Moses 7 - Coming to earth to fulfil the oath to Enoch

[marineland]

What do you make of verses 50-52, 59-60?  It kind of seems like Heavenly Father, 
identified as the Lord, is coming in the last days to fulfil two covenants.

How would he do it?

The aspect of the covenant where a remnant of Noah's seed always being found 
among all nations is inherently self-fulfilling, since all nations are populated 
by descendants of those who survived the global flood.

And it came to pass that Enoch continued his cry unto the Lord, saying: I ask 
thee, O Lord, in the name of thine Only Begotten, even Jesus Christ, that thou 
wilt have mercy upon Noah and his seed, that the earth might never more be 
covered by the floods (50).

And the Lord could not withhold; and he covenanted with Enoch, and sware unto 
him with an oath, that he would stay the floods; that he would call upon the 
children of Noah; (51)

And he sent forth an unalterable decree, that a remnant of his seed should 
always be found among all nations, while the earth should stand; (52)

And Enoch beheld the Son of Man ascend up unto the Father; and he called unto
the Lord, saying: Wilt thou not come again upon the earth? Forasmuch as thou art 
God, and I know thee, and thou hast sworn unto me, and commanded me that I should 
ask in the name of thine Only Begotten; thou hast made me, and given unto me a 
right to thy throne, and not of myself, but through thine own grace; wherefore, 
I ask thee if thou wilt not come again on the earth. (59)

And the Lord said unto Enoch: As I live, even so will I come in the last days, 
in the days of wickedness and vengeance, to fulfil the oath which I have made 
unto you concerning the children of Noah. (60)

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, marineland said:

What do you make of verses 50-52, 59-60?  It kind of seems like Heavenly Father, 
identified as the Lord, is coming in the last days to fulfil two covenants.

How would he do it?

The aspect of the covenant where a remnant of Noah's seed always being found 
among all nations is inherently self-fulfilling, since all nations are populated 
by descendants of those who survived the global flood.

And it came to pass that Enoch continued his cry unto the Lord, saying: I ask 
thee, O Lord, in the name of thine Only Begotten, even Jesus Christ, that thou 
wilt have mercy upon Noah and his seed, that the earth might never more be 
covered by the floods (50).

And the Lord could not withhold; and he covenanted with Enoch, and sware unto 
him with an oath, that he would stay the floods; that he would call upon the 
children of Noah; (51)

And he sent forth an unalterable decree, that a remnant of his seed should 
always be found among all nations, while the earth should stand; (52)

And Enoch beheld the Son of Man ascend up unto the Father; and he called unto
the Lord, saying: Wilt thou not come again upon the earth? Forasmuch as thou art 
God, and I know thee, and thou hast sworn unto me, and commanded me that I should 
ask in the name of thine Only Begotten; thou hast made me, and given unto me a 
right to thy throne, and not of myself, but through thine own grace; wherefore, 
I ask thee if thou wilt not come again on the earth. (59)

And the Lord said unto Enoch: As I live, even so will I come in the last days, 
in the days of wickedness and vengeance, to fulfil the oath which I have made 
unto you concerning the children of Noah. (60)

“Please withhold the floods and don’t kill almost all of us again.”

”Okay”

”Also please come again at the end of days and burn up everyone you would have drowned the first time.”

”Ummmmm……okay?”

[Pyreaux]

If everyone is naturally a descendant of Noah, how is a remnant of his seed being found among all nations a specific sign or a task for the Lord to fulfill in the last days?

The typical understanding is

There is a distinction between a mere biological seed and the covenant seed. The "call" of Verse 51 says the Lord would "call upon the children of Noah." This implies a spiritual gathering. In the last days, Noah’s descendants are identified and reclaimed through the Gospel. In scriptural terms, a "remnant" often refers to a faithful group preserved for a specific purpose. The fulfillment in the last days involves finding those who are willing to keep the same oaths Enoch and Noah kept.

The Two Covenants include the Everlasting Covenant of Peace that the earth won't be flooded again and Noah’s seed will remain. Then the promise that the Lord will return to "fulfill the oath". In Verse 60, He is coming back because the Seed of Noah and the City of Enoch (Zion) are meant to meet. The "how" is essentially the Gathering of Israel from every nation. Missionaries are "calling" upon the children of Noah in every nation. Offering the same "Only Begotten" (verse 50) framework to those descendants. 

It is a legal guarantee, an "unalterable decree," the Lord ensured that no matter how wicked the world became in the last days, not to wipe them out and start over, Noah's human race and specifically the line of the priesthood, would never be completely wiped out.

