How Can We Know When We Hear

[Freedom in Truth]

Really? What about in Job? Or 1 Kings 22:22?

I was using â??walk with Himâ? as a picture of relationship. I think you are using relationship in a more general sense. We relate to all sorts of people without â??walkingâ? with them. I relate to a cashier but I donâ??t ever â??walkâ? with him or her. Do demons walk with God?

They don't? They sure do seem to take heed when you invoke his name in an exorcision.

I was thinking of Godâ??s commandments here - the ways we obey Him as we walk with Him. Of course, all demons are subject to God and He is sovereign. When forced to obey they do, as a thief is forced to put down the stolen TV when held at gunpoint. But demons donâ??t want to obey God - they do not freely obey Him. Considering the definition â??Obedience is the willingness to follow the will of othersâ?? demons do not â??obeyâ?.

Thanks for leading me to clarify.

[Freedom in Truth]

My comments are that you have picked the single most subjective criteria for defining a prophet that one could imagine.

If a prophet teaches you a doctrine of God different from the apostate Trinitarian formula of the 4th century Catholic church, you conclude he is leading you after "other gods" and denounce him as a false prophet.

I am thinking you are on thin ice with this one.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I thought we were discussing salvation by belief only, as you phrased it. I would like to hear your comments on this subject. After that, if you want to discuss your above comments, that is fine. May we discuss salvation first?

[consiglieri]

I thought we were discussing salvation by belief only, as you phrased it. I would like to hear your comments on this subject. After that, if you want to discuss your above comments, that is fine. May we discuss salvation first?

We were discussing salvation by belief only.

Then you changed the subject to talk about prophets leading us away after "other gods."

I responded to your change of subject, and now you say you want to discuss salvation first.

Salvation by belief alone is an unbiblical innovation that didn't come into being until at least 1,500 years or so after Christ.

Not a distinguished pedigree.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Freedom in Truth]

Bump.

Because I am interested in seeing FIT's response.

I just remembered that I discussed Deuteronomy 13:1-4 and answered your salvation question in my post #468. I guess I was thinking we were agreeing on the prophet issue - though I was really interested in your comments on salvation. We do agree that a true prophet does not lead one away from the True God. I, in that post, did not bring up my thoughts on JS.

Consiglieri - I will always answer your posts. I keep track of where I am in a thread so I will see your posts. However, I am not able to be on the internet as much as you seem to be, so sometimes I will not answer your posts immediately!

[Freedom in Truth]

We were discussing salvation by belief only.

Then you changed the subject to talk about prophets leading us away after "other gods."

I responded to your change of subject, and now you say you want to discuss salvation first.

Salvation by belief alone is an unbiblical innovation that didn't come into being until at least 1,500 years or so after Christ.

Not a distinguished pedigree.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Here is the original post -

Consiglieri - It looks like this thread is setting some kind of record for length! Kudos to all.

I would like to weigh in on the original question by saying that I think one can know that a particular doctrine is of "demons" if it leads away from Christ and away from following Christ's example.

As such, I would think the doctrine that belief alone is necessary for salvation, regardless of what one does, would be a prime candidate for a "doctrine of (3 demons)

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Freedom in Truth - I agree - a â??doctrine of demonsâ? would lead away from knowing the True Christ.

Deuteronomy 13:1-4 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him.

I like this passage because it says that a prophet can correctly foretell a sign or wonder yet be a false prophet - we will know because he will lead people to follow other gods. (He could even give his false god the name of Jesus, yet he presents a different Jesus!)

I would not exactly say that â??Belief alone is necessary for salvation, regardless of what one doesâ?. What one does shows what one believes - our thoughts and actions are interwoven. Who would believe that I LOVED cheesecake if I never chose to have it when I am ordering dessert? (assuming that I am not on a diet or allergic to cheese, etc.)

Good works DONâ??T save us, but they do generally show where our heart is. If we are walking with God there will usually be outward signs. Good works show our relationship and obedience, and they increase our strength and maturity - but they do not provide salvation. Do you see the difference?

