Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon

[consiglieri]

Thank you, makelan, for locating the source. Good job! Any comment, Gervin? Does it suit you better to have a non-LDS Hebrew expert identifying hebraisms in the Book of Mormon and using it as an example of Hebrew usage in a classroom setting?

And we are still waiting to hear from Sethbag as to whether linguist Brian Stubbs' identification of many, many, many, many elements of Hebrew in the Native American language family of Uto-Aztecan has caused Sethbag to "be a lot more inclined to rate the probability of the BoM having been translated from Hebrew a lot more highly."

I await breathelessly the responses from Gervin and Sethbag. They have called for specific evidence. It has been provided. What will they make of it? The anticipation is almost palpable!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[maklelan]

Thank you, makelan, for locating the source. Good job! Any comment, Gervin? Does it suit you better to have a non-LDS Hebrew expert identifying hebraisms in the Book of Mormon and using it as an example of Hebrew usage in a classroom setting?

And we are still waiting to hear from Sethbag as to whether linguist Brian Stubbs' identification of many, many, many, many elements of Hebrew in the Native American language family of Uto-Aztecan has caused Sethbag to "be a lot more inclined to rate the probability of the BoM having been translated from Hebrew a lot more highly."

I await breathelessly the responses from Gervin and Sethbag. They have called for specific evidence. It has been provided. What will they make of it? The anticipation is almost palpable!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I especially love the assertion of professor Rabin that the Book of Mormon does a better job of representing Hebrew literature than the English Bible. Joseph Smith copied the KJV? Yeah, right. He copied English right out of it and replaced it with authentic ancient Hebrew.

I for one do not hold out any hopes of a direct response to this evidence. I have presented equally strong cases to non and anti-Mormons on numerous occasions only to have them respond (after continued prodding) that they disagree with my premise. It appears to me that most of them makes their arguments from the same old tired anti-Mormon litany that is perpetually breastfed from the teet that is the worldwide web. When confronted with actual scholarship and research they are left with nothing to do but deny premises, definitions and terms. Totally weak.

[consiglieri]

We shall see, makelan, what Gervis and Sethbag decide to do with the evidence they themselves requested. You may be right. But then, they may surprise us and decide that the Book of Mormon must be an authentic record and request to see the missionaries.

In the meantime, it is a pleasure to make your acquaintance.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[maklelan]

We shall see, makelan, what Gervis and Sethbag decide to do with the evidence they themselves requested. You may be right. But then, they may surprise us and decide that the Book of Mormon must be an authentic record and request to see the missionaries.

In the meantime, it is a pleasure to make your acquaintance.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Igualmente. I quiver with anticipation.

[Bernard Gui]

Lets not forget the cognate accusative in semitic langueges; "dreamed a dream".

I showed this to a persian convert friend of mine, who had studied arabic since he was a kid. He was impressed.

"Dreamed a dream" is used in the Old Testament, for example,

Gen. 41: 11, 15

11 And we dreamed a dream in one night, I and he; we dreamed each man according to the interpretation of his dream.

15 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, I have dreamed a dream, and there is none that can interpret it: and I have heard say of thee, that thou canst understand a dream to ainterpret it.

I also found only two examples in the UVirginia e-text library....

Ingraham, J. H. (Joseph Holt), 1809-1860: The Pillar of Fire; or, Israel in Bondage.

These barbarians sold the young Prince Joseph to an

officer of the king's palace, Potipharis, captain of the guard,

whose descendant, Potiphar-Meses, is the general of cavalry you

met at the queen's banquet. This officer became the friend of the

young Syrian, and raised him to a place of honor in his

household. In the course of time the king, who was

the eminent Pharaoh-Apophis, dreamed a dream which

greatly troubled his mind, and which neither his sooth-

sayers, magicians, nor the priests could interpret. Jo-

seph, who was eminent for his piety, love of truth, and

devotion to his God, being in prison -- to which, on some

false charge of seeking the love of his master's wife, he

had been committed -- had interpreted the dreams of

two prisoners, one of whom, being released and hearing

of the king's dream, sent him word that while in prison

the Hebrew captive had truly interpreted a dream, which

both he and his companion had dreamed.

Judd, Sylvester, 1813-1853: Margaret: A Tale of the Real and the Ideal, Blight and Bloom

[William Schryver]

consiglieri:

Finally, Gervin asks if there are any non-LDS scholars who have weighed in on the Book of Mormon and the rich Hebrew literary tradition, implying such information would suit him better. I do seem to recall an article by Robert Smith, I believe, who was attending a class in Hebrew (at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem?) where the professor, a non-Mormon, used a passage from the Book of Mormon to illustrate the Hebraism he was discussing relating to a surplusage of "ands" as connectors.

