The Vision of the Redemption of the Dead

[JVW]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

That is easy. Universalism doesn’t give you anyone to hate, exclude, and other.

Also if people were choosing a faith based primarily on how nice God is and how everyone goes onto eternal joy there are other faiths that promise this to a much greater degree than the LDS Church does.

You tease. I want to know about some of these, what other faiths are there that assure their congregates that nearly everyone on Earth will be in heaven one day because God is so nice?

[longview]

18 hours ago, Calm said:

I not saying this is you, but it may be Longview or teddy, I need more detail on their views to be sure though, would like to hear what he sees as an example of a true choice to accept or reject the Gospel).

It may be a matter of MANY small degrees. The Great Jehovah will righteously judge and love and encourage and plead with all children to take the steps needed for ultimate exaltation. I think of Jesus exclaiming to Satan: "Get thee behind Me!" Was He encouraging Satan to follow Him?

17 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Let's settle the matter:

@longview do you believe that anyone will be excluded forever from the Celestial Kingdoms if they haven't had a valid chance to receive and comprehend the Gospel?

No. Jesus greatly desires people to be willing to repent and ALLOW His Atonement to have power to redeem them. His joy was tremendous even as He suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane. But as I have indicated in my original post: it would be MUCH better to accept Gospel in mortality and NOT procrastinate the day of repentance or put off until the next world. Jesus will judge the sincerity of his heart. If the procrastinator was insincere, then he probably has less access to the power of the Atonement and suffer more for his sins in the next world.

12 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

And I am sure @longview would agree that only God can determine who had a valid opportunity in this life, and that His view may be way more merciful than we currently understand. Why would you assume that he thinks any different as a Latter-day Saint?

Absolutely agree. Mosiah 27:31 - "Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye."

 

Edited December 4, 2025 by longview

[Calm]

3 hours ago, longview said:

If the procrastinator was insincere, then he probably has less access to the power of the Atonement and suffer more for his sins in the next world.

But will he in the end as he goes through repentance and possibly have a change of heart be able to progress to exaltation as if he had never procrastinated or at least the Celestial Kingdom?

Iow, I am unsure what you mean by less access to the power of the Atonement.  Do you mean it will be harder for them until they become more accepting or that they will not be able to access the full Atonement even if they want to as they lost that Chance or perhaps they had proven their nature will never actually want to full power of the Atonement and they will stop at a certain point of progression because of lack of desire to progress more and that nature can never be changed even with eternities and infinite experiences to come (in essence they were born that way, to receive a certain level of progress and no more)? Or something else?

Edited December 4, 2025 by Calm

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, JVW said:

You tease. I want to know about some of these, what other faiths are there that assure their congregates that nearly everyone on Earth will be in heaven one day because God is so nice?

Universalists. Amongst the Church Fathers that includes Origen, Clement of Alexandria, and Gregory of Nyssa. I like Gregory the best. He is also the only ancient writer we know of that declared that slavery as an institution is inherently sinful. Sadly his view did not catch on.

Later the Christian universalist schools lost out to those who thought the wicked were punished eternally. The ones who thought sinners were annihilated also lost.

Then it came back. You can find lots of varieties of Universalism within Christianity today. Some believe in a kind of purgatory but that all will escape it. The LDS Church has something similar (sort of) but they also tier up heaven so that some will never get into the cool kids club. Some don’t even have that purgatory.

So yeah, that is a lot more pleasant. Of course the variant of this is that there is a kind of universalism but is limited to a specific group (those good old Book of Mormon Zoramites for example). This gives you the joy of a kind of guaranteed salvation but also lets you other and marginalize the inferiors who aren’t getting in.

Edited December 5, 2025 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, longview said:

It may be a matter of MANY small degrees. The Great Jehovah will righteously judge and love and encourage and plead with all children to take the steps needed for ultimate exaltation. I think of Jesus exclaiming to Satan: "Get thee behind Me!" Was He encouraging Satan to follow Him?

It can mean that but Jesus was talking to Peter.

