Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon

[grego]

I'm feeling lazy today...

In an article (at FARMS?) someone mentioned a part of the BoM, and a part of the JS translation of the Bible--the Lord's Prayer?--is given differently, and seemingly, they contradict. However, one is more literal translation of Hebrew, while the other is more the target language (English).

Anyone familiar with a native language, a target language, and learners of that language, along with the cultural and grammatical problems that seem to crop up more often than others, see much more in a text than those who aren't familiar with those things. I can often look at a sentence and, given three choices, tell what nationality wrote it, just by the handwriting (even though it's all English). Even more strongly, I can look at the grammar of a paragraph and tell which nationality probably wrote it, because of the mistakes in the target language.

As previously mentioned, I think the more we learn about those languages and cultures, and the more we apply it to the BoM text, the more we'll see in the BoM as it has been translated.

[Daniel Peterson]

I propose that this is evidence that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon from German.

Indeed, it may well suggest that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon from a language in which the adjective rent can function alone as implying a substantive like part.

German does this kind of thing commonly. So do Arabic and Hebrew. English much less commonly.

Nobody has seriously suggested German as the original language. Hebrew, however, has been suggested.

So has English, of course. These matters don't typically involve either/or dichotomies. Rather, they rest on hard-to-calculate judgments of probability, repeated many times.

[Sethbag]

These matters don't typically involve either/or dichotomies. Rather, they rest on hard-to-calculate judgments of probability, repeated many times.

Granted. I'd be a lot more inclined to rate the probability of the BoM having been translated from Hebrew a lot more highly if linguists could demonstrate that there was any evidence that any of the native American languages, written or spoken, bore any resemblance to Hebrew. I don't think you can have your cake (hebrew surviving 1000 years after Lehi's voyage on the American continent) and eat it too (justify all traces of hebrew disappearing in the subsequent 1600 years).

[Bernard Gui]

I think the Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon demonstrate more the way

Lehites thought and wrote.

Bernard

[Warship]

Seth Bag,

would poetical structures serve as evidence that a Native American language resembled hebrew thought.

BIBLE, BOOK OF MORMON and MAYAN CHIASMUS(popoul vuh)

In the Bible we read this chiasm from a direct Herbrew translation:

{1} SAVE me

{2} O my GOD

{3} For thou hast SMITTEN

{4} All my ENEMIES

{5} On the CHEEKBONE.

--------

{5} The TEETH

{4} Of the WICKED

{3} Thou hast BROKEN.

{2} To YAHWEH

{1} The SALVATION.

(Psalms 3:7-8 in Hebrew transliteration)

----------------------------------------------------

And in the Book of Mormon we read this chiasm:

(Men will drink damnation to their souls unless)

{1} They HUMBLE themselves

{2} and become as little CHILDREN

{3} believing that salvation is in the ATONING BLOOD OF CHRIST;

{4} for the NATURAL MAN

{5} is an enemy of GOD

{6} and HAS BEEN from the fall of Adam

--------

{6} and WILL BE forever and ever

{5} unless he yieldeth to the HOLY SPIRIT

{4} and putteth off the NATURAL MAN

{3} and becometh a saint through the ATONEMENT OF CHRIST

{2} and becometh as a CHILD

{1} submissive, meek and HUMBLE.

(Mosiah 3:18-19)

-----------------------------------------------------

And in the Popul Vuh of the Mayans we read this iasm:

{1} Oh HEART OF HEAVEN

{2} and once it had been CREATED

{3} the EARTH

{4} the MOUNTAINS and valleys

{5} the paths of the waters were DIVIDED

{6} and they proceded to twist along among the hills.

{5} So the rivers then became more DIVIDED

{4} as the great MOUNTAINS were appearing.

{3} And thus was the creation of the EARTH

{2} when it was CREATED by him

{1} who is the HEART OF HEAVEN.

There are many such chiastic structures in the Book of Mormon and in the Popol Vuh. The transmission of the ancient Hebrew form to the Maya may even be explained by the migrations documented in the Book of Mormon.

So there is a resemblance.

The book He Walked the Americas by taylor hanson, a nonlds, gives evidence that Jesus visited the Americas trying to prove at least one Jew influenced the Americas.

