How Can We Know When We Hear

[terrorista]

I agree. Shouldn't we all accept truth from whomever and wherever it comes from?

And btw, I only rely on the scriptures when I know God inspired them, so my source of truth is not the scriptures.

The only way that I know how to know what is true is from God... through Jesus Christ, the Mediator.

Jesus Christ is the way to know truth... He is the Way, and the Truth.

All of the responses so far have been totally fascinating to me.

As a believer in Jesus Christ, I know that He IS the Word, and I also know that BY the Word all things come into being.

Your quote makes me wonder what you consider "Scripture."

I'm a born again believer with the gift of deliverance and I counsel people every day with issues ranging from serious to life threatening in the demonic realm. For someone to scoff at the seriousness of that wich is being dealt with in this thread makes me question their salvation at all...But then, that shouldn't be news to you.

To answer the question, you discern demonic doctrine in two ways: 1, using the charismatic gift of discernement, which is given to you by the Holy Spirit, and 2, by "Testing the spirits." The biblical standard for testing the spirits can be found in Acts 17, where we read: they recieved the news eagerly, examining the scriptures to SEE IF THESE THINGS WERE SO.

No TRUE doctrine of God will exist outside of the realm of the Word. Scripture is your guideline. The WORD is the rock of your salvation.

[Freedom in Truth]

Office - A position of authority, duty, or trust given to a person. Your President is THE prophet for the LDS church. You may not use the word â??officeâ? but the meaning is the same. He is the main prophet for the church. This really isnâ??t important, though. We are just using different words.

I believe I am also trying to tell you something that you don't know. It isn't only a difference in words.

I would say seers and revelators are the same as prophets.

... probably because you really don't know what seers and revelators are.

How do you think seers and revelators are different from prophets?

Seers actually see what our Lord sees, from His perspective, usually with the use of Urim and Thummim. You can find out more about seers by searching our (LDS) archives at lds.org

Revelators declare what our Lord openly reveals to them, using the words that God uses... more than inspired thoughts all prophets interpret with God's help.

They are all pretty much the same thing, in that they are all forms of revelation, but they are slightly different forms of communication that God uses.

Can you support this Biblically?

Can you show me many, or any, place(s) in the NT where the disciples/apostles are called prophets?

I would rather teach you how to fish than to continue giving you fish.

Click on this link http://scriptures.lds.org/ and then use the Topical Guide to find all scriptures on prophets.

I have used the Topical Guide many times. I found no verses listed where NT disciples/apostles are called prophets. What do you find?

So - is it impossible for you to be deceived or wrong about whose voice you are hearing? You have said in the past that it is not possible for you to be wrong or deceived about recognizing Godâ??s voice. So are you saying that you CANNOT be wrong or deceived in knowing Godâ??s voice?

Yes, that is what I am saying.

There is nobody who can convince me I am not hearing from God, because God personally assures me that I am.

If you say that you are perfect in recognizing Godâ??s voice then I would think you could never be wrong or deceived, correct? If so, then how can you say you can be wrong or deceived?

I might become too prideful, thinking that I can know for myself without asking for God's assurance.

I might hear from Satan... he's very clever, that one... and then just assume it is God without asking for God's assurance.

If at any time I ever think I don't need to go to God, personally, I can then be wrong or deceived.

How could you mix up Godâ??s voice and Satanâ??s voice? You have said you cannot be wrong in knowing Godâ??s voice.

* Let me go back and clarify - you hear a voice. It tells you something. Then, to make sure the voice was Godâ??s you ask the voice if it is God. The voice either says it is God or it isnâ??t God, and that is how you know whose voice you have just heard. Is that correct?

You and I believe contradictory truths in many cases. If I tell you God teaches (and has taught) me then is God teaching one of us falsely?

I think it would help you to separate the different beliefs we have about different things.

I believe you and I do agree on a lot of issues.

And no, God never teaches anyone falsely.

I agree. God never teaches falsehoods - He only speaks Truth. Can you name something we agree on? (other than God speaks only Truth)

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

If I said God taught me that Jesusâ?? death covers ALL sin (not just original sin) and I need not do anything more for my sins that are not original sin - that teaching contradicts Mormon teaching that not all my sins are covered by Jesusâ?? death. How would you determine who really heard from God on this point?

Paul - By asking God, for myself, personally.

Why would I ever believe what you say about anything?

Again, you shouldnâ??t believe what I say. Why would I believe what you say? I shouldnâ??t. We need something much stronger than one personâ??s thoughts or opinions.

[Freedom in Truth]

Freedom In Truth,

Please acknowledge right here and now that I've been continuing to answer your questions.

What you just said about trying until you get an answer seems to show you don't know I have answered you... repeatedly.

If you can't hear what I'm saying I might as well stop answering you now.

Go ahead and try summarizing what I have already told you.

Clarification - Yes, you are addressing most of my questions. I appreciate your time and effort. But you donâ??t always give me answers that make sense. That is why I keep asking questions to clarify what you said.

You have said that you know you hear from God because the voice you hear identifies itself as God when you ask. Every time you hear something you ask the voice who it is so you will know if it is God, Satan (or other demon), or just you. If you hear something from God which does not line up with Mormon teachings you conform to Mormon teachings. Is that correct?

[Freedom in Truth]

Btw, I just scanned through this thread to see how long we have been discussing this, you and I, and I first responded to you in post #32, on page 2, and then in post #146 and #159 on page 8. You responded to me in post #170, on page 9, and again in posts #184 and #200 on page 10, and after post #206 on page 11 we started to have more of a discussionâ?¦ responding with more back and forth comments to each other... really getting into it after post #350 on page 18.

I was also surprised to see that you seem to be the predominant person posting in this thread.

â?¦ just about everybody is, or was, responding to your comments.

It seems that I am the only one who is still responding to you now.

Yes, you are right. Things changed after I came back from vacation - that might account for some of it. But itâ??s all good! You seem to understand how crucial the question of this thread is. That is very good. You seem willing to dig for answers. That is very good also. You also attempt to answer every question. That is rare in my experience. But, not everyone feels this way. That is O-K . . . we all have the gift of free choice. In the meantime, I am enjoying conversing with you and learning how you think. So, thank you, thank you, for still being willing to be here!

[Paul Ray]

We should desire the Giver and then receive the gifts He gives.

I agree.

Our focus should not be on the gifts but the Giver.

I agree... but still, according to Paul, "we should earnestly seek the best gifts."

If everyone has all gifts you would not â??needâ? anyone else, though you may â??wantâ? their fellowship. â??Wantingâ? isnâ??t â??needingâ?.

I could have also used the word "need". I will still need people even when/if I become perfect.

... even if they are also perfect.

I am not giving my opinion - I am giving you what scripture says.

You often give me your opinion, or your belief, on what you believe the scriptures are saying.

I can correctly interpret the scriptures, for myself, with God's personal assurance to me.

My opinion is worth nothing and that is why I give you something that does have worth - scripture. Wouldnâ??t you agree that scripture is worth more than what I think or what you think?

Yes, I agree with your statement.

Hearing is a sense. You â??hearâ? a voice.

I've never said I hear or have heard God voice with my physical ears.

God speaks to me, personally. I am spirit.

People have all kinds of spiritual experiences, and they are all quite sure that they know what they saw and what (who) they heard. Yet, many times their experiences contradict. I would be a fool to believe that God used to be a daisy just because someone was convinced they heard Godâ??s voice say this. And I would be a fool to believe God was once a man like us just because you are convinced you heard Godâ??s voice say this.

I agree.

I understand you are convinced you hear God (Jesus) and He teaches you, but others are just as convinced as you are that THEY are hearing from God. So, either you think you are somehow different from others (which enables you to hear God better), or you understand that it would be unwise for me to believe you merely based on what you think you hear. Which do you believe? And, if you think you hear God better than others, then why?

I believe it is unwise to believe what other people say just because they say so.

... unless those other people are God.

I know I hear from God, personally, because God personally assures me that I am.

