The Church is a Cult

[Abulafia]

I HAVE ONE OBJECTION DON'T TELL ME YOU LEFT MORMONISM FOR THE RIGHT REASONS IF YOU LEFT FOR THE WRONG REASONS.

Dale. Golly gosh. This is really going off topic.

Okay...

Good point though.

Is there a right reason and a wrong reason to join the church

and is there a right reason and a wrong reason to leave?

What is your opinion? (maybe it has already been hashed out on another thread!)

[Bertram]

Gentlemen,

CULT...specific system of worship; devotion to a person, idea, or activity; popular fashion.

SECT...subdivision of a religious or political group, esp. one with extreme beliefs......sectarian....of a sect; narrow-minded.

So you/we do not fall out!

Which one fits either of your arguments?

[Guest KW Graham]

Every Church is a cult.

[3DOP]

KW Graham says...

Every Church is a cult.

Good point Kdub. I don't understand why the word "cult" has taken on such pejorative connotations.

Question: If every church is a cult, are all cults churches?

Next Question: Is a cult guilty of brainwashing the more successfully it persuades people to believe what it says?

Observation and Question: It appears to me that people who are indifferent to religion and don't think there is revealed religious truth are the ones who scream the loudest about so-called brain-washing. If only cults brainwash, does that make the National Education Assciation a cult?

My cult is the Roman Catholic Church to the exclusion of every other.

3DOP

[Bertram]

3DOP,

How does the RCC qualify as a...CULT?....see my Dictionary definitions above!

Is it because of... eg...."devotion to a person"?...or other?

[1dc]

purpose of this life? What happens when I die?

Are you so willing to be open that you constantly instruct your child in all of the world's religions and philosophy equally, including paganism, atheism and devil worship? Do you have a truly broad plan of teaching which began at birth and do you allow society to freely introduce such ideas to your children whenever society might choose to do so?

You almost sound indifferent to which choice your child may take. It seems like you do not have a formed opinion on your family's eternal welfare that is at least as important as their physical well being.

I've read a lot of complaints but not much in the way of a formed and improved ideology on what is the right way to teach someone to feel, call, and cherish the Spirit of God . . and more importantly how to keep that Spirit as a constant companion while others may introduce truly negative influences relative to that Spirit (mind you I didn't say facts which may challenge and require faith).

So please, share with us a brighter light and the richer warmth of the Spirit of Truth.

[1dc]

. . I am still rather different and weird than the others.

IMO one of the weirdest people in our ward is a convert of nearly 1 year . . and she testifies with one of the greatest spirits as well. I hope she never conforms!

[1dc]

I, in effect, excommunicated myself...(if that makes sense).

LOL, I think i know what you mean, though I doubt many believing LDS members would agree that it "makes sense" (given their belief in one true Church).

Of course, we do hope your participation here helps you to both better understand yourself and why LDS beliefs probably encompass much of what you do believe and why being an LDS member doesn't cause you to lose the simple Gospel Christ taught . . rather, it should inspire you to continue striving to live it more fully..

[1dc]

Check the definition I gave Dale. I was careful to define terms. Whether you regard it as name calling depends only on the 'value' you yourself apply to the term.

Rather than defend, perhaps consider avoiding the appearance of name calling and giving unintended offense . . it's hard for most of us . . but it is an enabling skill.

[Abulafia]

Check the definition I gave Dale.

[Abulafia]

You missed however giving us a clear view of how you introduce your children to the Spirit and helping your child learn to keep it while studying other religions (which interestingly enough is something everyone who hold the Spirit and a misssionary mindset must do if they expect to relate to others and do their job well). 

Okay, I have a few minutes before I go out, so I thought I'd have a go at this one, though it is off topic...

