How Can We Know When We Hear

[consiglieri]

She keeps going . . . and going . . . and going . . .

[consiglieri]

We each say what we believe. We each know what the other believes. I have asked you to support your beliefs.

What you fail to see is that you are all saying the same thing.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Freedom in Truth]

QUOTE(Freedom in Truth @ Mar 9 2007, 07:36 AM)

Maybe it would have been easier â??bringing the Bible to pressâ? if it had been written in English in America in the 1800s. Maybe it would have been easier if God gave someone every Hebrew and Greek word, one by one.

Yep every word then dictated to various scribes... to which has been accuratley shown could not spell worth a darn.

Spelling is not the issue. A bad speller doesnâ??t account for phrases added or deleted or words changed.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

I already stated that I am not concerned much with spelling, especially when the text is not seen in a hat.

Do you check out articles before you cite them? Or do you just assume any atheist is accurate and you will agree with them?

Zakuska - Sure I do... see below to have a lesson in ressearch.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Isaiah 7:14 - â??Apparently, Strong's entry for 'aalmah (5959) admits that it is the feminine of 'elem' (5958). That entry lists "lad, young man, stripling" but accurately mentions nothing of virginity.â?

Wrong - http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?...mp;isindex=5959

Zakuska - Guess again... The Definition to which the author is refering to in your own link is 5958. Which does mention nothing about virginity....

Point taken. However - Stripling - A juvenile between the onset of puberty and maturity. Is a stripling sexually active? Could a virgin be a female stripling? Maybe that is why Strongâ??s uses virgin in 5959? The word â??virginâ? is never used in the Bible to refer to a male - so would we expect it to be included in the definition of 5958?

Strongâ??s entry for 5959 does include the word virgin - why was this not pointed out?

You know, Zakuska, I think I will always be surprised at what reads to me as rudeness. I guess you donâ??t agree with Hammerâ??s thoughts about love (post 336).

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

5958 `elem eh'-lem from 5956; properly, something kept out of sight (Compare 5959), i.e. a lad:--young man, stripling.

Zakuska - Looking at the Blue letter Bible and the Hebrew Lexicon (even taking notice of the withstanding note) we also see nothing of 'Virginity' in the hebrew definition.

"A Girl of marriagable age"

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/wor...05959&page=

From the above link -

1) virgin, young woman

a) of marriageable age

b ) maid or newly married

There is no instance where it can be proved that this word designates a young woman who is not a virgin. (TWOT)

As far as the Hebrew definition - Hebrew girls not married were virgins. Weâ??re not discussing present day America here. Look at the way the Bible uses the word - look at Biblical culture.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Also, the Septuagint uses the Greek word #3933 in this verse. This is the same word Matthew uses in 1:23 (â??the virgin will be with child . . â??). The word is used 14 times in the KJV and is always translated â??virginâ?.

Definition -

1) a virgin

a) a marriageable maiden

b ) a woman who has never had sexual intercourse with a man

c) one's marriageable daughter

2) a man who has abstained from all uncleanness and whoredom attendant on idolatry, and so has kept his chastity

a) one who has never had intercourse with women

Zakuska - Again... Its been Lost in Translation. The Hebrew word means simply "of age", "Able to be married" and has nothing to do with sexual state of the girl. Virginity can be assumed true. But the original definition of the word does not mean it.

I disagree. You are discussing a culture that upheld sexual activity within marriage. You could be stoned to death for sexual activity outside of marriage. It is not a stretch to assume that a girl not married is a virgin in this culture. Scholars have included â??virginâ? in the definition. Those who wrote the Septuagint used â??virginâ? - why? The writers of the time period used â??virginâ?, but you come along thousands of years later and decide they were wrong?

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Micah 2:6 - â??He drops Ephrathah and he drops 'ruler' over Israel and changes it to shepherd, because Jesus never became a ruler over Israel.â? (Matthew 2:6)

Wrong - NIV - Matthew 2:6b â??for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel.â?

Zakuska -

Matthew 2:6 (New International Version)

6 'But you, Bethlehem , in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel.'[a]"

Micah 5:2 (New International Version)

2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans [a] of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins [ b ] are from of old, from ancient times. [c] "

Notice how Ephrathah has been dropped.

Ruler has also been changed to Shepard.

Was Christ ever a Jewish King or Governor? No. His Kingdom was not of this world.

Matthew 2:6 says a ruler will shepherd - ruler has not been dropped. The KJV uses the word â??Governorâ?. A governor is a ruler. If Bethlehem and Ephrath mean the same thing why do both words have to be used?

Jesus has not yet been a Jewish King or Governor of this world but He will be.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

KJV - Matthew 2:6b â??for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.â?

Genesis 35:19 â??And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.â? Same word.

Isaiah 9:7 - It is not a name but a title, a description.

2 Kings 18:27b (verse reference not provided by the author) - KJV - â??hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?â? Is the meaning changed?

Zakuska - Lost in translation.

Interesting â??answerâ?.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

How many verses in the Bible address homosexuality - just one?

Zakuska - Not sure... never had to worry about it myself.

More than one. You need to worry about the word â??virginâ??

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Jesus and his disciples spoke Greek?

Zakuska - Paul sure did... he nearly got strung up for desicrating the Jewish temple by taking Greeks into it. At least thats why he was arrested. And the Caananite dog... er... woman was Greek. Did not Christ and his Disciples speak to her?

Many spoke more than one language in that culture. Paul spoke Greek, though bringing Greeks into the temple area wouldnâ??t necessarily prove that. Where does it say that the Canaanite woman was Greek?

So because Paul spoke Greek we are to assume that Jesus and his disciples spoke Greek? The Bible says Jesus spoke in Aramaic (or Hebrew - this is argued) - is there a place where the Bible says Jesus spoke in Greek?

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

You seem willing to use any source that supports your argument! Why do you think these sources are valid? The authors donâ??t even have secret, sacred understandings and knowledge. Is this discernment? Your argument seems to be that the Bible is as bad as the BoM. Isnâ??t the BoM supposed to be better? Can you only show that the BoM isnâ??t worse than the Bible (in your opinion)? If the BoM isnâ??t any better then why bother with it?

You didnâ??t answer. â??Why do you think these sources are valid? The authors donâ??t even have secret, sacred understandings and knowledge. Is this discernment?â?

Zakuska - The Book of Mormon tells us the Bible has been Altered and many precious truths lost. So what happens when we put the premis to the test?

Everytime I point out a problem/flaw/change in the BoM you point to problems in the Bible. And even now, you are focusing on the Bible. I asked â??Your argument seems to be that the Bible is as bad as the BoM. Isnâ??t the BoM supposed to be better? Can you only show that the BoM isnâ??t worse than the Bible (in your opinion)? If the BoM isnâ??t any better then why bother with it?â?

Zakuska - We find that to be exactly true. Eg. Duet 32:8 has been miss tranlated and changed for theological nessecity. Then you have the whole "Reed Sea" vs "Red Sea" debate. The Johnaian Comma.

The BoM has been â??clarifiedâ? when the words came straight from God. (You didnâ??t comment on seeing words in a hat.) I would call this a change for theological necessity. It is probably not helpful to bring up the Johannine Comma with me since JS read it and left it in. I donâ??t see any importance between Reed Sea and Red Sea. (It is nice we can point to a real sea.) Again, you only seem to be able to claim that the BoM is better than the Bible (in your opinion). If the Bible is a disaster then that doesnâ??t say much for the credibility of the BoM, does it? Can the BoM only look good by comparing it to something â??worseâ?? Shouldnâ??t it be able to stand on its own?

Zakuska - The BOM is the corner stone of the restoration of all things. All the things that where lost and the secret works of Man will come to light before the second coming. The BOM restores some of the missing information. The D&C and the PGOP restore a little more. And there will be yet More revealed. Are we read for it?

The BoMâ??s only credit is that JS was a true prophet. You prove JS was a true prophet by saying that the Biblical prophets were as bad as JS was. If I were to believe in Mormonism I would want something BETTER, not just as bad.

This thread is supposed to be about how we can know who we are hearing from. The only answer I have received is you all feel you are hearing from God. Not a helpful answer when â??The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure.â? (Jeremiah 17:9a) You have based your salvation on a deceitful heart, and you seem to have nothing else.

Maybe try proving the BoM to be what you say it is without speaking of the Bible.

Well chances are it depends on the spirit if there seems to be a really uneasy fealing about then that might qualify

I am assuming you are addressing the original question of this thread. Again, you are relying only on feelings. Feelings are deceptive and they come and go.

