me over and over how much God loves me. So though I donâ??t â??feelâ? and I donâ??t always â??hearâ? it, I KNOW it.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

So though I hypothetically told you that I know Godâ??s voice and hear from Him you would not necessarily believe me?

Paul - Why should I, pray tell?

Exactly. You shouldnâ??t. And I shouldnâ??t believe you unless you have something else to stand on other than spiritual experiences.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

How do you determine whether or not I hear from God?

Paul - If God were to tell me that God has spoken to you, then I would know it. Wouldn't I?

If you are not hearing from God then the voice you listen to is NOT going to tell you that I DO hear from God.

[Freedom in Truth]

The word "God" can be used in different ways... and all of those ways are all true.

That sounds like your opinion. What is your support for your opinion?

The Father is called God. You also call Jesus God though you donâ??t mean He is the Father, correct? You seem to use the word God for â??Godheadâ? and also specifically for the Father (and sometimes Jesus). This is confusing, and I think it is also misleading because it can sound like you believe the Trinity concept. I though Mormonism was restoring â??plain and preciousâ? truth. This doesnâ??t seem so â??plainâ?.

Are you without beginning? Are you one of many persons who are God?

I am one of many persons who has a spark of divinity of God within me. So are you.

Some day, soon, I hope we both grow up to be exactly like Him.

Am I correct in understanding that the Father, Jesus, Lucifer, angels, and all people are part of God? And this large god-group always was and always will be? If this is true, then since the Father was once a part of his Father, you were in his Father too? And on and on until we get to the beginning of time?

All the teaching you gave me concerning spirit children (Heavenly Father, Jesus, us) are supported by what?

I am not sure your thinking lines up with LDS theology

I'm pretty sure it does. If it didn't I would want to conform my thoughts to the thoughts of all true LDS.

Your statement here leads me to believe that LDS theology takes precedence over what you personally think, correct? So would it be true to say that if you heard God teach you He was once a daisy you would conform to LDS theology and say the truth was God was once a man (and never a daisy)?

His â??changed and added informationâ? changes the character of God.

Think about what you just said for a second, okay?

Nothing can ever change the character of God. Don't you agree?

False teaching can change what we THINK the character of God is, if we choose to believe the teaching. I believe JSâ??s teachings teach people wrong things about the character of God. I think this is incredibly harmful and hurtful to people. And I think it hurts God as well because He loves us and wants us to know Truth. Knowing Truth is what is best for us.

Of course, nothing WE think can change God or His character.

But does that mean that if you learn something new about God, God's character is changing?

LDS teachings often contradict what was previously known about Godâ??s character. They represent God as having a different character than the character of God in the Bible.

Unless you were being sarcastic or funny in a previous post, I know you donâ??t think owning lots of diamonds is important. (Neither do I!) If you wrote a post next week talking about how important expensive jewels were to wear and to own, that is â??additional informationâ?, but that information doesnâ??t go with what I previously knew about you. It changes you from being a practical kind of guy who is not into spending lots of money on expensive jewels - to a guy who IS into spending lots of money on expensive jewels.

There are still a lot of things about God that we (LDS) do not know, but we have received additional information... from God, personally.

Additional information shouldnâ??t tell contradictory things about God. As you have said, the character of God doesnâ??t change. So any additional information should present Godâ??s character as the same.

If JSâ??s teachings were in harmony with Biblical prophets then JS wouldnâ??t have had to change the Bible.

Have you ever even looked to see if Joseph tried to change what "the Bible" said about God?

I don't believe he did. I do know that he gave us some more information that prophets who wrote the Bible didn't mention, or at least not that we can now find in the Bible, but I haven't found any place where he changed what the Bible says about God.

If you really think he did, though, please point it out for me. I won't believe it just because you said so.

Good for you! Donâ??t believe it because I said so! If you want scripture support for what I listed below just let me know and Iâ??ll provide it.

JS said God the Father has a body of flesh and bone. JS said God the Father can be seen. JS said God the Father was once a man. JS changed the Truth that God the Father is the only One True God. JS said God the Father had a son named Lucifer. JS said God the Father and Jesus are two separate persons. JS changed the Truth that God the Father forgive all sin with Jesusâ?? death.

Thatâ??s just for starters.

This brings up another question I have asked in the past and have never gotten an answer to. If corrupt men altered â??precious truthsâ? in the Bible what was their motive?

First of all, who says everything God ever revealed about God is or was written in the Bible?

Do you? I don't. I know there's a lot that God revealed that wasn't written in the Bible, and if it all had been, it would be a much, much, much, much bigger book... or actually a bigger collection of books.

Everything we need to know right now to have a relationship with God is revealed. God wants us to walk with Him. He gave us everything we need.