6 hours ago, longview said:

No. Jesus greatly desires people to be willing to repent and ALLOW His Atonement to have power to redeem them. His joy was tremendous even as He suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane. But as I have indicated in my original post: it would be MUCH better to accept Gospel in mortality and NOT procrastinate the day of repentance or put off until the next world. Jesus will judge the sincerity of his heart. If the procrastinator was insincere, then he probably has less access to the power of the Atonement and suffer more for his sins in the next world.

This is what apostles and prophets say but do they really have an insight into how this works after death. I am dubious. It also seems like a really reflexive thing you would say if someone says they aren’t too worried about it because they can change later. You would want to tell them that that is a bad idea. It might even be a bad idea but I find myself doubting that they checked in when giving the reason that it is harder to repent in the next world……especially considering almost everyone is going to repent in the next world. Is it really that much harder at that point?

6 hours ago, longview said:

Absolutely agree. Mosiah 27:31 - "Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye."

I doubt this is going to happen. I can buy the first part but everyone agreeing that their supposed willful rejection of God deserves eternal punishment and that this is justice by any measure. Yeah, not buying it.

This is screwed up Romans 1 type thinking where all sinners actually know the gospel is true and just willfully reject it because they want to sin and practice idolatry. And this rejection is also said to be what causes all kinds of wonderful vices. Also God leaves these reprobate non-Israelites/non-Christians and because of God departing from them they (amongst other things) become very very gay. So Paul clearly had no idea what he was talking about since that is not how any of that works. It is just some Israelite bigotry he picked up somewhere.

Edited December 5, 2025 by The Nehor

[manol]

20 hours ago, The Nehor said:

That is easy. Universalism doesn’t give you anyone to hate, exclude, and other.

I'm a universalist, small "u", as I'm not a participant in any religion or similar organization.  So I'm not really qualified to use the word "we" in this context because I don't really know what other universalists believe, capitalized or not.

Anyway I would agree with you, in that the universalist perspective I hold at this time doesn't give me anyone to hate, exclude, "other", or look down on for any reason, including those I disagree with on internet discussion boards.  I believe it is my responsibility to be prudent, but I do not believe it is my privilege to pass judgment on anyone, nor to withhold forgiveness from anyone for anything.  Nor is it my privilege to respond to darkness with darkness and not have it affect me. 

Or to put it another way, imo we are to be simultaneously wise (as serpents) and harmless (as doves). 

Please don't interpret these lofty ideals as me actually claiming that that's where I'm at; I fall far, far short of my ideals and am still very much a "work in progress"... except for those times when I'm a "work in regress"...

13 hours ago, JVW said:

You tease. I want to know about some of these, what other faiths are there that assure their congregates that nearly everyone on Earth will be in heaven one day because God is so nice?

I lack @The Nehor's knowledge and understanding of the historical context of universalist thought.  And I cannot tell you what any universalist-leaning faiths tell their congregations. 

My belief is that Christ is the vine and we are already the branches; we don't have to become something we're not.  But one of the things we have to learn and choose is to no longer value the valueless, because doing so is an impediment to seeing the vine - seeing the Christ - in everyone. 

Edited December 5, 2025 by manol

[longview]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

8 hours ago, longview said:

If the procrastinator was insincere, then he probably has less access to the power of the Atonement and suffer more for his sins in the next world.

But will he in the end as he goes through repentance and possibly have a change of heart be able to progress to exaltation as if he had never procrastinated or at least the Celestial Kingdom?

You are going around in circles again. Let's recap the main points from my original post using one scenario (among many variations):

1. the man hears about the Gospel
2. he is impressed so he accepts baptism and maybe some other ordinances
3. after a while he becomes uncomfortable about repenting of some unresolved sins
4. he may keep some of those sins undercover
5. but he becomes less enthused about keeping up appearances
6. so he will drift further away from the church even though he KNOWS he cannot justify his secrets and addictions
7. he disregards the healing power and transformative effect of relying on Jesus' Atonement (he might be apathetic about repenting)
8. he rationalize making this lifestyle choice thinking he will get it taken care of in the next world
9. upon his death years later, he "wakes up" in hell suffering torments for all the evil choices he made and having a terrible time overcoming his addictions (spiritual desire)
10. authorized missionaries from Paradise make a visit with the man and persuade him to try again for getting back on the covenant path
11. because he "disrespected" the Atonement while in mortality, he has to suffer for all his sins
12. any addictions from mortality will be amplified so he has to seriously work harder than he would have during earth life (he did not care about the healing and strengthening power of the Atonement he could have obtained)
13. after the man has paid the price for his OWN sins, he will then be able to start making progress resuming the covenant path
14. D&C 82:21 "And the soul that sins against this covenant, and hardeneth his heart against it, shall be dealt with according to the laws of my church, and shall be delivered over to the buffetings of Satan until the day of redemption."