[Bernard Gui]

I've gone to the UVirginia e-library of early 19th-century American

literature and done a search for "if" followed

within 40 characters by "and." I chose a number of hits randomly, and

none of them had the "if/and=if/then" construction Dr. Peterson refers to.

Granted this is not an exhaustive study, but it does show the "if/and"

construction was not commonly used.

Bernard

[EDIT: Reading the above, I realize there could be some confusion over

what I looked at. I checked every match found in the following works, ie.,

63 matches in Cummins, 43 in Twain, 44 in Wallace, etc. Sorry if there was any

misunderstanding.]

Cummins, Maria S. (Maria Susanna), 1827-1866: The Lamplighter. : 63 matches

Twain, Mark, 1835-1910: The Innocents Abroad; or, The New Pilgrim's Progress. : 43 matches

Wallace, Lew, 1827-1905. : The Fair God; or, The Last of the 'Tzins. A Tale of the Conquest of Mexico. : 44 matches

Ingraham, J. H. (Joseph Holt), 1809-1860 : The Prince of the House of David; or, Three Years in the Holy City. Being a Series of the Letters of Adina...and relating, as by an eye witness, all the scenes and wonderful incidents in the life of Jesus of Nazareth, from his baptism in Jordan to his crucifixion on Clavary. : 43 matches

Smith, Seba, 1792-1868: My Thirty Years Out of the Senate. By Major Jack Downing. : 76 matches

Cooper, James Fenimore: The Deerslayer [Vol 1] : 29 matches

Cooper, James Fenimore: The Pioneers [Vol 2] : 14 matches

Judd, Sylvester, 1813-1853 : Margaret: A Tale of the Real and the Ideal, Blight and Bloom : 19 matches

Sedgwick, Catharine Maria, 1789-1867: Married or Single? : 21 matches

Hawthorne, Nathaniel, 1804-1864: Septimius Felton; or, The Elixir of Life. : 25 matches

Hawthorne, Nathaniel : The Scarlet Letter : 16 matches

Ingraham, J. H. (Joseph Holt), 1809-1860: The Pillar of Fire; or, Israel in Bondage. : 35 matches

Longfellow, Henry Wadsworth : Kavanagh : 7 matches

[Bernard Gui]

Here are some examples of Ethan Smith's use of "if/then." I could find

no examples of "if/and=if/then."

Bernard

If it is ascertained that the ten tribes are to be restored with the Jews, in the last days; they must be now in existence, and they must come to the knowledge of the Christian world about this time: for the time of their restoration must be near.

And if they be from the Hebrew, surely these Indians must be the very ten tribes of Israel.

If there is no benefit in restoring them to Palestine; why was there any calamity in expelling them from Palestine? Why did not God let them continue there, though he withdrew his spirit and grace from them? But if, over and above this, they must be expelled from the land of promise; then surely their promised restoration must (over and above giving them the heart of flesh) bring them back to Canaan, which was given to them for an everlasting possession.

If this proof should be deemed insufficient, one would be apt to say, nothing that inspiration can assert upon the point, could be deemed sufficient!

Different men who had been eye witnesses, speak of this, and other feasts, resembling the feasts in Israel; and tell us relative to this peculiar evening feast, that if one family cannot eat all they have prepared, a neighbouring family is invited to partake with them; and if any of it be still left, it must be burned before the next rising sun. None who read the law of the passover can doubt the origin of this.

Josephus declares, that if there had not been many credible witnesses of that awful fact, he never would have recorded it; for, said he, "such a shocking violation of nature never has been perpetrated by any Greek or barbarian."

And of the event Josephus says; "If the misfortunes of all nations from the beginning of the world, were compared with those which befel the Jews, they would appear far less."

Jeroboam, to perpetuate and widen this breach, and apprehending that if the Jews and ten tribes amicably met for publick worship, according to the law of God, the rupture between them would probably soon be healed, set up two golden calves, one in Dan, and one in Bethel; and ordered that the ten tribes of Israel should meet there for their publick worship.

Before the temple was wrapped in flames, an impostor appeared among the Jews, asserting a divine commission; and that if the people would follow him to the temple, they would see signs, wonders and deliverance.

