The Church is a Cult

[Magyar]

Teaching = what your organization of choice does.

Brainwashing = what other organizations do.

[docrick]

"I hope they call me on a mission - when I grow a foot or two..."

"BOM stories that my teachers tell to me..."

"Tithing as "fire-insurance" as taught in seminary"

"Families can be together forever - through Heavenly Fathers plan"

"Oh How Lovely was the Morning..."

"I know this church is true (as spoken in the ear of a mother to her 3 year old on fast and testimony meeting).

The list goes on and on..... but this type of thing happens in all religions. Yes, it's all "brainwashing" or "programming"... whichever term you prefer.

Hogwash. Brainwashing, what a load of crap. These are simply songs that express tenets of our religion.

Anyone who thinks the motives for writing these songs is the indoctrination of the unsuspecting are the same foolish people that believed playing the song "stairway to heaven" backwards led to satanic verses.

How low do the Lord's detractors shrink when they start bringing out the brainwashing card.

Sheesh

[Zakuska]

Perhaps we should burn all the teachers at the stake. Burn all the books. And all go find islands on the middle of ponds and eat bugs.

[Magyar]

Is it brainwashing to potty train a child? To teach him the alphabet? To look both ways before crossing the street? To train a new employee on your office's computer system?

Brainwashing is to force people to believe some concept against their will, by using torture or some other unsavory means. I think of North Korea. I don't think of any church that I have ever encountered.

[Zakuska]

Correct Church members can get up and leave any time they like.

And many do... right after the Sacrament.

Also, there is no law that says you have to send your kids to church or you will be thrown in Jail. However, with our school system there is. So which is truly "brainwashing" and "indoctrination"?

Church or State?

[Abulafia]

"I hope they call me on a mission - when I grow a foot or two..."

"BOM stories that my teachers tell to me..."

"Tithing as "fire-insurance" as taught in seminary"

"Families can be together forever - through Heavenly Fathers plan"

"Oh How Lovely was the Morning..."

"I know this church is true (as spoken in the ear of a mother to her 3 year old on fast and testimony meeting).

The list goes on and on..... but this type of thing happens in all religions.  Yes, it's all "brainwashing" or "programming"... whichever term you prefer.

Hogwash. Brainwashing, what a load of crap. These are simply songs that express tenets of our religion.

Anyone who thinks the motives for writing these songs is the indoctrination of the unsuspecting are the same foolish people that believed playing the song "stairway to heaven" backwards led to satanic verses.

How low do the Lord's detractors shrink when they start bringing out the brainwashing card.

Sheesh

Docrick, I (personally) tried to move off the term 'brainwashing' since though it got attention it was also met with prejudice.

Okay....Indoctrination, and subtle psychological control.

Juliann, seems to argue, yes...but everyone does it...What's the problem.

I was indoctrinated, and I was subtly? psychologically controlled... Whether that was a good thing or not will depend on your perspective of the church.

I still retain the right to say...Do I really believe this??? What DO I really believe?

............with no strings attached, and no-one impressing on me (whether in a spirit of love or arrogance...and the love one works better) that should I step back that I am going straigt to the devil... If I become so afraid of the consequences of questioning the church then I become bound and fettered by chains, and I lose the God given free agency that He himself gave me freely.

If I then choose to return, I return a stronger person...don't you think...???

[Abulafia]

Brainwashing is to force people to believe some concept against their will, by using torture or some other unsavory means. I think of North Korea. I don't think of any church that I have ever encountered.

I tried to define terms in the first post... They didn't include physical torture, isolation or forcing someone to eat bugs!!!!

I was talking about something far more subtle.

[docrick]

Abulafia, I think if you return you will only be stronger if you recognize once and for all that you have an answer, a spiritual confirmation that,

JOSEPH SMITH was a prophet and the Book of Mormon is true.

If you have spiritual confirmation that the above are true you cannot deny the fact that the LDS Church is true.

Welcome back, it will be good to be home.

[Abulafia]

Abulafia, I think if you return you will only be stronger if you recognize once and for all that you have an answer, a spiritual confirmation that,

JOSEPH SMITH was a prophet and the Book of Mormon is true.

If you have spiritual confirmation that the above are true you cannot deny the fact that the LDS Church is true.

Welcome back, it will be good to be home.

Docrick. Thankyou... I can't say it ... If I do get that confirmation. I will let you know okay!!!

[docrick]

Abulafia,  I think if you return you will only be stronger if you recognize once and for all that you have an answer, a spiritual confirmation that,

JOSEPH SMITH was a prophet and the Book of Mormon is true.

If you have spiritual confirmation that the above are true you cannot deny the fact that the LDS Church is true.

Welcome back, it will be good to be home.

Docrick. Thankyou... I can't say it ... If I do get that confirmation. I will let you know okay!!!

I would like that my friend.

I want you to know that no matter what you are going through in your life your Savior loves you.

In addition, the Savior has truly set up His kingdom on earth and that is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Not one member of the Church is perfect; don't feel you have to be either.

Some of the doctrines the Lord has given to men may not be easy or conform to our particular way of life or thoughts but remember where those doctrines come from-the Lord.

