yet another polygamy thread

[Pahoran]

Are these ifs contingent upon the Kingdom of Deseret rising again? If that is the case only select men would be able to get as many young wives as they were able to entice.  Most of us would never have to worry about it. There would however be a number of young bachelors and lost boys who would leave voluntarily or involuntarily. Probably to the Duchy of Denver or Cascadia.

It didn't take long for the nasty insinuations to emerge, did it?

I think you are making the mistake of projecting the Jeffs apostasy's form of polygamy back upon the Church of Jesus Christ, where it does not fit.

Pop quiz: who complained from the pulpit that the younger men needed to be more proactive about getting married so that the leaders of the Church wouldn't have to have so many wives? (Hint: it wasn't Warren Jeffs, or any other so-called "fundamentalist.")

Regards,

Pahoran

[Moksha]

Are these ifs contingent upon the Kingdom of Deseret rising again? If that is the case only select men would be able to get as many young wives as they were able to entice.

[Pahoran]

Are these ifs contingent upon the Kingdom of Deseret rising again? If that is the case only select men would be able to get as many young wives as they were able to entice.

[beastie]

I've noticed when this topic comes up often people say they would obey, but not really want to. I have to say I feel very sorry for plural wives who are married under these conditions. No matter what kind of marital arrangement it is, for everyone's sake, I would hope that love and the intense desire to marry that person are factors. Who would want to be someone's wife just because they wanted to obey God? He was really happy with just his FIRST wife, but will go ahead and bite the bullet for God?

Yuck.

[pssst]

well i agree beastie, marriage factors should be desire to do it and obviously love the other person...

if this had been a poll, the results may have shown that most believers would prefer to dodge polygamy but eventually obey it?

man i though believers were more willing and looking forward to it...

[Calm]

Is this not the way it was when it was introduced in the early church? Yet many members grew to view it as the preferred state.

We are required to do many things we don't desire to do for our own good at the beginning, like keep a balanced budget, pay tithing, change dirty diapers....the list is endless.

It is our attitude toward it after several years of obedience to a principle that matters more. I am willing to allow for personal growth to play a major part in a relationship myself.

[Pahoran]

well i agree beastie, marriage factors should be desire to do it and obviously love the other person...

if this had been a poll, the results may have shown that most believers would prefer to dodge polygamy but eventually obey it?

man i though believers were more willing and looking forward to it...

Well there you are, you see. If you just unquestioningly accept what the RfM-type crowd tell you, then when believers get to speak for themselves, you will be in for a surprise.

I hope it was a rewarding experience for you.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Zakuska]

well i agree beastie, marriage factors should be desire to do it and obviously love the other person...

if this had been a poll, the results may have shown that most believers would prefer to dodge polygamy but eventually obey it?

man i though believers were more willing and looking forward to it...

I think people miss the scritpural basis that goes along with this. Was Abraham over joyed when the Lord asked him to sacrifice Isaac? Or did he "bite the Bullet" for God?

Oh Yuck.

[MorningStar]

I would practice polygamy in a heartbeat.  Me and my husband's 90-year-old wives are going to get along great!    (I'm picking all his other wives.)

So you would be opposed to, say, a 14 or 16 year old wife?

Oh BLECH!!! They monopolize the bathroom too much! Although, they would make excellent babysitters and jealousy wouldn't be a factor since my husband is not attracted to teenage girls. He likes his women fat and flabby with lots and lots of stretch marks from bearing his children. Like me!

[MorningStar]

I would practice polygamy in a heartbeat.

[beastie]

I think people miss the scritpural basis that goes along with this. Was Abraham over joyed when the Lord asked him to sacrifice Isaac? Or did he "bite the Bullet" for God?

Oh Yuck.

Look, I know that Judeo-Christianity adheres to relative morality (ie, whatever God says to do is moral and right, even if it contradicts his former commandments and/or is naturally morally repulsive to decent people), but even with that given, I would hope that your response to killing your own child, or someone else killing their own child, would be

[Paul Osborne]

I wouldn

[pssst]

Well there you are, you see. If you just unquestioningly accept what the RfM-type crowd tell you, then when believers get to speak for themselves, you will be in for a surprise.

I hope it was a rewarding experience for you.

Regards,

Pahoran

indeed pahoran, i must admit that the results werent what i expected..they were better

my conclusion is that very deep inside, most of the believers see polygamy as something "negative" or something they wouldnt want to do.

i just hope that in the next polemic polygamy thread, people remember this thread before starting to defend it and make non believers think that polygamy is the best thing for tbms.

[Benjamin McGuire]

beastie writes:

PS, when still a believer, but troubled about polygamy, I asked lots of LDS women if they would allow their husband to take other wives in the next life (at the time I didn

[truth dancer]

Hi Ben...

Of course part of this is a cultural issue. Polygamous societies tend to de-emphasize personal intimacy in marriage, unlike monogamous societies. Within cultures that idealize personal intimacy (along with openess and honesty in relationships, etc.), polygamy really cannot work for these reasons. And while personal intimacy was less of an issue a century ago (along side equality issues - in property, in voting, in education, etc.), it would be, for the most part - at least for us American members - a much greater challenge today, and I think it makes the practice of polygamy impossible for the most part in our culture.

I agree!

Although I don't want to minimize the desire for many women (and men too perhaps) for an intimate, close, emotionally bonded relationship with their pratner during the 19th century.