I don't believe other people are just because, or even if, they say so.

... unless God personally assures me that they are.

If I pray about what you hear I might think I hear the same thing you do. But I already know what you believe so I can be influenced by that. Groups of people have been convinced they hear from God and they hear the same things - yet they can be and have been WRONG.

Yes, I know that. I agree with what you just said here.

I, along with traditional Christians, believe God the Father has NEVER been a man like us. Mormons believe God the Father HAS been a man like us. Somebody is right and somebody is wrong.

I agree. Who do you believe we should trust to give us the answer?

Somebody is hearing from the one true God and somebody is not. Since we all sincerely believe we have spiritual experiences and hear from God we need some way OUTSIDE of spiritual experiences of determining who is hearing the Truth.

There is no other way to hear from God, personally, than to hear from God, personally.

And we can still choose to believe other people, or even ourselves, if we really want to.

I have a way of determining Truth outside of spiritual experiences. (which means in addition to spiritual experiences) Do you have anything to stand on other than spiritual experiences?

Yes. I believe I'm as human as you are, and I'm still living on the same planet.

I believe I can do pretty much everything you and other people can do.

Why didnâ??t God teach you He used to be a man like you BEFORE you met the Mormon woman?

I never thought about asking God that question until it was later brought to my attention.

That is probably one of the reasons.

Why didn't God teach you about Jesus Christ until you heard about Jesus Christ?

... from whoever it was who first told you?

God didnâ??t teach you Mormon theology until you met a Mormon who told you about it. Is there a reason God didnâ??t teach you the Mormon idea of truth until you had met a Mormon?

How do you know anything until you know about it?

My assurance comes from my walk with God AND my standard. I know God loves me. I donâ??t always â??feelâ? His love, just as my child might not â??feelâ? my love when I discipline him. In these times I always have my standard that tells me over and over how much God loves me. So though I donâ??t â??feelâ? and I donâ??t always â??hearâ? it, I KNOW it.

My standard is God and His personal assurances to me.

I walk according to my light and knowledge from God.

Do you believe you are any different?

If you are not hearing from God then the voice you listen to is NOT going to tell you that I DO hear from God.

I can say the same thing to you. You know that, don't you?

I think you do, but there are still some things you don't know yet.

[jadams_4242]

there is no substitute for the "true" spirit!

false spirit will always leave us with a little voice within that says hey!

it always "saves" me when i listen to it. {the small voice within}

if we listen with the heart..it will not deceive us!...

jadams_4040

[Paul Ray]

Clarification - Yes, you are addressing most of my questions. I appreciate your time and effort. But you donâ??t always give me answers that make sense. That is why I keep asking questions to clarify what you said.

You have said that you know you hear from God because the voice you hear identifies itself as God when you ask. Every time you hear something you ask the voice who it is so you will know if it is God, Satan (or other demon), or just you. If you hear something from God which does not line up with Mormon teachings you conform to Mormon teachings. Is that correct?

Heh, my answers don't make sense to you, huh?

Okay, then let's switch roles for a while, starting now.

I'll ask you the same questions that you have been asking me.

... or better yet, just answer all the same questions you have asked me.

I think the main one is pretty much this one: (just so you don't have to go digging)

How do you know when and/or if you are receiving assurances from God?

I think that is the main question you have been asking.

You've been revising it often, using some other words, but it's still pretty much the same question.

And if it helps any at all, we can focus on a specific issue, like:

How do you know Joseph Smith was NOT a prophet of God?

How do you know it was and is God assuring you Joseph was NOT?

And please answer my questions while trying to make sense, or more sense, than I have made when answering your questions.

I think my answers do make sense. I think you understand what I'm saying.

It's just that you don't want to believe what I have been repeatedly telling you.

And yes, of course, you can believe what you want.

I believe God has been assuring me, and I trust God.

[Son]

All of the responses so far have been totally fascinating to me.

As a believer in Jesus Christ, I know that He IS the Word, and I also know that BY the Word all things come into being.

Your quote makes me wonder what you consider "Scripture."

I'm a born again believer with the gift of deliverance and I counsel people every day with issues ranging from serious to life threatening in the demonic realm. For someone to scoff at the seriousness of that wich is being dealt with in this thread makes me question their salvation at all...But then, that shouldn't be news to you.

To answer the question, you discern demonic doctrine in two ways: 1, using the charismatic gift of discernement, which is given to you by the Holy Spirit, and 2, by "Testing the spirits." The biblical standard for testing the spirits can be found in Acts 17, where we read: they recieved the news eagerly, examining the scriptures to SEE IF THESE THINGS WERE SO.

No TRUE doctrine of God will exist outside of the realm of the Word. Scripture is your guideline. The WORD is the rock of your salvation.

THe Word, would fill all the books of the world, if it were to be written. The word is truly that still small voice within you, The scriptures are meant to guide you to the word, which is Christ, which is administered by the Holy Spirit.

The Word is written in every human heart that desires to hear and heed its instruction, it is infinite.

[Paul Ray]

I pretty much agree with what Son just said, but I'd like to add a little bit to it.

The "Word" is Jesus Christ, Himself, according to John.

We could also say the word of God is everything God will tell us, through Jesus Christ.

We could also say the word of God is the Holy Bible, to an extent, but the Bible isn't EVERY word that God has given or can still give us.

I think it is wrong to say the Holy Bible is EVERY word that God has given, or can still give us.

And I try to live by every word that God gives to me.

[Freedom in Truth]

Do you? Do you believe Jesus is the same person as our Father in heaven?

That is not exactly what the Trinity doctrine says. We do not pretend to fully understand God - He is beyond our understanding. An ant with an ant-brain canâ??t understand man. Though we donâ??t fully understand God we DO know what He and Jesus are NOT.

From the Athanasian Creed -

Now this is the true Christian faith: We worship one God in three persons and three persons in one God, without mixing the persons or dividing the divine being. For each person -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- is distinct, but the deity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, equal in glory and coeternal in majesty. What the Father is, so is the Son, and so is the Holy Spirit.

The Father is uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated; The Father is eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three who are eternal, but there is one who is eternal, just as they are not three who are uncreated, nor three who are infinite, but there is one who is uncreated and one who is infinite.

In the same way the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, and the Holy Spirit is almighty. And yet they are not three who are almighty, but there is one who is almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord; yet they are not three Lords, but one Lord.

For just as Christian truth compels us to confess each person individually to be God and Lord, so the true Christian faith forbids us to speak of three Gods or three Lords. The Father is neither made not created, nor begotten of anyone. The Son is neither made nor created, but is begotten of the Father alone. The Holy Spirit is neither made nor created nor begotten, but proceeds from the Father and the Son. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

And within this Trinity none comes before or after; none is greater or inferior, but all three persons are coequal and coeternal, so that in every way, as stated before, all three persons are to be worshiped as one God and one God worshiped as three persons. Whoever wishes to be saved must have this conviction of the Trinity.

It is furthermore necessary for eternal salvation truly to believe that our Lord Jesus Christ also took on human flesh. Now this is the true Christian faith: We believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son, is both God and Man. He is God, eternally begotten from the nature of the Father, and he is man, born in time from the nature of his mother, fully God, fully man, with rational soul and human flesh, equal to the Father, as to his deity, less than the Father, as to his humanity; and though he is both God and Man, Christ is not two persons but one, one, not by changing the deity into flesh, but by taking the humanity into God; one, indeed, not by mixture of the natures, but by unity in one person.

For just as the reasonable soul and flesh are one human being, so God and man are one Christ, who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty, and from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. At his coming all people will rise again with their own bodies to answer for their personal deeds. Those who have done good will enter eternal life, but those who have done evil will go into everlasting fire.

In Post #199 you said â??I am saying that the God the OT prophets knew was the person we now know as Jesus Christ, because that is the only God who ever communicated with them. Since the fall of Adam and Eve, our Father has always spoken through His mediator, who is Jesus Christ.â?

Is it correct that anytime someone â??sawâ? God in the OT they were seeing Jesus?