First off, I note your usage of the word "consiglieri" as your handle. Can I conclude that you were a missionary in Italia? If so, tanti auguri on having served in one of the great places on earth. My wife and I both served in La Missione Italiana di Catania durante il periodo del Presidente Lino Pablo Gambarotto (1979 - 1981).

Secondly, thanks for asking the question that resulted in the posting of the Tvedtnes article. It is very interesting.

Lastly, while I yet await a clarification (in response to a PM) from David Bokovoy on the issue, I have some recollection (from my long-ago Hebrew studies at the University of Utah) about the "am/vav-" construction to which this thread refers. While it is true that the prefix vav- translates literally as "and" in English, in my readings (admittedly only basic) of Hebrew, I always understood that you should read the "am/vav-" construction as "if/then" -- as though the "vav" had a variable meaning of "and" or "then" depending on context. It will be interesting to see if David can inform us whether or not (in Hebrew) an "if/then" construction is always written with the "am/vav-" sequence, or if it is only typical of an archaic usage.

And please understand, I don't mean for this to diminish in any way the significance of the "if/and" renderings in the original manuscript of the Book of Mormon. It is, in my opinion, an extremely persuasive evidence of the fact that Joseph Smith was working from a text whose roots were in ancient Hebrew. Yes, the "am/vav-" construction is best rendered as "if/then" in English, but it literally means "if/and", which is exactly how Joseph Smith initially translated it.

If David contradicts me (which is entirely possible), I will offer an amendment to my post at that time.

[Gervin]

Finally, Gervin asks if there are any non-LDS scholars who have weighed in on the Book of Mormon and the rich Hebrew literary tradition, implying such information would suit him better. I do seem to recall an article by Robert Smith, I believe, who was attending a class in Hebrew (at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem?) where the professor, a non-Mormon, used a passage from the Book of Mormon to illustrate the Hebraism he was discussing relating to a surplusage of "ands" as connectors. Does anybody else remember this? If this account is verified, Gervin, would that mean anything to you?

I

[grego]

Gervin wrote: I

[maklelan]

I

[Gervin]

The question is, did it happen or not? You could write and ask, I'm guessing, if you doubt the story.

Did what happen? Tvedtnes says he was skeptical of the Rabin statement but he doesn't confirm that Rabin said this. I would say that Rabin did not make the statement attributed to him based on the fact that Tvedtnes me the guy but doesn't say whether or not he confiirmed the statement. More importantly, it doesn't matter a whit - the idea that the Book of Mormon reflects Hebrew better than the Bible is, kindly put, a joke.

[Gervin]

That's natural. I wouldn't have believed it had it not been corroborated by two eyewitnesses who happen to be highly respected scholars of the ancient Near East

Corroborated???? Where do you get this?

I have never actually read the Hebrew version before, as it is out of print

I find this strange. You want to make a claim that the Book of Mormon is a Hebrew-based book but the LDS church doesn't publish a Hebrew-based book?

Why?

[grego]

More importantly, it doesn't matter a whit - the idea that the Book of Mormon reflects Hebrew better than the Bible is, kindly put, a joke.

CFR, please.

Are there an awful lot of Italian RM's on this board or is that my imagination?

Hey, la missione lassu' e' lo stesso una parte di cielo, no?

[Daniel Peterson]

I find this strange.  You want to make a claim that the Book of Mormon is a Hebrew-based book but the LDS church doesn't publish a Hebrew-based book?

Why?

Latter-day Saints, including myself, regard the Book of Mormon as an ancient text growing out of a culture rooted in ancient Israel.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not currently publish or distribute a Hebrew translation of the Book of Mormon, owing to the extreme sensitivity of the issue of Christian proselyting in Israel, the sole country on earth whose official language is Hebrew.

[Gervin]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not currently publish or distribute a Hebrew translation of the Book of Mormon, owing to the extreme sensitivity of the issue of Christian proselyting in Israel, the sole country on earth whose official language is Hebrew.

I'm familiar with Christian missionary efforts in Israel - both to Arabs and Israelis. You don't go door to door handing out tracts but you also don't have to hide your faith or hide your books. I would bet that like most of the Christian faiths that the LDS have imbedded missionaries doing things besides proselytizing.

The Bible Society of Israel publishes a Hebrew New Testament and makes it available to those in Israel who ask. I doubt that there would be a problem with anyone wanting to study the Hebrew Book of Mormon for its literary value or for its historical reporting.

