Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon

[David Bokovoy]

Hello William,

Sorry for the delayed response.

If David contradicts me (which is entirely possible), I will offer an amendment to my post at that time.

I'm not sure if this is what you wanted. If not, you may need to clarify (I'm still feeling a bit groggy these days).

The interesting thing about the Hebrew conjunction is that it really is so incredibly difficult for translators to pin down. Though somewhat exaggerated, the philosopher John Locke

[consiglieri]

consiglieri:

Finally, Gervin asks if there are any non-LDS scholars who have weighed in on the Book of Mormon and the rich Hebrew literary tradition, implying such information would suit him better. I do seem to recall an article by Robert Smith, I believe, who was attending a class in Hebrew (at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem?) where the professor, a non-Mormon, used a passage from the Book of Mormon to illustrate the Hebraism he was discussing relating to a surplusage of "ands" as connectors.

First off, I note your usage of the word "consiglieri" as your handle. Can I conclude that you were a missionary in Italia? If so, tanti auguri on having served in one of the great places on earth. My wife and I both served in La Missione Italiana di Catania durante il periodo del Presidente Lino Pablo Gambarotto (1979 - 1981).

Secondly, thanks for asking the question that resulted in the posting of the Tvedtnes article. It is very interesting.

Lastly, while I yet await a clarification (in response to a PM) from David Bokovoy on the issue, I have some recollection (from my long-ago Hebrew studies at the University of Utah) about the "am/vav-" construction to which this thread refers. While it is true that the prefix vav- translates literally as "and" in English, in my readings (admittedly only basic) of Hebrew, I always understood that you should read the "am/vav-" construction as "if/then" -- as though the "vav" had a variable meaning of "and" or "then" depending on context. It will be interesting to see if David can inform us whether or not (in Hebrew) an "if/then" construction is always written with the "am/vav-" sequence, or if it is only typical of an archaic usage.

And please understand, I don't mean for this to diminish in any way the significance of the "if/and" renderings in the original manuscript of the Book of Mormon. It is, in my opinion, an extremely persuasive evidence of the fact that Joseph Smith was working from a text whose roots were in ancient Hebrew. Yes, the "am/vav-" construction is best rendered as "if/then" in English, but it literally means "if/and", which is exactly how Joseph Smith initially translated it.

If David contradicts me (which is entirely possible), I will offer an amendment to my post at that time.

Dear William Schryver,

No, I must admit that I did not serve a mission to Italy, nor do I speak the Italian language. I did serve a mission to Japan during the same time period you reference of 1979-1981, however, and I did correspond with a missionary who was in Trieste, as I recall, by the name of Sorella Thompson. Certainly there is no way that you know of her?

Without giving away the mystery of my handle all at once, I will drop the hint that it has a direct connection with my avatar. Identify the avatar and you have the source of the handle. There may even be a prize involved for the first correct answer. Nah, probably not.

I have been impressed with the presence of Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon for some time. Chiasmus stands alone as a supreme example, in my opinion, and it appears that non-Mormons who are familiar with the issue concede that the chiasmus in Alma 36 is far more complex than anything else we have from the ancient world. Of course, then they count that as a strike against the Book of Mormon. I haven't quite understood their reasoning in that regard, yet.

The other multitudinous Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon receive a good treatment in a talk by John Tvedtness. My recollection of listening to the tape is that the cumulative effect of having example after example after example of Hebraisms from the Book of Mormon piled on top of each other is impressive. And John does not even mention chiasmus in his talk.

My interest in the if/then formulation in the Book of Mormon has not amounted to much until this particular thread, where the research being brought forth seems to make it stronger and stronger as an authentic Hebraism found in the original Hebrew of the Bible, but not in the English translations, and not in any other known English sources available to Joseph Smith, but which nevertheless shows up in the original and printer's manuscripts. This alone is rather remarkable.

And now we have David Bokovoy's latest post, which seems to add grist to the mill:

Interestingly, Steiner suggests that the

[William Schryver]

Bokovoy:

The interesting thing about the Hebrew conjunction is that it really is so incredibly difficult for translators to pin down. Though somewhat exaggerated, the philosopher John Locke

[Ron Beron]

Without giving away the mystery of my handle all at once, I will drop the hint that it has a direct connection with my avatar. Identify the avatar and you have the source of the handle. There may even be a prize involved for the first correct answer. Nah, probably not.

Wait a minute!! Robert Duvall never served a mission in Japan! Which part of Japan? I was in Tokyo 75-77.

[consiglieri]

Without giving away the mystery of my handle all at once, I will drop the hint that it has a direct connection with my avatar. Identify the avatar and you have the source of the handle. There may even be a prize involved for the first correct answer. Nah, probably not.

Wait a minute!! Robert Duvall never served a mission in Japan! Which part of Japan? I was in Tokyo 75-77.

It is a little known fact that Robert Duvall is actually a Mormon, and that he served his mission in the Kobe, Japan mission from 1979-1981. He does not openly speak of his faith because he does not want it to interfere with his film career.

Okay, Enemy Ace, you have enunciated almost all the puzzle. Care to take aim with your eagle-eye and take a stab at the handle of "consiglieri"? Your tumbaga-plated no-prize awaits . . .