[Freedom in Truth]

Where did Consig ever claim that Jospeh Smith was the source of his truth? Seem to me he's repeatedly specified that Heavenly Father, not Brother Joseph was the source of his truth- and the confirming witness to the same.

JS wrote the BoM, etc. He is the source of your version of truth. He changed the Truth witnessed to in the Bible. Mormons base their beliefs on JSâ??s writings. Take away everything JS wrote and everything other Mormons wrote based on JSâ??s writings - what do you have?

Tread very lightly, FIT- the same razor you attempt to slash Mormonism with can easily undercut your own truth claims.

Yes - Mormons on this thread have repeatedly slashed the Bible in order to show that the Bible is just as bad as the BoM. Interesting since Mormons claim the Bible as scripture.

There is every bit as much evidence for the Book of Mormon as there is the historical Jesus. The same hammer you weild to kick out the supports for my faith will work equally well against yours.

I disagree. But again, you have selectively chosen your two topics. Why donâ??t you compare the BoM to the Bible - another book? Or compare a person in the BoM to Jesus? Any concrete evidence for any place in the BoM? For any person?

Or, better yet, support the BoM and JS WITHOUT comparing them to the Bible and to Biblical prophets. If they are Truth then they should be able to stand on their own, right? Why compare them to falsehoods?

[Freedom in Truth]

QUOTE(Freedom in Truth @ Mar 10 2007, 07:07 PM)

God does not change His mind, but it can look to us like He does. We change our minds because we receive new information, we realize we were wrong, we receive pressure from others, or our original decision was arbitrary and we make a new arbitrary decision. Does God receive new information? Is He ever wrong? Is He pressured from others? Does He decide arbitrarily? What you see in Jonah is anthropopathism.

Numbers 23:19 - â??God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent . . .â? God is not a man? He is according to you. God doesnâ??t repent? He does according to you. And, hereâ??s another verse JS missed.

Hmmm... Moses thought God was a man too.

The verse above says God is not a man.

Zakuska -

Ex 15

3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

The greatest warrior who ever lives.

PS.

an

[Freedom in Truth]

QUOTE(Freedom in Truth @ Mar 10 2007, 06:07 PM)

God doesnâ??t repent? He does according to you.

Jonah 3:10

1 Chr. 21: 15 (although in this one, I honestly have never been able to tell if it is the L-rd repenting, or the angel)

Amos 7: 3 & 6

Ex. 32: 14

1 Sam. 15: 35

I would say it is the Lord who was grieved in 1 Chronicles. I think all these examples are anthropopathic, though I do think God can grieve/be sad, etc. But - why would God ever repent? Is He ever wrong? Do things happen that He didnâ??t think would happen? Does He receive new information? Is He ever wrong and therefore He needs to apologize and change? Does He ever lose control of His temper so He has to apologize?

Dr. Steuss - Edit: Although from an LDS standpoint, I guess it isnâ??t necessarily G-d repenting in these verses, it would be the pre-incarnate Christ.

That Numbers 23:19 raises an interesting insight (IMO). â??â?¦neither the son of manâ?. If Christ is â??The Son of Manâ? (i.e. Matt 26:24, Luke 9:22, Mark 14:41, etc.), and G-d is not â??the son of man,â? then Christ cannot be G-d.

â??Son of Manâ? is a Messianic title in the NT from Daniel 7:13-14 -

"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.â?

I do not think the context of Numbers 23:19 supports â??son of manâ? as a Messianic title.

[consiglieri]

You know, Zakuska, I think I will always be surprised at what reads to me as rudeness. I guess you donâ??t agree with Hammerâ??s thoughts about love (post 336).

Hey, what about me? I'm trying to be rude, too!

Aren't you reading my posts?

I feel like the ghost of Christmas past.

--Consiglieri

[Freedom in Truth]

QUOTE(Freedom in Truth @ Mar 13 2007, 02:38 PM)

O-K, you hear or â??feelâ? (or however you might describe it) a voice. How do you rule out that it is not a voice you imagine, or a voice that is not your own but is not Godâ??s voice either?

Sorry, could you rephrase the question? How do I rule out that it is NOT God's voice?

Sorry - I phrased that badly. How do you know you arenâ??t imagining a voice? Or, assuming you are really hearing a voice that is not your own voice - how do you know this voice is Godâ??s voice?

Paul - I ask God, and He confirms the truth to me, either personally or through an agent. And I know any agent of God when God tells me who is one of His agents.

Reading through this post it seems that the voice you hear told you it is God. You receive confirmation through an agent that the voice you hear tells you is an agent. Everything for you is dependent on the voice you hear.

Would you agree that it is theoretically possible for one to hear a voice that claims to be God but is not God? (This voice claiming to be God is either imagined or is a lying, ungodly spirit, or possibly another option.)

Would you agree that we humans can make mistakes? Would you agree that we can deceive ourselves for various reasons? If we are deceiving ourselves we donâ??t usually know that this is what we are doing.

If it is possible to deceive ourselves and also possible to hear a voice that claims to be God when it isnâ??t, then it seems to me that we need to check ourselves somehow - we need a source outside of ourselves. Here is an example I have thought of -

10 years ago you weighed some apples and found that 3 apples equals a pound. From that point on you didnâ??t weigh apples anymore - you just assumed that 3 apples equals a pound. Some years the apple crop produces smaller apples - some years the apples are larger. Itâ??s hard to notice the change in apple size from year to year, so if you assume 3 apples equals a pound you will be wrong. But - you can check the weight of 3 apples with a scale. The scale will tell you if you are accurate or not. You cannot rely on judging the weight of 3 apples without a scale.

But the above example is different from hearing and believing a voice that claims to be God because the above example started with you weighing apples. Hearing a voice claiming to be God and believing it is more like deciding for yourself that a certain number of apples equals a pound without ever checking the weight of the apples on a scale. (Or, perhaps you did initially check your apples with a scale but you didnâ??t check the accuracy of the scale itself.)

What is your scale, Paul? Without a scale you are depending on your own thoughts that tell you the voice is Godâ??s, and your own thoughts can be deceptive. Without a scale you are depending on the voice being real (not your imagination) and being honest. Donâ??t you think it is crucial to have a scale?

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

When did you first hear this voice?

Paul - I don't remember when the first time was. I'm thinking long, long ago, in a galaxy far, far away.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Were you a Mormon before you heard the voice, or were you prompted by a Mormon to ask if the BoM were true (or something like this) right before you heard the voice?

Paul - No, I wasn't a "Mormon" when I first heard and felt God speak to me, but yes, when I met a person who was a "Mormon" and had the chance to talk with her (a young woman), she prompted me to ask God to assure me that what she was telling me, and talking about, was inspired by God.

In order to clarify what you said - you were attending a traditional Christian church and sometime during that period you heard Godâ??s voice? Then you were introduced to Mormonism and heard the same voice tell you Mormonism was true? (Just curious - do you still know this woman?)

Paul - I became a "Mormon" later in life, when I was about 28 years old. Before that I was in another church, and all of us were Christians.

What do you mean by â??all of us were Christiansâ?? What kind of church were you attending? Were you raised in it from childhood? I assume you werenâ??t fulfilled in that church since you left and followed Mormonism - what about the church didnâ??t fulfill you or seem to be truth?

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

You ask God if He just spoke to you?

Paul - No, I know it is God when God speaks to me. There is no doubt in my mind that God is God.

What if I told you I was Philip Yancey (present-day Christian author)? Would you believe me? Why or why not?

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Then the same voice tells you the answer?

Paul - When God tells me something, yes, it is God who is talking to me and giving me answers.

You believe the voice is Godâ??s, but you have not established that yet outside of your own beliefs. You have no scale. But you probably can know that the voice you hear is always the same voice.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Wouldnâ??t it be better to have a source other than the same voice to validate what you heard?

Paul - Are you suggesting that I should believe someone else telling me God is God, instead of just believing God, personally?

Why would I believe someone else who is not God? Why should I trust what he/she tells me?

Am I suggesting that you should believe someone else telling you God is God, instead of just believing God, personally? Not exactly. I am suggesting that you need someone else telling you God is God other than yourself. You believe the voice that claims to be God. If the voice is not God then you are not believing God personally. You have no scale on which to measure whether or not the voice is God.

Paul - Who is a better witness than God to tell me who God really is?

Hmm.

Jesus Christ, maybe?

Okay. But I know Jesus is Christ only because His Father has told me He is, through another witness who is also God.

Jesus Christ would be a great witness to God the Father. Look at what Jesus said and did. Do your ideas of God match what Jesus said about Him? They do only through the interpretations of JS and other Mormons. It seems that JS is your â??scaleâ?. How accurate a scale is JS?