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Iow, I am unsure what you mean by less access to the power of the Atonement.

See the list above.

The sinner can obtain the healing power and transformation provided by the Atonement only if he is willing to patiently walk with Jesus (be yoked with Him). The benefits of the Atonement are NOT showered on the person all at once. It is acquired incrementally day by day "until the perfect day." If the sinner is NOT willing to stay on the covenant path during mortality then he is trampling this power under his feet. Therefore he will NOT in the next world be able to make use of the Atonement and will have to suffer for his OWN sins.

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Do you mean it will be harder for them until they become more accepting or that they will not be able to access the full Atonement even if they want to as they lost that Chance or perhaps they had proven their nature will never actually want to full power of the Atonement and they will stop at a certain point of progression because of lack of desire to progress more and that nature can never be changed even with eternities and infinite experiences to come (in essence they were born that way, to receive a certain level of progress and no more)? Or something else?

This is a terrible word salad. Just know that Jesus will render righteous judgements. The sinner has to decide for himself what kind of commitment he is willing to make and to give full accounting for his own actual desires. Mercy cannot rob justice. Blessings can only be obtained thru obedience.

[longview]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

11 hours ago, longview said:

It may be a matter of MANY small degrees. The Great Jehovah will righteously judge and love and encourage and plead with all children to take the steps needed for ultimate exaltation. I think of Jesus exclaiming to Satan: "Get thee behind Me!" Was He encouraging Satan to follow Him?

It can mean that but Jesus was talking to Peter.

I am pretty sure you are aware Jesus first said this to Satan at the beginning of His three year ministry when He went out into the wilderness and completed His 40-day fast. See Luke 4:8.

[Calm]

30 minutes ago, longview said:

You are going around in circles again

Thanks for being so detailed, it makes it very easy to understand your thoughts.

Not really going in circles though, just stuck at the end as I feel there’s a bit more to the story to be fully resolved.     I want to know what you see as possible as the end result in eternity of someone who knowingly rejects the gospel.  You have covered everything except the possible outcomes at judgment time after they have repented and turned to Christ and the Father.  I did try to list the possibilities, that was apparently confusing, so I will keep to the simplest phrasing this time…I hope.

Quote

Mercy cannot rob justice.

But some people see it as justice that someone who rejects exaltation with sufficient knowledge (as judged by Christ) in this life to never get the chance to accept exaltation in the next life no matter if they repent and resume obedience.  I am wondering if you are one of them and if so, your reasoning.

So my question boils down to “can such people receive exaltation?”

Think of it as step 16 where step 15 is “through obedience he has progressed as far as possible”.

Your use of “the covenant path” makes me believe you don’t believe they are limited in any way since most consider the covenant path the path that ends in exaltation.

Btw, I agree that your description is the current revealed doctrine on the process though I see hell and Paradise as more states of mind and ability to be one with God and each other than locations, not sure from your phrasing how you see them.  I very much believe it is better to repent as early as possible to avoid unnecessary suffering and to benefit from the blessings one receives through obedience.  Probably the only thing I might really differ with you on in this context is how much of an actual choice is involved with acceptance or rejection of the Gospel in this life appears to occur.  On that I am undecided.

Edited December 5, 2025 by Calm

[Chum]

I think this was kind of left behind and it made me feel unsatisfied.

On 12/2/2025 at 12:20 PM, telnetd said:

That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression,

Why couldn't Jesus personally go and preach to them when he already preached to the 
living who were in rebellion and transgression during his three-year ministry? 

TelentD's response noted that Jesus was a busy guy and left it there. But I don't think that aligns with the above quote.

I think Teddy kind of touched on it with some variant of They suck so they deserved it.  While I grant that this sentiment is extremely popular now (and is the front runner for USA's next official motto), it always travels light, never bringing much evidence with it.