All the Best!

--You know who

[Ron Beron]

Okay, Enemy Ace, you have enunciated almost all the puzzle. Care to take aim with your eagle-eye and take a stab at the handle of "consiglieri"? Your tumbaga-plated no-prize awaits . . .

All the Best!

--You know who

Well, I will forgive you for being in Kobe...Tokyo being ichiban, ne. But, the only thing I can think of is Tom Hagen?

[Gervin]

It is a little known fact that Robert Duvall is actually a Mormon, and that he served his mission in the Kobe, Japan mission from 1979-1981. He does not openly speak of his faith because he does not want it to interfere with his film career.

Just in case someone missed your humor:

Al Weisel, "Robert Duvall" (interview) in US Magazine, March 1998, p. 87:

[interviewer:] Critics are calling 'The Apostle' one of the best American films about religion ever made.

[Robert Duvall:] I tried not to make it just that, but that's at the core of it. Like a film about a man on a farm is about the man first and the farm second.

[interviewer:] You were raised a Christian Scientist, right?

[Robert Duvall:] I don't go to church, but that would be my belief.

[interviewer:] Have you ever had a profound religious experience?

[Robert Duvall:] One guy said Duvall could do a better movie if he was born again. Who knows. I was in a church in Harlem where they sang "What a Friend We Have in Jesus," and I had a very quiet emotional experience. If I was of that persuasion, that would suffice for me as a conversion...

From: Louis B. Hobson, "Toughing it out" in Calgary Sun, 5 April 1998:

Duvall, 67, is the son of a Methodist father and a Christian Scientist mother.

"Because my parents were so religious, I attended church regularly. I've always been a believer."

It was Duvall's parents who encouraged him to pursue acting.

[consiglieri]

Dear Enemy Ace and Gervin,

Man, you guys are good! And I am afraid that I will have to give the tumbaga-plated no-prize to (drum roll, please), Enemy Ace for his correct naming of the Robert Duvall character as Tom Hagen, the adopted son and consiglieri to the Corleone family. Omedeto gozaimasu! And Gervin was far too shrewd to think I was being serious about Duvall's Mormon mission. What if I said Johnny Whitaker?

I remember one of the few times I actually saw David Letterman look uncomfortable on the air was when Duvall was on his program hawking The Apostle, and then Duvall stands up, goes right into character, and started having a "Come to Jesus" revival right there in the studio.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Ron Beron]

Dear Enemy Ace and Gervin,

Man, you guys are good! And I am afraid that I will have to give the tumbaga-plated no-prize to (drum roll, please), Enemy Ace for his correct naming of the Robert Duvall character as Tom Hagen, the adopted son and consiglieri to the Corleone family. Omedeto gozaimasu! And Gervin was far too shrewd to think I was being serious about Duvall's Mormon mission. What if I said Johnny Whitaker?

I remember one of the few times I actually saw David Letterman look uncomfortable on the air was when Duvall was on his program hawking The Apostle, and then Duvall stands up, goes right into character, and started having a "Come to Jesus" revival right there in the studio.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Yea!!! Oh, great, now I have to pay taxes on my prize.

[Kevin Graham]

If Might-C or The Dude are able to offer examples of native speakers using "if/and" conditionals anywhere, I'll be impressed. Neither Professor Skousen nor I have been able to locate any such instances.

I am not sure what they have come up with, but I went digging on a Hebrew e-list and found something interesting. In 1808 Charles Thompson published the first English translation of the Septuagint, which was a literal translation from the Hebrew. Later Benton would publish his translation in 1851. I do not have a copy of the Thompson version, but the Benton translation retains the

[Jan]

I hate to interpose something that may be deemed controversial, and it may be suited better for another thread, but Gervin asks:  "Does  a rabbi of the Talmud or the Mishnah pick up the Hebrew Book of Mormon and say to himself, 'This is an ancient document of my people--this reads like the Hebrew texts I am familiar with"? 

As an aside, I will add that Tvedtnes, in a presentation at a FAIR conference several years ago, mentions that he knows of two Jewish scholars who believed that the Book of Mormon reflected a translation of ancient Hebrew.

Those may not be his exact words - my notes are at home - but somthing to that effect. He named the two scholars (one being a rabbi). I can post them when I get home if you are interested. I've posted it before on FAIR but it may be difficult to search for.

Jan

[Kevin Graham]

== As an aside, I will add that Tvedtnes, in a presentation at a FAIR conference several years ago, mentions that he knows of two Jewish scholars who believed that the Book of Mormon reflected a translation of ancient Hebrew

Yes, he footnotes this in one of his FAIR articles. I think someone actually provided the link somewhere recently.

The problem is that the guy is now dead. Critics will naturally question why these alleged statements were only published (even though Tvetdness was sitting on this gem since the 70's) shortly after he died. The problem is that it amounts to hearsay and it is no longer verifiable.

[Jan]

Kevin,

I did not post that as an apologetic. I posted it in response to C's post.

I trust that what Tvedtnes says is true - he makes the statement in front of his Jewish scholar peers. It matters not to me what critics think of it.