But there are some speculative theories

In the "Local Flood" Theory, it is suggested the Flood might have been a localized but catastrophic event. If the Flood was local, it follows that other groups of people, not present in Noah's immediate region, would have survived. Under this view, the "unalterable decree" that Noah’s seed would be found among all nations (Moses 7:52) is fulfilled as Noah’s descendants eventually migrated and intermarried with these other surviving populations.

The Bible mentions groups like the Rephaim, Anakim and other "giants" appearing after the Flood. Or how one of the wives of Noah’s sons, traditionally Ham’s wife, Egyptus, is often the subject speculation regarding multiple lineages. Or that the term "Rephaim" refers to a spiritual or political class rather than a biological race. A class of "mighty men" (Hebrew: gibborim) who were aristocratic, violent, and highly influential. These groups represent a "counter-Zion", a civilization that stood in direct opposition to Enoch’s.

Edited February 12 by Pyreaux

[teddyaware]

6 hours ago, marineland said:

 

Duplicate

Edited February 12 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

Duplicate

Edited February 12 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

7 hours ago, marineland said:

What do you make of verses 50-52, 59-60?  It kind of seems like Heavenly Father, 
identified as the Lord, is coming in the last days to fulfil two covenants.

How would he do it?

The aspect of the covenant where a remnant of Noah's seed always being found 
among all nations is inherently self-fulfilling, since all nations are populated 
by descendants of those who survived the global flood.

And it came to pass that Enoch continued his cry unto the Lord, saying: I ask 
thee, O Lord, in the name of thine Only Begotten, even Jesus Christ, that thou 
wilt have mercy upon Noah and his seed, that the earth might never more be 
covered by the floods (50).

And the Lord could not withhold; and he covenanted with Enoch, and sware unto 
him with an oath, that he would stay the floods; that he would call upon the 
children of Noah; (51)

And he sent forth an unalterable decree, that a remnant of his seed should 
always be found among all nations, while the earth should stand; (52)

And Enoch beheld the Son of Man ascend up unto the Father; and he called unto
the Lord, saying: Wilt thou not come again upon the earth? Forasmuch as thou art 
God, and I know thee, and thou hast sworn unto me, and commanded me that I should 
ask in the name of thine Only Begotten; thou hast made me, and given unto me a 
right to thy throne, and not of myself, but through thine own grace; wherefore, 
I ask thee if thou wilt not come again on the earth. (59)

And the Lord said unto Enoch: As I live, even so will I come in the last days, 
in the days of wickedness and vengeance, to fulfil the oath which I have made 
unto you concerning the children of Noah. (60)

The answer to your inquiry is found in the succeeding verses. After the restored gospel sweeps the earth in the latter-days and gathers out righteous Israel, God the Father is going to descend upon the earth and affectionally mingle with his saints after Zion and the city of New Jerusalem have been fully established and sanctified.

 

62 And righteousness will I send down out of heaven; and truth will I send forth out of the earth, to bear testimony of mine Only Begotten; his resurrection from the dead; yea, and also the resurrection of all men; and righteousness and truth will I cause to sweep the earth as with a flood, to gather out mine elect from the four quarters of the earth, unto a place which I shall prepare, an Holy City, that my people may gird up their loins, and be looking forth for the time of my coming; for there shall be my tabernacle, and it shall be called Zion, a New Jerusalem.

63 And the Lord said unto Enoch: Then shalt thou and all thy city meet them there, AND WE WILL RECEIVE THEM INTO OUR BOSOM, and they shall see us; and we will fall upon their necks, and they shall fall upon our necks, and we will kiss each other;

64 And there shall be mine abode, and it shall be Zion, which shall come forth out of all the creations which I have made; and for the space of a thousand years the earth shall rest. (Moses 7)

Edited February 12 by teddyaware

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

If everyone is naturally a descendant of Noah, how is a remnant of his seed being found among all nations a specific sign or a task for the Lord to fulfill in the last days?

The typical understanding is

There is a distinction between a mere biological seed and the covenant seed. The "call" of Verse 51 says the Lord would "call upon the children of Noah." This implies a spiritual gathering. In the last days, Noah’s descendants are identified and reclaimed through the Gospel. In scriptural terms, a "remnant" often refers to a faithful group preserved for a specific purpose. The fulfillment in the last days involves finding those who are willing to keep the same oaths Enoch and Noah kept.