[Bernard Gui]

Here is how Solomon Spalding uses the "if/then" figure. There were no

examples of "if/and=if/then."

Bernard

I think, may it please your honour, that I could gradually pump my notions into her head & make her a good shipmate for the cupboard & as good hearted a Christian as any of your white damsels & upon my Soul I warrant you if we have children, by feeding them with good fare, & keeping them clean, they will be as plump & as fair & nearly as white as your honour's children.

If by their dexterity & agility they escape the quagmire, a piece of wampum will be the reward of each fortunate champion; but if they plunge in their recompense will be the ridicule and laughter of the multitude.

Whereas, if according to the platonic system, the earth is a globe & the sun is stationary, then the earth by a moderate velocity - - - perform her revolutions.

But If we can place any reliance on the dark annals of antient history, it is certain that letters are indebted for their existence to the inventive genius of certain extraordinary characters.

The good being looking upon his unhappy offspring with infinite love & compassion, made a decree that if mankind would reduce their passions & appetites under the government of reason, he should be enjoy blessings in this world, & be completely happy after death his soul quits his body.

Spare their lives & then name your terms, & if I can comply with them without degrading the honour of my crown, it shall be done.

If the proposition accords with her wishes, they then agree on a time when he shall make known the affair to her parents, whose approbation being obtained, he is then permitted to viset her ten times in sixty days.

But if their parents are poor they receive a pittance & contributions from relations & neighbors, & are placed in such a situation that with proper industry & econimy they can live live above indigence & enjoy life agreeably.

If by your Majestys permission, I should marry your daughter Lamesa in your dominions it will be a literal fulfillment of the constitution.

If transporting Lamesa into our dominions when she has been most unjustly & inhumanely denied me for a companion, is a crime so perfidious & flagitious as of such mighty magnitude, then inflict a punishment that shall be adequate to the offense.

If peace can be preserved with honour, then let us maintain peace; but if not, then let us meet war with fortitude & courage.

[David Bokovoy]

This has been a fun thread to read. However, in my mind, thus far, the critics have missed the point. We know good and well that you do not find the links discussed recently on the FAIR board between the Book of Mormon and the ancient world significant. You have failed, however, to prove your point.

To establish your position as anything more than an opinion, you need to turn to the writings of Joseph Smith and his contemporaries and produce the types of links discussed here on the board.

Let us recap the situation: Nephi and his Asherah; Walking blameless before God; Alma 5 vs. Psalm 24; If/and constructions (remember hundreds of more cultural, linguistic, and religious connections have been found in addition to these recently discussed topics, but these should give you an idea of what you need to accomplish).

In 1997, the author of the infamous Bible Code issued the following challenge to critics:

"When my critics find a message about the assassination of a prime minister encrypted in Moby ****, I'll believe them" (Newsweek, Jun 9, 1997)

So of course, this is exactly what they did:

http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html

Now, in case you haven't figured it out. We're waiting.

Please find any links comparable to the ones recently discussed on the board in View of the Hebrews, Lucy Mack Smith

[Daniel Peterson]

Thanks, David B. and Bernard Gui.

Actual data. That's the thing.

Refreshing.

[William Schryver]

DB:

"When my critics find a message about the assassination of a prime minister encrypted in Moby ****, I'll believe them" (Newsweek, Jun 9, 1997)

So of course, this is exactly what they did:

That's so weird! When I read Moby ****, I get an overwhelming urge to swallow a goldfish. Am I reacting to something subliminal that I never recognized before?

[Crump E Crabble]

I've always found the following verses in the Book of Mormon interesting:

Mosiah Chapter 1

1 And now there was no more contention in all the land of Zarahemla, among all the people who belonged to king Benjamin, so that king Benjamin had continual peace all the remainder of his days.

[cinepro]

David Bokovy said:

In 1997, the author of the infamous Bible Code issued the following challenge to critics:

"When my critics find a message about the assassination of a prime minister encrypted in Moby ****, I'll believe them" (Newsweek, Jun 9, 1997)

So of course, this is exactly what they did:

http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html

Now, in case you haven't figured it out. We're waiting.

