telnetd Posted January 22 Author Posted January 22 (edited) On 1/19/2026 at 1:44 PM, The Nehor said: The doesn’t describe anything that would have been noticeable to mortals like in the Gospel of Matthew’s account or the Book of Mormon’s account. Ok. So a prophecy of Samuel was given that could not be verified by the Nephites. Moses 7 used the phrase "and the earth groaned; and the rocks were rent". Enoch, a mortal, saw it. He also saw the saints being resurrected but doesn't limit this to only two people groups. Using your form of interpretation, the event of 3 Nephi 8:18 was not verified by the Nephites either. "And the rocks were rent in twain; they were broken up upon the face of the whole earth". Edited January 22 by telnetd
telnetd Posted January 22 Author Posted January 22 On 1/19/2026 at 7:30 PM, InCognitus said: Can you explain how your understanding as explained above fits with what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:29 and the context of his argument in favor of believing in the resurrection? Can you please put those verses in your own words so I can understand what you believe it means, and why it would be a persuasive argument to believe in the resurrection for his readers? Paul is saying that the living being baptized for faith in Christ is not worth the danger they are placing themselves in if Christ is not risen. For some, he used the term "else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all?" Focus on "what shall they do". What shall we do if Christ is not risen? We shall remain in the grave. We shall have no hope. He is not arguing their baptism for their faith in Christ proves the resurrection really occurred.
The Nehor Posted January 22 Posted January 22 46 minutes ago, telnetd said: Ok. So a prophecy of Samuel was given that could not be verified by the Nephites. Moses 7 used the phrase "and the earth groaned; and the rocks were rent". Enoch, a mortal, saw it. He also saw the saints being resurrected but doesn't limit this to only two people groups. Using your form of interpretation, the event of 3 Nephi 8:18 was not verified by the Nephites either. "And the rocks were rent in twain; they were broken up upon the face of the whole earth". I was talking about the resurrected beings visiting people personally. Enoch gave a prophecy about a resurrection but didn’t specify that many mortals in the vicinity would be visited by those beings. If I prophesied that a thousand people will be resurrected on Sunday it wouldn’t be verifiable. If I said they would also visit people and be seen by many it would be much more verifiable. If no one says they saw anyone I am probably a false prophet and need to be stoned.
The Nehor Posted January 22 Posted January 22 51 minutes ago, telnetd said: Paul is saying that the living being baptized for faith in Christ is not worth the danger they are placing themselves in if Christ is not risen. For some, he used the term "else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all?" Focus on "what shall they do". What shall we do if Christ is not risen? We shall remain in the grave. We shall have no hope. He is not arguing their baptism for their faith in Christ proves the resurrection really occurred. Playing parsing games with a (bad) English translation won’t show anything. You would have to establish that this is a viable reading of the Greek original.
InCognitus Posted January 23 Posted January 23 9 hours ago, telnetd said: Paul is saying that the living being baptized for faith in Christ is not worth the danger they are placing themselves in if Christ is not risen. For some, he used the term "else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all?" Focus on "what shall they do". What shall we do if Christ is not risen? We shall remain in the grave. We shall have no hope. He is not arguing their baptism for their faith in Christ proves the resurrection really occurred. That's a rather creative way of trying to get around what the verse says, but I'll say the same thing as what was posted above, the Greek text doesn't support what you are saying. See above for my discussion on the meaning of the Greek word hü-pe'r in that verse. Just to make sure I'm understanding your meaning, let me reword the verse based on what I understand you to be saying just to see if it makes any sense: "Else what shall they do [by being baptized] for the [purpose of being] dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are then then baptized [for the purpose of being] dead?". Does that capture what you are trying to say it means?