The Two Covenants include the Everlasting Covenant of Peace that the earth won't be flooded again and Noah’s seed will remain. Then the promise that the Lord will return to "fulfill the oath". In Verse 60, He is coming back because the Seed of Noah and the City of Enoch (Zion) are meant to meet. The "how" is essentially the Gathering of Israel from every nation. Missionaries are "calling" upon the children of Noah in every nation. Offering the same "Only Begotten" (verse 50) framework to those descendants. 

It is a legal guarantee, an "unalterable decree," the Lord ensured that no matter how wicked the world became in the last days, not to wipe them out and start over, Noah's human race and specifically the line of the priesthood, would never be completely wiped out.

But there are some speculative theories

In the "Local Flood" Theory, it is suggested the Flood might have been a localized but catastrophic event. If the Flood was local, it follows that other groups of people, not present in Noah's immediate region, would have survived. Under this view, the "unalterable decree" that Noah’s seed would be found among all nations (Moses 7:52) is fulfilled as Noah’s descendants eventually migrated and intermarried with these other surviving populations.

The Bible mentions groups like the Rephaim, Anakim and other "giants" appearing after the Flood. Or how one of the wives of Noah’s sons, traditionally Ham’s wife, Egyptus, is often the subject speculation regarding multiple lineages. Or that the term "Rephaim" refers to a spiritual or political class rather than a biological race. A class of "mighty men" (Hebrew: gibborim) who were aristocratic, violent, and highly influential. These groups represent a "counter-Zion", a civilization that stood in direct opposition to Enoch’s.

It makes as much sense as the bits in early Genesis talking about how this person is the ancestor of all the people that dwell in tents and this one the same for craftwork and this one the same for music. Then they all die in the flood and yet they still have tents and crafts and music.

Probably one of those cases where Genesis is mashing different stories together and they don’t all make sense together.

[marineland]

On 2/11/2026 at 6:29 PM, Pyreaux said:

The typical understanding is

There is a distinction between a mere biological seed and the covenant seed. The "call" of Verse 51 says the Lord would "call upon the children of Noah." This implies a spiritual gathering.

Where is that typical understanding taught? 

There are 7 instances of "children" in that chapter. Which refer to "covenant"
seed?

[Pyreaux]

6 hours ago, marineland said:

Where is that typical understanding taught? 

There are 7 instances of "children" in that chapter. Which refer to "covenant"
seed?

It is a thread woven through several LDS scriptures and the teachings of modern prophets who define the difference between being a physical descendant and a spiritual heir of any given Patriarch. LDS commentary on these verses emphasizes that being a "child of Noah" or "Abraham" by birth is insufficient; the "fulfillment" occurs only when the remnant is "called" (as in Moses 7:51) and responds.

Joseph Smith taught that the "Holy Ghost" has a physical effect on those who are not of the literal seed of Abraham. He taught that when a person from a "Gentile" (non-covenant) lineage receives the gospel, the Holy Ghost literally "purges out the old blood" and grafts them into the covenant line (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 149–150).

Doctrine and Covenants 84 describe transmutation from biological to covenant seed upon receiving the priesthood.

"For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies. They become the sons of Moses and of Aaron and the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom, and the elect of God." (D&C 84:33–34)

This reinforces the idea that "Noah’s Seed" isn't just about a family tree; it’s about recovering the line of Priesthood authority.

Latter-day Saint theology leans heavily on Romans 9. "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children... That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (Romans 9:6–8)

When you read Moses 7:60, where the Lord says He will "fulfil the oath... concerning the children of Noah," He is doing so via The Law of Adoption.

Verse 1 "children of men" is biological, ideally the Covenant seed as the target of Enoch's missionary "call."
Verse 26 "children of men" are biological, fallen as those who "hate their own blood" and face the flood.
Verse 33 "children of men" are biological, fallen being identified as those without affection for God.
Verse 37 "children of men"  are biological, fallen as those whose "doings" cause the heavens to weep.
Verse 45 "my children" is biological, all of Earth's inhabitants causing her pain through wickedness.
Verse 51 "children of Noah" are the Covenant seed, those whom the Lord will "call" out of the nations.
Verse 60 "children of Noah" are Covenant seed, the group for whom the Second Coming fulfills an oath.

[The Nehor]

I don’t think that the people who wrote all those scriptures about the seed of Abraham meant all this talk about the spiritual descendants of Abraham nor did they know that if Abraham existed was probably an ancestor to probably everyone on the planet by today so there probably aren’t people who need to have their blood purged. We are all mutts. The most unbelievable part of that awful Da Vinchi code book was that there was exactly ONE survivor that was a descendant of Jesus Christ two millenia later. Sure, Jan.

