yet another polygamy thread

[truth dancer]

Hi NH...

By the way, there is scholarly literature, both LDS and non-LDS, that has been published about marriage mores including polygamy, since polygamy is simply just another form of marriage.

Well, I think if we expand the idea to something beyond "marriage" we can get a better idea of how partnering evolved. IOW, LONG before "marriage" various mating patterns developed.

Yes, there is a lot of well documented research on this topic.

A couple of my favorite books on this topic are: The Evolution of Desire (David Buss), Why Sex is Fun, (Jared Diamond), and of course, Wright's, The Moral Animal.

~dancer~

[liz3564]

I appreciate your honest responses.

And yes, from a cultural standpoint, I understand somewhat why polygamy was practiced in Old Testament times. The social worth of the family was strongly tied to the men and how many children, particularly male children, were produced. The wives were tied to the "worth" of the family through the husband. I suppose I can understand as an outsider how, in this type of culture, a woman would be willing for a man to take another wife, particularly if she was barren, and couldn't give him children.

Don't get me wrong. I admire the women who could do this. I'm not judging them at all.

It just seems like a life filled with a tremendous amount of heartache, and I honestly don't understand why Heavenly Father, who is suppose to love all of us and want the best for us, would sanction or command this type of life.

[Nighthawke]

By the way, there is scholarly literature, both LDS and non-LDS, that has been published about marriage mores including polygamy, since polygamy is simply just another form of marriage.

Well, I think if we expand the idea to something beyond "marriage" we can get a better idea of how partnering evolved. IOW, LONG before "marriage" various mating patterns developed.

Yes, there is a lot of well documented research on this topic.

A couple of my favorite books on this topic are: The Evolution of Desire (David Buss), Why Sex is Fun, (Jared Diamond), and of course, Wright's, The Moral Animal.

And various "mating patterns" are developing today. For example here in Canada we have same-sex marriages. Some think that's a step backwards, I don't see it that way and supported the government when it made the decision.

Same thing with polygamy, some see it as a step backwards, I don't. I just see it as just another "mating pattern" and like many "mating patterns" you can find abusive relationships and you can also find loving relationships. You will find the same kinds of problems in polygamous relationships that exist in monogamous relationships.

So some folks couldn't live in a polygamous relationship, fine. Some folks can, and have chosen to do so in the past, and choose to do so today.

[Nighthawke]

It just seems like a life filled with a tremendous amount of heartache, and I honestly don't understand why Heavenly Father, who is suppose to love all of us and want the best for us, would sanction or command this type of life.

And loneliness and being on your own also "seems like a life filled with a tremendous amount of heartache" and I honestly don't understand why Heavenly Father would insist that single women, single mothers, and widows live that type of life.

I don't believe there is just "one" reason why Heavenly Father would command plural marriage; and every time I read a new book about polygamy I find more and more reasons why some would choose that lifestyle.

[liz3564]

So some folks couldn't live in a polygamous relationship, fine. Some folks can, and have chosen to do so in the past, and choose to do so today.

As long as it is a matter of individual choice, I don't have a problem with it, either. Although I couldn't live that way, I don't think it's right to deny someone who chooses to live that way their right.

My question is, why would God feel the need to make this particular choice of life a commandment? Why elevate it above monogamy?

[liz3564]

And loneliness and being on your own also "seems like a life filled with a tremendous amount of heartache" and I honestly don't understand why Heavenly Father would insist that single women, single mothers, and widows live that type of life.

I would think that if a husband was going from household to household to visit his other wives and families that I would feel like a single mother much of the time. According to the journals of many of these women, that is exactly how they felt.

[Zakuska]

I totally agree... I hear my mother all the time saying how her grandmother would tell her stories of how hard it was living polygamously. Having to deal with all the dynamics of that. Trying to keep the other spouses happy rather than just the couple.

[katherine the great]

My question is, why would God feel the need to make this particular choice of life a commandment? Why elevate it above monogamy?

My answer is: He didn't. It was a misguided effort to emulate Old Testament Patriarchs and it died out. (I take full responsibility for my opinion and have my lightening rod nearby...)

[liz3564]

My question is, why would God feel the need to make this particular choice of life a commandment?  Why elevate it above monogamy?

My answer is: He didn't. It was a misguided effort to emulate Old Testament Patriarchs and it died out. (I take full responsibility for my opinion and have my lightening rod nearby...)

I like your way of thinking, Katherine!

I'll stand guard with my light saber! LOL

[BCSpace]

My answer is: He didn't. It was a misguided effort to emulate Old Testament Patriarchs and it died out. (I take full responsibility for my opinion and have my lightening rod nearby...)