You said you heard the voice before you found the teachings of Mormonism. Was the voice teaching you Mormon concepts before you met the Mormon woman?

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

It is heavy, and important. And I am not meaning to sound like I am discussing it casually - forgive me if it comes across that way.

Paul - I wasn't trying to imply that you were. I was simply telling you that I think this is a very important issue.

I hope you won't stop thinking about who God is until you really know who God is.

I believe I know who God is. I do not put my trust only in what I feel and think I hear. I know I can deceive myself. I have a scale, and I check with the scale daily.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

I am understanding that the voice you hear validates itself and validated the Bible for you. Is that correct?

Paul - In a manner of speaking, yes. God tells me who God is, and helps me see the truth that is in the Bible.

QUOTE -Freedom in Truth

If it is, then isnâ??t this a problem?

Paul - No. I don't think so. And I don't see how it could be either.

What do you see as the problem in asking God to tell me what God will tell me?

The problem is your trust is in yourself only. You believe you are hearing from God because you believe you are hearing from God. You trust yourself even though you are capable of being deceived (like all of us). I am NOT saying you hear from demons, but if a demon were talking to someone whom he knew wouldnâ??t listen to a demon, do you think he would identify himself as a demon? Demons lie. (Again, I am NOT saying you hear from demons. Someone who is not hearing from God is not necessarily hearing from demons. This is just an example.)

When someone tells me they are hearing from God I â??put their apples on the scaleâ?. If they donâ??t weigh correctly I cannot assume they are hearing Godâ??s voice. If they donâ??t have a scale themselves I am ever more worried for them, for they have set things up so they have no solid ground.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

What if a guy on the street shows me a diamond ring and asks me if I want to buy it? What if when I ask him how I can know if it is real he tells me I can know it is real because he told me it is real. Wouldnâ??t it be better if I could take the ring to a jeweler and have it evaluated? And wouldnâ??t it be a problem if the guy on the street wonâ??t let me do this?

Paul - Why would you trust a jeweler? What if the jeweler you found sold that stone to the salesman?

Street-selling, at least where I live, is illegal. So the guy trying to sell me something on the street is already engaging in illegal activity. Street-sellers, where I live, who do not even have a permit to set up a table are actually illegal to buy from. They usually if not always are selling a product that looks like the real thing but is not.

Paul - How would you know if that jeweler knew all about diamonds, or paid attention when examining that one?

Yes, it would be foolish for me to not choose a jeweler on any criteria, but there are some basics here. A jeweler who can pay the rent for a nice store is staying in business. That would mean he has people who buy from him who are generally satisfied. If I wanted to be more cautious I could show the diamond to several jewelers. I could research jewelers as well. I could even learn about diamonds. And, it would be great if I had a friend whose character and knowledge I respected who was a jeweler.

Paul - In the end, we all usually trust somebody... even if only ourselves.

But we must choose carefully who we trust. What is their character, their motives? Do they have godly qualities? Does their â??truthâ? make sense?

And I donâ??t believe we should ever only trust one other person, or only ourselves. We have to find a way to find Godâ??s Truth through flawed people who can be deceived. We need something more than some guy telling us â??This is Truth.â? We need something more than our feelings telling us â??This is Truthâ?. We need something that transcends human ability. And we need a Truth that never changes.

Paul - If you never trust anyone, including God or yourself, how will you ever know anything?

Hmm.

By just following the crowd, maybe?

What if the crowd is wrong, at least in part, and very few actually do know the right way?

Iâ??ve never been very good at following the crowd!

Paul - Our Lord tells us the way is narrow, and very few of us will actually find it.

Though we are told we will find it if we humbly and sincerely look.

Paul - I suggest that you ignore the crowds unless you know, personally, they are going the right way.

There are always crowds. There are crowds of Catholics, crowds of Mormons, crowds of Prosperity Gospel-types, crowds of atheists, etc. The percentage of people who walk the narrow road is low, but there are still many who walk the narrow road.

As I have said, I have never been good at following crowds.

[consiglieri]

Sorry - I phrased that badly. How do you know you arenâ??t imagining a voice? Or, assuming you are really hearing a voice that is not your own voice - how do you know this voice is Godâ??s voice?

That voice is me!

It's my voice!

Can't anybody hear me?

I'm starting to get a complex.

[Magyar]

It never ceases to amaze me how often we LDS are told by critics that we can't rely on the promptings of the Spirit in any of its forms (burning in the bosom, the voice of God to us or to a prophet, the ministry of angels, etc.) These critics insist that we can only depend on the Bible for truth.

How the blazes do they think the Bible came to exist? Did it fall out of the sky one incredible day, whole and ready to read? Or was it perhaps the voice of God, revealed to prophets through the ages and confirmed by the witness of the Spirit as well as the visitation of angels?

Can Satan counterfeit every possible manifestation of God to man? What a pathetic God that would be. And if so, perhaps, the whole edifice of Christianity, nay, even Judaism itself is a big Satanic scheme, from the alleged theophany of Abraham right on up through the vision of Paul.

Perhaps the true universe is nothing but green cheese.

[Paul Ray]

Oh goody! Something else that will take several minutes!

I just found it or I would have answered it sooner.

Sorry - I phrased that badly. How do you know you arenâ??t imagining a voice? Or, assuming you are really hearing a voice that is not your own voice - how do you know this voice is Godâ??s voice?

I know it by knowing God and God's voice, to put it simply.

When you know God, I think you will also know God's voice.

Reading through this post it seems that the voice you hear told you it is God.

Not quite. It wasn't a voice telling me it was God. It was God telling me, with God's voice.

You receive confirmation through an agent that the voice you hear tells you is an agent. Everything for you is dependent on the voice you hear.

Yes, pretty much.

Would you agree that it is theoretically possible for one to hear a voice that claims to be God but is not God? (This voice claiming to be God is either imagined or is a lying, ungodly spirit, or possibly another option.)

Sure.

Would you agree that we humans can make mistakes?

Sure. I know I do.

Would you agree that we can deceive ourselves for various reasons?

Yes.

If we are deceiving ourselves we donâ??t usually know that this is what we are doing.

Right. But when we find out, from someone who knows, and we know that, we then know that we have been deceived.

If it is possible to deceive ourselves and also possible to hear a voice that claims to be God when it isnâ??t, then it seems to me that we need to check ourselves somehow - we need a source outside of ourselves.

Right. Which is why I ask God. God always knows.

Here is an example I have thought of -

10 years ago you weighed some apples and found that 3 apples equals a pound. From that point on you didnâ??t weigh apples anymore - you just assumed that 3 apples equals a pound. Some years the apple crop produces smaller apples - some years the apples are larger. Itâ??s hard to notice the change in apple size from year to year, so if you assume 3 apples equals a pound you will be wrong. But - you can check the weight of 3 apples with a scale. The scale will tell you if you are accurate or not. You cannot rely on judging the weight of 3 apples without a scale.

Okay. I think I see your point. I guess God is my scale, in that way.

But the above example is different from hearing and believing a voice that claims to be God because the above example started with you weighing apples. Hearing a voice claiming to be God and believing it is more like deciding for yourself that a certain number of apples equals a pound without ever checking the weight of the apples on a scale. (Or, perhaps you did initially check your apples with a scale but you didnâ??t check the accuracy of the scale itself.)

Yes. I checked the accuracy against a scale, and I also checked the scale.

I have experimented with God's words enough to trust God.

What is your scale, Paul? Without a scale you are depending on your own thoughts that tell you the voice is Godâ??s, and your own thoughts can be deceptive. Without a scale you are depending on the voice being real (not your imagination) and being honest. Donâ??t you think it is crucial to have a scale?

God is my scale. I hope you have been listening.

In order to clarify what you said - you were attending a traditional Christian church and sometime during that period you heard Godâ??s voice? Then you were introduced to Mormonism and heard the same voice tell you Mormonism was true?

Yes.

(Just curious - do you still know this woman?)

Yes, I do still know her. But it's been about 18 years since I last heard from her, or about her.

What do you mean by â??all of us were Christiansâ??

All of us were disciples of Jesus Christ, following His example, at least to some extent.

What kind of church were you attending?

It is called the "Church of Christ".

Were you raised in it from childhood?

Yes.

I assume you werenâ??t fulfilled in that church since you left and followed Mormonism - what about the church didnâ??t fulfill you or seem to be truth?

I was fulfilled in that Church. I was preparing to be a full-time minister, like my Dad and Granddad.