You can get Harry Potter, The Da Vinci Code in Hebrew, all kinds of New Age books, and the New Testament in Hebrew. Seems like the LDS would want to bring the Book of Mormon "home" to the root language and people of the book, even at the expense of not being able to hand out door to door.

[USU78]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not currently publish or distribute a Hebrew translation of the Book of Mormon, owing to the extreme sensitivity of the issue of Christian proselyting in Israel, the sole country on earth whose official language is Hebrew.

I'm familiar with Christian missionary efforts in Israel - both to Arabs and Israelis. You don't go door to door handing out tracts but you also don't have to hide your faith or hide your books. I would bet that like most of the Christian faiths that the LDS have inbedded missionaries doing things besides proselytizing.

The Bible Society of Israel publishes a Hebrew New Testament and makes it available to those in Israel who ask. I doubt that there would be a problem with anyone wanting to study the Hebrew Book of Mormon for its literary value or for its historical reporting.

You can get Harry Potter, The Da Vinci Code in Hebrew, all kinds of New Age books, and the New Testament in Hebrew. Seems like the LDS would want to bring the Book of Mormon "home" to the root language and people of the book, even at the expense of not being able to hand out door to door.

When we make an agreement, we stick by it. When the BYU Jerusalem Center was still in the planning stages, negotiations went on and on. Because of our respect for our elder cousins, we agreed to tighter restrictions on LDS activity even than Israeli law would impose.

Would you have us prove faithless by publishing a Hebrew version of the BoM, which could only be interpreted by those with whom we made an agreement as a breach of that agreement?

[Gervin]

When we make an agreement, we stick by it. When the BYU Jerusalem Center was still in the planning stages, negotiations went on and on. Because of our respect for our elder cousins, we agreed to tighter restrictions on LDS activity even than Israeli law would impose.

Would you have us prove faithless by publishing a Hebrew version of the BoM, which could only be interpreted by those with whom we made an agreement as a breach of that agreement?

Perhaps you can provide the particulars of the "agreement" and the Israeli laws that [self] constrain the LDS church since you seem to know them and I do not.

But, I'm less interested in LDS missionary efforts and more interested in the extent the Book of Mormon, with its high degree and quality of Hebrew-language characteristics, is recognized and studied by Hebrew scholars. This has nothing to do with the BYU Center and the activities therein.

[selek]

The restrictions on proselyting in Israel are very strict. Even though I was a US serviceman on military duty, had taken the discussions in America, and was only in Israel for a week long visit, it was decided that I could not be baptized in Israel as it was better to err on the side of caution.

The Israeli government is extremely sensitive to missionary efforts within its borders, and actually forbade (and may still do so) religions from operating within its borders if they did not exist there before a certain date.

But of course, if you are familiar (as you claim) with Christian ministries in Israel, that's old news.

But, I'm less interested in LDS missionary efforts and more interested in the extent the Book of Mormon, with its high degree and quality of Hebrew-language characteristics, is recognized and studied by Hebrew scholars. This has nothing to do with the BYU Center and the activities therein.

For that, you don't need a Hebrew translation of the Book of Mormon, nor do you need specifics of any arrangements the Church has made with the state of Israel.

As you stated, this has nothing to do with BYU or its activities.

Perhaps you can provide the particulars of the "agreement" and the Israeli laws that [self] constrain the LDS church since you seem to know them and I do not.

Your use of scare quotes around the word agreement above would seem to indicate that you believe the LDS Church is being less than honest about its reasons and motivations, as does your demand for the "particulars" of the agreement.

That, sir, is entirely your problem.

You can find the materials and knowledge you seek by studying the published works of the scholars already cited in this thread instead of demanding that they all line up for you and quack on command.

[Daniel Peterson]

Most of what you say, Gervin, is true. But there are special circumstances, and we have obligations in Israel that go beyond what other Christian groups have undertaken.

They stem, overwhelmingly, from the extreme difficulties Brigham Young University had back in the 1980s in building its Jerusalem Center for Near Eastern Studies on Mount Scopus.

At one point, back in the 90s, I was slated to be in Jerusalem as a participant in a week-long interfaith "trialogue" between Muslims, Christians, and Jews. As the only Mormon involved in the group, I was invited by the trialogue's leader (much to my surprise, since, in my prior experience with the group, nothing like this had happened otherwise) to do a special supplemental presentation on Mormonism in the evening to a closed session of the other participants, after the conclusion of the main discussions for the day. Now, these were mostly academics, from places like T

[Gervin]

Gervin QUOTE 

But, I'm less interested in LDS missionary efforts and more interested in the extent the Book of Mormon, with its high degree and quality of Hebrew-language characteristics, is recognized and studied by Hebrew scholars. This has nothing to do with the BYU Center and the activities therein. 