As you can see, our first subject was doctrine leading away us away from Christ (and God). Since doctrine (teaching) is quite linked with prophets, I thought of the Deuteronomy verse (which also had to do with "leading away from God"). This was not changing the subject in my mind but expanding on it. I am learning that you think differently from me! This will help me communicate with you so it's all good.

Considering that I did not mean to change your subject, let's talk about the doctrine of salvation. Salvation by faith alone - not by works - is Biblical. Good works showing your faith - what's going on inside of you - is Biblical as well.

[consiglieri]

Considering that I did not mean to change your subject, let's talk about the doctrine of salvation. Salvation by faith alone - not by works - is Biblical. Good works showing your faith - what's going on inside of you - is Biblical as well.

If the doctrine of salvation by faith alone, or "solafidianism," is biblical, why do we have no accounts of Christians believing it until 1500 years after Jesus?

Please cite to one Church Father or other early Christian before Luther who understood the New Testament in the way that you do.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[TrashcanMan79]

Well, no - not really.

Yes, actually, really. You are asserting the biblical text has been written by the authors held by tradition. While I agree the Bible is the work of many hands over centuries, I don't think it was necessarily written by your 'king, military leader, herdsman, cupbearer to a pagan king, prime minister, physician, fisherman, tax collector, etc'.... What I have read regarding authorship of the various books of the Bible is that no one knows for sure who wrote many (if not most) of them.

Even if the authors of some books are debated - even if you think more books are written by one author instead of various authors - you still have a considerable time span with many different authors, etc.

Not 'even if' authorship is debated; even though authorship is debated!

But yes, I agree with your statement.

Your link above says the page has vanished and is not found.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/far...html#continuity (if it should fail to work for you again, you can just copy and paste the URL.)

As far as your signature links - would you like to point out one subject or article to begin with?

I was referring to the links under the 'Does the Bible Contain Contradictions' heading.

Are the contradictions concerning details or major doctrines?

That would be in the eye of the beholder, probably.

I didnâ??t think we finished the issue of holiness yet.

It may take me some time to read through everything you have written.

[Paul Ray]

It IS difficult to continue dialogue when we both believe that the other is not hearing from God. It is also difficult to know who is hearing from God and who is not if only spiritual experiences are used as a basis. I have tried to look at issues using brain-power (logic) instead of just spiritual experiences, but you do not want to do this. I am, of course, not going to just take your word, and that is all you have to offer me.

When I said I wouldn't respond to you any more in this thread, I was specifically thinking that I didn't, and still don't, want to continue talking with you as we have been, but I do want you to understand where I am coming from.

When I said that I don't stand on anything but my spiritual experiences, I was referring to what I stand on, not on occasional thoughts I sometimes have as I examine ideas while pondering and using logic to understand what I'm thinking. I do those things too, Freedom in Truth, but I don't "stand on" my logic or my own reasoning. I always ask God to help me understand what God wants me to understand, and when God tells me I then stand on what God tells me... and that is always a spiritual experience to me, personally.

Your â??truthâ? does not line up with any of the many sources of Truth that I have. And your â??truthâ? canâ??t even be tested in any way. That, to me, is a dangerous place to be in.

"My truth" is not "my truth". I stand on the truth God helps me to understand.

And yes, you can also do what I have done, my brother.

You can ask God to help you understand what God understands.

I would never give up dialoging with you, but I respect your wishes to stop. Know that I will never give up on you and that I too love you VERY much. You will always be in my prayers.

Freedom in Truth

I never said I will stop dialoging, or talking, with you. I said I don't want to continue as we have been.

The most I can do is tell you what I understand on certain issues, and I have already covered this topic repeatedly.

The way I know what doctrine is of God and what doctrine is of demons is to ask God and have God tell me, personally.

You don't have to agree with me for me to know what God is telling me.

You can think what you want to think about anything, and everything.

[TrashcanMan79]

And your â??truthâ? canâ??t even be tested in any way. That, to me, is a dangerous place to be in.