I'll bite. This shows that you don't believe certain verses in the scriptures (ancient and modern) to be the word of God. But having attended Sunday School and Relief Society (as a male spy ), there are indeed some other LDS women with the same erroneous beliefs. A travesty really.

[Nighthawke]

I would think that if a husband was going from household to household to visit his other wives and families that I would feel like a single mother much of the time. According to the journals of many of these women, that is exactly how they felt.

And many plural wives did not feel that way:

Elizabeth Acord Beck, the second wife of Erastus, said, "You will laugh, but when he was home regularly I used to sometimes be relieved when it was his turn at auntie's. It gave me time to get caught up on my work and do some things I wanted." Maud Hodges, the youngest daughter of James and his second wife Fanny Martin Kearl, felt the same way. "Sometimes I'm sure we were glad Father had the other family to go to. It was a great relief not to have a man around the place to cook for and to look after. We girls and mother were such good companions that we got along just as well with Father there as when he wasn't there."

- Jessie L. Embry, Mormon Polygamous Families: Life in the Principle, p. 84.

By the way, when you read journals please be mindful that some of these were written during the federal anti-polygamy raids against polygamists where you had both men and women being jailed or threatened with jail if caught. This caused a lot of heartache which would not have existed if polygamy could have been practiced openly. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your comment, I'm just saying please don't forget to check the historical timeline.

[liz3564]

By the way, when you read journals please be mindful that some of these were written during the federal anti-polygamy raids against polygamists where you had both men and women being jailed or threatened with jail if caught. This caused a lot of heartache which would not have existed if polygamy could have been practiced openly. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your comment, I'm just saying please don't forget to check the historical timeline.

I wasn't referring to a specific historical guideline. You had mentioned in your previous post that loneliness might be a motivation for a single woman, mother, or widow to become involved in a polygamous relationship. I was simply pointing out that many of these women probably had feelings of loneliness even within this type of relationship.

Do I think that any of these men and women should have been jailed for practicing polygamy? Absolutely not!

[liz3564]

My answer is: He didn't. It was a misguided effort to emulate Old Testament Patriarchs and it died out. (I take full responsibility for my opinion and have my lightening rod nearby...)

I'll bite. This shows that you don't believe certain verses in the scriptures (ancient and modern) to be the word of God. But having attended Sunday School and Relief Society (as a male spy ), there are indeed some other LDS women with the same erroneous beliefs. A travesty really.

And why is it that you think this travesty might exist?

In order for a marriage to really work, there is a tremendous amount of emotional investment. It is not only difficult, but impossible for me to imagine bringing someone else into that bond.

I marvel at those who were able to make it work...but still wonder why it is necessary.

[Nighthawke]

I marvel at those who were able to make it work...but still wonder why it is necessary.

The Saints believed it was because it was the will of God. Some LDS believe that also, that is, those who believe that Doctrine & Covenants section 132 is scriptural. What scriptures support temple sealings/marriage for eternity?

[katherine the great]

This caused a lot of heartache which would not have existed if polygamy could have been practiced openly. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your comment, I'm just saying please don't forget to check the historical timeline.

It also wouldn't have existed if polygamy hadn't been practiced at all. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your comment, I'm just saying please don't forget the obvious.

[katherine the great]

I'll bite. This shows that you don't believe certain verses in the scriptures (ancient and modern) to be the word of God. But having attended Sunday School and Relief Society (as a male spy ), there are indeed some other LDS women with the same erroneous beliefs. A travesty really.

True. I don't believe in the talking donkey either.

[elect_lady]

I'll bite.  This shows that you don't believe certain verses in the scriptures (ancient and modern) to be the word of God.  But having attended Sunday School and Relief Society (as a male spy  ), there are indeed some other LDS women with the same erroneous beliefs.  A travesty really.

True. I don't believe in the talking donkey either.

Shocking that a woman wouldn't agree that the "doctrine" of plural marriage is from God. Absolutely shocking! I guess it's just hard to see how a loving father would force such a thing on his daughters.

[charity]

I have not been commenting here, but reading. So here goes.

1. About birthrates. Numbers per couple or individual do not tell the whole story. In the 1800's it was really a sad thing to be an unmarried woman. They generally had no way to support themselves independently and were often attached as the spinster aunt to a family. Without a spouse and without their own children. I am sure these women were very glad to have a plural marriage.