But David, you're only telling half the story.

You also have to mention Drosnin's response to the discovery of the similar "codes" in Moby ****:

From CNN Crossfire:

BEGALA: Well, Michael, let me rise to the challenge. Barry Fagan, a senior fellow at the independence institute and in the "Denver Post," a couple of years ago, when your first book came out, this is what he had to say, he took up your challenge. He looked at another book, here is what he said, "Unfortunately for Drosnin, and others easily amazed, there is nothing astonishing about it. Using a computer, as he did, you can find similar results in just about any large text you care to try. 'Mobby ****,' for example, contains interconnected ELSs of 'Kennedy,' 'head,' 'shot' and 'had been so killed.' 'War and Peace' predicts last year's NBA championship interconnecting 'Jordan,' 'Chicago' and 'Bulls.' I'm even running a code analyzer on this article as I type it. So far I've found 'Coke adds life' and 'Love Boat hit show."

Your response?

DROSNIN: Paul, you can find nonsense anywhere you look for it if what you're looking for is nonsense. But if you're looking for the truth, then you to look in the Bible code. It is true that if you take a long enough text, I don't care if it is "Moby ****" or the Manhattan telephone directory, you will eventually find encoded President Kennedy with an equal skip sequence. But you will not find in the same place as you will in the Bible in the same skip sequence "will be killed" and "Dallas" encoded in the same place.

You will certainly not find in advance the assassination of a prime minister as I did. I warned Rabin a year ahead of time. Nor will you find in advance the exact dates of the Gulf War as Dr. Rips (ph) and his colleagues did in Israel before the war started. None of the critics can do that. They can place silly games, but they cannot do what the bible code consistently does, tell us in advance events that actually do happen.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0212/02/cf.00.html

So Drosnin still remained convinced of the veracity of his Bible Codes, calling the Moby **** ones "silly games". He has even continued to publish books since then, with "Bible Code II: The Countdown" in 2002, and "Bible Code III" coming later this year.

Since you have cast the proponents of the Hebraisms in the BoM in Drosnin's shoes, aching to be shown they are wrong, please tell me why critics should expect any different of a reaction should the evidence be forthcoming? Are not both claims equally faith-based and unfalsifiable?

[The Dude]

This has been a fun thread to read.  However, in my mind, thus far, the critics have missed the point.  We know good and well that you do not find the links discussed recently on the FAIR board between the Book of Mormon and the ancient world significant.  You have failed, however, to prove your point. 

No, you missed the point. See below.

In 1997, the author of the infamous Bible Code issued the following challenge to critics:

"When my critics find a message about the assassination of a prime minister encrypted in Moby ****, I'll believe them" (Newsweek, Jun 9, 1997)

So of course, this is exactly what they did:

http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html

Now, in case you haven't figured it out.  We're waiting.

Your comparison of BoM Hebraisms to the Bible Code hoax actually helps me see where you are coming from. But to me the comparison misses the point of this thread. You see, disproving the Bible Code with that kind of evidence was a matter of showing how the Bible Code methodology could not differentiate meaning from noise. I think that is appropriate for chiasmus and Nephi/Asherah, which I think are not real Hebraisms, but in cases where both sides concede a Hebraism exists, it then becomes a question of how it got there. I'm willing to concede that if/and constructions are real, not noise, and move beyond the kind of disproof that worked for the Bible Code.

As Daniel has pointed out, the point of this thread was not to prove the BoM true with Hebraisms, nor to convince true-believers that Hebraisms are illusion by producing actual data. The point has been to examine a particular alleged Hebraism and see if it can be explained as a direct derivation from the King James Bible or more loosely as a product of 19th century christianity.