For that, you don't need a Hebrew translation of the Book of Mormon, nor do you need specifics of any arrangements the Church has made with the state of Israel.

As you stated, this has nothing to do with BYU or its activities

.

QUOTE

I thought that since the Book of Mormon has Hebrew literary qualities, a Hebrew translation of the Book might reflect the Hebrew language better than an English translation. If the Book of Mormon shows these hebraic traits then I'm curious if Hebrew scholars can read a Hebrew Book of Mormon and come to the same conclusions. For that you probably would need a Hebrew translation since there are no source documents for the Book of Mormon.

Your use of scare quotes around the word agreement above would seem to indicate that you believe the LDS Church is being less than honest about its reasons and motivations, as does your demand for the "particulars" of the agreement.

That, sir, is entirely your problem.

I've never heard the term "scare quotes" but I was simply using the quote to highlight the word used by the poster. I have no idea if this is a deed restriction, church-state understanding, law, regulation, etc. that is being referenced. Good grief, I didn't bring it up and I said I didn't know anything about it.

You take my "perhaps you can provide particulars" (that's a quote of my words) and you turn it into "[my] demand for the particulars" (that a quote of your words). That, sir, would seem to indicate at least a discernment problem that you have.

You can find the materials and knowledge you seek by studying the published works of the scholars already cited in this thread instead of demanding that they all line up for you and quack on command.

To that, may I just say:

[Gervin]

Dr. Peterson, I was living in Jerusalem (and Petach Tikva) in the early 90's and know about and followed the activities of the BYU Center. I also knew at the time a few of the folks who worked there - they liked to shop at a shop of an Arab believer we knew in the Old City. Christians do have a presence in Israel - Russian believers, Arabs, Messianic Jews, etc. I'm surprised that the LDS are restricted to not uttering a word about their faith or handing a Book of Mormon to a seeker. But I'm not doubting what you say.

Thanks for your other thoughts. As might be expected, I don't put much credence in the Rabin and Flusser stories. Either way, they don't amount to much in terms of scholarship which is why I pursued the question.

[maklelan]

Corroborated???? Where do you get this?

I get it from the fact that two scholars (Tvedtnes and Smith) have witnessed Professor Rabin make similar statements of agreement between the Book of Mormon and Hebrew literature.

I find this strange.  You want to make a claim that the Book of Mormon is a Hebrew-based book but the LDS church doesn't publish a Hebrew-based book?

Why?

I find it strange that you think the world runs exactly how you perceive it in your head. You should be aware that it doesn't. Daniel's explanation should eleviate your confusion.

More importantly, it doesn't matter a whit - the idea that the Book of Mormon reflects Hebrew better than the Bible is, kindly put, a joke.

And your side has failed miserably to prove this point for the entirety of this thread. I know it is common for non-Mormon to just dismiss scholarly statements of fact in favor of the "should have's" "could have's" and "would have's" of the Tanners, but for you to just base your above conclusion on the assumption that these men are straight up lying is irresponsible. You don't even make an effort to explain how you arrive at this conclusion, leading all of us to, once again, conclude that your conclusions are based solely on dogmatic refusal to accept as valid anything Mormon. Smith said he used the Book of Mormon in a lecture. Tvedtnes said he found the professor open to the idea.

You mislead your readers by making this statement:

Tvedtnes says he was skeptical of the Rabin statement but he doesn't confirm that Rabin said this.

When the real statement goes like this:

I was initially skeptical, but when I came to the Hebrew University and took several courses from Professor Rabin, I found him very open to the idea that the Book of Mormon was translated from an ancient Herbrew text.

He lets us know that his skepticism was done away with, but you make it sound like he remained forever skeptical. He never says his intention was to verify that particular statement, but you make it sound like it was. You're twisting the words around so they sound like they're making an argument for your side, which they are not.

I'm familiar with Christian missionary efforts in Israel - both to Arabs and Israelis. You don't go door to door handing out tracts but you also don't have to hide your faith or hide your books. I would bet that like most of the Christian faiths that the LDS have imbedded missionaries doing things besides proselytizing.

The Bible Society of Israel publishes a Hebrew New Testament and makes it available to those in Israel who ask. I doubt that there would be a problem with anyone wanting to study the Hebrew Book of Mormon for its literary value or for its historical reporting.

And you are entirely unfamiliar with our efforts there. Even if begged for instruction, the most we are allowed to say to anyone inside the borders of Israel is that we are Christian. Investigators are restricted from even attending sacrament meeting. You make some sweeping assumptions here, like that we've illegally smuggled proselytizing missionaries into the country, without even so much as a single piece of evidence. Why on earth would the church jeopardize their existence in the country just to win a few converts? Are you at all familiar with our missionary programs?

