yet another polygamy thread

[Doctor Steuss]

Liz, it makes a lot of sense to ask, "why would God command it" since I can't come up with a single advantage the early mormons gained from practicing it. It broght nothing but trouble to them. It diminished their ability to 'grow' their population, it turned the members against each other, and it brought the Govt. upon the people. IT nearly brought the church to ruin.

Single advantage? If it weren

[elect_lady]

Is it possible that you could have been born, instead, to a monogamist couple had your ancestors not chosen polygamy? I am glad you're here, by the way.

[Doctor Steuss]

Is it possible that you could have been born, instead, to a monogamist couple had your ancestors not chosen polygamy? I am glad you're here, by the way. 

Thank you. I'm glad I'm here too (and I'm glad you're here as well). In fact, I'm pretty dang glad that everyone is here!

HUG FEST!

[charity]

Those who say there was not one single advantage to the Church from the practice of plural marriage: You don't know the mind of God. God's people are always blessed when they obey His commandments, even if those blessings are not obvious to anyone else. And it was not God's commands that caused so much trouble for the Church. It was a nosy Federal government violating people's rights in the conduct of their religion.

Every argument I have seen against plural marriage comes from men's baser motives. "I couldn't share," "I will refuse to obey the Lord's servants," "A plural wife would resent my children just like I would resent hers." As I posted on another topic, Moroni 7:12 fits here. Every good thing comes from God. Every evil thing comes from the devil. Not sharing, refusing to obey, resenting innocent children. Are those good? Sounds evil to me. So consider the source.

[elect_lady]

I love you too, Charity! Have a nice day.

[charity]

elect lady, we are all having to overcome things that aren't our best selves. We are given challenges and trials which will help us overcome our flaws. This discussion is purely intellectual. None of us really know what we will do when confronted with a trial. I think you would probably be able to do what God commanded you. See, I love you, too.

[katherine the great]

I don't think it's an unfair question to ask.

And, frankly, the only way that I can come to terms with it not being some massoginistic act by a God who thrives on male domination is that maybe...just maybe....something was misinterpreted somewhere.

It is possible to disbelieve that plural marriage was a divine mandate and still retain one's testimony. There are some on this board who don't believe that, but I know better.

[liz3564]

I don't think it's an unfair question to ask.

And, frankly, the only way that I can come to terms with it not being some massoginistic act by a God who thrives on male domination is that maybe...just maybe....something was misinterpreted somewhere.

It is possible to disbelieve that plural marriage was a divine mandate and still retain one's testimony. There are some on this board who don't believe that, but I know better.

I like your way of thinking, Katherine! Your lightening rod and my light sabre make a good pair! LOL

[liz3564]

Those who say there was not one single advantage to the Church from the practice of plural marriage: You don't know the mind of God. God's people are always blessed when they obey His commandments, even if those blessings are not obvious to anyone else. And it was not God's commands that caused so much trouble for the Church. It was a nosy Federal government violating people's rights in the conduct of their religion.

Every argument I have seen against plural marriage comes from men's baser motives. "I couldn't share," "I will refuse to obey the Lord's servants," "A plural wife would resent my children just like I would resent hers." As I posted on another topic, Moroni 7:12 fits here. Every good thing comes from God. Every evil thing comes from the devil. Not sharing, refusing to obey, resenting innocent children. Are those good? Sounds evil to me. So consider the source.

So now I'm evil because I would resent my husband sleeping with someone else and having children with them? OK

Let's see how many MEN could live in the opposite situation if "commanded" to do so! I can guarantee not many.

And...as far as polygamy "created for women's benefit to share the workload"....What about Relief Society? What about a circle of friends? What about extended family when things get rough? None of these options involve another woman sleeping with my husband. If polygamy was "created for my supposed benefit"....thanks but no thanks!

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[elect_lady]

So now I'm evil because I would resent my husband sleeping with someone else and having children with them?

[charity]

elect lady and liz, I never called anyone evil. I said the motives which were expressed were NOT good. Not wanting to share a blessing. Resenting a child. Disobeying God. Do you believe these are good?

No woman is called today to share her husband. But many women have step-children. I would say any woman who resent a child of her husband with another woman needs to grow up. That woman is not evil. But in any way that her actions hurt an innocent child, she is committing a sin.

But I repeat, we separate the sinner from the sin. No mortal can call anyone evil. That is left to a higher Judge.

