LDS Church Files Brief In Trans Supreme Court Case

[smac97]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

The Supreme Court has issued its ruling:

Court rules that states can exclude transgender athletes from girls’ and women’s sports teams

A Grok summary of the Court's opinion:

I think this was the correct outcome.  It's a difficult topic, to be sure.

Thanks,

-Smac

Supreme Court Delivers Landmark Title IX Win for Women's Sports

Quote

Justice Brett Kavanaugh authored the opinion. Justices Roberts, Thomas, Alito, Gorsuch, and Barrett joined in the majority opinion, with Thomas and Gorsuch filing concurring opinions. Justice Sotomayor filed an opinion concurring in part and dissenting in part, joined by Justices Kagan and Jackson - so, the decision would appear to be right along ideological lines.

Here's a key excerpt from the decision:

Those “[p]hysical differences between men and women” are “enduring.” United States v. Virginia, 518 U. S. 515, 533 (1996).  The differences include, among other things, height, weight, strength, speed, endurance, and jumping ability. Therefore, in contact sports, forcing female athletes to compete against males can create significant safety risks. And in virtually all competitive sports, forcing female athletes to compete against males can undermine competitive fairness.

To ensure equal opportunity for female athletes, schools therefore typically maintain separate women’s and men’s sports teams.  Women’s teams compete against other women’s teams, and men’s teams compete against other men’s teams. To ensure equal opportunity, Title IX’s regulations also require schools to provide the women’s and men’s teams equivalent equipment, facilities, scheduling, and the like. 

That is an apt summary of the facts of human biology, and this decision is a victory for advocates of women's sports.

We seem to be reasserting biological sex as the means of differentiation, as opposed to "gender identity."  I think that is a necessary and appropriate conclusion.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Nofear]

The three dissenting judges disagreed with the sex reasoning but also sided that the stautory claims of the cases failed to meet title iX protections.

[The Nehor]

Disappointed but unsurprised that some of the reasoning about AMAB people on estrogen retaining their advantage is based largely on junk science. There have only been a few studies of the effects of hormone therapy on retention of a strength advantage. In most cases the advantage is lost within two years and that cis women typically have more testosterone than transwomen. Despite this the decision blithely makes statements about what advantages AMAB people have. Sadly this kind of acceptance of sparse or bad data has become a bit of a standard for the current Supreme Court.

I really wonder what will happen if a transman tries to join a men’s team. Will this decision apply as well as transmen do rapidly gain strength. I was in a combat class with a transguy for a few years. At first I could generally throw him around like a rag doll. He started T and within a year and a half of being on it the situation was much closer and he then started to get the advantage. A transwoman in the same class could toss me around (she was in the reserve and was a bit of a gym rat). Within a year and a half I could restrain her whole body using only one or two limbs. She told me I was getting stronger. I don’t think that was it.

I am not too worried about this decision on its own. Based on what I have read that impacts less than a dozen people. If more laws are passed that might increase but it will still be pretty small. I do worry about this precedent. Also worry that this will embolden more amateur ‘transvestigators’ to harass transgirls and cis girls on sports teams that might not look feminine enough, a practice that has been increasing in recent years. Tomboyish girls already face problems. Now they get to have their gender questioned. Good thing this is about defending women and will protect them………nope, I could not keep a straight face.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Will this decision apply as well as transmen do rapidly gain strength. I was in a combat class with a transguy for a few years.

Any comment in the case about trans men joining women’s teams?

[webbles]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I really wonder what will happen if a transman tries to join a men’s team. Will this decision apply as well as transmen do rapidly gain strength. I was in a combat class with a transguy for a few years. At first I could generally throw him around like a rag doll. He started T and within a year and a half of being on it the situation was much closer and he then started to get the advantage. A transwoman in the same class could toss me around (she was in the reserve and was a bit of a gym rat). Within a year and a half I could restrain her whole body using only one or two limbs. She told me I was getting stronger. I don’t think that was it.

Some transmen have already joined men's teams.  Schuyler Bailar is a trans man who joined Harvard before transitioning and was on the women's swimming team.  After he transitioned, his coach offered him to either join the men's or women's team.  He chose the men's and competed there.  He finished his college career in 2019.

Chris Mosier is another trans man who was on the men's olympics team in 2020.  He competed at the olympic's trials but unfortunately was injured so didn't pass that stage.

I think we would need to see a trans man actually win some competitions before any outrage would occur.  The whole fairness issue on the transwomen side (men taking women's podium spots) hasn't yet occurred with transmen.  They definitely can be stronger than the average man, but it doesn't seem like they can be stronger than the top tier athletic men (still to be determined, though).

[InCognitus]

It seems like the general anti-doping rules should apply to all sports, which would be definitely problematic for transmen, and I'm not sure how that would apply to transwomen.  But the basic idea to anti-doping is to prohibit athletes from getting an unfair competitive advantage in sports through doping (however one wants to define that).  For transwomen, at what point is it an unfair competitive advantage?

[The Nehor]

19 hours ago, InCognitus said:

It seems like the general anti-doping rules should apply to all sports, which would be definitely problematic for transmen, and I'm not sure how that would apply to transwomen.  But the basic idea to anti-doping is to prohibit athletes from getting an unfair competitive advantage in sports through doping (however one wants to define that).  For transwomen, at what point is it an unfair competitive advantage?

I understand the reasoning for this but genetics are an unfair competitive advantage and pretending there is some blank slate equality underneath can seem silly.