Let me recap how I see it. There are two routes for Hebraisms to enter the BoM, a long road and a short road. The long road is complex, but it is open to historical examination. It starts in the Old World with the compilation of Hebrew and Greek scipture into the a Christian cannon, which is later produced as the English King James Bible, without argument the most important document in 19th century American culture. Joseph Smith was a product of that culture, and every apologists on this board concedes that Joseph Smith had the opportunity and the will to interpolate his book with decidedly modern King Jamesisms. There may have also been unintentional interpolations. The short road is not open to historical examination, and can therefore be rendered as simple or complex in response to the needs of apologists. It also starts in the Old World with Nephi's ancient Hebrew roots and the Brass Plates (the actual composition of both is conveniently vague). This road journeys from Israel to an inscrutable pocket colony in the New World (perhaps Mesoamerica) to be quickly absorbed by a large indigenous civilization. There, the Nephite records were passed along through 1000 years of mixed Mesoamerican/Hebrew cultural drift. We know that by the time the records were finished off as Mormon's golden plates, the Mesoamerican influence had reached 100% and the Hebrew influence had vanished.

Every passage in the Book of Mormon got there by traveling one of those routes, agreed?

Nephi and his Asherah; Walking blameless before God; Alma 5 vs. Psalm 24; If/and constructions (remember hundreds of more cultural, linguistic, and religious connections have been found in addition to these recently discussed topics, but these should give you an idea of what you need to accomplish).

Yeah, we are up against quite a lot if we hope to convince you that the short road does not exist. For you, the short road will always be the default explanation for 99% of the BoM text (minus a few King Jamesisms that you concede). I don't think any of us have delusions of banishing your testimony.

Now from our point of view, we have to be convinced that the short road does exist before we will drop our position that 100% of the BoM text arrived by way of the long road. There's plenty of evidence for the long road, but the short road only has the BoM itself. Yes, the short road is said to explain peculiar features of the BoM, but the BoM is the only evidence for the short road... it's a circular argument.

How can you get some evidence that doesn't rely on circular arguments to be interpeted in your favor?

As I said in the Pain in the Ashera thread:

The clearest evidence for apologists would logically be evidence that is not related to the Bible [and Biblical language/culture] in any way, but is clearly linked to the BoM. This means external evidences in American archaeology (best) or clear instances of ancient America reflected in the BoM text (second best).

Hopefully Daniel now sees my logic. And in case you haven't figured it out, David, we are waiting.

[The Dude]

So Drosnin still remained convinced of the veracity of his Bible Codes, calling the Moby **** ones "silly games". He has even continued to publish books since then, with "Bible Code II: The Countdown" in 2002, and "Bible Code III" coming later this year.

Is anyone surprised that Drosnin's call for disproof was blatanly disingenuous? I'm not.

[Olavarria]

Lets not forget the cognate accusative in semitic langueges; "dreamed a dream".

I showed this to a persian convert friend of mine, who had studied arabic since he was a kid. He was impressed.

I remember, once we where having FHE and he pointed out some other BOM,semitic linguistic stuff to my friends in the apartment, much to their delight. It was somthing about Rabbanah.........As far as I know, my friend wasn't a reader of FARMS research.

So the hebraisms are their. Its just a questian of what one will make of them.

I recommend others interested in the subject read, The Book of Mormon Reformatted to Parrallelistic Patterns

[grego]

cinepro:

Story of a typical critic--"I'll believe when you show me; well, I still don't believe anyway".

The Dude, you're wrong--BOTH sides are waiting; well, not really.

See, LDS claim to prove by the Holy Ghost. Evidence will support, more with time, but never prove.

Critics claim to prove their claims by other means, often "science".

So, in general:

LDS are content. LDS are waiting.

Critics aren't.

And both will continue to wait for a while. The short road will never be proven until the time comes, and the long road will never be proven as it can't, because it's not true.

[The Dude]

The short road will never be proven until the time comes, and the long road will never be proven as it can't, because it's not true.

It can't be proven because it isn't true? So your theory is controlling the data.

The apologists (Bill Hamblin, David Bokovoy, & others) have already conceded that Joseph Smith had the opportunity and the will to interpolate his "ancient translation" with text from the King James Bible. So technically the long road is proven to all but the ignorant and the stubborn (like you, I guess).

[grego]

Bring all the data you want.

[Daniel Peterson]

I had one very specific topic in mind for this thread. Much irrelevancy has been committed here, but the bottom line appears to be this:

Conditional sentences of "if/and" structure occur in the earliest versions of the Book of Mormon text. That structure is characteristically Hebrew -- and, thus, is appropriately termed a "Hebraism" -- but nobody, to this point, has been able to locate instances of it in English (whether in an English translation of the Bible or anywhere else) for any period of the existence of the English language.