[liz3564]

elect lady and liz, I never called anyone evil.  I said the motives which were expressed were NOT good.  Not wanting to share a blessing.  Resenting a child. Disobeying God. Do you believe these are good? 

No woman is called today to share her husband.  But many women have step-children.  I would say any woman who resent a child of her husband with another woman needs to grow up.  That woman is not evil.  But in any way that her actions hurt an innocent child, she is committing a sin.

But I repeat, we separate the sinner from the sin.  No mortal can call anyone evil.  That is left to a higher Judge.

First of all, resenting step children is like comparing apples to oranges. I think it is very non-adult or non-"grown up" to not admit that if your husband was sleeping with someone else, had children with them, and it was all "sanctioned", there wouldn't be some resentment involved. We're all human. Charity, if you can honestly say that you wouldn't feel any resentment in this situation, then more power to you. I'm simply stating that I am not that super-human and that I would.

Does that mean that I would be mean to an innocent child? Of course not! That's rediculous!

As far as sharing a "blessing".....When we're talking about sharing my spouse....yes, I have issues with that! And I don't apologize for it.

[truth dancer]

HI Charity...

Every argument I have seen against plural marriage comes from men's baser motives. "I couldn't share," "I will refuse to obey the Lord's servants," "A plural wife would resent my children just like I would resent hers." As I posted on another topic, Moroni 7:12 fits here. Every good thing comes from God. Every evil thing comes from the devil. Not sharing, refusing to obey, resenting innocent children. Are those good? Sounds evil to me. So consider the source.

OK Charity.. here are some of my reasons for NOT thinking polygamy was a directive from God.

In my opinion....

It diminishes the emotional intimacy between couples.

It is unhealthy for the community.

It diminishes the time children can have a father in the home and participate with a family.

It creates an imbalance in society.

It lessens the bond (time, connection, care, strength, support, energy) between a mother and father.

It is counter to most peoples innate sense of modern day morality in our culture (which may be needed for a more enlightened planet).

It diminishes the opportunity for many young men to be married.

Our evolving consciousness is stiffled.

It is counter to many peoples sense of true inimacy between a couple.

It is a bad example for children because they do not see an example of true intimacy between partners.

The sense of harmony existing in nature (think yin/yang) is thwarted.

Children are desensitized to inequality.

OK, this one is a little abstract but... ) The evolved human ability for deeper self awareness and a more enlightened sense of the totality of our existence is diminished (I think there is definite purpose in the idea of female and male energies needing to be magnified together as one unit).

It creates further daily difficulties within families. (it is difficult enough for an intact family to be healthy and happy).

NOT SAYING I'm right, this is just how I see it.... I'm just giving you a few of my reasons so you know there are other reasons for thinking polygamy is not of God than the few you listed above. IOW, I totally understand others disagree with me.

You seem to think that some believers who would not be willing to share their husbands have evil motivations ("everything evil comes of the devil")... has it ever occurred to you that these women may believe their deepest sense of right and wrong indicates that it is not in the best interest of life, family, and community to have men with multiple partners?

Personally I find it odd that many believers think it is horrible (evil?) for men to have extra marital intimate relationships (because it hurts the marriage and children and the family and society), but if they are "married" to multiple partners then it is great and a wonderful thing! It doesn't really make sense to me.

Seems to me, if a man has extra intimate realtionship regardless of what these women are called, it creates the same difficulties in the marriage, for the children, and in the community.

But as others have pointed out, if adults want to engage in whatever form of alternative partnering they want, (as long as children are not hurt) they certainly are able and of course there are folks who enjoy all sorts of forms of partnering including polygamy.

~dancer~

[Familyof4]

Our family would leave the church as I know it would no longer reflect our values as Christians. I think a higher example of God is to only have one wife....the lesser example would be polygamy....So...to answer your question we would not.

[charity]

truth dancer, thank you for such a thoughtful post.

"It diminishes the emotional intimacy between couples." I am not sure on this one. I think love multiples, and is not a finite quantity which must be divided up.

"It is unhealthy for the community." How is it so? Men supporting families. No single parents. No day care. Many people caring for and supporting the children. If you have something specific that you think is unhealthy, I would like to know what it is.

"It diminishes the time children can have a father in the home and participate with a family." I would think that would depend on the living arrangments. Some lived in the same household. This was a choice. It did not have to be women and children living in separate houses with a "visiting" father.