telnetd Posted January 24 Author Posted January 24 On 1/22/2026 at 1:53 PM, The Nehor said: I was talking about the resurrected beings visiting people personally. Enoch gave a prophecy about a resurrection but didn’t specify that many mortals in the vicinity would be visited by those beings. If I prophesied that a thousand people will be resurrected on Sunday it wouldn’t be verifiable. If I said they would also visit people and be seen by many it would be much more verifiable. If no one says they saw anyone I am probably a false prophet and need to be stoned. The account says they were resurrected and appeared to beings in the highest division of the celestial kingdom. Unless they saw Jesus and no one else while there. "And the Lord said unto Enoch: Look, and he looked and beheld the Son of Man lifted up on the cross, after the manner of men; And he heard a loud voice; and the heavens were veiled; and all the creations of God mourned; and the earth groaned; and the rocks were rent; and the saints arose, and were crowned at the right hand of the Son of Man, with crowns of glory; And as many of the spirits as were in prison came forth, and stood on the right hand of God; and the remainder were reserved in chains of darkness until the judgment of the great day". That didn't happen as is described in Matthew 27:52-53. They were not caught up to the Son's right hand. Was Enoch's prophecy about one resurrection in one geographical place or multiple resurrections across the world?
telnetd Posted January 24 Author Posted January 24 On 1/22/2026 at 10:56 PM, InCognitus said: Just to make sure I'm understanding your meaning, let me reword the verse based on what I understand you to be saying just to see if it makes any sense: "Else what shall they do [by being baptized] for the [purpose of being] dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are then then baptized [for the purpose of being] dead?". Does that capture what you are trying to say it means? No. What shall we do if Christ is not risen? We shall remain in the grave. We shall have no hope. He is not arguing their baptism for their faith in Christ proves the resurrection really occurred.
InCognitus Posted January 24 Posted January 24 1 hour ago, telnetd said: No. What shall we do if Christ is not risen? We shall remain in the grave. We shall have no hope. He is not arguing their baptism for their faith in Christ proves the resurrection really occurred. But we are talking about 1 Corinthians 15:29, not 1 Corinthians 15 verses 14 and 17 where Paul made the point you are reiterating above. How does what you are saying above fit into 1 Corinthians 15:29? What did Paul mean by "baptism FOR (in behalf of) the dead"? <- "In behalf of" or in proxy for is the meaning of the Greek word "for" in that verse. Reword the verse to explain how what you are saying above fits into what Paul actually wrote: "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" (1 Corinthians 15:29) 2
telnetd Posted January 29 Author Posted January 29 On 1/24/2026 at 2:27 PM, InCognitus said: But we are talking about 1 Corinthians 15:29, not 1 Corinthians 15 verses 14 and 17 where Paul made the point you are reiterating above. How does what you are saying above fit into 1 Corinthians 15:29? What did Paul mean by "baptism FOR (in behalf of) the dead"? <- "In behalf of" or in proxy for is the meaning of the Greek word "for" in that verse. Reword the verse to explain how what you are saying above fits into what Paul actually wrote: "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" (1 Corinthians 15:29) Some Corinthians reportedly underwent baptism (perhaps a second time) intending benefit for unbaptized dead, assuming resurrection would apply it retroactively. He responds by pointing out inconsistencies in their beliefs. He neither commands nor endorses this "baptism on behalf of the dead". He simply references it as evidence that even contemporaries act as if resurrection is real. Paul's question is rhetorical, and the implied answer is: "there would have no reason to do it at all". In other words, if the dead do not rise, then being baptized for the dead is pointless and meaningless. According to Catholic tradition, suffrages like Mass, alms, and prayers benefit the dead (especially in purgatory), but not sacraments like baptism. Another way to see it is: "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead [for Christ], if the dead rise not at all? Latter-day Saints, in this ordinance, don't really know if that person being proxied for accepted or rejected it in the spirit world. Here's another rhetorical question: "why trust in baptizing the dead when you don't know if that baptism was accepted?" The implied answer: you pretend or hope it was. 1