So Jesus would be speaking in Isaiah 42-44, correct?

I've read that before. Did you have a point, or something?

Yup. I'm making sure we are on the same page. The LDS believe that Jesus and the Father are separate persons united ONLY in divine purpose, etc. Jesus is a god, the Holy Ghost is a god, and the Father is a god. Three gods united in divine purpose - the Godhead.

Right. I don't believe Jesus is gthe same person as our Father in heaven. But I do believe Jesus is God.

To clarify, you believe Jesus is A god, correct? God seems to be more of a title than a name.

Because I believe, and also know beyond doubt, that Jesus is also God, I do know God's voice.

It might help if you stop using the word God, for a moment, and refer to each specific person.

That is a great suggestion. Letâ??s use the words â??Father, Jesus, Holy Ghost (Spirit)â? instead of â??Godâ? to keep things clear, O-K?

So you know and have heard Jesusâ?? voice but not the Fatherâ??s voice, correct?

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

And you know the Holy Spiritâ??s voice, and you can tell the difference between Jesusâ?? voice and the Holy Spiritâ??s voice, correct?

Paul - Hmm. I'm not sure about that one. At this point I can't tell any difference.

Well, the HS is a different person than Jesus so wouldnâ??t they have different voices?

I think you've almost got it. They are all God, but they all aren't our Father in heaven.

We believe there are 3 distinct and separate persons.

Yes, 3 different persons. They are all GODS, correct? United GODS. 3 united Gods.

From LDS Gospel Library - Gospel Topics - Godhead

â??From the Prophet's account of the First Vision and from his other teachings, we know that the members of the Godhead are three separate beings. The Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bones, and the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit (see D&C 130:22).

Although the members of the Godhead are distinct beings with distinct roles, they are one in purpose and doctrine. They are perfectly united in bringing to pass Heavenly Father's divine plan of salvation.â?

Paul - Heh, you don't need to quote our doctrine to me. Just tell me what you think, personally.

Right now I am trying to understand what you think because at first your use of â??Godâ? was confusing to me and didnâ??t sound like Mormon doctrine. That is why I am checking to see if you agree with Mormon doctrine.

What I think is contained in the Athanasian Creed. I also know that God canâ??t be fully comprehended (ant-brain and man). If you would like to know more of what I think just ask!

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Do you have a little bit of Traditional Christian Trinitarian thinking left over from your pre-Mormon days?

Paul - Yes. I have simply added to what I once knew. But it is still LDS doctrine.

We believe we know what you know and what we know too.

Yes, it is Mormon doctrine. But no, Paul - I donâ??t believe you can combine Mormon doctrine on the Father, Jesus, and the HS with traditional Christian doctrine without changing traditional Christian doctrine. Adding information shouldnâ??t change information already known. New revelation shouldnâ??t conflict with already-known revelation. I would give examples, but first I need to understand what you think the Bible says about the Father. (my question on Isaiah above)

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

And why would Jesus call himself God to the OT prophets?

Quote - Paul

Because his, and our, Father, told him to. That is one reason.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Where is that written?

Paul - I just wrote it. Didn't you see it?

I probably read from someone else who knows it too, though.

I'll let you find it.

Where is it written that the Father told Jesus to call himself God to the OT prophets? What is you basis for this idea?

[Freedom in Truth]

All of the responses so far have been totally fascinating to me.

As a believer in Jesus Christ, I know that He IS the Word, and I also know that BY the Word all things come into being.

Your quote makes me wonder what you consider "Scripture."

I'm a born again believer with the gift of deliverance and I counsel people every day with issues ranging from serious to life threatening in the demonic realm. For someone to scoff at the seriousness of that wich is being dealt with in this thread makes me question their salvation at all...But then, that shouldn't be news to you.

To answer the question, you discern demonic doctrine in two ways: 1, using the charismatic gift of discernement, which is given to you by the Holy Spirit, and 2, by "Testing the spirits." The biblical standard for testing the spirits can be found in Acts 17, where we read: they recieved the news eagerly, examining the scriptures to SEE IF THESE THINGS WERE SO.

No TRUE doctrine of God will exist outside of the realm of the Word. Scripture is your guideline. The WORD is the rock of your salvation.

Yes! Yes! No TRUE doctrine of God will exist outside of the realm of the Word! Scripture is our guideline, our â??scaleâ?, our standard! The WORD is our Rock of salvation! That is how we can confirm what we hear in the spirit! Our God LOVES us SO much He gave us a way to â??test the spiritsâ?! That doesnâ??t mean we canâ??t or donâ??t hear spiritually - it just means we can test what we hear!

Jeremiah 17:9a The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure.

Our hearts ARE deceitful and we CAN be wrong . . . but we have been given a way to test what we hear! Praise God!

[Son]

Yes! Yes! No TRUE doctrine of God will exist outside of the realm of the Word! Scripture is our guideline, our â??scaleâ?, our standard! The WORD is our Rock of salvation! That is how we can confirm what we hear in the spirit! Our God LOVES us SO much He gave us a way to â??test the spiritsâ?! That doesnâ??t mean we canâ??t or donâ??t hear spiritually - it just means we can test what we hear!

Jeremiah 17:9a The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure.

Our hearts ARE deceitful and we CAN be wrong . . . but we have been given a way to test what we hear! Praise God!

Only according to ones understanding, which comes from heeding and doing.

[Freedom in Truth]

Heh, my answers don't make sense to you, huh?

Okay, then let's switch roles for a while, starting now.

I'll ask you the same questions that you have been asking me.

... or better yet, just answer all the same questions you have asked me.

I think the main one is pretty much this one: (just so you don't have to go digging)

How do you know when and/or if you are receiving assurances from God?

I think that is the main question you have been asking.

You've been revising it often, using some other words, but it's still pretty much the same question.

And if it helps any at all, we can focus on a specific issue, like:

How do you know Joseph Smith was NOT a prophet of God?

How do you know it was and is God assuring you Joseph was NOT?

And please answer my questions while trying to make sense, or more sense, than I have made when answering your questions.

I think my answers do make sense. I think you understand what I'm saying.

It's just that you don't want to believe what I have been repeatedly telling you.

And yes, of course, you can believe what you want.

I believe God has been assuring me, and I trust God.

I would LOVE to answer your questions (some of them my questions to you)! You know by now I take each post one by one and I am not yet to this post (I read ahead!). I do hope to get to this post before the day is over . . . but in the meantime would you please answer my question -

You have said that you know you hear from God because the voice you hear identifies itself as God when you ask. Every time you hear something you ask the voice who it is so you will know if it is God, Satan (or other demon), or just you. If you hear something from God which does not line up with Mormon teachings you conform to Mormon teachings. Is that correct?

It was kind of an important question for me. (though replace â??Godâ? with â??Jesusâ? as per our recent posts)

Thanks so much for bearing with me. I am finally just beginning to feel that I am starting to understand your thinking.

Back to where I was - Freedom in Truth

[terrorista]

Yes! Yes! No TRUE doctrine of God will exist outside of the realm of the Word! Scripture is our guideline, our â??scaleâ?, our standard! The WORD is our Rock of salvation! That is how we can confirm what we hear in the spirit! Our God LOVES us SO much He gave us a way to â??test the spiritsâ?! That doesnâ??t mean we canâ??t or donâ??t hear spiritually - it just means we can test what we hear!

Jeremiah 17:9a The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure.

Our hearts ARE deceitful and we CAN be wrong . . . but we have been given a way to test what we hear! Praise God!

Absolutely, our hearts are above ALL deceitful....but God has given us ALL we need as believers to discern the truth from the lies.

This ties into my fascination with the "mormon challenge" to ask God if the BOM be true. So many people genuinely ask Him and get a yes. But do they know to test the spirit? It's incredible to me that so many do not bother with this hugely important biblical step.

[Paul Ray]

We do not pretend to fully understand God - He is beyond our understanding. An ant with an ant-brain canâ??t understand man. Though we donâ??t fully understand God we DO know what He and Jesus are NOT.