"It creates an imbalance in society." Do you mean more single men "left over?" Right now, without plural marriage, we have an enormous imbalance in society. How many single mothers are there without husbands?

"It lessens the bond (time, connection, care, strength, support, energy) between a mother and father." It doesnt' need to. And it increases the time, connection, etc. between sister wives.

"It is counter to most peoples innate sense of modern day morality in our culture (which may be needed for a more enlightened planet)." So do many of the ideas of the Church. We teach premarital chastity, fidelity between husband and wife. These are not upheld in the community any more. Do we abandon them?

"It diminishes the opportunity for many young men to be married." See the previous answer. There was never a lack of wives for worthy men. If you are saying that any slacker who would not make himself worthy to marry diminished his chances, well, again, his choice.

"Our evolving consciousness is stiffled." I don't understand this. Please explain.

"It is counter to many peoples sense of true inimacy between a couple." Then maybe that sense is wrong. Or maybe there are just some people who would never be asked to living a plural marriage. Not everyone was. But to say that is a reason for no one to is not a sufficient reason.

"It is a bad example for children because they do not see an example of true intimacy between partners." I think this is a mistaken idea.

"The sense of harmony existing in nature (think yin/yang) is thwarted." Again, reaching, and not a true "principle" in my opinion.

"Children are desensitized to inequality." What inequality?

"OK, this one is a little abstract but... ) The evolved human ability for deeper self awareness and a more enlightened sense of the totality of our existence is diminished (I think there is definite purpose in the idea of female and male energies needing to be magnified together as one unit)." And what of the single woman who had no husband?

"It creates further daily difficulties within families. (it is difficult enough for an intact family to be healthy and happy)." I think a good plural marriage would have done just the opposite. Of course, there were bad plural marriages, too. But just because there are bad monogamous marriages doesn't mean we should scrap monogamy. Same woth polygamy.

"You seem to think that some believers who would not be willing to share their husbands have evil motivations ("everything evil comes of the devil")... has it ever occurred to you that these women may believe their deepest sense of right and wrong indicates that it is not in the best interest of life, family, and community to have men with multiple partners?"

I read what was posted. "I would not want to share my husband." "I wouldn't want to leave my children with a woman who would resent them, like I would resent hers." Those are not the best motives of human nature, I think you will agree. And certainly faults which should be overcome. We just have to be sure that what we accept or don't accept comes from God.

"Personally I find it odd that many believers think it is horrible (evil?) for men to have extra marital intimate relationships (because it hurts the marriage and children and the family and society), but if they are "married" to multiple partners then it is great and a wonderful thing! It doesn't really make sense to me."

For me it is whether it is God's command or not. Whether it is within vows or not. A married man today who has an affair is breaking a promise to his wife. He knows he is, he knows she is expecting him to be faithful, and he knows it will hurt her and he does it anyway. That is to say nothing of the practical matters. In the polygamous marriages where there was complete fidelity between the husband and wives there would never be sexually transmitted diseases. Married men who sleep around with women who sleep around can bring a disease back to the faithful wife. Yuk!

[Familyof4]

Every argument I have seen against plural marriage comes from men's baser motives. "I couldn't share," "I will refuse to obey the Lord's servants," "A plural wife would resent my children just like I would resent hers." As I posted on another topic, Moroni 7:12 fits here. Every good thing comes from God. Every evil thing comes from the devil. Not sharing, refusing to obey, resenting innocent children. Are those good? Sounds evil to me. So consider the source

Charity, lets take this to the extreme....what happens if your husband is granted an unlimited number of wives..based on the church only....that means...you will probably never see your husband again..since you will have to wait in line for your next visit....how is this Godly? I would challenge anyone who can even slightly give a common sense or even a Godly sense on the goodness of Polygmay....there is absolutly NONE! ..there is a simple fact here....a man cannot give his entire heart to multiple wives....if you can..you are a phony... Prove to me that a man can love with the fullness of his heart to a billion wives????

[charity]

Family of 4, when you run out of arguments you resort to the extreme? "unlimited wives," "never see your husband again," "a billion wives?" That is just unreasonable.

You have 2 children? I have 6. I know people with lots more. At what point does a father or mother have so m any children they couldn't love any more?

[Doctor Steuss]

..there is a simple fact here....a man cannot give his entire heart to multiple wives....if you can..you are a phony... Prove to me that a man can love with the fullness of his heart to a billion wives????

A billion wives? I doubt it. But more than one wife is a certainty to me (I

[truth dancer]

Hi Charity....