I was trying to convert the missionary who then helped to convert me... because she had more to offer.

What if I told you I was Philip Yancey (present-day Christian author)? Would you believe me? Why or why not?

I would believe that you believed you were, if you told me... unless I thought you were joking, of course.

Whether you actually were or were not isn't something I would think a lot about.

... because it would have no bearing on my eternal destiny.

You believe the voice is Godâ??s, but you have not established that yet outside of your own beliefs. You have no scale.

I don't think you heard me, yet. God is my scale. I have established that it was God, for myself.

But you probably can know that the voice you hear is always the same voice.

Yes, I can know that. I'm happy to see you think it is possible.

Am I suggesting that you should believe someone else telling you God is God, instead of just believing God, personally? Not exactly. I am suggesting that you need someone else telling you God is God other than yourself.

Why would I need someone else to tell me God is God when I already know God is God?

Who else do you suggest I trust, besides God?

You believe the voice that claims to be God.

Not quite. I believe God, and it is through God's voice that God tells me that God is God.

... as well as some other ways God communicates to me.

If the voice is not God then you are not believing God personally.

Yes, good point. I have already thought about that. But it is God I am believing, personally.

You have no scale on which to measure whether or not the voice is God.

Yes, I do. God is my scale.

Try thinking of how I would know if you were you unless I really knew it was you.

How would I know it was you?

Jesus Christ would be a great witness to God the Father. Look at what Jesus said and did. Do your ideas of God match what Jesus said about Him?

Yes. And btw, Jesus is God, also.

They do only through the interpretations of JS and other Mormons.

God is the one who told me Joseph Smith was God's prophet.

I don't believe it just because Joseph Smith said he was.

It seems that JS is your â??scaleâ?.

I don't know why you would think that. God is my scale, for everything.

How accurate a scale is JS?

Pretty accurate, as far as men go. God told me God authorized Joseph to speak for Him.

You said you heard the voice before you found the teachings of Mormonism. Was the voice teaching you Mormon concepts before you met the Mormon woman?

Yes, I guess so. "Mormon" concepts include Bible concepts, because "Mormons" also have the Bible.

I believe I know who God is. I do not put my trust only in what I feel and think I hear. I know I can deceive myself. I have a scale, and I check with the scale daily.

Ditto for me, too.

Hmm. Why don't we agree, I wonder.

The problem is your trust is in yourself only.

I never said that. God is my scale. I suppose God is also yours. Go figure.

You believe you are hearing from God because you believe you are hearing from God.

Yes. Makes pretty good sense, doesn't it. It also helps that I know who is God.

You trust yourself even though you are capable of being deceived (like all of us).

I trust God speaking to me. That's a little bit different than simply saying I am trusting myself.

I am NOT saying you hear from demons, but if a demon were talking to someone whom he knew wouldnâ??t listen to a demon, do you think he would identify himself as a demon? Demons lie.

I already know that too, btw.

(Again, I am NOT saying you hear from demons. Someone who is not hearing from God is not necessarily hearing from demons. This is just an example.)

Gotcha.

When someone tells me they are hearing from God I â??put their apples on the scaleâ?.

Me too.

If they donâ??t weigh correctly I cannot assume they are hearing Godâ??s voice. If they donâ??t have a scale themselves I am ever more worried for them, for they have set things up so they have no solid ground.

I see your point.

Street-selling, at least where I live, is illegal. So the guy trying to sell me something on the street is already engaging in illegal activity. Street-sellers, where I live, who do not even have a permit to set up a table are actually illegal to buy from. They usually if not always are selling a product that looks like the real thing but is not.

Heh, a fitting analogy. There are many people in the world who are claiming to be acting with God's authority, when they do not have God's authority to do those things.

Yes, it would be foolish for me to not choose a jeweler on any criteria, but there are some basics here. A jeweler who can pay the rent for a nice store is staying in business. That would mean he has people who buy from him who are generally satisfied. If I wanted to be more cautious I could show the diamond to several jewelers. I could research jewelers as well. I could even learn about diamonds. And, it would be great if I had a friend whose character and knowledge I respected who was a jeweler.

pssst... all jewelers are selling rocks for a lot of money.

I know women like the rocks, but are they really worth so much money?

They are only rocks, after all... but then I suppose money is only money, after all.

But we must choose carefully who we trust. What is their character, their motives? Do they have godly qualities? Does their â??truthâ? make sense?

I simply asked God which church I should join, and God told me.

Is there a better recommendation available from anybody else out there?

And I donâ??t believe we should ever only trust one other person, or only ourselves. We have to find a way to find Godâ??s Truth through flawed people who can be deceived.

I agree. And I do that by asking God, personally.

We need something more than some guy telling us â??This is Truth.â? We need something more than our feelings telling us â??This is Truthâ?. We need something that transcends human ability. And we need a Truth that never changes.

God is the best witness available.

Iâ??ve never been very good at following the crowd!

Don't worry. With practice you can get good at anything.

Though we are told we will find it if we humbly and sincerely look.

And do you know who we should look to for all of our answers?

There are always crowds. There are crowds of Catholics, crowds of Mormons, crowds of Prosperity Gospel-types, crowds of atheists, etc. The percentage of people who walk the narrow road is low, but there are still many who walk the narrow road.

Yes. And I believe I am walking with them.

I have said, I have never been good at following crowds.

Maybe you just need to find the right crowd.

[Freedom in Truth]

Seems to me... this "Voice" Paul Ray is speaking too is very Biblically based indeed.

1 Kgs. 19: 12

12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

1 Ne. 17: 45

45 Ye are swift to do iniquity but slow to remember the Lord your God. Ye have seen an angel, and he spake unto you; yea, ye have heard his voice from time to time; and he hath spoken unto you in a still small voice, but ye were cpast feeling, that ye could not feel his words; wherefore, he has spoken unto you like unto the voice of thunder, which did cause the earth to shake as if it were to divide asunder.

D&C 85: 6

6 Yea, thus saith the still small voice, which whispereth through and pierceth all things, and often times it maketh my bones to quake while it maketh manifest, saying

John heard lots of voices in his heavenly vision, and so did many of the other prophets. Are you a Prophet Paul Ray?

I have absolutely no problem with Paul Ray hearing a voice. My problem is his criteria for discernment of who this voice is. Since we can deceive ourselves we need something other than â??The voice claimed to be Godâ? or â??I believe the voice is Godâ?. We need a scale, a standard.

People other than Paul Ray believe they hear Godâ??s voice, yet their voice presents a very different â??Godâ?. Someone is NOT hearing from God. Do we have a way to check what we hear or are we left to just flounder in the dark?

What are you thinking and suggesting with the use of the capital "P" in prophet, I wonder.

I know what I am thinking. What are are thinking?

I believe a prophet is anyone who has been taught something by God, personally.

... and yes, I have been.

But don't believe me just because I say so.

I suggest that you ask God, personally.

... and keep asking until God actually tells you.

I already know that you are a prophet.

God has already told me about you.

You â??have beenâ? a prophet? So sometimes you are a prophet and sometimes you arenâ??t? So sometimes Isaiah was a prophet and sometimes he wasnâ??t? I thought you told me everyone was a prophet . . . or was that Zakuska?

If you are a senator are you sometimes an senator and sometimes not? If you are at a weekend social gathering and someone asks you what you do, do you say â??Well, I have been a senator, and I will be again on Monday, but right now I am not a senator.â? Or, do you say, â??I am a senator.â?

[Freedom in Truth]

Why don't you try explaining the idea you have in your mind that leads you to believe there is a difference between a prophet and someone who prophesizes.

I know there is a difference between a prophet and a prophecy.

A prophet is a person who prophesizes and a prophecy is what a prophet teaches.

If a person is repeatedly teaching what God has taught him, or her, then that person is prophesying. (sp?)

What do you see as the difference between a prophet and a person who prophesizes?

If we are wrong, or you believe we are wrong, why don't you just tell us what you think is the truth?

1 Corinthians 12:4-11 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

1 Corinthians 12:27-30 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

Ephesians 4:11-13 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Paul is saying in these verses that there are different kinds of gifts and different kinds of service. He lists prophets and teachers separately. He believes we all can receive wisdom, revelation and understanding from the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:17, Colossians 1:9) - yet he still lists prophets and teachers separately. Now, either Paul is wrong or being a prophet is a different thing from being a teacher, and hearing from the Holy Spirit is different from being a prophet or from being a teacher. So, is Paul wrong?