Who is this "we" you speak of. I think some of us know more than some others of us do.

All of "we" do not agree on everything.

From the Athanasian Creed -

Now this is the true Christian faith: We worship one God in three persons and three persons in one God, without mixing the persons or dividing the divine being. For each person -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- is distinct, but the deity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, equal in glory and coeternal in majesty. What the Father is, so is the Son, and so is the Holy Spirit.

The Father is uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated; The Father is eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three who are eternal, but there is one who is eternal, just as they are not three who are uncreated, nor three who are infinite, but there is one who is uncreated and one who is infinite.

In the same way the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, and the Holy Spirit is almighty. And yet they are not three who are almighty, but there is one who is almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord; yet they are not three Lords, but one Lord.

For just as Christian truth compels us to confess each person individually to be God and Lord, so the true Christian faith forbids us to speak of three Gods or three Lords. The Father is neither made not created, nor begotten of anyone. The Son is neither made nor created, but is begotten of the Father alone. The Holy Spirit is neither made nor created nor begotten, but proceeds from the Father and the Son. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

And within this Trinity none comes before or after; none is greater or inferior, but all three persons are coequal and coeternal, so that in every way, as stated before, all three persons are to be worshiped as one God and one God worshiped as three persons. Whoever wishes to be saved must have this conviction of the Trinity.

It is furthermore necessary for eternal salvation truly to believe that our Lord Jesus Christ also took on human flesh. Now this is the true Christian faith: We believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son, is both God and Man. He is God, eternally begotten from the nature of the Father, and he is man, born in time from the nature of his mother, fully God, fully man, with rational soul and human flesh, equal to the Father, as to his deity, less than the Father, as to his humanity; and though he is both God and Man, Christ is not two persons but one, one, not by changing the deity into flesh, but by taking the humanity into God; one, indeed, not by mixture of the natures, but by unity in one person.

For just as the reasonable soul and flesh are one human being, so God and man are one Christ, who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty, and from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. At his coming all people will rise again with their own bodies to answer for their personal deeds. Those who have done good will enter eternal life, but those who have done evil will go into everlasting fire.

Please explain why you just quoted from the Athanasian Creed?

Does what those men said have any value to you, personally?

In Post #199 you said â??I am saying that the God the OT prophets knew was the person we now know as Jesus Christ, because that is the only God who ever communicated with them. Since the fall of Adam and Eve, our Father has always spoken through His mediator, who is Jesus Christ.â?

Is it correct that anytime someone â??sawâ? God in the OT they were seeing Jesus?

After the fall, yes. Before the fall Adam and Eve talked with our Father, personally.

[b\So Jesus would be speaking in Isaiah 42-44, correct?

Yes, the person who spoke to us (all of mankind) after the fall of Adam and Eve, was the person we now know as Jesus Christ, who was acting under the direction, and in name (or authority) of our Father who is in heaven.

The LDS believe that Jesus and the Father are separate persons united ONLY in divine purpose, etc. Jesus is a god, the Holy Ghost is a god, and the Father is a god. Three gods united in divine purpose - the Godhead.

We believe there is only one God, and we know of 3 persons who are all God.

Our Father is God, Jesus Christ is also God, and the Holy Spirit is also God... the one God.

I usually try to explain this by using the analogy of Man.

I am Man, you are Man, each one of us is Man... the one Man.

If there is another being in the universe who is exactly like us, that being is the same being as Man.

To clarify, you believe Jesus is A god, correct?

I believe it would be more accurate to say that Jesus Christ is one of the persons who is God.

God seems to be more of a title than a name.

I think the word God has multiple meanings... I use the word AND a lot more than the word OR.

God is the word we usually use to refer to our Father in heaven... but our Father is not the only person who is God.

Jesus Christ is also God, and so is the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit), but neither one of those persons is our Father in heaven.

I, personally, define God as the ultimate being in the universe... at least as far as Man is concerned.

There is no other being more glorious than God is... God is the ultimate being.

Letâ??s use the words â??Father, Jesus, Holy Ghost (Spirit)â? instead of â??Godâ? to keep things clear, O-K?

Okay. I'll try that. If ever in doubt about who I am referring to, just ask me.

So you know and have heard Jesusâ?? voice but not the Fatherâ??s voice, correct?

Yes, in a sense. But I know that when I am hearing from Jesus I am also hearing from our Father.

I know they both work in harmony, together. They are one, or united, in purpose.

Well, the HS is a different person than Jesus so wouldnâ??t they have different voices?

As I told you before, I can't tell any difference between the voice of Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

I just know that it is God I am hearing from, personally.

Yes, 3 different persons. They are all GODS, correct? United GODS. 3 united Gods.

In a sense I suppose you could say that, yes. But I would personally prefer to say that:

Yes, 3 different persons. They are all GOD, correct? United GOD. 3 united persons who are God.

Right now I am trying to understand what you think because at first your use of â??Godâ? was confusing to me and didnâ??t sound like Mormon doctrine. That is why I am checking to see if you agree with Mormon doctrine.

Okey dokey.

What I think is contained in the Athanasian Creed.

I believe the Athanasian Creed, itself, is a very confusing bunch of words.

I can agree with it, to a certain extent, but I would personally choose to use different words to convey what I think they were probably thinking... considering my belief that they were trying to convey what the Holy Bible says about God.

I also know that God canâ??t be fully comprehended (ant-brain and man).

I agree that God can't be fully comprehended by Man, right now, but I believe I do understand who and what God really is. I am learning from God, personally.

If you would like to know more of what I think just ask!

Okay, I'll keep that in mind. Right now I believe I pretty much understand the doctrine you accept because I was once in pretty much the same situation you are in. I was once a member of a "Protestant" church, and I think they're all pretty much in agreement. And I also agree, to a certain extent, although I believe I now have an even greater understanding.

I once believed the Holy Bible was the only record we had from people who God inspired to write to us, and I now know that God has given us a LOT more.

I donâ??t believe you can combine Mormon doctrine on the Father, Jesus, and the HS with traditional Christian doctrine without changing traditional Christian doctrine.

I believe I am proof to the contrary, my friend.

Adding information shouldnâ??t change information already known.

And I do not believe that it does... aside from adding more details. That is a change, in a sense.

New revelation shouldnâ??t conflict with already-known revelation.

And I do not believe that it does... we just need God to help us intrepret His revelations.

I would give examples, but first I need to understand what you think the Bible says about the Father. (my question on Isaiah above)

Ask me a more direct question, please. Let me know exactly what you are thinking.

Where is it written that the Father told Jesus to call himself God to the OT prophets? What is your basis for this idea?

Where is it written that the OT prophets were told who to call God?

Where is it written that Jesus and our Father are the same person?

Where is it written that Jesus had glory with our Father before Jesus was born on this Earth?

Search the scriptures, and ask God for His assurances, and I'm sure you'll find all of His answers.

[Paul Ray]

You have said that you know you hear from God because the voice you hear identifies itself as God when you ask. Every time you hear something you ask the voice who it is so you will know if it is God, Satan (or other demon), or just you. If you hear something from God which does not line up with Mormon teachings you conform to Mormon teachings. Is that correct?

I would choose to use some different words than the words you just used to tell me what I have told you, but I think I understand your final question, and my answer to that question is No.

If I hear something from God, and I know that I am hearing from God, I then know what God thinks on that particular issue and I then add that to all of my knowledge that I have received from God... whether anyone else agrees with it or not.

I don't conform to Mormon teachings if God tells me Mormon teachings are not true.

I only accept "Mormonism" because God has told me that "Mormonism" is true... even more so that what is known by the world as "Christianity".

According to my knowledge from God, Mormonism is a better version of Christianity.

Christianity also has a lot of good things going for it, but Mormonism is even better.

... according to what God has told me, personally.

[Neighbor]

I would choose to use some different words than the words you just used to tell me what I have told you, but I think I understand your final question, and my answer to that question is No.