I agree. You derive truth from the bible, correct? And you believe it is dangerous to hold to 'truth' that cannot be tested, correct? How do you test the miraculous claims of the bible (virgin birth, resurrection, violations of the laws of physics [walking on water, transportation into closed rooms, parting bodies of water] creation of woman from a rib, talking donkey, etc)?

[consiglieri]

If the doctrine of salvation by faith alone, or "solafidianism," is biblical, why do we have no accounts of Christians believing it until 1500 years after Jesus?

Please cite to one Church Father or other early Christian before Luther who understood the New Testament in the way that you do.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Just thought I would repost this question inasmuch as you haven't responded to it yet.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Neighbor]

If the doctrine of salvation by faith alone, or "solafidianism," is biblical, why do we have no accounts of Christians believing it until 1500 years after Jesus?

Please cite to one Church Father or other early Christian before Luther who understood the New Testament in the way that you do.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Peter, Paul, James and Jude were clear that faith and works go hand in hand, but that the works were a result of faith, ergo by faith alone, for faith alone can bring the works of God to action, but that we are not saved by our works, but the work of Jesus on the cross dieing for our sins, and the resurrection of Jesus from the dead proving the sacrifice was accepted by God.

[Neighbor]

I agree. You derive truth from the bible, correct? And you believe it is dangerous to hold to 'truth' that cannot be tested, correct? How do you test the miraculous claims of the bible (virgin birth, resurrection, violations of the laws of physics [walking on water, transportation into closed rooms, parting bodies of water] creation of woman from a rib, talking donkey, etc)?

That is why it is important to base our faith in Jesus on what He taught. He said we could know what He taught was the commandment of God by doing what He said. The knowing is in the doing.

[Neighbor]

Back to my intent in the question, even Moses gave commandment of God concerning familiar spirits, divination and the such like and put the matter back to keeping the commandments of God given through Moses. Then Jesus proves He has the authority to take matters of faith to the real level and says to do what He taught us as well that our righteousness exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees.

As Jesus taught that the knowing is in the doing of His teachings, could it be wrong to think proof is in something else? (burning in the bosum)

We can feel the leading of Gods spirit convicting us to believe and do the will of God, but sometimes things are not clear and we need to constantly be about confirming what we do is of the faith Jesus said we are to have if we are indeed His disciples and that we are abiding in Him and He in us by His Spirit - that we be of one accord.

Even Satan tried to get Jesus to do that which was against the word of God by using the word of God and misapplying it. We need to be careful we first listen to God and don't do things against what He has told us. Demons and familiar spirits will twist the commandments of God to destroy our faith if that were possible. Our only hope is in abiding in Christ and what He said.

[TrashcanMan79]

That is why it is important to base our faith in Jesus on what He taught. He said we could know what He taught was the commandment of God by doing what He said. The knowing is in the doing.

Hey Neighbor. Thanks for your post. Your answer is not unlike the responses given by Paul Ray that prompted FIT's comment that his holding to beliefs that are untestable is dangerous. So naturally I am curious as to how FIT will answer my question.

[Freedom in Truth]

If the doctrine of salvation by faith alone, or "solafidianism," is biblical, why do we have no accounts of Christians believing it until 1500 years after Jesus?

Please cite to one Church Father or other early Christian before Luther who understood the New Testament in the way that you do.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Some quotes -

CLEMENT OF ROME (1st Century) â??And we, therefore are not justified of ourselves or by our wisdom or insight or religious devotion or the holy deeds we have done from the heart, but by that faith by which almighty God has justified all men from the very beginning." (The Letter of the Church of Rome to the Church of Corinth, Ch 32:4, A.D. 96)

"All the ancient fathers descended from Abraham, both before the Law and under the Law, were glorified and magnified, not through themselves, nor through their works of righteousness which they had done, but through His will. Therefore we, also, being called through His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves, neither through our own wisdom, or understanding, or piety, or works which we have done in holiness of heart, but through faith, that faith through which the Almighty God hath justified all that ever lived; to whom be glory for ever, Amen!" (Epistle to the Corinthians, 32, A.D. 98)