Extra-Biblical information cannot contradict Biblical information.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Does it make sense that they would have taken out â??we can all be godsâ? and put in â??we can never be a god - there is only one Godâ?? Does it make sense that they would have taken out â??Jesus died for only your original sin so you have to earn exaltationâ? and put in â??Jesus died for all your sinsâ?? And, wouldnâ??t it make sense that they would take out embarrassing moments and mistakes of Biblical prophets, leaders, disciples, etc.? I mean, why have your leadership look bad?

I do not see that you answered a lot of my questions here.

Who decides who are the leaders? Who decides who others should pay attention to?

There was a limited number of men who chose to compile what we now know as the Holy Bible.

The Bible was written over about a fifteen-hundred-year span by more than 40 different authors. These authors were from many different walks of life, including the professions of king, military leader, herdsman, cupbearer to a pagan king, prime minister, physician, fisherman, tax collector, and rabbi. It was written in different times (war, peace, etc.), in different places (the wilderness, prison, a palace, etc.), on different continents, different languages, and in different moods. Yet, with all these differences, REVELATION is consistent. That is something mere humans could never pull off by themselves. That is a sign.

Compare all that to ONE guy who claims that all those people got it wrong. The reason they got it wrong? Because they were ignorant, careless, designing or corrupt and they didnâ??t want us to know Truth. And God let them corrupt the Bible so people for 1700 years wouldnâ??t be able to know God or Truth. (Speaking of changing the way God is represented - does this sound like a powerful God who loves His people?)

And since JS made that claim, he then could teach anything he wanted to. He took away the scale.

I think what we have is good, but there was a lot more they could have added.

The people who wrote what we have in the Holy Bible said so themselves... often quoting from some other sources.

How many miracles of Jesus do you need listed? How many mighty works of God do you need included in the history of the Hebrews? How many stories of the failings of wicked kings do you need to read?

The Bible contains sufficient information. It contains all we need to walk with God.

Usually when people change things they put in what they want to hear.

Yep, there you go. Good point.

I think the people who compiled the Holy Bible chose the things they wanted to put in the Holy Bible.

I would have preferred that they give us everything that was ever written, so I could now read it all for myself.

JS said, "Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors." As I have asked above, what was their motive? They wanted to hear that we must work for exaltation instead of salvation (all sins forgiven) being a freely given gift? They wanted to hear that men can never become gods? They wanted to hear and preserve that Biblical leaders did embarrassing things?

That doesnâ??t sound like what people want to hear to me.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

I use both cognitive and sensory perception/skills to know Truth. Cognitive perception (logic, for example) is very important - that is how I guard against the possibility of being wrong or deceived. That is how I can get outside of myself and confirm what I think and/or hear. God gave me a brain and I believe He wants me to use it. Cognitive thinking is important, but sensory perception is part of the picture too.

Paul - All of those things are important, I believe, but there is something else that I believe is necessary.

I believe we also need God to assure us, personally, to help us know what is true.

I don't believe the thinking is done when we have done all of the thinking.

There is a lot more that God can help us to think of.

Yes, I said sensory perception/skills are important (spiritual experiences). I was saying that we need cognitive skills as well. You have only supported what you are trying to teach me by your spiritual experiences. Could you please use cognitive skills too?

So your basis is yourself.

No.

You've said that, what, at least 3 or 4 times now, and every time I have shot it down.

My basis is God. My foundation is God. I know God, as well as myself.

We will have to disagree here. Since your basis is what you yourself perceive God to say and teach, I see that your basis is your perception.

If I am trying to teach you about gravity, I could show you a book about gravity. My basis in this case would be the book. If I dropped a ball, my basis would be experience - you saw the ball fall to the ground. If I introduce you to several people who explain gravity and their experiences to you, my basis would be the testimonies of the people. If I tell you I heard God say to me that there is gravity, my basis is ME until it can be shown beyond a reasonable doubt that God really spoke to me. And how would I try to show you that God spoke to me and what He said about gravity is true? I would start by trying to show you that what God said about gravity was true. I would do that by showing you the book, the real-life experience, and the people who have testimonies (and I would expect you to check the character of these people). I would show you everything that indicated that things always fall to the ground, not up. And, if people used to think that gravity meant that things fall up, I would show you why that was wrong.

All you have given me is that the voice you hear and â??knowâ? is Jesus tells you what you teach is true. You tell me that things fall up, not down, and people for thousands of years have been wrong . . . but your basis is only your claim that God speaks to you.

That is not enough for me. Iâ??ve met all sorts of people who think all sorts of things. Do you see what I mean? I can tell you God told me He was a daisy at one time - that doesnâ??t make it so.

I now agree with you again. I like it when this happens. Why can't we just do this more often?

You agree, yet you also expect me to believe you when you say God speaks to you. You believing God speaks to you doesnâ??t make it so.