If I hear something from God, and I know that I am hearing from God, I then know what God thinks on that particular issue and I then add that to all of my knowledge that I have received from God... whether anyone else agrees with it or not.

I don't conform to Mormon teachings if God tells me Mormon teachings are not true.

I only accept "Mormonism" because God has told me that "Mormonism" is true... even more so that what is known by the world as "Christianity".

According to my knowledge from God, Mormonism is a better version of Christianity.

Christianity also has a lot of good things going for it, but Mormonism is even better.

... according to what God has told me, personally.

The best version of Christianity is the one which knows Jesus best.

[Paul Ray]

The best version of Christianity is the one which knows Jesus best.

Yeppers. I agree.

[Hammer]

The best version of Christianity is the one which knows Jesus best.

True as far as it goes. But does it go far enough? We have already had the scripture quoted that even Satan and his demons believe in Christ and assuredly, they also know Him better than we. They have no veil. So is knowing Christ the best, the best version of Christianity? Is it enough?

[Paul Ray]

True as far as it goes. But does it go far enough? We have already had the scripture quoted that even Satan and his demons believe in Christ and assuredly, they also know Him better than we. They have no veil. So is knowing Christ the best, the best version of Christianity? Is it enough?

While I agree that Satan and his followers (on the other side of the veil) know who Jesus Christ is, from a certain perspective, I don't agree that they truly know who He is.

You can't get a true description of Jesus Christ by asking Satan what Satan thinks about Jesus.

... they have a distorted view of who, and what, Jesus is.

edited to add:

You can't get a true description of anyone by talking to their enemies, otherwise their enemies wouldn't be their enemies. But enemies can know what their enemies look like, and some of the things they have done.

... and as long as nobody distorts the real truth, it's all good.

[Freedom in Truth]

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Our focus should not be on the gifts but the Giver.

Paul - I agree... but still, according to Paul, "we should earnestly seek the best gifts."

Yes - but Paul was writing to a group of believers -

1 Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christâ??their Lord and ours:

He told the group to seek the gifts. That means to me that the group as a whole should seek the gifts, not that every individual should seek all the gifts. If Paul had meant that every individual should seek every gift then he would not have said that we receive different gifts as the spirit determines. He would not have used the analogy of the body. This is why I hold to my interpretation - this is how I support it. How do you support your interpretation?

I could have also used the word "need". I will still need people even when/if I become perfect.

... even if they are also perfect.

If you had all gifts you wouldnâ??t need other people to be the complete â??body of Christâ? on earth - you could do it all yourself. The context here is the goal of the â??common goodâ? (1 Corinthians 12:7). The context here is not just liking to be with other people.

You often give me your opinion, or your belief, on what you believe the scriptures are saying.

I can correctly interpret the scriptures, for myself, with God's personal assurance to me.

That would be â??Jesusâ??â? personal assurance to you, correct?

I am asking you to support your interpretation of scripture. I am asking you to explain Jesusâ?? teaching to you.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

My opinion is worth nothing and that is why I give you something that does have worth - scripture. Wouldnâ??t you agree that scripture is worth more than what I think or what you think?

Paul - Yes, I agree with your statement.

We agree. That is why I ask you to support your teachings with scripture.

I've never said I hear or have heard God voice with my physical ears.

God speaks to me, personally. I am spirit.

You are spirit AND you also have a corporeal body. I will agree that it is hard to describe â??hearingâ? spiritually. When Jesus tells you something you are not using cognitive skills, correct? You somehow spiritually sense the message. You kind of â??spiritually hear.â?

I believe it is unwise to believe what other people say just because they say so.

... unless those other people are God.

I know I hear from God, personally, because God personally assures me that I am.

I don't believe other people are just because, or even if, they say so.

... unless God personally assures me that they are.

We are back to your assertion that you hear a voice that assures you that he is Jesus. You say your source is Jesus and I say your source is yourself - your discernment of the voice you hear. I am not sure you understand my thinking here.

Letâ??s say you are married and your wife HATES peanuts and is deathly allergic to them. She canâ??t stand the smell of them, the look of them, and she would have to be rushed to the hospital if she ate one.

I am friends with your wife and I call her often. You know this. One day I tell you I called your wife and she told me she loves peanuts and she is not allergic to them. I asked her if she was joking - she said she wasnâ??t joking. I asked her to identify herself - she told me the correct name - the name of your wife. (I did think I recognized her voice but I asked her name just to be sure.) You know I do not lie.

You then call your wife and ask her if she is allergic to peanuts. She says she is and she absolutely HATES them as well. She says she doesnâ??t change. You come back to me and tell me I am wrong - your wife is allergic to peanuts. I tell you I am sure I talked to your wife. After all, I asked the one I called to identify themselves and they gave your wifeâ??s name. So what do you believe? Do you believe I spoke with your wife? Perhaps your wife gave me additional information that she hasnâ??t told you yet? I am convinced I spoke with your wife - she even identified herself. But until you can verify apart from MY TESTIMONY that I did indeed speak to your wife, your source for the information I am giving you is ME. You should ask me to verify my information - can I show you that your wifeâ??s number was recently dialed by my phone? Was anyone with your wife and maybe overheard what she said to me? Can a doctor verify that your wife is still allergic to peanuts? In any case, I hope you will not believe that I spoke to your wife just because I believe I have and because I say she identified herself. I hope you can see that someone canâ??t both be allergic to peanuts and not allergic to peanuts. Do you see this?

Maybe the question for us now is whether or not Mormon information conflicts with traditional Christian information.

Again I ask â??if you think you hear God better than others, then why?

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

I, along with traditional Christians, believe God the Father has NEVER been a man like us. Mormons believe God the Father HAS been a man like us. Somebody is right and somebody is wrong.

Paul - I agree. Who do you believe we should trust to give us the answer?

First, it sounds like we agree that traditional Christianity and Mormonism are in conflict over whether or not God the Father used to be a man. Therefore, Mormonism didnâ??t just â??addâ? to traditional Christian teaching - it instead introduced a CHANGE concerning the Father.

We should trust God to reveal Truth to us. We should not trust this person or that person who KNOWS he hears from Jesus. And we should not trust OURSELVES either, for we can deceive ourselves and be mistaken. We should not trust anything we hear until we â??test the spiritsâ? and confirm what we have heard. We confirm what we hear with the standard, the scale God has so graciously given to us. What we hear spiritually we must test.

I guess your test is to ask the spirit who he is? If that is true, do you think this is a good test? It would only be a good test if spirits never, ever lie and if you never, ever are deceived or wrong.

I love one of the ways God speaks to me. When I read scripture suddenly some of the words jump off the page into me! God uses scripture to speak to each of us - we read with the HS and we ask God to speak through the pages to us. God may have said to so-and-so â??I will never leave you or forsake youâ?, but when those words leap off the page and come alive He is saying â??I will never leave you or forsake youâ? to ME!

I believe there are at least parts of the Bible that you believe are Godâ??s words. Do you ever study them, think on them, pray about them?

There is no other way to hear from God, personally, than to hear from God, personally.

And we can still choose to believe other people, or even ourselves, if we really want to.

But we can hear from God corporately too! And we can hear from God through His Word. We can hear from God when seeing something beautiful in nature or by watching someone inspired by God doing something. There are lots of ways to hear from God, not just one (sensing and â??hearingâ? a voice inside of us).

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

I have a way of determining Truth outside of spiritual experiences. (which means in addition to spiritual experiences) Do you have anything to stand on other than spiritual experiences?

Paul - Yes. I believe I'm as human as you are, and I'm still living on the same planet.

I believe I can do pretty much everything you and other people can do.

What do you stand on other than spiritual experiences?

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Why didnâ??t God teach you He used to be a man like you BEFORE you met the Mormon woman?

Paul - I never thought about asking God that question until it was later brought to my attention.

That is probably one of the reasons.

Why didn't God teach you about Jesus Christ until you heard about Jesus Christ?

... from whoever it was who first told you?

I would think that it would be very important for Jesus to teach you that God the Father used to be a man like you, yet Jesus didnâ??t until you met a Mormon.