1DC, I promise you, that what I learned from both my activity and non-activity in the church, is that the 'spirit' as you call it really doesn't leave you. Essentially, that 'spirit' is available to all. I felt the spirit as I watched my father die, and for 3 months after as I was lifted on these wonderful wings that enabled me to cope with probably the hardest time of my life. I have felt the spirit as I watched my own son suffer with a bone tumour, and constantly break his arm, it has guided me in how to help him compensate for all the things he cannot do. I have felt the spirit as I watched my mother in law yesterday gradually let go with great dignity of her life. I have felt the spirit as I teach the children in school, I have felt the spirit as I sit in churches other than the LDS (that was a great surprise but true non the less). My life is rich in the spirit, it may not be as rich as yours 1DC, I cannot judge. But it is rich non the less.

As for my child. This really is a wonderful world, it is wonderful that we are here. There is so much to learn while we are here, and so little time to do it. I have already told you my feelings on religion, and I try by the way I live to show that loving principles are better than non-loving ones.

(If this sounds a bit pompous, I apologise, but it is genuinely how I feel)

[ave maria]

I have felt the spirit as I watched my mother in law yesterday gradually let go with great dignity of her life.

Sorry about your mother-in-law.

[charity]

Abu, I am sorry for the loss of companionship you all have with your mother-in-law, but what great rejoicing there was on the other side for all those who had been looking forward to her return home.

[juliann]

Juliann, I honestly can't respond to this...I have no idea of the point you are trying to make...

Oh, I think you understand quite well. It is called hypocrisy. You "brainwash" your own children while making the same act of educating a pejorative to use on others. It was your word and your efforts to wiggle away from it by "defining" it "carefully" are unconvincing and condescending.

[juliann]

Thanks Idc, listen...lol I got myself warned off the board, and pretty much attacked by a few, probably in their eyes with good reason. I take it in good part. I have apologised for the 'appearance of name calling' though I will say it once more, I was very, very careful to define my terms.

If you are being "warned" and "attacked" off the board you need to notify the mods and forward the emails so they can take action.

[juliann]

I, in effect, excommunicated myself...(if that makes sense).

LOL, I think i know what you mean, though I doubt many believing LDS members would agree that it "makes sense" (given their belief in one true Church).

What doesn't make sense about it? I wouldn't stay in a church I had no respect for. Why would Mormons think any differently? Do you seriously think anyone wants to make themselves a hypocrite or associate with them? Leaving a church is the honorable thing to do.

[1dc]

1DC, I promise you, that what I learned from both my activity and non-activity in the church, is that the 'spirit' as you call it really doesn't leave you. Essentially, that 'spirit' is available to all. . . .

I'm sorry for the loss you and your partner (husband I assume from a past VT comment) have had as well. And I'm amazed that you can find composure and time to respond . . hope you can take all the time you need. When you return:

Of course, LDS believe the spirit will strive with all and that is not a surprise . . but that is somewhat less than what I was referring to. I was referring to helping a child learn to keep a the comforter close by avoiding activities which would cause the spirit to withdraw at least temporarily. And going beyond that to activities which nurture the spirit to partake, hold, and manifest even as Christ suggests we can. How do you do *that* without strongly influencing them? And why should you (or the Church) do so?

. . . loving principles are better than non-loving ones. 

Completely agree.

I got myself warned off the board, and pretty much attacked by a few, probably in their eyes with good reason.  I take it in good part.

Such actions are good examples why the advice is good for all of us. Whether we apply it to those sending such email or the actions we take which communicate a message we don't intend.

I was very, very careful to define my terms.

You were. That you needed to says much about the issues you raise (and the people who respond to them poorly)

I maintain, looking back that the church held a very strong psychological hold on me. Perhaps there are those who would argue that it isn't worth its salt if it doesn't.

I would probably be one of those. Christ isn't looking for us to be lukewarm, but as you say loving needs to be manifest in most things.

But at some point don't all of us, have to step outside the forest to see the wood for the trees???

LOL, you lost me with this one. Normally I've heard that quoted differently and generally when one is outside the forest one isn't seeing the wood!

[1dc]

I, in effect, excommunicated myself...(if that makes sense).

LOL, I think i know what you mean, though I doubt many believing LDS members would agree that it "makes sense" (given their belief in one true Church).

What doesn't make sense about it? I wouldn't stay in a church I had no respect for. Why would Mormons think any differently? Do you seriously think anyone wants to make themselves a hypocrite or associate with them? Leaving a church is the honorable thing to do.

yes, I understand your point, which I expect is what the poster referred to as I acknowledged.