Paul revised the understanding of what it meant to be part of the covenant people but even he seems to have drawn a line between Jews and Gentiles.

I also don’t think that the authors of Genesis thought Noah’s line was about priesthood. I have no idea what Joseph Smith meant by this. Maybe he didn’t believe in a global flood? Maybe he was copying talk of Abraham’s seed and backdating it without thinking it through.

[Calm]

25 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Sure, Jan.

Dan?

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Dan?

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Ah, I thought you meant the author.  

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Ah, I thought you meant the author.  

No, I didn’t even remember the author’s name.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

No, I didn’t even remember the author’s name.

Dan Brown

[Pyreaux]

Hugh Nibley highlights that the "Seed of Noah" represents a specific priesthood lineage that survives the world's wickedness.

"The promise to Enoch is not merely that humans will exist, but that the righteous order (Zion) will have a remnant on earth. The 'Children of Noah' are those who are reclaimed from the world... They are the heirs of the priesthood who allow for the return of the City of Enoch." (Hugh Nibley, Enoch the Prophet, 45)

The "Other Survivors" Theory is in a more literal reading of ancient texts like the Book of Giants (which Hugh Nibley famously compared to the Book of Moses), suggesting that some of these "mighty men" (gibborim) might have survived,, if not literally, in other ways, like the "Rephaim" may refer to a spiritual or political class rather than a separate biological race, and not 50-foot monsters.

In this view, the fulfillment of the covenant in Moses 7:60 is about Christ returning to settle the score between the "Seed of Noah" (the covenant people) and the "Remnant of the Giants" (the systems of wickedness). That kind of reminds me of the Jewish serpent's seed narrative. Jesus' "sons of vipers" and "your father the devil".

[marineland]

On 2/17/2026 at 11:16 PM, Pyreaux said:

"For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies. They become the sons of Moses and of Aaron and the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom, and the elect of God." (D&C 84:33–34)

Can one person obtain two priesthoods?

On 2/17/2026 at 11:16 PM, Pyreaux said:

This reinforces the idea that "Noah’s Seed" isn't just about a family tree; it’s about recovering the line of Priesthood authority.

Which of Noah's sons recovered the line of priesthood authority?

[Pyreaux]

1 hour ago, marineland said:

Can one person obtain two priesthoods?

Which of Noah's sons recovered the line of priesthood authority?

Many were called to the Royal Melchizedek Priesthood, like Prophets, while they were still Levitical temple priests. But the Melchizedek Priests ideally have lesser priesthood within them. Patriarchal Priesthood was prophet, priest and king before Moses split them up.

Priesthood came through Shem to Abraham (1 Chronicles 1:24-27)

Edited February 20 by Pyreaux

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Hugh Nibley highlights that the "Seed of Noah" represents a specific priesthood lineage that survives the world's wickedness.

"The promise to Enoch is not merely that humans will exist, but that the righteous order (Zion) will have a remnant on earth. The 'Children of Noah' are those who are reclaimed from the world... They are the heirs of the priesthood who allow for the return of the City of Enoch." (Hugh Nibley, Enoch the Prophet, 45)

The "Other Survivors" Theory is in a more literal reading of ancient texts like the Book of Giants (which Hugh Nibley famously compared to the Book of Moses), suggesting that some of these "mighty men" (gibborim) might have survived,, if not literally, in other ways, like the "Rephaim" may refer to a spiritual or political class rather than a separate biological race, and not 50-foot monsters.

In this view, the fulfillment of the covenant in Moses 7:60 is about Christ returning to settle the score between the "Seed of Noah" (the covenant people) and the "Remnant of the Giants" (the systems of wickedness). That kind of reminds me of the Jewish serpent's seed narrative. Jesus' "sons of vipers" and "your father the devil".

In one comical rabbinical discussion it was theorized that one of the giants held on to the side off the ark and survived.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Many were called to the Royal Melchizedek Priesthood, like Prophets, while they were still Levitical temple priests. But the Melchizedek Priests ideally have lesser priesthood within them. Patriarchal Priesthood was prophet, priest and king before Moses split them up.

Priesthood came through Shem to Abraham (1 Chronicles 1:24-27)

There is no evidence to suggest that prophets were called exclusively from the Levite tribe. Also the prophets of the Kingdom of Israel and Judah were conduits for God’s word. They were not leaders in the sense that modern prophets are nor did they preside over things. Prophets were usually supported by the state and were usually not liked. Prophets tended to have bad news. Plus they were weird. They went into ecstatic states, inflicted pain on themselves, did weird performative things, and probably used hallucinogenics. Not much like what we think of as a prophet.