2. What advantage could a plural marriage possibly be to a woman today?

a. having a good, faithful member of the Church, a man who honored his priesthood for a husband. As a lady of my acquaintance, the daughter of a plural marriage said, "I'd rather have half a good man, than all of a bad one."

b. someone to share the work with. And if you had a migraine, your toddler wouldn't be unsupervised and spill a pound of sugar on the kitchen floor while you were throwing up.

c. in today's culture, there could be a career wife, with child care from a loving sister wife in the home for her children, while one wife might prefer the stay at home life. The end of commercial day care would be a great blessing to children. Don't get me started on all the bad things that happen to kids in day care.

d. And since many men do have higher libidos than women, this could be an advantage, too.

[liz3564]

This caused a lot of heartache which would not have existed if polygamy could have been practiced openly. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your comment, I'm just saying please don't forget to check the historical timeline.

It also wouldn't have existed if polygamy hadn't been practiced at all. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your comment, I'm just saying please don't forget the obvious.

Exactly!

I have yet to find a reason which makes sense to me as to why this practice was necessary other than the pat answer of "God commanded it."

OK....WHY did God command it?

If I'm struck down by lightening for asking the question, then so be it!

I don't think it's an unfair question to ask.

And, frankly, the only way that I can come to terms with it not being some massoginistic act by a God who thrives on male domination is that maybe...just maybe....something was misinterpreted somewhere.

[liz3564]

d. And since many men do have higher libidos than women, this could be an advantage, too.

I don't think that's necessarily true. I know plenty of women with high libidos, myself included. I think it would be very frustrating to have to "wait my turn" in that respect.

I'm sorry...I just couldn't get past knowing that when my husband wasn't with me, he was sleeping with someone else...one of my "sister" wives!

As far as my "sister wives" watching my children while I went off to work...how could I be certain they didn't resent me or my kids the way I would resent them?

Look...I know it worked for many of the women during that time. I'm happy for those who were honestly happy with the situation...but overall, I think it causes a lot more problems than it solves.

And it also seems to me that the women who did make this type of relationship successful would have to somewhat emotionally detatch themselves from the husband just to survive emotionally themselves.

What's the sense of being married to someone if you can't be that one anchor for that other person? Maybe I'm just too much of a romantic.

I'm just glad that I don't have to practice polygamy, and if there ever came a time when the Church wanted us to practice it, I would have to have a face to face session with the Lord telling me exactly why I should before I would consider it...and to be honest, I don't know that I could even do it then.

[charity]

liz, I think plural marriage was instituted for the benefit of women. What man benefits from having to support more wives and children? In my previous post I suggested some advantages today for women. In the 1800's there would have been even more.

The work of keepoing a household was backbreaking without the standard applicances we take for granted today. "Many hands make light work" I heard all my growing up years.

Someone posted that there was an average of one child less per woman in a plural marriage than in a monogamous marriage. Back when delivering babies was quite a bit riskier than today, one less pregnancy was one less chance to die.

I think people who look at plural marriage as a sole benefit to men do so because they think all men are lustful beasts who only want sex. Shame on you.

[elect_lady]

2.  What advantage could a plural marriage possibly be to a woman today?

      a. having a  good, faithful member of the Church, a man who honored his priesthood for a husband.  As a lady of my acquaintance, the daughter of a plural marriage said, "I'd rather have half a good man, than all of a bad one."

Rather than the women having to share good men, why don't the men stop being dogs and become good men? Seems like the emphasis should be there rather than punishing the women with polygamy.

  b. someone to share the work with. And if you had a migraine, your toddler wouldn't be unsupervised and spill a pound of sugar on the kitchen floor while you were throwing up.

When I have a migraine, I ask my husband to stay home, or I have my teenage daughter stay home. A neighbor would work, as well. Again, there is no need to share my husband.

  c. in today's culture, there could be a career wife, with child care from a loving sister wife in the home for her children, while one wife might prefer the stay at home life.  The end of commercial day care would be a great blessing to children. Don't get me started on all the bad things that happen to kids in day care.

Not a bad point. Daycare is scary. I really don't think there are going to be too many women who would be delighted to stay home and be another woman's nanny for free, though. Maybe. But highly doubtful.

d. And since many men do have higher libidos than women, this could be an  advantage, too.

In my marriage, I am the one with the higher libido, and I ain't sharing my man!!

[liz3564]

I think people who look at plural marriage as a sole benefit to men do so because they think all men are lustful beasts who only want sex. Shame on you.

LOL!

Shame on ME? YOU'RE the one who stated the men's libido was higher than women's....not me!

[liz3564]

d. And since many men do have higher libidos than women, this could be an

[elect_lady]

Liz, it makes a lot of sense to ask, "why would God command it" since I can't come up with a single advantage the early mormons gained from practicing it. It broght nothing but trouble to them. It diminished their ability to 'grow' their population, it turned the members against each other, and it brought the Govt. upon the people. IT nearly brought the church to ruin.