InCognitus Posted February 2 Posted February 2 On 1/29/2026 at 10:58 AM, telnetd said: Another way to see it is: "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead [for Christ], if the dead rise not at all? You seemed to be getting closer to accepting what the verse actually says, but then you say what you said above. This is what you said previously, and I simply can't make any sense of it in the context. Please EXPLAIN why you put Christ in place of "the dead" in this verse above. Christ is not dead, and this goes counter to Paul's entire argument. How do you view Christ as "the dead" making any sense in this verse? On 1/29/2026 at 10:58 AM, telnetd said: Latter-day Saints, in this ordinance, don't really know if that person being proxied for accepted or rejected it in the spirit world. Here's another rhetorical question: "why trust in baptizing the dead when you don't know if that baptism was accepted?" The implied answer: you pretend or hope it was. You could ask the same question about Christ offering salvation to everyone: "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2) Why did Jesus do that even though he knows that some won't accept his offering? Does Jesus pretend or hope they will accept it? Imagine this discussion. Jesus says, "I didn't atone for you because I knew you wouldn't accept it". Person responds, "How could I accept something that wasn't offered to me?" The atonement is offered to all, and likewise the ordinance of baptism is offered to all, whether the person accepts it or not. Those who participate in baptism for the dead are simply doing for others that which they can't do for themselves, which is what proxy ordinances are all about. The primary purpose of the New Testament is to testify of the greatest "proxy" of all, the suffering, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the sins of the world. Peter speaks of the "proxy" nature of Christ's suffering just before he makes his comments on the visit of Jesus to the spirits in prison: "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God..." (1 Peter 3:18). The whole nature of salvation is by "proxy" through Christ. (Incidentally, the Greek word "for" in the phrase, "the just for the unjust" is the exact same Greek word translated as "for" in 1 Corinthians 15:29, baptism "for" the dead). And baptism for the dead is a way that all of us can participate with Christ in the work of salvation. 2
teddyaware Posted February 2 Posted February 2 (edited) On 1/29/2026 at 12:58 PM, telnetd said: Some Corinthians reportedly underwent baptism (perhaps a second time) intending benefit for unbaptized dead, assuming resurrection would apply it retroactively. He responds by pointing out inconsistencies in their beliefs. He neither commands nor endorses this "baptism on behalf of the dead". He simply references it as evidence that even contemporaries act as if resurrection is real. Paul's question is rhetorical, and the implied answer is: "there would have no reason to do it at all". In other words, if the dead do not rise, then being baptized for the dead is pointless and meaningless. According to Catholic tradition, suffrages like Mass, alms, and prayers benefit the dead (especially in purgatory), but not sacraments like baptism. Another way to see it is: "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead [for Christ], if the dead rise not at all? Latter-day Saints, in this ordinance, don't really know if that person being proxied for accepted or rejected it in the spirit world. Here's another rhetorical question: "why trust in baptizing the dead when you don't know if that baptism was accepted?" The implied answer: you pretend or hope it was. Jump through any illogical hoop and circumvent all reason pertaining to the God of infinite love for each member of the race of man, that he created in his own holy image, just to be able escape the revealed glorious latter-day revelation that God has done, is now doing, and will forever do all he possibly can do, without violating the eternal principle of agency, to bring to pass the cleansing, healing and redemption of his most beloved creation. Edited February 2 by teddyaware 1
telnetd Posted February 2 Author Posted February 2 12 hours ago, InCognitus said: Please EXPLAIN why you put Christ in place of "the dead" in this verse above. Christ is not dead, and this goes counter to Paul's entire argument. How do you view Christ as "the dead" making any sense in this verse? It was just a thought - "Else what shall they do which are baptized for Christ if Christ did not rise at all?" I had Romans 6:4 in mind. 12 hours ago, InCognitus said: And baptism for the dead is a way that all of us can participate with Christ in the work of salvation. Catholic tradition teaches people can assist the deceased with their purification in purgatory so they can leave temporal punishment and enter heaven. Do souls exit spirit prison when your church performs all the ordinances for them?