While polygamy may have been great for some, I think there were many who were sickened and devastated by the experience, but were obedient because they felt it was God's will.

~dancer~

[BlueDreams]

While polygamy may have been great for some, I think there were many who were sickened and devastated by the experience, but were obedient because they felt it was God's will.

While I was bored over my winter vacation at a friend's house dogsitting I picked up one of their old books for fun reading. The old ones are always interesting because they mark the thoughts of the people often very different to our thoughts in our day. Anyways the book I picked up that day was of early mormon women.

Of course I had to read about the polygamous one.

It was she writing about her own life and two things that struck me.

1) she was pretty young and idealistic. She didn't sound like a push-over by any stretch of imagination

2) she felt called to it.

And mostly

3) The reactions of the people were not as positive as you would expect. They were similar to those around here. Many reluctant about the idea. More wondering why she would as she was young, pretty, and had plenty of chances for a more normal marriage. Polygamy were for the people who couldn't get a husband in many people's minds.

It was an interesting read. I wish i could remember what it was called.

Oh but for me on if I'd be willing. No, most likely not. I'm not married yet but I don't see much room for that possibilty ever. I wouldn't naturally want it and I'd definitely need a few incredibly strong reasons to do so at all. A flaming sword or two wouldn't hurt.

With luv,

BD

[katherine the great]

Since someone else brought it up, I will say something positive about early LDS polygamy. I do appreciate the fact that Brigham Young made it relatively easy for a polygamous wife to obtain a divorce. Even though it wasn't technically a legal marriage (unless she was the first wife),there didn't seem to be a stigma attached to the divorce. Women weren't just "stuck" in polygamy.

[truth dancer]

Hi KtG...

Since someone else brought it up, I will say something positive about early LDS polygamy. I do appreciate the fact that Brigham Young made it relatively easy for a polygamous wife to obtain a divorce. Even though it wasn't technically a legal marriage (unless she was the first wife),there didn't seem to be a stigma attached to the divorce. Women weren't just "stuck" in polygamy.

My understanding is that there didn't even need to be a divorce in some cases. The women were just able to "marry" other men.

I don't know if it is because the marriages weren't considered legal to begin with or if it was just the system.

OTOH, I believe there are also cases where if a woman didn't go along with it she was ostracized which would be especially difficult when one is in the middle of nowhere, with nowhere to go, no support, no transportation, no money etc. etc. etc. It sort of makes it tough to leave the "marriage." I think some women felt they had little option.

~dancer~

[Who Knows]

Since someone else brought it up, I will say something positive about early LDS polygamy. I do appreciate the fact that Brigham Young made it relatively easy for a polygamous wife to obtain a divorce. Even though it wasn't technically a legal marriage (unless she was the first wife),there didn't seem to be a stigma attached to the divorce. Women weren't just "stuck" in polygamy.

Yes, it sounds like it was a lovely time, women weren't stuck in polygamy, they could leave as they pleased, well, at least for a certain two weeks...

BY - JD 4-51

Men will say, "My wife, though a most excellent woman, has not seen a happy day since I took my second wife;" "No, not a happy day for a year," says one; and another has not seen a happy day for five years. It is said that women are tied down and abused: that they are misused and have not the liberty they ought to have; that many of them are wading through a perfect flood of tears, because of the conduct of some men, together with their own folly...

Let every man thus treat his wives, keeping raiment enough to clothe his body; and say to your wives, "Take all that I have and be set at liberty; but if you stay with me you shall comply with the law of God, and that too without any murmuring and whining. You must fulfil the law of God in every respect, and round up your shoulders to walk up to the mark without any grunting.

Now recollect that two weeks from to-morrow I am going to set you at liberty.

[katherine the great]

Now recollect that two weeks from to-morrow I am going to set you at liberty.

[katherine the great]

I don't know if it is because the marriages weren't considered legal to begin with or if it was just the system.

pssst...come here dancer girl so I can whisper something to you...

it was because it was an unworkable system that was doomed to eventually fail anyway...

[KevinG]

It's easy to sit comfortably in 2006 and cast dispersions on the pioneers, while ignoring the emotional detachment and neglect of serial monogamy and widespread fornication and adultry in our time.

[Who Knows]

Oh yes, one of my favorite quotes.

The other interesting thing about the quote I shared is that there obviously was a problem with abuse, depression, control, etc. I hear often how the Jeffs type polygamy of today is so different than what the LDS practiced back in the 1800's, but the quote from BY paints a similar picture to todays polygamy.

Also, why would BY have to announce that he was letting all the women get out of polygamy, if they were really free to leave in the first place?

[KevinG]

...why would BY have to announce that he was letting all the women get out of polygamy, if they were really free to leave in the first place?

Because there were plenty of critics who would read sinister motives into anything he said or did.

[katherine the great]

Also, why would BY have to announce that he was letting all the women get out of polygamy, if they were really free to leave in the first place?

Well, I believe that he made that statement during the 1856 reformation period. By then, people were starting to get a bit established and apparently people were starting to waver in their commitment. These kinds of speeches (I think) were designed to get people moving in one direction or the other. The women could obtain a divorce if they wanted and Brigham Young was telling them to hurry up and do so if that is what they really wanted. I'm no fan of his personality, but he usually managed to communicate his points.