I believe Paul is not wrong. In that case we need to figure out what he is saying. This is what I see -

Prophets are Godâ??s mouthpiece. They have a close relationship with God. Their job is to give the people messages, commands, warnings, encouragement, etc. from God. Often prophets have an immediate and direct message from God to someone or a group of people. Moses gave the people Godâ??s Law. Later prophets told the people they were sinning and had strayed from God. They communicated to the people that they needed to repent and the consequences for lack of repentance. They told of future events to give the people warning, and hope. They told the people what God wanted of them (obedience) and how He felt about them (love). When a prophet gives a message he is not necessarily teaching at all - he may be proclaiming, reminding, rebuking, correcting, encouraging, etc. He tells you what God said, and it is often something you should already know, or it is something specific for you to do. Prophecies are not â??taughtâ? - they are communicated.

Teachers give knowledge and information to people (students) and help the people understand the knowledge. Scribes were often teachers in the OT and Rabbis were teachers in the NT. Teachers often teach and explain what prophets heard from God. For example, the prophet Moses received the Law from God - a teacher would teach and explain the Law. A teacher gives information, explains it, helps the students study it, and tests the students. A teacher helps people learn information.

You might tell me God wants me to read and obey the book of Matthew. That is a prophecy - a communication from God through you to me. You are not teaching me what Matthew says - you are not explaining Matthew to me . . . a teacher would do that. And if that is the only time you give a message to someone from God I would not call you a prophet.

Naturally a teacher can hear directly from God and a prophet can teach. But, how are they PRIMARILY used by God? Are they primarily used by God to communicate direct messages to people? Or are they primarily used by God to teach and explain what God has already said? I can be a pianist and sometimes write poems. I can be a poet who sometimes plays the piano.

I can hear from God and not be a prophet. First, I may hear things only meant for me - God may tell me I need to give $100 to a street mission. Second, I may only hear a message intended for others now and then. I am not being primarily used by God as a prophet.

Again, Paul lists prophets and teachers separately. He says we are different parts of one body. We have different gifts and different ways to serve. He says we are not all prophets. Is he right or wrong?

[Paul Ray]

You â??have beenâ? a prophet?

Yes, but that's not what I meant. Try reading what I said again, in context.

So sometimes you are a prophet and sometimes you arenâ??t? So sometimes Isaiah was a prophet and sometimes he wasnâ??t?

Do you see the kind of problems you can run into when you don't correctly understand someone?

If you haven't figured it out already, what I meant what that I have been taught by God, personally.

I hope that now helps you understand what I meant.

I thought you told me everyone was a prophet . . . or was that Zakuska?

Confused, aren't you? Try going back to read what we said. That's what I'd do.

And then if you still can't figure it out, let me know and I'll say it again.

If you are a senator are you sometimes an senator and sometimes not?

Yes. I am a senator as long as I am a senator, and when I'm not a senator I am not a senator.

If you are at a weekend social gathering and someone asks you what you do, do you say â??Well, I have been a senator, and I will be again on Monday, but right now I am not a senator.â? Or, do you say, â??I am a senator.â?

I would say I am a senator, if I am continuing to be one.

Are you trying to suggest that since I have been a true prophet of God I will always be a true prophet of God, even if someday I am teaching nothing but lies?

Do you have any gum?

[Freedom in Truth]

I honestly cannot believe that you guys are still at this thread.

Kudos to you all for perserverence.

I will weigh in on the side of the angels, however.

The fact is that it is apostate Christianity that did away with prophets in God's church, and in the process created an organization unlike anything represented in the Bible.

If the Bible teaches anything, it teaches that whenever God had a people on the earth he recognized as his, he had a prophet at the head; defined as a person through whom he revealed his will to his people.

I think many churches/congregations would say their leader heard from God and knew Godâ??s will. They, however, might not use the word prophet. I am not Catholic but I believe they believe their Pope hears from God and reveals Godâ??s will to them.

Others on this thread think everyone is a prophet - are you saying there is only one?

This pattern is consistent from the beginning of Genesis through the end of Revelation.

A church that does not follow this pattern is unlike any church we read about in the Bible.

Why do you believe in a Church that is so foreign to the Bible, FIT?

Where does it say in the OT that prophets were at the head of the temple? Where does it say this in the NT? Who was the prophet at the head of the congregation(s) in the NT? Does Paul ever say prophets (only) are the head of congregations?

And more to the point of the question in the title of this lengthy thread; is it not certain that a church that is not organized after the clear biblical pattern is likely to be teaching a "doctrine of demons"?

No - not necessarily. Couldnâ??t a church be teaching Truth but be in error in one respect? Mormonism has changed and corrected itself - received â??new revelationâ? - but wouldnâ??t you say it still was Godâ??s true church? (Thank you for getting back to the initial question of this thread!)

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Paul Ray]

Paul is saying in these verses that there are different kinds of gifts and different kinds of service. He lists prophets and teachers separately. He believes we all can receive wisdom, revelation and understanding from the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:17, Colossians 1:9) - yet he still lists prophets and teachers separately. Now, either Paul is wrong or being a prophet is a different thing from being a teacher, and hearing from the Holy Spirit is different from being a prophet or from being a teacher. So, is Paul wrong?

I believe Paul is not wrong. In that case we need to figure out what he is saying. This is what I see -

Prophets are Godâ??s mouthpiece. They have a close relationship with God. Their job is to give the people messages, commands, warnings, encouragement, etc. from God. Often prophets have an immediate and direct message from God to someone or a group of people. Moses gave the people Godâ??s Law. Later prophets told the people they were sinning and had strayed from God. They communicated to the people that they needed to repent and the consequences for lack of repentance. They told of future events to give the people warning, and hope. They told the people what God wanted of them (obedience) and how He felt about them (love). When a prophet gives a message he is not necessarily teaching at all - he may be proclaiming, reminding, rebuking, correcting, encouraging, etc. He tells you what God said, and it is often something you should already know, or it is something specific for you to do. Prophecies are not â??taughtâ? - they are communicated.

Teachers give knowledge and information to people (students) and help the people understand the knowledge. Scribes were often teachers in the OT and Rabbis were teachers in the NT. Teachers often teach and explain what prophets heard from God. For example, the prophet Moses received the Law from God - a teacher would teach and explain the Law. A teacher gives information, explains it, helps the students study it, and tests the students. A teacher helps people learn information.

You might tell me God wants me to read and obey the book of Matthew. That is a prophecy - a communication from God through you to me. You are not teaching me what Matthew says - you are not explaining Matthew to me . . . a teacher would do that. And if that is the only time you give a message to someone from God I would not call you a prophet.

Naturally a teacher can hear directly from God and a prophet can teach. But, how are they PRIMARILY used by God? Are they primarily used by God to communicate direct messages to people? Or are they primarily used by God to teach and explain what God has already said? I can be a pianist and sometimes write poems. I can be a poet who sometimes plays the piano.

I can hear from God and not be a prophet. First, I may hear things only meant for me - God may tell me I need to give $100 to a street mission. Second, I may only hear a message intended for others now and then. I am not being primarily used by God as a prophet.

Again, Paul lists prophets and teachers separately. He says we are different parts of one body. We have different gifts and different ways to serve. He says we are not all prophets. Is he right or wrong?

I hope you are having a very good day, Freedom. Where I am the sun is shining.

I am choosing to now discontinue our discussions. At this point I think it is pointless.

But please have yourself a very good day.

[Freedom in Truth]

QUOTE(Freedom in Truth @ Apr 6 2007, 11:45 AM)

Paul is saying in these verses that there are different kinds of gifts and different kinds of service. He lists prophets and teachers separately. He believes we all can receive wisdom, revelation and understanding from the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:17, Colossians 1:9) - yet he still lists prophets and teachers separately. Now, either Paul is wrong or being a prophet is a different thing from being a teacher, and hearing from the Holy Spirit is different from being a prophet or from being a teacher. So, is Paul wrong?

I believe Paul is not wrong. In that case we need to figure out what he is saying. This is what I see -

Prophets are Godâ??s mouthpiece. They have a close relationship with God. Their job is to give the people messages, commands, warnings, encouragement, etc. from God. Often prophets have an immediate and direct message from God to someone or a group of people. Moses gave the people Godâ??s Law. Later prophets told the people they were sinning and had strayed from God. They communicated to the people that they needed to repent and the consequences for lack of repentance. They told of future events to give the people warning, and hope. They told the people what God wanted of them (obedience) and how He felt about them (love). When a prophet gives a message he is not necessarily teaching at all - he may be proclaiming, reminding, rebuking, correcting, encouraging, etc. He tells you what God said, and it is often something you should already know, or it is something specific for you to do. Prophecies are not â??taughtâ? - they are communicated.