Calm Posted February 2 Posted February 2 (edited) 2 hours ago, telnetd said: Do souls exit spirit prison when your church performs all the ordinances for them? How long have you been posting on the board on this? Sometimes it feels like you should know this stuff better than the typical member, but you keep asking the same questions over and over again. Once souls have repented, if the ordinances of baptism and confirmation have been done they may leave spirit prison, whatever that means, whether that’s a location or a state of being. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world?lang=eng Quote These spirits have agency and may be influenced by both good and evil. They may progress as they learn gospel principles and follow them. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in temples, they may leave spirit prison and dwell in paradise https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world-study-guide?lang=eng For those who do not accept the gospel and Christ’s atonement, they get to leave after judgment and resurrection. Edited February 2 by Calm 4
InCognitus Posted February 2 Posted February 2 2 hours ago, telnetd said: It was just a thought - "Else what shall they do which are baptized for Christ if Christ did not rise at all?" I had Romans 6:4 in mind. But Christ is not "the dead", and nowhere is he referred to as "the dead", not even in Romans 6:4. Baptism symbolizes death, burial, and resurrection. And in 1 Corinthians 15:29, the Greek word translated as "the dead" is plural, it refers to the collective "dead", not the singular "Christ": Inflected: νεκροὶ Root: νεκρός Code: A-NPM Long: Adjective - Nominative Plural Masculine Speech: Adjective Case: Nominative Number: Plural Gender: Masculine 2 hours ago, telnetd said: Catholic tradition teaches people can assist the deceased with their purification in purgatory so they can leave temporal punishment and enter heaven. Do souls exit spirit prison when your church performs all the ordinances for them? See the answer from Calm, above. 2
The Nehor Posted February 2 Posted February 2 5 hours ago, teddyaware said: Jump through any illogical hoop and circumvent all reason pertaining to the God of infinite love for each member of the race of man, that he created in his own holy image, just to be able escape the revealed glorious latter-day revelation that God has done, is now doing, and will forever do all he possibly can do, without violating the eternal principle of agency, to bring to pass the cleansing, healing and redemption of his most beloved creation. So you are arguing that we should accept that interpretation of the text because it would be nice to believe that? Even if it is historically unlikely to be accurate? 1
telnetd Posted February 4 Author Posted February 4 On 2/2/2026 at 2:59 PM, Calm said: Once souls have repented, if the ordinances of baptism and confirmation have been done they may leave spirit prison, whatever that means, whether that’s a location or a state of being. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world?lang=eng I checked that article. Quote President Joseph F. Smith taught that faithful, righteous women will also be "authorized and empowered to preach the gospel and minister" in the spirit world. [6 - See Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. (1939), 461; see also Doctrine and Covenants 138:30–32, 36–52. Doctrine and Covenants 138:36-37 says "Our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh. That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words". Are Eve and her faithful daughters considered to be these "spirits of the prophets"? Quote "These individuals will be brought to a state of repentance through their own suffering. Then, they will acknowledge the Savior as their Redeemer and through His power will be resurrected and then inherit the telestial kingdom of glory" [10 - See Doctrine and Covenants 76:81–88]. Are terrestrials also brought to a state of repentance through their suffering? Verses 58-59 says "The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God. And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation". Does this apply to residents of all kingdoms of glory?
InCognitus Posted February 4 Posted February 4 51 minutes ago, telnetd said: Doctrine and Covenants 138:36-37 says "Our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh. That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words". Are Eve and her faithful daughters considered to be these "spirits of the prophets"? I've already seen this episode, several times now. Reruns get old (unless it is Gilligan's Island). I'm changing the channel.
InCognitus Posted February 4 Posted February 4 (edited) 1 hour ago, Calm said: 1 hour ago, telnetd said: checked that article. And? And....we interrupt this program to bring you an old rerun. Your regular program has been preempted by this deflection to an OLD topic. Edited February 4 by InCognitus
Calm Posted February 4 Posted February 4 19 minutes ago, InCognitus said: And....we interrupt this program to bring you an old rerun. Your regular program has been preempted by this deflection to an OLD topic. Give him a moment. Maybe he is like my dad who needed follow-up questions to stay on topic once it’s been resolved enough in his own head because he was never one to waste time or effort.