IGNATIUS (1st Century) - "The prophets also do we love, because they have announced the Gospel; and they hoped in him and awaited him. In him and by their faith in him they were saved, being united to Jesus Christ." (Letter to the Philadelphians)

POLYCARP OF SMYRNA (1st/2nd Century) - "The Lord Jesus Christ, who endured to submit unto death for our sins; whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of hell; in whom ye believe, not having seen Him, but believing ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory.... knowing that through grace ye are saved, not of works, but by the will of God, through Jesus Christ." (Letter to the Philippians)

IRENAEUS (2nd Century) - "No one, indeed while placed out of reach of our Lord's benefits, has power to procure for himself the means of salvation" (Against Heresies, Bk. IV, ch. XIII)

ORIGEN (2nd / 3rd Century) - "The apostles saith, that the justification onely of faith sufficeth." (c.3. epist. ad. Roman. Quoted in Andrew Willet. Synopsis Papismi)

TERTULLIAN (2nd/3rd Century) - "We are made the sons of God by faith."

AMBROSE (4th Century) - "God chose that man should seek salvation by faith rather than by works, lest anyone should glory in his deeds and thereby incur sin." ( Ps. 43 Enarr. 14)

"They are justified by faith alone by the gift of God."

"He calls them blessed of whom God has decreed, without any labour or observation, they should be justified only by faith." (c.3. ad Roman)

CYRIL OF JERUSALEM (4th Century) - "A man by faith alone doth cleave unto Christ."

"We should not think to be justified by work, nor hope for grace by our merits, but by faith." (lib. 10. in Ioan. c. 18)

"We should not think to be justified by work, nor hope for grace by our merits, but by faith." (l. 4. in Ioan. c. 51)

CHRYSOSTOM (4th Century) - "If you believe faith, why do you bring other things in, as though faith alone sufficed not to justify?"

BASIL (4th Century) - "He doth know himself only justified by faith in Christ." (homil. de humility)

[Freedom in Truth]

Just thought I would repost this question inasmuch as you haven't responded to it yet.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

It was a good question, Consiglieri. A very interesting question. Sorry I was absent a few days - I had a prayer conference. But, unless I lose electricity or die or some other such thing happens that prevents me from answering, I will always answer you.

Freedom in Truth

[selek]

It was a good question, Consiglieri. A very interesting question. Sorry I was absent a few days - I had a prayer conference. But, unless I lose electricity or die or some other such thing happens that prevents me from answering, I will always answer you.

Freedom in Truth

Hmmm.....out of all of the above, I sincerely hope that a prayer conference is the most common complication you have to deal with when answering Consig or posting on these boards.

Try to avoid the last one though- it seems to be exceedingly terminal .

[Doctor Steuss]

Thanks for hooking up the quotes FIT. I canâ??t speak for the others, but Iâ??m not sure that Clement totally believed in a Faith alone type thingy. Either that, or he had a hard time articulating it (which is certainly possible).

1 Clement 30:3 (Translated by J.B. Lightfoot) -- [emphasis mine]

Let us therefore cleave unto those to whom grace is given from God.

Let us clothe ourselves in concord, being lowly minded and temperate,

holding ourselves aloof from all back biting and evil speaking, being

justified by works and not by words.

[Paul Ray]

Back to my intent in the question, even Moses gave commandment of God concerning familiar spirits, divination and the such like and put the matter back to keeping the commandments of God given through Moses. Then Jesus proves He has the authority to take matters of faith to the real level and says to do what He taught us as well that our righteousness exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees.

As Jesus taught that the knowing is in the doing of His teachings, could it be wrong to think proof is in something else? (burning in the bosum)

We can feel the leading of Gods spirit convicting us to believe and do the will of God, but sometimes things are not clear and we need to constantly be about confirming what we do is of the faith Jesus said we are to have if we are indeed His disciples and that we are abiding in Him and He in us by His Spirit - that we be of one accord.