[Calm]

22 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

In one comical rabbinical discussion it was theorized that one of the giants held on to the side off the ark and survived.

I thought that was Cain

[Pyreaux]

26 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

There is no evidence to suggest that prophets were called exclusively from the Levite tribe. Also the prophets of the Kingdom of Israel and Judah were conduits for God’s word. They were not leaders in the sense that modern prophets are nor did they preside over things. Prophets were usually supported by the state and were usually not liked. Prophets tended to have bad news. Plus they were weird. They went into ecstatic states, inflicted pain on themselves, did weird performative things, and probably used hallucinogenics. Not much like what we think of as a prophet.

Many Bible authors seem to suggest they were temple priests prior to their calling, like Isaiah. Not saying that its typical for all prophets, maybe just ones with the priestly art to write books. A few had overlapping authority. Like Samuel was first in the line of the Great Prophets, last of the regal Major Judges, and a Levitical Priest.

[Calm]

33 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Prophets were usually supported by the state and were usually not liked.

How did they get appointed?

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

How did they get appointed?

It is unclear. We know there were “schools of the prophets”.

There were likely prophets that worked for the monarch and some who were rogue. Someone like Elijah would probably count as a rogue prophet. In what we have in the story of Jeremiah he seems to have been somehow beholden to the King. He was out of favor with the court though and got thrown in prison. The King would still visit him secretly though.

Ezekiel and Zechariah are probably the best examples of ecstatic prophecy. Very poetic and quite bizarre.

If Ezekiel was actually laying immobile for months on end to represent prophecy there is a good chance he was also neurodivergent in some way. Also Hosea marrying prostitutes is kind of odd. These weren’t prim and proper people who delivered clear messages like how we expect prophets to act.

They are more like what Plato exalted in the divine madness that could reveal secret truths or his belief that poets could utter deep and sublime things that the poet didn’t even understand.

During and perhaps after the reign of King Josiah it is likely they centered the prophets in Jerusalem to at least some extent the same way they centralized religious sacrifice.

Before that communities might have had a local prophet that would explain why things were going wrong. What sins against the Lord or the gods caused the substandard harvest or that sudden hail storm or whatever. Functioning as a kind of shamanistic intermediary to help keep the cosmic order correct to prevent disasters.

After the monarchy failed prophets would likely be much more independent and it faded away. The institution probably needed government support to flourish widely. Later prophets slipped more and more into apocalypticism. John the Baptist and Jesus and Paul could be categorized as being apocalyptic. The Preacher of Righteousness as Qumran taught apocalypticism. By the time of the last major Jewish revolt against Rome the rabbis were sick and tired of apocalypticism. It seemed to get a lot of people killed. Or as one of my favorite Jewish academics said (paraphrasing) “If your military plan relies on a deus ex machina to win, stay home.”

Edited February 21 by The Nehor

[longview]

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Someone like Elijah would probably count as a rogue prophet.

Nah. Elijah passed his "mantle" (symbolic of authority direct from God) to Elisha. Clearly at God's direction and callings. To be "mouthpieces" for God to His people. To teach. To warn. To chastise.

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Ezekiel and Zechariah are probably the best examples of ecstatic prophecy. Very poetic and quite bizarre.

Ezekiel and Zechariah were visionary. Proclaiming the word of God in describing current circumstances and outlining future events.

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Also Hosea marrying prostitutes is kind of odd.

No. Hosea did this at the command of the Lord to symbolize Israel's abject apostasy and to emphasize His determination to "win" back His children of the Covenant. His LOVE is amazing and persistent.

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

They are more like what Plato exalted in the divine madness that could reveal secret truths or his belief that poets could utter deep and sublime things that the poet didn’t even understand.

FALSE. They clearly understood God's persistent warnings and relayed God's SAVING commands to pull His people out of danger and out of darkness.

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Functioning as a kind of shamanistic intermediary to help keep the cosmic order correct to prevent disasters.

How typical of you to slime the works of God in bringing about the purpose of the Plan of Happiness. Earth being our "temporary home".

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The institution probably needed government support to flourish widely.

Institution? Like the Sanhedrin? No, people simply needed to stay faithful to the word of God and NOT be like Eli and his two sons that corrupted the office of priests at the Tabernacle.

Apostasy and priestcraft is what caused the destruction of the people. NOT because of diminishing support of "government" but due to increasing wickedness at every level.