ZealouslyStriving Posted February 5 Posted February 5 (edited) On 2/2/2026 at 11:59 AM, Calm said: Sometimes it feels like you should know this stuff better than the typical member, but you keep asking the same questions over and over again. That's what happens when someone is not asking questions to actually learn- the answers just breeze on past them. Edited February 5 by ZealouslyStriving
telnetd Posted February 6 Author Posted February 6 On 2/4/2026 at 3:23 PM, Calm said: And? From the article: Quote President Joseph F. Smith taught that faithful, righteous women will also be "authorized and empowered to preach the gospel and minister" in the spirit world. [6 - See Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. (1939), 461; see also Doctrine and Covenants 138:30–32, 36–52. Doctrine and Covenants 138:36-37 says "Our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh. That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words". Are Eve and her faithful daughters considered to be these "spirits of the prophets"? Quote "These individuals will be brought to a state of repentance through their own suffering. Then, they will acknowledge the Savior as their Redeemer and through His power will be resurrected and then inherit the telestial kingdom of glory" [10 - See Doctrine and Covenants 76:81–88]. Are terrestrials also brought to a state of repentance through their suffering? Verses 58-59 says "The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God. And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation". Does this apply to residents of all kingdoms of glory?
Calm Posted February 6 Posted February 6 (edited) When I ask “And?”, typically I am asking for your explanation, conclusions, opinions. Answering with a quote and another question tells me nothing about what something means in your view. It is not having a discussion. Can you at least explain why you always shift to another question rather than finish or at least engage with something you yourself has started? This is not a criticism, but trying to understand how you think, what your purpose is here to better address your posts. Because at this point it feels like you start a one on one basket ball game, pass off the ball and instead of joining in running down the court, passing back and forth until there’s a basket, you go off to start another game, leaving the person you invited to play alone on the court. Edited February 6 by Calm 2
InCognitus Posted February 6 Posted February 6 26 minutes ago, Calm said: When I ask “and”, typically I am asking for your explanation, conclusions, opinions. Answering with a quote and another question tells me nothing about what something means in your view. It is not having a discussion. Can you at least explain why you always shift to another question rather than finish or at least engage with something you yourself has started? Because at this point it feels like you start a one on one basket ball game, pass off the ball and instead of joining in running down the court, passing back and forth until there’s a basket, you go off to start another game, leaving the person you invited to play alone on the court. This is the primary reason I haven't posted some responses I have prepared to some of the discussions I was having with theplains (aka telnetd, GoCeltics, marineland). There's really no point if there is no real discussion. It gets old fast.
telnetd Posted February 9 Author Posted February 9 On 2/6/2026 at 2:35 PM, Calm said: When I ask “And?”, typically I am asking for your explanation, conclusions, opinions. Answering with a quote and another question tells me nothing about what something means in your view. From the Spirit World article, it shows a future tense, about women being authorized to preach the gospel in the spirit world. This is after the advent of Joseph Smith. I assume this authorization is coming from the men who are already there. Doctrine and Covenants 138:36-37 says that it was Jesus who authorized the spirits of the prophets to preach to those in the darkness part of the spirit world during those 3 days. So I was wondering if you believe these "spirits of the prophets" were also women? I would say no since I don't believe that part. But if I did, I would have to say the spirits of the prophets would only be men if Eve and her faithful daughters were not also prophets in the Old Testament. Another teaching in the Spirit World article said "These individuals will be brought to a state of repentance through their own suffering. Then, they will acknowledge the Savior as their Redeemer and through His power will be resurrected and then inherit the telestial kingdom of glory" 10 [See Doctrine and Covenants 76:81–88]. To me it seems that that condition is only applied to the telestial inhabitants but not the terrestrials ones. Verses 58-59 says "The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God. And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation". To me it seems to apply to residents of all kingdoms of glory. Maybe paying the penalty of transgressions is some type of suffering in a state of purgatory. 1
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