Even Satan tried to get Jesus to do that which was against the word of God by using the word of God and misapplying it. We need to be careful we first listen to God and don't do things against what He has told us. Demons and familiar spirits will twist the commandments of God to destroy our faith if that were possible. Our only hope is in abiding in Christ and what He said.

I'm not sure that I understand what you're saying.

How do you know what Christ said, or says, without hearing from God, personally?

What did you mean when you made this comment:

As Jesus taught that the knowing is in the doing of His teachings, could it be wrong to think proof is in something else? (burning in the bosum)

Again, how do you know what Christ said, or says, without hearing from God, personally?

Do you just believe what people wrote in the writings that are now printed in the Holy Bible?

Why do you believe those writings? How do you know they are true?

Who or what is it that inspires you to believe in the Holy Bible?

I did agree with a few comments you made, but I'm not sure that I understand your message.

I'd just like to know why you believe what you believe.

... and I'm not interested in debating this issue with you.

[Freedom in Truth]

Yes, actually, really. You are asserting the biblical text has been written by the authors held by tradition. While I agree the Bible is the work of many hands over centuries, I don't think it was necessarily written by your 'king, military leader, herdsman, cupbearer to a pagan king, prime minister, physician, fisherman, tax collector, etc'.... What I have read regarding authorship of the various books of the Bible is that no one knows for sure who wrote many (if not most) of them.

â??While I agree the Bible is the work of many hands over centuriesâ? - That is the point. Perhaps it wasnâ??t a king or a fisherman (though some writers identify themselves) - it was still people of different walks of life over centuries. It is hard enough to get people of one profession from one country from one decade to agree (in fact, it is impossible). The Jews have a saying - â??Two Jews, three opinionsâ?!

Can it be DEFINITELY proven that the writers held by tradition DIDNâ??T write the various books?

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/far...html#continuity (if it should fail to work for you again, you can just copy and paste the URL.)

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/far...ill/unique.html I finally got this to work - I will read it and get back to you.

I was referring to the links under the 'Does the Bible Contain Contradictions' heading.

Yes - since there are so many I was wondering if you would point to one to start with.

[Freedom in Truth]

When I said I wouldn't respond to you any more in this thread, I was specifically thinking that I didn't, and still don't, want to continue talking with you as we have been, but I do want you to understand where I am coming from.

When I said that I don't stand on anything but my spiritual experiences, I was referring to what I stand on, not on occasional thoughts I sometimes have as I examine ideas while pondering and using logic to understand what I'm thinking. I do those things too, Freedom in Truth, but I don't "stand on" my logic or my own reasoning. I always ask God to help me understand what God wants me to understand, and when God tells me I then stand on what God tells me... and that is always a spiritual experience to me, personally.

"My truth" is not "my truth". I stand on the truth God helps me to understand.

And yes, you can also do what I have done, my brother.

You can ask God to help you understand what God understands.

I never said I will stop dialoging, or talking, with you. I said I don't want to continue as we have been.

The most I can do is tell you what I understand on certain issues, and I have already covered this topic repeatedly.

The way I know what doctrine is of God and what doctrine is of demons is to ask God and have God tell me, personally.

You don't have to agree with me for me to know what God is telling me.

You can think what you want to think about anything, and everything.

Paul, I believe I do understand your position and thoughts on this subject. You have your own opinion and that is O-K. We all have the freedom to choose what we will believe. I just believe that people should be able to support what they believe. And I definitely believe Truth can be tested - it can be questioned - and if it is Truth it will stand. It is fine for you that you believe you hear Godâ??s voice and the voice tells you he is God, but not everyone will believe this. If you want someone else to believe you you must offer them more. Do you have more?

The â??voiceâ? that I â??hearâ? tells me that you are a very sweet guy but you have truth mixed with untruth. This type of mixture is the most dangerous of all. I am concerned for you. That is why I ask you to confirm what you hear in another way (another way other than asking the voice who it is). If I am not believing Truth I want to know - that is why I am willing to test it.