Teachers give knowledge and information to people (students) and help the people understand the knowledge. Scribes were often teachers in the OT and Rabbis were teachers in the NT. Teachers often teach and explain what prophets heard from God. For example, the prophet Moses received the Law from God - a teacher would teach and explain the Law. A teacher gives information, explains it, helps the students study it, and tests the students. A teacher helps people learn information.

You might tell me God wants me to read and obey the book of Matthew. That is a prophecy - a communication from God through you to me. You are not teaching me what Matthew says - you are not explaining Matthew to me . . . a teacher would do that. And if that is the only time you give a message to someone from God I would not call you a prophet.

Naturally a teacher can hear directly from God and a prophet can teach. But, how are they PRIMARILY used by God? Are they primarily used by God to communicate direct messages to people? Or are they primarily used by God to teach and explain what God has already said? I can be a pianist and sometimes write poems. I can be a poet who sometimes plays the piano.

I can hear from God and not be a prophet. First, I may hear things only meant for me - God may tell me I need to give $100 to a street mission. Second, I may only hear a message intended for others now and then. I am not being primarily used by God as a prophet.

Again, Paul lists prophets and teachers separately. He says we are different parts of one body. We have different gifts and different ways to serve. He says we are not all prophets. Is he right or wrong?

I hope you are having a very good day, Freedom. Where I am the sun is shining.

I am choosing to now discontinue our discussions. At this point I think it is pointless.

But please have yourself a very good day.

Paul, this was an important post. You asked me to tell you what I thought. I would like your comments. I also want to understand how you see the scripture passages that I cited. Why will you not address this information? Do you have answers?

I am behind you and have others posts of yours that I have not answered. I will continue to answer them.

[Paul Ray]

Paul, this was an important post. You asked me to tell you what I thought. I would like your comments. I also want to understand how you see the scripture passages that I cited. Why will you not address this information? Do you have answers?

I am behind you and have others posts of yours that I have not answered. I will continue to answer them.

Have you ever been in a discussion with someone where it seemed you were explaining the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again, and the person you were explaining something to kept asking you to explain the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again?

Try imagining what it is like to be me.

If you want to continue having discussions with me, then please limit your questions to only one or two questions at a time, and then acknowledging that I have answered you after I have answered you.

I don't expect you to agree with me just because I say so, but I have explained my thoughts on this repeatedly. I hope sometime soon you will understand what I have said.

[Paul Ray]

Again, Paul lists prophets and teachers separately. He says we are different parts of one body. We have different gifts and different ways to serve. He says we are not all prophets. Is he right or wrong?

Paul was right when he said that not all of the people he was talking about were prophets. And please note that he was talking to certain people, not everyone who might happen to read his letter.

It is also true, though, that today not all people are prophets. Some people simply teach what other men have taught them, instead of learning from God, personally. But all people can be prophets, and all people could have been prophets even back in the days of our dear brother Paul.

When a person learns from God, personally, that person is then a prophet, and when a prophet teaches something that God taught him or her, personally, then he or she is prophesying.

A prophet is someone who has learned from God, personally, at a particular moment, and teaches what God has taught him or her.

A teacher is someone who has learned from Man, only, at a particular moment, and teaches what Man has taught him or her.

I have now repeated this yet again, for you. I hope you understand what I'm saying.

You don't have to agree with me, but this is what I know and believe.

You can believe whatever you want to believe.

[Freedom in Truth]

Paul - I am going to try to edit this reply to your long post so it isn't so long . . . wish me luck! Also, it would be good for you to know that I answer posts one at a time, which means there will be some crossing (I may ask something you have answered in a later post). Please ignore any repititions.

I would say that someone who hears God and is right once about what God has said, correctly understanding God's message, and then shares that message with another person is a true prophet, even if God never tells that person anything else.

I addressed much of this in Post #388. I would say your example would be of someone who received a prophecy, not someone who is a prophet.

When you ask yourself what a prophet is, and you're forming questions in your mind to understand this, try substituting the word teacher for the word prophet in your mind, while understanding that a prophet is a teacher who God has inspired... rather than simply teaching what God has taught someone else.

Being a teacher inspired by God means to me that God has given you a gift for understanding information and being able to impart it to others. Sure, a teacher should know God and be walking with Him - but that doesnâ??t make him a prophet. Paul lists teachers and prophets separately.

If you're only repeating what prophets taught, without any revelation from God to yourself, personally, then I would call you a teacher instead of a prophet... in each of those specific instances.

I would agree. I just donâ??t agree that a prophet teaches as much as you think he does. I would say a prophet communicates a message . . . that is not teaching per se.

Christ is God, if you understand what I mean when I say that. The person Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob knew as their God, is the person who we know as Jesus Christ. It is true that when Christ was here, He taught us about His Father, and His Father is a different person, but whether the OT prophets referred to the person who would come as Jesus Christ, or God, it was the very same person.

And at least one of the reasons they all taught that He would be coming was because they wanted us to know God, personally.

I understand that Christ is God, but if you believe the Mormon view then I donâ??t think we share the same understanding. (We would have to discuss this further to be clear.) Are you saying that the OT prophets believed Jesus and God were the same person but Jesus taught that he and God were different persons?

I think you misunderstood Zakuska. I don't think he meant that God's prophets spoke falsely, at least not when they were speaking for God. But prophets are also human, and they can still make mistakes. Not everything they say is inspired by God, personally.

Zakuska said prophets lie, which to me would either mean that they heard from God and lied about it (and gave a different message) or they did not hear from God but lied and said they did (and gave a false message). Also, there is a difference between being wrong and lying.

If I knew you planted flowers, I would call you a gardener, even if you weren't the best gardener in all of the world.

I believe everyone is a prophet, to the extent they are prophets. I believe God has taught everyone at least one thing during life. Everything good comes from God.

Everything good comes from God, but it may not come directly from God. We disagree on the definition of such words as â??gardenerâ?, but what is most important is what the Bible says

I know people are more especially gifted in certain areas, or have certain things they are especially good at doing. But you can have more than one gift, and you can improve the gifts you have. If you're not good at something, you can practive and become even better.

I wouldnâ??t say you â??practiceâ? a close relationship with God. I wouldnâ??t say you â??practiceâ? to know God more intimately. Would you â??practiceâ? to know me better? No, a better relationship means you devote more time to being with God, studying what God revealed and said to others, and OBEYING God. And spiritual gifts come from a close relationship with God. The more you know God the better and clearer you hear His voice.

And, I see a difference between a gift and a talent or opportunity. I donâ??t know how much you know about music, but some musicians have â??perfect pitchâ? - ability to hear a note and know which note it is (A, B, C, etc.). It is nothing they practiced or ever need to practice - they just have the gift - you play a note and they tell you what it is. Other musicians can develop good â??relative pitchâ? - they practice and listen and can get pretty good at guessing which note it is - but this is never like â??perfect pitchâ?. A gift is just given - if you have the gift of interpreting tongues you can just do it. A talent means you have a special ability for a skill but you need to practice the skill to excel at it. A talent gives you an opportunity - you can develop your talent. But with a gift you already have the skill.

A spiritual gift gives you a skill. And, the gift helps you and the body of Christ know God better. When you interpret tongues you are not practicing but using your gift. (It is not like studying Russian and practicing speaking Russian - it is more like suddenly being able to speak in Russian.)

Paul, below, says not all will prophesy.

At this moment, not all are, are they. But we can develop our gifts that God has given us. Not all at once, suddenly, but over time, gradually.

Paul never says eventually all will be prophets. Paul says we receive different spiritual gifts and we are different parts of the body of Christ. A hand never becomes a head, and practicing wonâ??t help.

Again, in Ephesians 4:11, Pauls says that some will be prophets -

I believe it would be more correct to say that He was saying that some already are prophets, and apostles, etc. And over time, there will be others with specific gifts. And also over time the people who at one time were not very gifted will become even better with their gifts.

Practice, practice, practice. There's no good reason why we should ever stop trying.

... but please don't fake it. Some of us know how to tell who has the real thing.

I donâ??t understand how you put your interpretation of prophets and other spiritual gifts with 1 Corinthians 12. Paul is explaining that we are all different but we all need each other. He never says we will be or can be the same. Would you please read the chapter and explain your interpretation?