All that is required in order to disprove a universal negative proposition is the demonstrated existence of a single counterexample. (More such counterexamples may well exist, but, strictly speaking, their existence is logically redundant.)

The Dude's assertion that all Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon can be accounted for by the influence on its text of the English Bible lacks support in the evidence, and, consequently, appears to be false.

QED

[maklelan]

The apologists (Bill Hamblin, David Bokovoy, & others) have already conceded that Joseph Smith had the opportunity and the will to interpolate his "ancient translation" with text from the King James Bible. So technically the long road is proven to all but the ignorant and the stubborn (like you, I guess).

I hope you realize that there is a big difference between a scholarly opinion on the existence of an opportunity to do something and proving that something actually happened.

In addition, opportunity or not, no direct influence can be shown. The facts don't line up. For this assertion to be true would make Joseph Smith the greatest author that ever lived. He extracted principles of literature from the original language pf an often poorly translation and then created complex and often original representation of them in a text that was dictated without revision or reference to work from. You conclude all of this based on the opinion of two men that he had the opportunity and the will to do it? Then you make the argument stronger by mentioning that it's people from our side that arrived at this conclusion?

Please forgive my incredulity, but I am afraid it is not we who are ignorant or stubborn.

[juliann]

It has become a point of fascination for me to watch countermopologists give reasons and excuses and confuse them for data and documentation. I have seen nothing here except extended "is not" narratives. My first reaction to reading the "nope, uh uh, no way" responses is that none of them have any knowldge of the ancient languages they are passing judgment on. Do any of you countermoplogists have experience?

[Dale]

I have not seen any Bible example as complex as Book of Mormon examples. It takes a person really good at picking up on the style, and then inserting using it in your writing.

It's one thing to do a Hebraism on a piece of paper, and another thing to do it in your head without paper. One critic compared the Book of Mormon to Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan. But the book by John Bunyan is vastly inferior to the Book of Mormon characteristics as literature. You can just tell the author or authors of the Book of Mormon spent a lot of time creating Hebraism, or Hebraism like features to the book.

I keep an open mind that maybe Joseph Smith Jr. just was a genius capable of things that some think is just ancient looking.

[consiglieri]

These matters don't typically involve either/or dichotomies.  Rather, they rest on hard-to-calculate judgments of probability, repeated many times.

Granted. I'd be a lot more inclined to rate the probability of the BoM having been translated from Hebrew a lot more highly if linguists could demonstrate that there was any evidence that any of the native American languages, written or spoken, bore any resemblance to Hebrew. I don't think you can have your cake (hebrew surviving 1000 years after Lehi's voyage on the American continent) and eat it too (justify all traces of hebrew disappearing in the subsequent 1600 years).

I take it, Sethbag, that you are not familiar with the groundbreaking work by Brian Stubbs relating to many, many, many, many elements of Hebrew found in the family of Native American languages known as Uto-Aztecan? I believe that a rather detailed treatment is scheduled for publication in the next Journal of Book of Mormon Studies. If you are sincere that you would be "a lot more inclined to rate the probability of the BoM having been translated from Hebrew a lot more highly if linguists could demonstrate that there was any evidence that any of the native American languages, written or spoken, bore any resemblance to Hebrew," you may wish to give it a look-see.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

P.S. My thanks to Bernard Gui, whose research on the presence of "if/and" constructs in English literature showed absolutely no hits whatsoever. With this additional evidence, I think the presence of the "if/and" construct in the Book of Mormon makes it one of the more impressive evidences of its authenticity.

[Calm]

The apologists (Bill Hamblin, David Bokovoy, & others) have already conceded that Joseph Smith had the opportunity and the will to interpolate his "ancient translation" with text from the King James Bible.

Did they make the "concession" in the exact same terms and context you are here? Did they "concede" that this adaption of KJ language accounts for all cases of apparent 'ancientness' in the BoM?

Somehow I doubt that.

How about a direct quote of their concession speech and a link to provide the context please. I have been amazed myself at how many "concessions" I have made while thinking I was doing the exact opposite.