[Kevin Graham]

== I trust that what Tvedtnes says is true

Me too.

Just doing that Devil's advocate thing again. I know this is precisely what the critical argument would be.

[Daniel Peterson]

Kudos to Mr. Graham for finding, with the help of the Hebraists on b-hebrew, an 1851 translation of the Septuagint that appears to render literally an "if-and" construction from a literalistic Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, and for passing on to us their reference to a rather rare 1808 translation of the Septuagint that may or may not contain a similar construction.

This is actually helpful, however unlikely it may be that the frontier yokel Joseph Smith (or some other anonymous and unevidenced individual or cabal) had scoured the four volumes of Charles Thompson's translation looking for Hebraisms. (Incidentally, for Might-C's benefit: Scholars would universally recognize the "if-and" clause in Benton's 1851 translation of the Septuagint -- and, for that matter, the equivalent Greek phrase in the text from which he rendered it -- as a Hebraism. This isn't a concept that "mopologists" invented out of thin air.)

As to John Tvedtnes's recollection of Chaim Rabin, etc., I myself wouldn't lay a great deal of weight on it, but I'm pretty confident that it's true. I have no reason at all, based on nearly thirty years of acquaintance with him, to regard John as a liar. Why was the recollection not published earlier? I can't say. But I can point out that, for many years, John was working in business and was away from scholarship. He continued to write, but published little or nothing during that period.

[Gervin]

As to John Tvedtnes's recollection of Chaim Rabin, etc., I myself wouldn't lay a great deal of weight on it, but I'm pretty confident that it's true. I have no reason at all, based on nearly thirty years of acquaintance with him, to regard John as a liar.

I don't know John Tvedtnes but would just assume that he tells the truth. In truth, all he said about Rabin was that he found him "very open to the idea that the Book of Mormon was translated from acncient text." I don't know exactly what that means. I'm open to many ideas that I don't deep down believe to be true.

It appears that folks here want to put extraorddinary weight that Tvedtnes heard someone say that they heard Rabin say that "the Book of Mormon reflected Hebrew better than the English Bible." Is Rabin the only Hebrew scholar who could weigh in such a matter? Does Dr. Peterson believe that the Book of Mormon reflects Hebrew better than the English Bible? Perhaps someone wants to actually go on record with this supposition? Perhaps not.

[Bernard Gui]

Does Dr. Peterson believe that the Book of Mormon reflects Hebrew better than the English Bible? Perhaps someone wants to actually go on record with this supposition? Perhaps not.

Which English Bible?

Bernard

[urroner]

It appears that folks here want to put extraorddinary weight that Tvedtnes heard someone say that they heard Rabin say that "the Book of Mormon reflected Hebrew better than the English Bible."

I've been on this MB for a long time and even on ZLMB before then and I first heard about the Rabin account there quite some time ago and during the intervening years, I have only heard it mentioned three or four times and usually it was just in passing, so I wouldn't say anything about folks wanting to put extraordinary weight on that account.

Evem Dr. Dan who told the account doesn't mention it all that often AFAIK.

[Gervin]

Which English Bible?

The one owned by Professor Rabin

[Jan]

A post that has some of the details of Tvedtnes's remarks can be found here.

I, like Dan Peterson, don't offer this as proof. It's merely a comment on the issue of what some Hebrew/Jewish scholars think of the Book of Mormon.

[Daniel Peterson]

Speaking of the late Dr. Raphael Patai, his last book, The Children of Noah: Jewish Seafaring in Ancient Times (Princeton, 1999), includes a substantial appendix by Dr. John Lundquist, the ancient Near East librarian in the New York Public Library, on the Book of Mormon.

[Daniel Peterson]

If Might-C or The Dude are able to offer examples of native speakers using "if/and" conditionals anywhere, I'll be impressed. Neither Professor Skousen nor I have been able to locate any such instances.

I am not sure what they have come up with, but I went digging on a Hebrew e-list and found something interesting. In 1808 Charles Thompson published the first English translation of the Septuagint, which was a literal translation from the Hebrew. Later Benton would publish his translation in 1851. I do not have a copy of the Thompson version, but the Benton translation retains the

[David Bokovoy]

I do not have a copy of the Thompson version, but the Benton translation retains the

[William Schryver]

David,

Great observations. It is interesting to note that the Brenton translation simply dispenses with any translation for the "waw", since it is largely superfluous. This is kind of what I was trying to communicate earlier: that from my faint recollection, the "vav" (which is how I learned it) wasn't really understood as "and" so much as it was simply understand as a connector of sorts in the phrase. I don't think I ever read it as "then", either. I simply understood that it connected the remainder of the sentence with the "if" phrase that commenced it.

Also, I obviously need to go back and review all my vowell markers and their associated sounds, since I'd been thinking that the aleph/mem word was "am" instead of "im". I'm reviewing my Hebrew via an independent study course offered through UT-Austin. Hopefully I'll recover some of my lost knowledge over the course of the next few months. Twenty-five years is a long time ...

[Daniel Peterson]

Thanks, David. It seems that the lowly "if/and" construction sticks in certain craws. I may have to put more emphasis on it in the future!