If your last line above was aimed at me - I have not claimed spiritual gifts, therefore I am not faking having any. I devote myself to a relationship with God and walking each day with Him. Your ability to tell who has the real thing is back to the question of this thread - how do we discern what we hear. As far as I can tell you say you hear from God because you believe you hear from God and you are not deceived or mistaken because you donâ??t believe you are deceived or mistaken. Everything rests on your personal identification of the voice you hear. Even if you were a traditional Christian I would say you have no solid ground to stand on. But we are addressing this in other posts.

One thing though - what if I said (like you) that I know Godâ??s voice. What if I said God told me you are not hearing from Him and that you need to find the one True God? Since I believe I am hearing from God I canâ??t be wrong, right? (since this is your reasoning) So, would you think I am hearing from God? Why or why not?

... the problem I have with JS - he told people to follow a different god (by telling them that the God of traditional Christianity of his day presented God wrongly).

This is an example of what I would call a false teaching... what you, yourself, are saying right here.

Joseph didn't tell people to follow a different god, or God. Our (LDS) God is the same God other Christians worship. We (LDS) simply know more about God than you and other Christians do now, or actually, more than you will accept.

And it is you, and others like you, who say we (LDS) have a different God... and I personally know that what you are saying is false. I was once in another church, before I became a member of this church, and I never did switch the God I worship. I simply know more now than I once did about God.

The LDS God has different characteristics from the traditional Christian God. You donâ??t know more about God - you know differently about God. God was either once a man like us or He wasnâ??t. God is either without beginning or created. God is either one of many gods or the only God. Knowing more about God shouldnâ??t negate what was already known.

If JS knew and taught the same God then he would not have had to claim that the Bible was altered. He didnâ??t just add information - he changed information.

I donâ??t think JS would claim to be equal to Jesus as a prophet, would he?

No, he wouldn't. It was Jesus who taught Joseph, but not all that Jesus knew. I think it will take forever to learn as much as Jesus knows now.

If Jesus taught JS then Jesus either lied to JS or lied to his disciples.

I would prefer to phrase it like this:

Anything anyone says should be tested with any and everything God has already said, and what God says now trumps what God said in the past.

Example: At one time God told us to offer animal sacrifices. At this time that is no longer necessary.

Blood must be shed for sin to be forgiven. The Law (sacrificial system) was a shadow of Christâ??s perfect sacrifice. The principle (truth) stands - blood must be shed for sin to be forgiven.

New revelations should not contradict past revelations. Your â??new revelationâ? says blood does not have to be shed for all sin to be forgiven since all sin (but your original sin) is not covered by blood but by your repentance and good works. That is a contradiction in principle.

What is your basis for believing that God spoke to JS?

Actually, there is no office of "prophet". Every member of the Church is, or at least should be, a prophet.

The President of the Church is the prophet for the whole church. He is the one the Lord talks to about the Church... to guide him about how to direct and govern in it.

I would say that your President holds the office of â??prophetâ?. Also, you have 12 Apostles as prophets.

â??Latter-day Saints sustain the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles as prophets.â? (Gospel Principles, Chapter 9)

Heh, you seem to want to avoid calling anyone a "prophet", and instead want to refer to them as being "prophetic" or "people who prophesize".

I take the title of â??prophetâ? very seriously. I do not believe it should be used lightly.

"What Is a Prophet?

A prophet is a man called by God to be his representative on earth. When a prophet speaks for God, it is as if God were speaking. A prophet is also a special witness for Christ, testifying of His divinity and teaching His gospel. A prophet teaches truth and interprets the word of God. He calls the unrighteous to repentance. He receives revelations and directions from the Lord for our benefit. He may see into the future and foretell coming events so that the world may be warned." (Gospel Principles, Chapter 9)

Do you agree with the above?

Why limit ourselves to the Bible, only? God is there, and we can ask God anything, personally.

How do you even know the Holy Bible is actually the word of God?

Did you just believe what someone told you? Was that person God?

I never just believe anyone when they tell me something without checking with God first, to know it's true.

What God says now shouldnâ??t contradict what He said before. God does not change. He is all-knowing so He doesnâ??t need to correct a past misunderstanding or mistake. So though I donâ??t limit myself to the Bible, everything needs to line up with the Truth in the Bible.

If I told you God told me that all your sins were covered and forgiven with Jesusâ?? death on the cross and that you could not â??earnâ? exaltation would you believe I heard from God? Why or why not?

I do not believe anything because some person told me. If I said I believed the Bible is actually the word of God because God told me, would you believe God told me this?

My issue, Paul, is that you check everything with a voice you believe is God, but you established that the voice is God based only on what you think and feel. You tell me you know you can be wrong and you can be deceived - then you tell me you canâ??t be wrong or deceived when it comes to your discernment of the voice you hear. How does this make sense?

Heh, you may think I am gullible to believe what I believe about God, but I learned what I know from God, personally.

You seem to believe the Bible just because other people told you it's "God's word". I may be wrong, but that is the way you come across.

I hope you will someday realize God can teach you, personally.

You don't have to just believe what others tell you... including what I am telling you here and now. And I also don't have to just believe you when you tell me something. I can check with God, personally, always.

I do not easily buy what others tell me. I would think this would be apparent to you already! I do a lot of thinking and praying and research, etc. before I accept anything. If that were not the case I would easily believe you, right?

IF I thought you were gullible (which I do not) I would think you gullible in only one area - determining whose voice you are hearing. Maybe I would think you easily believe yourself. A balance is probably best.

A standard should be able to check what you think you hear and who you think you are hearing from. As you know, people can believe anything. Someone believing something doesnâ??t make the belief valid. If I believe green grass is lavender I am wrong. It wouldnâ??t matter who I thought told me this (another person, a voice in my head, what I think is God, etc.) - it is wrong.

If I told you God does teach me personally would you believe me? You have already seemed to indicate that you donâ??t think I hear from God, and that is fine for you to think. But, how do you determine this?

[Freedom in Truth]

I don't think you need copyrights to include references to or brief excerpts from another work. ("Brief", of course, being interpreted relative to the size of the excerpt relative to the total work.) I'm sure that the excerpts of the JST that are footnoted and in the appendixes of the LDS Quad are fully legal.

Interesting. I guess the people who own the copyright donâ??t mind?

I imagine that if God were to command us to use the JST exclusively instead of the KJV in our teachings that he would command us to do it in a legal way. I just searched on Amazon, and it seems you can buy the JST there, so I don't see any need for us to publish it if somebody else already is.

It seems to me that God already commanded you all to use the JST, and that would make the use of the KJV redundant.

Wasnâ??t it JSâ??s wife who didnâ??t give the JST to LDS church leaders? Would you say she was disobedient to God because her act made it impossible for the LDS to publish the work? However, time passed between the JST being finished and JSâ??s death - why wasnâ??t it published before his death? When JSâ??s other works were finished (BoM, D&C, PoGP) they were published . . . why was the JST different?

[Freedom in Truth]

Freedom,

Rather than just quote what you said and what I said previously I'll try to summarize what I have been trying to tell you, or at least the points I don't think you understand. You can keep asking me questions, though, if you want to know what I think. I will answer you in the best way I can think of.

Thanks. However, we must remember that not understanding and not agreeing are two different things.

I believe the reason the JST is not included in our (LDS) canon is because we didn't have the copyright to it, and we still don't have the copyright. I believe Joseph Smith had the copyright and then after he died... HE WAS MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD... it was then passed to his family, his wife and his children. I may be wrong, but I don't think the Church has ever had the copyright for the whole book. We do print a few selections, but we don't have the copyright for the book. We simply give a few quotes to what is written in the JST.

Yes, I would think JS had the copyright - he wrote it. Why wasnâ??t it published when it was finished? That was many years before JS died. The BoM, D&C, and the PoGP were written and published . . . why was the JST different?

It seems to be unclear what exactly happened at the jail. I have read many versions. But it is clear that Mormons destroyed property. I donâ??t recall Jesus disobeying the laws of the land.

I try to be in line with everything they try to teach me when I want to know what it is the Church teaches, and I always seek God's inspiration as I learn, but you are now hearing from me as only a member of the Church. I'm a volunteer, not one of the leaders. I do have a calling, and in that I am a leader, but I answer to the official leaders of the Church.

You have been telling me you hear from God and He teaches you. Now you say you try to be in line with what the church teaches. I am assuming that you believe what God teaches you matches what your church teaches. But, do you hear from God and find out the church teaches the same, or do you hear the church teaching and check it with God? Do you ever hear anything from God that does not match your church?

What if everything matches now but the church changes a teaching tomorrow because of â??new revelationâ?? Would that mean that God taught you something wrong?

Why donâ??t you answer to God? You have said over and over that you learn from God and not from other people . . . yet you answer to church leaders? I feel you have just contradicted yourself.