You doubt that there would be a problem, but you would be dead wrong. I see most of your conclusions are based on "I doubt" and "I would say" and "I find". How about a reference or a piece of evidence?

Consiglieri - Notice they introduced a new methodology into this debate: claim the evidence is a lie without any reason for it. I'm afraid I've never encountered this kind of evasion before, but it is fitting considering the impossibility of the task before them.

[Daniel Peterson]

As might be expected, I don't put much credence in the Rabin and Flusser stories.  Either way, they don't amount to much in terms of scholarship which is why I pursued the question.

I think the Rabin story is true, though I can't guarantee that it hasn't been garbled in the retelling. (Incidentally, I now realize that I know three people who studied with Rabin; I have no reason to suspect that John Tvedtnes is lying when he recounts his experience with the man.)

I know that Flusser was fascinated by Mormonism, because he said so. To me. As for the book that he was thinking of writing, my source for that is his friend Truman Madsen. Incidentally, for what it's worth, a paper by Flusser (not, as I recall, on Mormonism) appears in the small and very difficult-to-find (I can't even find mine, at the moment) Truman G. Madsen, ed., On Human Nature: The Jerusalem Center Symposium (Ann Arbor: Pryor Pettengill, 2004).

[Garden Girl]

During a 1993 concert tour to Israel, at the invitation of the Israeli government, the Mormon Tabernacle Choir were required to sign personal statements of agreement that they would not proselytize or discuss Mormonism even if asked... they adhered to the agreement... the result of the tour was a video entitled "In a Land Called Israel" which showed the Choir singing at various historical and sacred locations... There was a program on BYU TV that covered this tour and told how they hoped a video would come from it (it did)... it also stated about the agreement the Choir had to sign...

The Garden Girl

(btw... in watching the BYU-TV program on this tour... it was interesting to watch the audiences as the Choir performed... many were moved to tears... and even gasps when the Choir in each city would, in Hebrew, break into "Jerusalem of Gold" which is beloved of the people because in the early morning when the sun rises and first shines on the city, it casts a golden glow that is breathtaking).

[Gervin]

I get it from the fact that two scholars (Tvedtnes and Smith) have witnessed Professor Rabin make similar statements of agreement between the Book of Mormon and Hebrew literature.

Smith said that that Rabin said that "the Book of Mormon reflected Hebrew better than the English Bible" (not a direct quote of Rabin). Tvedtness said that he found Rabin "very open to the idea that the Book of Mormon was translated from acncient text" (again not a direct quote by Rabin). These two statements appeared to me to be very dissimilar. Perhaps I'm missing something. An actual Rabin quote, paper, lecture, book, etc would be a good way to know what he believes.

I find it strange that you think the world runs exactly how you perceive it in your head. You should be aware that it doesn't. Daniel's explanation should eleviate your confusion.

Yes, Dr. Peterson's explanations often eleviate my confusion (that is, sometimes they elevate and sometimes they alleviate. Sorry, I couldn't resist

And your side has failed miserably to prove this point for the entirety of this thread.

I don't have a side - no one wants me on their team.

I know it is common for non-Mormon to just dismiss scholarly statements of fact in favor of the "should have's" "could have's" and "would have's" of the Tanners, but for you to just base your above conclusion on the assumption that these men are straight up lying is irresponsible.

I don't know the Tanners and I haven't called anyone a liar. I don't see any substance to the statement attributed to Rabin. Dr. Peterson is a gentleman and a scholar. Would he agree that "the Book of Mormon reflects Hebrew better than the English Bible"?? Tell you what, if he agrees with it that'll be the last word on the topic. I won't comment.

You make some sweeping assumptions here, like that we've illegally smuggled proselytizing missionaries into the country, without even so much as a single piece of evidence.

You misunderstood my comment about imbedded missionaries. Many Christian organizations have educators, doctors, nurses, etc. in country as missionaries. They bring the love of Christ through their actions, first.

[Daniel Peterson]

Many Christian organizations have educators, doctors, nurses, etc. in country as missionaries.  They bring the love of Christ through their actions, first.

Latter-day Saint nurses and nursing students have worked in Palestine/Israel on a number of occasions, as have other LDS service professionals. I myself was scheduled, earlier this year, to accompany a group of LDS doctors and nurses as their "cultural advisor" for seminars on neonatal resuscitation that were to have been given to Palestinian doctors and nurses in the West Bank and Gaza. Unfortunately, for various reasons, the expedition had to be cancelled or, at least, postponed.