I just have a sec so can't reply to everything but real quick...

For me it is whether it is God's command or not. Whether it is within vows or not. A married man today who has an affair is breaking a promise to his wife. He knows he is, he knows she is expecting him to be faithful, and he knows it will hurt her and he does it anyway. That is to say nothing of the practical matters. In the polygamous marriages where there was complete fidelity between the husband and wives there would never be sexually transmitted diseases. Married men who sleep around with women who sleep around can bring a disease back to the faithful wife. Yuk!

We live in a world of time and space therefore, have limitations. For most people, healthy, intimate relationships require, time, energy, involvement, sharing, interactions, etc. etc. etc.

Most marriages that do NOT have these types of things seem to be less healthy, less close, less commited, less fulfilling, less meaningful etc. etc. etc. (Which of course is why couples counselors encourage couples to interact, date, spend quality time together etc.).

There is only so much time and energy we can expend. Most men that earn a living for their family have limited time to spend "feeding" and nurturing family relationships.

I think most people would suggest that a married man that "partners" other women is hurting the family in ways beyond just the "breaking a promise" concept. IOW, there are aspects to multiple partnering that go way beyond this.

Also, please make no mistake about this... there were many women who did have broken hearts when their husbands took other wives. Many women felt their husbands, having multiple partners was necessary for their eternal salvation but that certainly didn't take away the pain and sorrow and heartbreak. Even believers on this board have called polygamy a "sacrifice" for some suggesting it wasn't easy or wonderful but they did it out of obedience.

Again, while there may have been women (and obviously there are some today) who don't have issues with their husbands having multiple sexual, intimate relationships), I think there are reasons why many women do not think this is a beautiful or holy thing.

And, since your brought up the "practical matters," all I can say is STDs or not, the whole thing is really repusive to me. The idea of fidelity just doesn't make much sense in terms of multiple partners, again regardless of what those partners are called.

But, again, for those who enjoy alternative forms of partnering, great! I just really have a difficult time thinking God has much to do with it.

~dancer~

[juliann]

Family of 4, when you run out of arguments you resort to the extreme? "unlimited wives," "never see your husband again," "a billion wives?" That is just unreasonable.

Why? If three is "righteous"...isn't seven better? We are talking about eternity here! Eternity is limitless. Besides the shortage of women problem...this is the second reason substituting "polygamy" for the atonement makes absolutely no sense.

[pssst]

You have 2 children? I have 6. I know people with lots more. At what point does a father or mother have so m any children they couldn't love any more?

i think he isnt talking about love for children but love for other women.

[KevinG]

This topic always devolves into people spouting opinions on why they have a strong personal distaste for the practice of polygamy. Wouldn't a discussion on the topic for FAIR be more appropriate to cite where God has given his opinion through prophets and scripture?

I don't think it's so easy to dismiss the practice as false, without casting serious questions on the Prophet Joseph, Brigham and those who followed them. I'm not quite ready to criticize those who came before me, their practices and those things to which I was not a participant, without careful study of what the Lord's commandments are, and why they felt they were commanded to do what they did.

[katherine the great]

Oh, Susie dear, with love and cheer

May all with thee be well

My love for thee, while true to me,

This tongue can never tell.

And Jennie, love, Can I reprove

Or say thou are untrue

With love like mine, and virtue thine,

I always shall say no.

And Maggie, too, my love for you

I cannot now express

While thou to me shall faithful be,

I shall thee love and bless.

How lovely! My gggrandma's was more like this:

Oh dearest Nort, I must report

Thy presence sorely missed.

It

[pssst]

This topic always devolves into people spouting opinions on why they have a strong personal distaste for the practice of polygamy. Wouldn't a discussion on the topic for FAIR be more appropriate to cite where God has given his opinion through prophets and scripture?

well dadof7, first you might have to prove it was gods opinion...now that will become a neverending thread!

[Doctor Steuss]

      Oh, Susie dear, with love and cheer

          May all with thee be well

      My love for thee, while true to me,

        This tongue can never tell.

               

        And Jennie, love, Can I reprove

          Or say thou are untrue

      With love like mine, and virtue thine,

          I always shall say no.

               

        And Maggie, too, my love for you

          I cannot now express

      While thou to me shall faithful be,

        I shall thee love and bless.

How lovely! My gggrandma's was more like this:

Oh dearest Nort, I must report

Thy presence sorely missed.

It