I hope you now understand what I believe.

If you ever want to know the truth, you can simply ask God. Right now you're only learning from me.

... from what I know and believe God has taught me, personally, with maybe a few things that are simply my own opinion.

I believe I know Truth. I am not learning from you other than learning what you believe. You are learning what I believe. We are not learning truth from each other because we are not taking each otherâ??s knowledge as Truth.

[Paul Ray]

Freedom in Truth,

Just a few points in your last post to me stood out as issues I hadn't addressed yet, or at least not as much as I had the other thoughts. I would like to respond to those thoughts just to help you try to understand what I know.

I understand that Christ is God, but if you believe the Mormon view then I donâ??t think we share the same understanding. (We would have to discuss this further to be clear.) Are you saying that the OT prophets believed Jesus and God were the same person but Jesus taught that he and God were different persons?

I am saying that the God the OT prophets knew was the person we now know as Jesus Christ, because that is the only God who ever communicated with them. Since the fall of Adam and Eve, our Father has always spoken through His mediator, who is Jesus Christ.

I wouldnâ??t say you â??practiceâ? a close relationship with God. I wouldnâ??t say you â??practiceâ? to know God more intimately. Would you â??practiceâ? to know me better? No, a better relationship means you devote more time to being with God, studying what God revealed and said to others, and OBEYING God. And spiritual gifts come from a close relationship with God. The more you know God the better and clearer you hear His voice.

The word "practice" was just a word I pulled out of thin air. God didn't inspire me to use that word, specifically. What I meant was that if we want to develop our abilities, we should use them and keep using them, repeatedly. If we stop using them we might lose those abilities. Even our faith from God must be exercised, and if we don't excerise it, we may lose it.

I donâ??t understand how you put your interpretation of prophets and other spiritual gifts with 1 Corinthians 12. Paul is explaining that we are all different but we all need each other. He never says we will be or can be the same. Would you please read the chapter and explain your interpretation?

I think we should "covet earnestly the best gifts" as well as a better way to know and become like God.

I devote myself to a relationship with God and walking each day with Him. Your ability to tell who has the real thing is back to the question of this thread - how do we discern what we hear. As far as I can tell you say you hear from God because you believe you hear from God and you are not deceived or mistaken because you donâ??t believe you are deceived or mistaken. Everything rests on your personal identification of the voice you hear. Even if you were a traditional Christian I would say you have no solid ground to stand on. But we are addressing this in other posts.

Yes, we have addressed this in other posts, but I am also still addressing it as I speak to you now. The only way to know God is to know God, personally. There is no other way to know God... which means that in the end, our discussions will be pointless. The only way you will know that I am sharing the truth is if God tells you or assures you, personally.

One thing though - what if I said (like you) that I know Godâ??s voice. What if I said God told me you are not hearing from Him and that you need to find the one True God? Since I believe I am hearing from God I canâ??t be wrong, right? (since this is your reasoning) So, would you think I am hearing from God? Why or why not?

I don't really know if you have learned from God, personally, or not. You may only be repeating what other people have told you, because you believe what they have told you makes sense. I do know that I know some things that you don't know, concerning Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, for instance, and that I have learned about those things from God, personally.

The LDS God has different characteristics from the traditional Christian God. You donâ??t know more about God - you know differently about God. God was either once a man like us or He wasnâ??t. God is either without beginning or created. God is either one of many gods or the only God. Knowing more about God shouldnâ??t negate what was already known.

I think you should try using the word AND more than the word OR. For instance:

God (Jesus Christ) was once a man like us AND He really wasn't (because He was perfect and sinless, and we are not).

God (Jesus Christ) is without beginning AND He was created in the form of Man, just like the rest of us.

God (Jesus Christ) is one of many gods persons who are God AND the only God Man has known or communicated with since the fall of Adam and Eve AND not the only person who is God, because our Father and the Holy Ghost are ALSO God.

You'll find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

-Ben Kenobi, Return of the Jedi

If JS knew and taught the same God then he would not have had to claim that the Bible was altered. He didnâ??t just add information - he changed information.

Yes, but the information he changed was the information God told him to change to restore gospel truths.

If Jesus taught JS then Jesus either lied to JS or lied to his disciples.

Or, maybe, you just don't correctly understand how the teachings God gave us through Joseph Smith are in harmony with the teachings of God's other prophets, even though some of those teachings do not agree with some other teachings of mere men.

Yeah, that's the ticket. Let's go with that one.

Why do you believe what you believe, my brother. Who has told you that you know the truth?

What is your basis for believing that God spoke to JS?

God has personally assured me that God spoke to Joseph Smith, personally.

I would say that your President holds the office of â??prophetâ?. Also, you have 12 Apostles as prophets.

Perhaps you didn't hear me. Or maybe you just don't believe me. There is no "office" called "prophet".

Prophet is just a word we use to refer to someone who has learned from and about God, personally.

â??Latter-day Saints sustain the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles as prophets.â? (Gospel Principles, Chapter 9)

Yes, we do. And we also sustain them as seers and revelators,

But their office is as an apostle of our Lord, Jesus Christ. They were prophets before they were ordained to that office.

"What Is a Prophet?

A prophet is a man called by God to be his representative on earth. When a prophet speaks for God, it is as if God were speaking. A prophet is also a special witness for Christ, testifying of His divinity and teaching His gospel. A prophet teaches truth and interprets the word of God. He calls the unrighteous to repentance. He receives revelations and directions from the Lord for our benefit. He may see into the future and foretell coming events so that the world may be warned." (Gospel Principles, Chapter 9)

Do you agree with the above?

Yes, I do. I believe I qualify as a prophet using that description, and I believe many other people do too.

What God says now shouldnâ??t contradict what He said before. God does not change. He is all-knowing so He doesnâ??t need to correct a past misunderstanding or mistake. So though I donâ??t limit myself to the Bible, everything needs to line up with the Truth in the Bible.

Yes, and I believe it does. You may interpret the Bible differently than I do, but I still believe I interpret the Bible correctly.

My issue, Paul, is that you check everything with a voice you believe is God, but you established that the voice is God based only on what you think and feel. You tell me you know you can be wrong and you can be deceived - then you tell me you canâ??t be wrong or deceived when it comes to your discernment of the voice you hear. How does this make sense?

How does it not make sense?

I can be deceived, as you can, but I can still know the truth, as you can.

Do you believe you can know the truth, sometimes, even though you can also be deceived, sometimes?

What say you?

If I told you God does teach me personally would you believe me? You have already seemed to indicate that you donâ??t think I hear from God, and that is fine for you to think. But, how do you determine this?

I never said that I don't believe you are not learning from God. I've simply said that I don't know if you have. Even when you say something that I agree with, you may only be repeating what someone other than God has taught you. At this point I can only say that God hasn't helped to teach you about some of the things that I know.

[Paul Ray]

Why donâ??t you answer to God?

I do. And I also answer to His authorized representatives... once I know they are His representatives.

You have said over and over that you learn from God and not from other people . . . yet you answer to church leaders? I feel you have just contradicted yourself.

I ask for God's assurance concerning what anyone and everyone tells me, even when I am hearing from people I know are God's authorized representatives. And I answer to my leaders in the Church because I know they are God's representatives on this Earth.

I believe I know Truth. I am not learning from you other than learning what you believe. You are learning what I believe. We are not learning truth from each other because we are not taking each otherâ??s knowledge as Truth.

So what is the point of discussing the subject of this thread with each other?

I agree that I am learning about you as I hear from you, but I am also learning about the truths you are sharing with me, because I am asking God for His assurances concerning what you are sharing with me.

I think I am sharing more truth than you are sharing with me, but I still am learning a thing or two about the truth as I hear what you are sharing with me.

... I particularly liked that part about having talents, and a true pitch, or whatever you called it.

Do you think some people are more gifted with the ability to know the truth than some other people?

[Freedom in Truth]

Except if you remember the story of Daniel... it was an Unalterable decree that ended him up in the Lions den. So thus we see the difference between Israels God and the God of the Babylonians/Pagans. One was a living breathing being who had "dialog" with his people and the other was a God who was set in stone and an Idol.

Daniel 6:7b-9 . . . the king should issue an edict and enforce the decree that anyone who prays to any god or man during the next thirty days, except to you, O king, shall be thrown into the lions' den. Now, O king, issue the decree and put it in writing so that it cannot be alteredâ??in accordance with the laws of the Medes and Persians, which cannot be repealed." So King Darius put the decree in writing.

This decree had nothing to do with a pagan god - it could not be repealed under the laws of the Medes and Persians.