To make a long story short - I grew up with basic Biblical knowledge, like you probably did, and I would say I had a child-like trust in God. In my teen years I doubted and rebelled and in my college years I checked out many different worldviews concerning the meaning of life. I came back to the God of traditional Christianity because I had to admit that it was the only belief that made sense. (I think I always believed in God - I just didnâ??t know which worldview/religion spoke the truth about Him.) I started praying, studying, doing my best to obey, walking with God and with others who are walking with God. Through the years my understanding and relationship have deepened day by day.

So to answer your question - I was taught about Jesus and the Father from a young age. I was taught basic Truth from the beginning. But it is different for you - you were at first taught that God was never a man like us (as a member of the Church of Christ). You were taught that there was ONE God - only ONE God. You heard from Jesus (God) yet He didnâ??t teach you differently - He didnâ??t correct your false thinking. That doesnâ??t make sense to me.

Knowing who the Father is, who Jesus is, who the HS is, and who YOU are is VERY important. You canâ??t know the Father, Jesus, or the HS very well if you donâ??t understand who YOU are in comparison.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

God didnâ??t teach you Mormon theology until you met a Mormon who told you about it. Is there a reason God didnâ??t teach you the Mormon idea of truth until you had met a Mormon?

Paul - How do you know anything until you know about it?

Thatâ??s not what I asked. I want to know why, when Jesus was teaching you and speaking to you He didnâ??t teach you Mormon truth. You donâ??t know anything until you are taught, right? So why wasnâ??t Jesus teaching you truth? Was He instead teaching you traditional Christian concepts - concepts that clash with Mormon doctrine?

My standard is God and His personal assurances to me.

I walk according to my light and knowledge from God.

Do you believe you are any different?

Yes - I learn from God in many ways. I also have a way to â??test the spiritsâ? - those things I personally hear. You seem to test spirits by asking them who they are. I am sure IF Satan ever speaks to you he is quite happy to tell you he is Satan, for Satan never lies! Maybe he sometimes says he is Satan and sometimes he says he is Jesus just so you wonâ??t get suspicious. IF you are just hearing yourself or you are imagining hearing a voice other than yourself, you (like all of us) would want to be right. Many of us yearn to hear Jesus and to have spiritual encounters/experiences. And we can. But we must test the spirits.

If Jesus personally teaches you, then why do you need the Quad and your leaders? Wouldnâ??t it be far better to learn directly from the Source? Whatâ??s the use of all your scriptures and leaders?

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

If you are not hearing from God then the voice you listen to is NOT going to tell you that I DO hear from God.

Paul - I can say the same thing to you. You know that, don't you?

I think you do, but there are still some things you don't know yet.

Yes, you can say the same to me. That is why we need something other than our opinions, feelings, etc. If there are some things you think I donâ??t know then I would ask why you havenâ??t mentioned them yet. If you are referring to the priesthood, then letâ??s talk about it. Letâ??s talk about whatever it is that leads you to believe you have a special spiritual connection to Jesus.

there is no substitute for the "true" spirit!

false spirit will always leave us with a little voice within that says hey!

it always "saves" me when i listen to it. {the small voice within}

if we listen with the heart..it will not deceive us!...

jadams_4040

Jeremiah 17:9a The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure.

Godâ??s Word says our heart CAN deceive us. We must test the spirits - how do YOU do this?

[Paul Ray]

Yes - but Paul was writing to a group of believers -

1 Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christâ??their Lord and ours:

He told the group to seek the gifts. That means to me that the group as a whole should seek the gifts, not that every individual should seek all the gifts. If Paul had meant that every individual should seek every gift then he would not have said that we receive different gifts as the spirit determines. He would not have used the analogy of the body. This is why I hold to my interpretation - this is how I support it. How do you support your interpretation?

I support my interpretation with the understanding God has given me, which helps me to understand that while Paul was speaking to everyone in a group, collectively, he was also speaking to each person in that group, individually.

It is God who determines which gifts to give us, both individually and collectively, according to His purposes.

The gift of prophecy helps me, individually, and the people I associate with, collectively.

If you had all gifts you wouldnâ??t need other people to be the complete â??body of Christâ? on earth - you could do it all yourself. The context here is the goal of the â??common goodâ? (1 Corinthians 12:7). The context here is not just liking to be with other people.

I know it isnâ??t â??justâ? that, but it is that, also. The common good is also good for me, and the whole group.

That would be â??Jesusâ??â? personal assurance to you, correct?

Okay, one more time. All I know right now is that it is God who is giving me the assurance Iâ??m talking about.

I don't know if it is Jesus Christ, specifically, or the Holy Ghost (or the Holy Spirit), specifically.

I do know it isnâ??t our Father in heaven, because I know our Father communicates to us through Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ (usually) coomunicates to us through the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit)

I just know it is God, because of the way God communicates with me and lets me know He is God.

â?¦ without this assurance, I wouldnâ??t believe the Holy Bible, or that Jesus is the Christ.

You will have to know what I'm talking about to be able to know what I'm talking about.

I am asking you to support your interpretation of scripture.

I support my interpretation of scripture by knowing it is God who tells me how to interpret scripture.

I am asking you to explain Jesusâ?? teaching to you.

I am trying to do that by explaining what I know and believe.

You are spirit AND you also have a corporeal body. I will agree that it is hard to describe â??hearingâ? spiritually. When Jesus tells you something you are not using cognitive skills, correct? You somehow spiritually sense the message. You kind of â??spiritually hear.â?

I am using my cognitive skills, but not only my cognitive skills.

I spiritually sense or hear the message in my spirit, and I use my other faculties also.

We are back to your assertion that you hear a voice that assures you that he is Jesus. You say your source is Jesus and I say your source is yourself - your discernment of the voice you hear. I am not sure you understand my thinking here.

I think I understand what youâ??re thinking.

I think you're thinking that I'm talking to myself, or another person, but not God.

I am telling you, and have told you, that I know it is God talking to me.

You can believe what you want to believe, and say what you want to say.

I will trust God, as my guide. And I suggest that you also do the same.

Letâ??s say you are married and your wife HATES peanuts and is deathly allergic to them. She canâ??t stand the smell of them, the look of them, and she would have to be rushed to the hospital if she ate one.

I am friends with your wife and I call her often. You know this. One day I tell you I called your wife and she told me she loves peanuts and she is not allergic to them. I asked her if she was joking - she said she wasnâ??t joking. I asked her to identify herself - she told me the correct name - the name of your wife. (I did think I recognized her voice but I asked her name just to be sure.)

Okay, I think I am following you so far. So far, so good.

You know I do not lie.

How do I know you do not lie? Maybe youâ??ve never lied to me before, but you might lie to me later.

How would I know whether or not to believe anything you ever tell me?

I think there's a way, and that way is to have God personally vouch for your honesty.

You then call your wife and ask her if she is allergic to peanuts. She says she is and she absolutely HATES them as well. She says she doesnâ??t change. You come back to me and tell me I am wrong - your wife is allergic to peanuts. I tell you I am sure I talked to your wife. After all, I asked the one I called to identify themselves and they gave your wifeâ??s name. So what do you believe?

I would ask my wife and believe what my wife tells me.

She would know better than anyone else whether or not she likes or hates peanuts.

Do you believe I spoke with your wife?

No, not in that case, because you don't agree with her. I might believe you believe you did, though.

Maybe my daughter answered the phone, and she has the same name, and she is the one who said she likes peanuts.

Perhaps your wife gave me additional information that she hasnâ??t told you yet? I am convinced I spoke with your wife - she even identified herself. But until you can verify apart from MY TESTIMONY that I did indeed speak to your wife, your source for the information I am giving you is ME.

True. But I wouldnâ??t just believe what you said about my wife.

I would ask my wife if what you said about her was true.

You should ask me to verify my information - can I show you that your wifeâ??s number was recently dialed by my phone? Was anyone with your wife and maybe overheard what she said to me? Can a doctor verify that your wife is still allergic to peanuts?