I accept that you read something or hear something from someone else, then you take the idea to the voice you hear and ask if it is true or not. Then the voice tells you it is God. But for those people like me who are not convinced by this - do you have anything else to offer?

What God is telling me and what God is telling you should match, right? It certainly should not contradict.

Do you have any gum?

[Freedom in Truth]

I agree. You derive truth from the bible, correct? And you believe it is dangerous to hold to 'truth' that cannot be tested, correct? How do you test the miraculous claims of the bible (virgin birth, resurrection, violations of the laws of physics [walking on water, transportation into closed rooms, parting bodies of water] creation of woman from a rib, talking donkey, etc)?

I do derive truth from the Bible, but it is more complicated than the â??the Bible said it - I believe itâ? approach. I use my brain, given to me by God. I also use spiritual experiences tested by the Bible. I study history, Hebraic thought, writings of followers of God, etc. And if I hear something very relevant to NOW it can be confirming when I hear that someone else who lives in a different area than I do say the same thing when I did not tell them what I heard. I believe God speaks through many mediums - though Truth does not contradict.

I test what people claim (miraculous claims) by testing the credibility of their testimonies and the credibility of the source their claims are written in. But let me ask you this - how do you test that Julius Caesar lived? How do you know he really crossed the Rubicon? How do you test that Shakespeare lived? How can you know he actually penned the plays we attribute to him? How do you validate anything historical before cameras or movies?

[Freedom in Truth]

Hmmm.....out of all of the above, I sincerely hope that a prayer conference is the most common complication you have to deal with when answering Consig or posting on these boards.

Try to avoid the last one though- it seems to be exceedingly terminal .

You know, if this thread continues, I WILL eventually not answer because I have grown old and died!

[Doctor Steuss]

You know, if this thread continues, I WILL eventually not answer because I have grown old and died!

At the next prayer conference, pray to be translated.

[Paul Ray]

Paul, I believe I do understand your position and thoughts on this subject. You have your own opinion and that is O-K. We all have the freedom to choose what we will believe. I just believe that people should be able to support what they believe. And I definitely believe Truth can be tested - it can be questioned - and if it is Truth it will stand. It is fine for you that you believe you hear Godâ??s voice and the voice tells you he is God, but not everyone will believe this. If you want someone else to believe you you must offer them more. Do you have more?

First of all, I don't want anyone to just believe what I say about God... even though I know God has taught me, personally.

If you want to get to know God, then you should just get to know God... and I recommend that you get to know God, personally.

If you want to get to know me, then you should just get to know me... and I recommend that you get to know me, personally.

I have been learning about you as I have heard what you've told me.

And second of all, yes, I have more.

The â??voiceâ? that I â??hearâ? tells me that you are a very sweet guy but you have truth mixed with untruth.

Interesting. I am hearing pretty much the same thing about you.

If you are interested we can begin to discuss things that you believe are out of harmony with your beliefs, but I recommend that you start another thread to do that and just focus on one issue at a time.

I believe we have pretty much already covered this topic.

I accept that you read something or hear something from someone else, then you take the idea to the voice you hear and ask if it is true or not. Then the voice tells you it is God. But for those people like me who are not convinced by this - do you have anything else to offer?

After I tell you what God has told me, and share my understanding of the issue with you, what else do you expect me to do?

Do you expect me to somehow convince you that what I am saying is true?

Why would you believe me?

Just ask God.

What God is telling me and what God is telling you should match, right? It certainly should not contradict.

It should either match or be in harmony, yes, but what God tells me doesn't have to be the same exact thing that God has told or will tell you. And yes, there should also be no contractiction, if we are both talking and thinking of the same thing.

Pick any issue you want, and run with it... but in a different thread, please.

Do you have any gum?

No, not now. Do you want some?

I sometimes get in the mood for it, personally.

Which reminds me, I have some candy to eat. I got a Heath bar, after talking to MorningStar.