Which is my point here.  "because of their rebellion and transgression," isn't an explanation, it's a condition. That doesn't tell us why Jesus could not go. Why couldn't he?  What is this thing that can prevent the actual Christ from going somewhere? If he tried, what would bystanders witness?

Now I do understand something. As far as statements go, "because of their rebellion and transgression," is practically preloaded with implications. But if the last decade has taught us anything at all about Leading Statements, there's a high risk of a lie lurking near by. We ought not accept them without clear proof. 

Edited December 5, 2025 by Chum

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Chum said:

Which is my point here.  "because of their rebellion and transgression," isn't an explanation, it's a condition. That doesn't tell us why Jesus could not go. Why couldn't he?  What is this thing that can prevent the actual Christ from going somewhere? If he tried, what would bystanders witness?

To me the most satisfying of the unsatisfactory reasons had been similar to my reasoning why people might be assigned lower kingdoms and my reasoning of why no impure thing can enter the presence of God. And that is that which is impure will have pain of some sort in the presence of true pure.  There was perhaps no physical shell or veil at that time that would have shielded their spirits from the full impact of encountering the Lord’s spirit.

But perhaps instead to progress and repentance they needed to exercise some form of faith and if they had seen the resurrected Christ, they would have known the truth instead of having to learn to trust those who were missionaries and change their own hearts through accepting Christ with faith.

And a third possibility…if hell and heaven are states of mind, then it is likely outside of the Celestial Kingdom, perception of exalted spirits (or soon to be) could be quite limited to those still experiencing Hell.

[MustardSeed]

Dont we all reject the gospel every day, willfully, as we sin? 
as an active member of the church, do my sins stack up differently than somebody who, for example, decides not to go to church on Sunday even though they’ve been taught the gospel?

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Dont we all reject the gospel every day, willfully, as we sin? 
as an active member of the church, do my sins stack up differently than somebody who, for example, decides not to go to church on Sunday even though they’ve been taught the gospel?

Though with so little information it’s impossible to generalize, I would say that the sins would stack up differently if the church goer’s church attendance is indicative of a measure of faith unto repentance and a fighting spirit that’s striving to overcome his weaknesses. For instance, in my opinion the tobacco addicted church convert who keeps trying to give up his habit but stumbles is more justified before God than the church convert who tried to quit once but then gave up the fight. To the casual observer the sin looks the same, but there’s a world of difference between the man who keeps on battling to overcome his addiction and the one who loses all hope and surrenders to his addiction.

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

Though with so little information it’s impossible to generalize

And this is precisely why when we judge we are sinning- and in the process, willfully rejecting the gospel. 

Edited December 5, 2025 by MustardSeed

[JVW]

9 hours ago, Chum said:

I think this was kind of left behind and it made me feel unsatisfied.

TelentD's response noted that Jesus was a busy guy and left it there. But I don't think that aligns with the above quote.

I think Teddy kind of touched on it with some variant of They suck so they deserved it.  While I grant that this sentiment is extremely popular now (and is the front runner for USA's next official motto), it always travels light, never bringing much evidence with it.

Which is my point here.  "because of their rebellion and transgression," isn't an explanation, it's a condition. That doesn't tell us why Jesus could not go. Why couldn't he?  What is this thing that can prevent the actual Christ from going somewhere? If he tried, what would bystanders witness?

Now I do understand something. As far as statements go, "because of their rebellion and transgression," is practically preloaded with implications. But if the last decade has taught us anything at all about Leading Statements, there's a high risk of a lie lurking near by. We ought not accept them without clear proof. 

Maybe it had something to do with why Mary couldn't touch Jesus because He hadn't ascended to His Father yet. Since Jesus was in the spirit world before His ascension, maybe there were some mysterious limitations on where He could be. Maybe because He wasn't resurrected He couldn't contain His glory and His mere presence would have caused those in prison to have their eyes melt off and their souls evaporated back into primordial intelligence.

[telnetd]

On 12/2/2025 at 6:12 PM, teddyaware said:

Just as it is here on earth where converts to the Lord are taught by authorized servants to help prepare them for the blessed day when they will be more fully worthy to meet the Lord in person,

Are the worthy those who meet Him in person, who will live with Him?