Maybe, if I wanted to know why you believed you had heard from my wife, maybe I should do that.

But I can just ask my wife what she knows. I donâ??t need to verify what my wife knows through you or your sources.

In any case, I hope you will not believe that I spoke to your wife just because I believe I have and because I say she identified herself. I hope you can see that someone canâ??t both be allergic to peanuts and not allergic to peanuts. Do you see this?

Give me some credit, will you. Do you really think that I am stupid?

Of course I can see what youâ??re saying.

You're trying to tell me that something can't be false and true at the same time.

And youâ??re also trying to come up with some way to tell me I may not be hearing from God.

Maybe the question for us now is whether or not Mormon information conflicts with traditional Christian information.

I crossed that bridge a long time ago. I already know that it doesnâ??t conflict.

Iâ??m willing to help you out, though, if you need some help to see that it doesnâ??t.

Again I ask â??if you think you hear God better than others, then why?

I've never said that I think I can hear God better than other people.

I've simply been saying that I know how to tell when God is talking to me.

First, it sounds like we agree that traditional Christianity and Mormonism are in conflict over whether or not God the Father used to be a man. Therefore, Mormonism didnâ??t just â??addâ? to traditional Christian teaching - it instead introduced a CHANGE concerning the Father.

First of all, letâ??s draw a distinction between â??traditional Christian teachingâ? and what God has taught through all of His messengers.

What has God said about this issue?

Do you just automatically believe what some men say about God, or do you ask God yourself?

How do you know the Holy Bible is true, and not just the words of some men?

And how do you know the Athanasian Creed is true, and not just the words of some men?

We should trust God to reveal Truth to us. We should not trust this person or that person who KNOWS he hears from Jesus. And we should not trust OURSELVES either, for we can deceive ourselves and be mistaken. We should not trust anything we hear until we â??test the spiritsâ? and confirm what we have heard. We confirm what we hear with the standard, the scale God has so graciously given to us. What we hear spiritually we must test.

Yes, and the test I use is to ask God, personally, and trust what God tells me, personally.

I don't trust anyone else unless God helps me to know they are telling the truth.

I guess your test is to ask the spirit who he is? If that is true, do you think this is a good test? It would only be a good test if spirits never, ever lie and if you never, ever are deceived or wrong.

Yes, I know that, and yes I believe God never, ever tells a lie to anyone.

I love one of the ways God speaks to me. When I read scripture suddenly some of the words jump off the page into me! God uses scripture to speak to each of us - we read with the HS and we ask God to speak through the pages to us. God may have said to so-and-so â??I will never leave you or forsake youâ?, but when those words leap off the page and come alive He is saying â??I will never leave you or forsake youâ? to ME!

Is it God speaking to you, personally? Or do you simply believe what someone wrote down in a book?

If it is God, personally, then I think we agree on our method.

I believe there are at least parts of the Bible that you believe are Godâ??s words. Do you ever study them, think on them, pray about them?

Yes. Somehow I get the sense that you think that I may not.

I was once in a church, like you are, before I become a â??Mormonâ?.

You're not telling me something I don't know about.

I'm trying to tell you about something you don't know that I do know about.

But we can hear from God corporately too! And we can hear from God through His Word. We can hear from God when seeing something beautiful in nature or by watching someone inspired by God doing something. There are lots of ways to hear from God, not just one (sensing and â??hearingâ? a voice inside of us).

I think it basically boils down to God speaking to us, personally, if we are hearing from God, personally.

I can hear from God when Iâ??m reading, and writing, and walking, and chewing gum, and talking.

What do you stand on other than spiritual experiences?

Nothing. Everything I stand on comes by a spiritual experience to me.

To make a long story short - I grew up with basic Biblical knowledge, like you probably did, and I would say I had a child-like trust in God. In my teen years I doubted and rebelled and in my college years I checked out many different worldviews concerning the meaning of life. I came back to the God of traditional Christianity because I had to admit that it was the only belief that made sense. (I think I always believed in God - I just didnâ??t know which worldview/religion spoke the truth about Him.) I started praying, studying, doing my best to obey, walking with God and with others who are walking with God. Through the years my understanding and relationship have deepened day by day.

Pretty much the same for me.

So to answer your question - I was taught about Jesus and the Father from a young age. I was taught basic Truth from the beginning. But it is different for you - you were at first taught that God was never a man like us (as a member of the Church of Christ).

No, I wasnâ??t. I wasnâ??t taught anything about that issue while I was a member of the Church of Christ.

It never came up, so I never thought about it until it was brought up by someone who was a â??Mormonâ?.

I then asked God about it, and then God told me about what I then learned about it.

You were taught that there was ONE God - only ONE God.

Only one God, but 3 different persons who are all Godâ?¦ which is the same thing I believe now.

I havenâ??t changed my beliefs about this issue, at all.

You heard from Jesus (God) yet He didnâ??t teach you differently - He didnâ??t correct your false thinking. That doesnâ??t make sense to me.

There is nothing false about it. We are pretty much in agreement on this issue. Canâ??t you see that?

Knowing who the Father is, who Jesus is, who the HS is, and who YOU are is VERY important. You canâ??t know the Father, Jesus, or the HS very well if you donâ??t understand who YOU are in comparison.

And I do. I am a child of God. Who do you think you are?

Do you not know you are also a child of God... our Father in heaven?

I want to know why, when Jesus was teaching you and speaking to you He didnâ??t teach you Mormon truth. You donâ??t know anything until you are taught, right? So why wasnâ??t Jesus teaching you truth? Was He instead teaching you traditional Christian concepts - concepts that clash with Mormon doctrine?

God usually only gives me His assurance concerning what I ask Him, and I never had asked Him about some â??Mormonâ? points of doctrine. I had never heard some of the thoughts that â??Mormonsâ? had until I met a â??Mormonâ?. And then when I did I asked God to assure me of what is the truth.

If Jesus personally teaches you, then why do you need the Quad and your leaders? Wouldnâ??t it be far better to learn directly from the Source? Whatâ??s the use of all your scriptures and leaders?

The scriptures and spoken words from Godâ??s authorized representatives were inspired by other people who knew and know God, personally, and they help me to have thoughts I might not have had without them. Some people still ask questions I havenâ??t even thought about yet, so I can still learn a lot by learning from themâ?¦ once God assures me that they are truly His authorized representatives and telling me the truth.

Yes, you can say the same to me. That is why we need something other than our opinions, feelings, etc. If there are some things you think I donâ??t know then I would ask why you havenâ??t mentioned them yet.

Because itâ??s not my job to teach you everything I know.

I think you should ask God for His assurance to help you know the truth... instead of asking me to answer all of your questions.

And maybe it is now time for you to meet with some official missionaries of my (LDS) Church.

I' not the only person on this planet who believes as I do. There are other LDS you can learn from.

If you are referring to the priesthood, then letâ??s talk about it. Letâ??s talk about whatever it is that leads you to believe you have a special spiritual connection to Jesus.

God is my source of knowledge, and you donâ??t need me to introduce you.

Godâ??s Word says our heart CAN deceive us. We must test the spirits - how do YOU do this?

Iâ??ve already asked God to give me a new heart, God did, and with it, I trust God completely.

How do you do it? Do you simply trust some books and your personal interpretation of those books?

[Neighbor]

True as far as it goes. But does it go far enough? We have already had the scripture quoted that even Satan and his demons believe in Christ and assuredly, they also know Him better than we. They have no veil. So is knowing Christ the best, the best version of Christianity? Is it enough?

Surely neither Satan nor his angels have the mind of Christ. Yet those of Christ have the mind of Christ and the desire to do whatsoever He said to do. There is knowing who He is and there is understanding which can only come from being a disciple. "They" of Satan don't 'know' Jesus as those of Christ do. As Jesus said, more blessed than Thomas are those who - not seeing Him - believe on Him through their word. They testified to us of what they saw and heard so that we also might believe as they - for the same reasons and in the same thing.

[Freedom in Truth]

Heh, my answers don't make sense to you, huh?