But asking LDS members who believe this is Christ's Church if it makes sense for those with less faith in the restoration to separate from Christ doesn't make sense to me. We'd much rather have their friendly and honest association in worshipping Christ with us than not. Though I understand they (and some perhaps not-so-Christlike members) may feel more comfortable if they go elsewhere, that really isn't any part of what we do (or should) hope for. IMNSHO.

[Bertram]

Abulafia,

Sorry about your bereavement.

God's Love and Comfort to you and your Wife.

[Avatar4321]

In the 3rd Grade I was sited as Gifted and talented. And placed in an excelled program. I always scored off the charts on the sciences. But I was just average in all the others with a couple of below averages in the humanites. (iirc)

I recently took a brain test for my college courszes to figure out which side of the brain I was most proficient with so I could concentrate on those things that I was having difficulty with. I scored off the charts on the front left lobe (agian the sciences, and logic), but was average in the left rear and right front lobes and below average in the right rear lobe (again Humanities and interpersonal).

Maybe one of these days your gifts will help you spell better;)

[Avatar4321]

Control of Information

You seem to be justifying the churches practice of controlling information, by saying that everyone does it. (though I am sure that many on here would argue that the church does not control information)

[juliann]

But asking LDS members who believe this is Christ's Church if it makes sense for those with less faith in the restoration to separate from Christ doesn't make sense to me. We'd much rather have their friendly and honest association in worshipping Christ with us than not. Though I understand they (and some perhaps not-so-Christlike members) may feel more comfortable if they go elsewhere, that really isn't any part of what we do (or should) hope for. IMNSHO.

We are not talking about less faith here. When someone is to the point of proselyting against any church I believe they are doing harm in any number of ways. I do not think people of character hide out because there are benefits...while going on message boards and such to speak against what they pretend to be. We see that a lot here....people deceiving family and friends for some perceived advantage and justifying it based on what those other people may do that will not be to their liking. I see absolutely no advantage to a church or the person if they can be productive and honest elsewhere.

[Abulafia]

Juliann, will ya'll stop boxing people who leave the church. This is the first place I have ever felt comfortable enough to ask the awkward questions that I couldn't ask anywhere else.

I am not trying to poison any well, and even though I have openly admitted that I have come not to believe in much of LDS doctrine, that doesn't mean to say that I don't respect the people that do.

I'm not sure about Joseph Smith, I am not sure about the Book of Mormon, The Book of Abraham and The Pearl of Great Price, though I appreciate that they contain some really good things. I am not sure about Brigham Young. I am not sure Simon Southerton got it right or wrong. On all these issues, in reality, unless someone has come up with a failsafe proof, the jury is still out.

Just because I have come to one conclusion based on the evidence that I have to hand, doesn't mean to say I am right.

My personal opinion about good people, is that they use their intelligence and their heart in perfect balance in order to be more christ-like, whether they are christian or not. I am interested in these people, and they are found in and outside the LDS church. Didn't Joseph Smith understand that when he saw Alvin? there in the Celestial Kingdom.

I am not your enemy.

Abulafia

[Abulafia]

Thanks for all your expressed sympathies, I didn't expect any response to that and it made me feel good to read your wishes. It is a part of life and we all go through it I know. There's now an empty house, just round the corner. Makes you realise how futile the collection of material things is, you can't take any of them with you, only 'love'. I know it sounds quite trite, but it (love)is priceless non the less!! She was a wonderful MIL and a superb nanny.

Abulafia

[starhy]

"I hope they call me on a mission - when I grow a foot or two..."

"BOM stories that my teachers tell to me..."

"Tithing as "fire-insurance" as taught in seminary"

"Families can be together forever - through Heavenly Fathers plan"

"Oh How Lovely was the Morning..."

"I know this church is true (as spoken in the ear of a mother to her 3 year old on fast and testimony meeting).

The list goes on and on..... but this type of thing happens in all religions. Yes, it's all "brainwashing" or "programming"... whichever term you prefer.