[ZealouslyStriving]

24 minutes ago, JVW said:

Maybe it had something to do with why Mary couldn't touch Jesus because He hadn't ascended to His Father yet. Since Jesus was in the spirit world before His ascension, maybe there were some mysterious limitations on where He could be. Maybe because He wasn't resurrected He couldn't contain His glory and His mere presence would have caused those in prison to have their eyes melt off and their souls evaporated back into primordial intelligence.

"touch" in the context mean "hold fast" or "cling unto".

Carry on.

[telnetd]

On 12/2/2025 at 5:17 PM, InCognitus said:

The prophets were the leaders that are named in the verses that follow (verses 38-56:  Adam, Eve, Abel, Noah, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Elias [aka Elijah], Malachi, "and many more", and Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young etc.). 

What about the many unnamed faithful daughters of Eve? Are they prophets too?

 

On 12/2/2025 at 5:17 PM, InCognitus said:

But they weren't the only ones sent, because verse 57 (which continues this line of thought) says:  "I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead."

"I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal 
life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, 
through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness 
and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead".

Sounds like the paradise side of the spirit world is not part of their ministry.

It speaks of faithful elders - what about faithful women who are not elders?

[longview]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

Probably the only thing I might really differ with you on in this context is how much of an actual choice is involved with acceptance or rejection of the Gospel in this life appears to occur.  On that I am undecided.

As I keep saying, Jesus will be very thorough in discerning the thoughts, feelings, motivations, and actions of every person going thru all stages of existence. He will fully analyze circumstances and efforts of everyone from top to bottom, side to side, and frontwards and backwards. The most valiant and energetic will be ushered into the Celestial Kingdom in the morning of the First Resurrection. All others will be sorted out in descending order of faithfulness into the Second Resurrection and later dim bulb resurrections.

I would NOT be surprised if those that got "buffeted" in the place of torment will eventually make the CHOICE to go all the way to the Celestial Kingdom. The Atonement is what makes it possible. Jesus felt tremendous JOY as He partook of the "bitter cup" in the Garden of Gethsemane. He desires the BEST for everyone. But to serve in the Celestial Kingdom is NOT a frivolous choice. Sincerity and commitment is required.

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

What about the many unnamed faithful daughters of Eve? Are they prophets too?

 

"I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal 
life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, 
through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness 
and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead".

Sounds like the paradise side of the spirit world is not part of their ministry.

It speaks of faithful elders - what about faithful women who are not elders?

You are so concerned about inclusion or exclusion of women, yet you reject the doctrine of a heavenly mother.  Why?

[The Nehor]

12 hours ago, longview said:

You are going around in circles again. Let's recap the main points from my original post using one scenario (among many variations):

1. the man hears about the Gospel
2. he is impressed so he accepts baptism and maybe some other ordinances
3. after a while he becomes uncomfortable about repenting of some unresolved sins
4. he may keep some of those sins undercover
5. but he becomes less enthused about keeping up appearances
6. so he will drift further away from the church even though he KNOWS he cannot justify his secrets and addictions
7. he disregards the healing power and transformative effect of relying on Jesus' Atonement (he might be apathetic about repenting)
8. he rationalize making this lifestyle choice thinking he will get it taken care of in the next world
9. upon his death years later, he "wakes up" in hell suffering torments for all the evil choices he made and having a terrible time overcoming his addictions (spiritual desire)
10. authorized missionaries from Paradise make a visit with the man and persuade him to try again for getting back on the covenant path
11. because he "disrespected" the Atonement while in mortality, he has to suffer for all his sins
12. any addictions from mortality will be amplified so he has to seriously work harder than he would have during earth life (he did not care about the healing and strengthening power of the Atonement he could have obtained)
13. after the man has paid the price for his OWN sins, he will then be able to start making progress resuming the covenant path
14. D&C 82:21 "And the soul that sins against this covenant, and hardeneth his heart against it, shall be dealt with according to the laws of my church, and shall be delivered over to the buffetings of Satan until the day of redemption."

Physical addictions get stronger when the physical body is gone? I know where this comes from but it is just not very logical. It is just apostolic rationalizing without any revelation or scripture backing it up.