Okay, then let's switch roles for a while, starting now.

I'll ask you the same questions that you have been asking me.

... or better yet, just answer all the same questions you have asked me.

I think the main one is pretty much this one: (just so you don't have to go digging)

How do you know when and/or if you are receiving assurances from God?

I think that is the main question you have been asking.

You've been revising it often, using some other words, but it's still pretty much the same question.

And if it helps any at all, we can focus on a specific issue, like:

How do you know Joseph Smith was NOT a prophet of God?

How do you know it was and is God assuring you Joseph was NOT?

And please answer my questions while trying to make sense, or more sense, than I have made when answering your questions.

I think my answers do make sense. I think you understand what I'm saying.

It's just that you don't want to believe what I have been repeatedly telling you.

And yes, of course, you can believe what you want.

I believe God has been assuring me, and I trust God.

Paul, when two people are talking and one or more of them is failing to understand the other it is not necessarily one personâ??s fault. Your answers donâ??t logically make sense to me. Either your answers DO make logical sense and I am not understanding you, or your answers donâ??t make logical sense because you are not giving me all the details I need (because you donâ??t know I need them), or some other reason. You might even be using different words than I would, or using the same words in different ways, etc. But if it is true that your answers really donâ??t make logical sense outside of Mormonism, it might be good to look at that. I would want to look at it.

The following is what I believe. Letâ??s discuss it.

How do you know when and/or if you are receiving assurances from God?

I would not phrase it like that. That is the first communication challenge - we phrase our thoughts differently. Itâ??s O-K . . . but I have to be careful to understand you. And you need to correct me if I misunderstand (which you are good at doing!). And you might find it hard to understand me. So instead of the question above I might say â??How can one be certain they are hearing from the True God?â? â??How can one be certain they are learning THE Truth?â?

Anything I hear, whether from a â??voicelessâ? voice (itâ??s hard to describe), or from what someone else says or writes, has to be confirmed. I have to check what I hear. Sometimes I hear something or read something and I â??feelâ? it is THE Truth (again, hard to describe). Again, I have to check what I â??feelâ?.

God knows that even though I sincerely try my best I could be deceived or mistaken. God WANTS me to know Him and WANTS me to know Truth. So God gave me and all who desire to know Him a way to check ourselves. God revealed Himself and His Truth in the pages of scripture - the Old and New Testament. Even though the Bible is not a perfect book, it is consistent in REVELATION. God spoke through imperfect humans and yet His Perfect Will was still carried out, and we have a book that contains consistent revelation. Some things are very clear - some things need to be wrestled with (at least for me!) but as I read with God and study and pray I gain more understanding and I go â??further up and further inâ?.

I wrote this before - it is one sign that the Bible is not merely a human book -

â??The Bible was written over about a fifteen-hundred-year span by more than 40 different authors. These authors were from many different walks of life, including the professions of king, military leader, herdsman, cupbearer to a pagan king, prime minister, physician, fisherman, tax collector, and rabbi. It was written in different times (war, peace, etc.), in different places (the wilderness, prison, a palace, etc.), on different continents, different languages, and in different moods. Yet, with all these differences, REVELATION is consistent. That is something mere humans could never pull off by themselves. That is a sign.â?

Any new revelation must not clash with revelation in the Bible. That is our scale, our standard, our way to â??test the spirits.â? I have no problem with new revelation - my problem is when it contradicts previous revelation.

False prophets have to discredit the Bible somehow if they want people who respect the Bible to follow them. Some false prophets give a reason why the Bible does not contain Godâ??s Word - Godâ??s Truth. They convince their followers that the whole Bible needs to be thrown out - then they are free to say whatever they want. They have gotten rid of the scale - now the only way to judge their â??truthâ? is by feelings. And if they seem like a sincere and pious guy people believe their â??truthâ?.

JS (consciously or unconsciously) and his early colleagues got rid of the Biblical standard in a little different way - a better way. JS claimed that PARTS of the Bible were Godâ??s Word and PARTS were not. That helped his truth be more acceptable to people who respect the Bible and who want to think of themselves as Christians. JS kept God the Father, Jesus, the Holy Ghost, the prophets, etc. but changed their character and their message. He kept terms like â??salvationâ? but changed its Biblical definition. He claimed that his NEW revelation is really the original revelation that men mucked up.

"I believe the Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors" (TPJS, p. 327).

I ask Mormons the motive for corrupt men hiding such humanly-good-sounding truths like â??men can be gods like the Fatherâ? and I get no answer (as of yet). TRUTH can stand and be questioned and tested. If it is TRUTH it will continue to stand.

How do you know Joseph Smith was NOT a prophet of God?

JS claimed that he was restoring truth that had been mucked up and/or lost for about 1700 years. As far as I know, not one else has ever had such a claim. That would mean that JS must have been an EXTREMELY special person. It also means that God gave people no way to know Him for 1700 years. Does that sound like God to you?

JSâ??s teachings donâ??t line up with Godâ??s standard. Mormon teachings donâ??t even line up with past Mormon teachings. Mormons call this â??new revelationâ?, but again, new revelation canâ??t clash with past revelation. (Unless, that is, God plays games with us and tells us things that arenâ??t true for fun. Or, unless God learns along the way and must correct past mistakes.)

I also look at JSâ??s character and life. I donâ??t mind that someone participates in occult practices before they meet God - I mind when the occult practices continue AFTER someone meets God. JSâ??s occult practices have been explained in many ways - I have heard that he never participated in the occult at any time, that he did and it was

O-K because everyone else did too, and that God doesnâ??t hate occult practices so it was all O-K. I donâ??t believe any of those fluctuating explanations. JS also broke American laws. People who knew him wrote about his personality, character, and reputation. I see no evidence that JS walked with God.

I also look at JSâ??s writings. The BoM, which is a history, has no historical evidence. The JST is mostly unused by JSâ??s church. The Books of Moses and Abraham have questionable sources. And, speaking specifically of the BoM, it has had many changes though the initial story was that JS received every word from God - seen in a hat. All he had to do is speak the word to his scribe. (And I donâ??t care about spelling mistakes - they donâ??t account for totally changed words, phrases added, or phrases deleted.) When I discuss these things with a Mormon they tell me the Bible is just as bad INSTEAD of supporting their scriptures (which are supposed to be better).

How do you know it was and is God assuring you Joseph was NOT?

From a merely logical view (even if I did not believe in God) I could not believe Mormonism at this time - there are way too many problematic issues But from a belief in God, JSâ??s teachings clash with Biblical revelation. When I â??test the spiritsâ? concerning JS he does not pass.

We are all free to believe what we choose to believe. But I think it is important to be honest. JS â??s teachings do not just add to Biblical teachings - they CHANGE Biblical Truth. If youâ??re O-K with that then that is O-K.

I keep hoping that as I discuss Mormonism with Mormons I will understand why they believe what they believe. I keep hoping that we can all learn Truth, true Truth by honestly facing tough questions and finding answers, and by admitting we are wrong when we see that we are. This whole subject is the most important subject of our existence. If I am wrong (and you are right) I receive another chance after death. If you are wrong (and I am right) you are in trouble.

I am so glad, Paul, that you are willing to have discussion with me and answer my questions. I have said this before but it is still true - I appreciate your spirit.

[Freedom in Truth]

THe Word, would fill all the books of the world, if it were to be written. The word is truly that still small voice within you, The scriptures are meant to guide you to the word, which is Christ, which is administered by the Holy Spirit.

The Word is written in every human heart that desires to hear and heed its instruction, it is infinite.

Yes, Jesus is the Word. He still speaks. But, He does not contradict Himself. The scriptures help us know the Word, and Jesus (HS) helps us understand the scriptures. The Word also gives us words only meant for us - for example, I might be told to go to my neighbor this afternoon and offer to take them to dinner. This does not conflict with scripture, yet there is no need for scripture to include all such messages to all of us. Scripture is sufficient though it does not contain EVERYTHING ever spoke by the Word.