Plus it is almost always about addictions. We have to make all of these moral failings instead of medical problems and then wonder why they keep happening. Le sigh.

[Calm]

On 12/4/2025 at 2:19 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Honestly, I don't know what you really believe about most subjects. You really don't take a firm stand in much of anything as far as I can see. That is why you are so perplexing to me.

I have put the effort into presenting my beliefs and I have seen others do the same, but not many posters track the beliefs and sometimes even in the same thread something I have explained in detail previously doesn’t seem to have registered, so I have decided that’s not a good investment of my time and space when my purpose in a thread is not informing or persuasion, but figuring out what and how other people think.  I may even agree with people I am asking the “why”, “what”, and “how” of because I want to know how they arrived at a belief or idea, including why they reject some ideas.

I have a very strong trust based on my personal experience of what I see as core doctrines of the Gospel, but I also trust Joseph when he describes our faith this way:

Quote

The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it." - Joseph Smith-

There are many other aspects of the Restored Gospel I am relatively certain about, but am open to modification of as I learn more (such as the possibility that with Joseph using intelligence interchangeably with spirit, our original nature as a person was as a spirit, not an intelligence though this does not change my rock solid belief I and every other person who ever existed on this earth is a child of God in the most ultimate sense of the parent-child relationship; I am not invested in how we got there, it only matters to me that relationship exists eternally).

I definitely believe in continuing revelation, line upon line learning, building on the truth that we have, but that also includes correction even of the prophets as has been demonstrated in the past and accepted by prophets themselves (I love the story that shows Brigham’s humility towards God in a moment where he corrects what he spoke earlier in the day with a ‘that was Brigham speaking earlier’).

In most cases, I see science and religion as two separate categories, but if there is influence, outside my core beliefs, science should inform religion, not the reverse, imo.  Scripture is not a history or science text, but a look into spiritual world views of many very different people at different times in their lives.  One reason I feel no absolute need to harmonize scripture, even if from the same person.  If my spiritual understanding and therefore interpretation of revelation I have received changes over time, I assume that others may have the same experience.  I consider it a possibility that in the moment of engagement with the Spirit at the level of prophets communing with God that we describe as “quickening”, there may be able to be a fully informed understanding…and so perhaps at that time someone could truly reject the Gospel.  Perhaps this is what happened with Cain (I don’t see a reason to assume quickening can only happen with the very pure in heart as it seems to have happened to the Brother of Jared during a time he wasn’t actively seeking the Spirit and I consider Alma and Paul’s experience of hell and then redemption as a form of quickening).  I find it very hard to believe that we have in normal every day life the ability to be true agents and reject the Gospel without ‘undue influence’ from our environment and physical functions given what I know of how people develop ideas, are motivated, form memories, etc.

Edited December 5, 2025 by Calm

[Calm]

4 hours ago, JVW said:

Maybe it had something to do with why Mary couldn't touch Jesus because He hadn't ascended to His Father yet

That thought occurred to me as well and I see it as a possibility still, but I believe the more likely interpretation according to scholars is “do not hold on to me” or something like that as I am going from memory.  Meaning iirc, that he couldn’t stay as she wanted him to and she needed to release him as he had others to visit as well, etc.

added:  I see Zealous already mentioned this

Edited December 5, 2025 by Calm

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I know where this comes from

The movie Ghost? 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, longview said:

would NOT be surprised if those that got "buffeted" in the place of torment will eventually make the CHOICE to go all the way to the Celestial Kingdom. The Atonement is what makes it possible. Jesus felt tremendous JOY as He partook of the "bitter cup" in the Garden of Gethsemane. He desires the BEST for everyone. But to serve in the Celestial Kingdom is NOT a frivolous choice. Sincerity and commitment is required.

Thank you.

There is something joyful for me when I hear others express this same belief in possibilities of full redemption and acceptance of Christ and Christ’s acceptance of us no matter what we have done as long as we are willing to turn back towards him.  Even if we don’t always agree about how we are getting there, it feels like we are both expecting a grand family reunion, but with our best selves attending…better than our best selves because God has pulled us all the way in.  And that just feels so right and good to me.  I want others to have the same hope of the next life…or at least an equally joyous one.