[Magyar]

Brainwashing is to force people to believe some concept against their will, by using torture or some other unsavory means. I think of North Korea. I don't think of any church that I have ever encountered.

I tried to define terms in the first post... They didn't include physical torture, isolation or forcing someone to eat bugs!!!!

I was talking about something far more subtle.

If it's so subtle, I don't think the term brainwashing fits.

Pressing your fingers against my fingers is not torture, as long as I have no problem with it -- we are friends being intimate, for example. You are sharing a nonverbal message of warmth and love. We are consensual and happy together.

It is not torture until the moment that you cross a certain threshold and cause me pain, say, by making a valiant attempt to crush my fingers in yours, because you have decided to hurt and punish me for thinking differently than you. Then we are talking about two completely different concepts.

A hug is a good thing. Rib-cracking is not a good thing.

The LDS church hugs me. It does not break my ribs.

[Abulafia]

The LDS church hugs me. It does not break my ribs.

....and I am 100 positive it hugs a good deal of the active members of this board also.

In my first post I spoke of 3 ways that I felt I (note I say I) had been psychologically controlled.... control of information, conformity issues, and a fear/reward worldview. Probably the fear/reward worldview was the strongest.

I think I have said before, that I remember one GA coming to a Stake Conference and telling us that once we had joined the church, that was it....you can leave, but you can't avoid the consequences of leaving. When I left (after 3 years of dilly dallying) I really, really believed that that was it.. I was going straight to the devil.

I didn't, I havn't and I know God still loves me. I'll say again, if I choose to join again, I will do it of my own free agency, and because I truly believe it. Since I do not truly believe 'some' of it...enough to probably stop the bishop in his tracks, refuse me a recommend, and label me as some kind of apostate.!!!! It is best to stay away....

[starhy]

"Teaching" a child how to use the potty is one thing. "Teaching" a child a religion is a completely different ball game. Yes, values are discussed at church, but whose values are they really? Why the aversion to crosses? Why can't you wear shorts to church? Why can't you drink caffinated drinks? I already know the "TBM" answers to all of those questions..... why? BECAUSE I WAS PROGRAMMED WITH THE ANSWERS.

The primary songs I mentioned in an above post are just subtle examples of the ways "teaching" takes place. Guilt is programmed at an early age. After hearing I hope they call me on a mission.... I know this church is true..... Oh how lovely was the morning.... better pay your tithing so you don't burn at the second coming...... I want to see the temple- I'm going there someday.... a million times over the years - there is nothing else to call it BUT brainwashing. Is it evil brainwashing? No, not really, but it does inflict fear and guilt in people to some extent. How do you feel if you miss church? How do you feel if you don't get married in the temple? How do men feel if they don't go on a mission? EXACTLY.

[1dc]

We are not talking about less faith here. . .

IMO we are. In case it's not clear to you, go back and read Abulafia's response(s). It's her thread . . her choice of words in the initial post was unfortunate, but she does have faith in some principles restored by JS, and of course we believe there is more truth than what she currently accepts. It's not like she is teaching a false doctrine in Sunday School. And we're not talking about other behavior that would call for witnesses at a council.

I actually think it's a positive thing that she hasn't been able to articulate a better plan for instilling a strong sense of faith than what we have. She may have resented things in her youth, but as a parent we learn things we sometimes weren't prepared for earlier. What I hope she will perhaps someday accept is that the plan of the Church is the best way, and that while whatever she felt may resonate with some it is not universally true. I'd rather support her in a wrong perception of partial faith, than wrongly eject her and lose an opportunity to teach as the Savior would.

[1dc]

. . ., but it does inflict fear and guilt in people to some extent. How do you feel if you miss church? How do you feel if you don't get married in the temple? How do men feel if they don't go on a mission? EXACTLY.

And that's for good reason, too. Best part of the plan is that repentance takes care of all that guilt.

[starhy]

Fear and guilt are of the ego. Being "programmed" or "psychologically controlled" and saying that it's GODS plan goes against the term "free will". We all have the ability to choose that which serves us and that which doesn't. It's not going to be the SAME THING for every person. If someone finds growth at the level of mormonism--- great. I'm not discounting it completely, but I do see problems when people are controlled by fear, because fear is not of God.

[docrick]

Fear and guilt are of the ego. Being "programmed" or "psychologically controlled" and saying that it's GODS plan goes against the term "free will". We all have the ability to choose that which serves us and that which doesn't. It's not going to be the SAME THING for every person. If someone finds growth at the level of mormonism--- great. I'm not discounting it completely, but I do see problems when people are controlled by fear, because fear is not of God.

Fear is not of God?

The scriptures are replete with admonishion to fear God.

Fearing God may not fit with our politically correct thoughts concerning the nature of diety but not matter we are told to fear God.

We know in the Millenium Christ will come and a significant percentage of the population will be wiped out. That puts fear in me to try hard and be among those who can "abide the day"

God the Father is a loving God.

The Savior is loving and compassionate.

That does not however preclude fear at least IMO.

[starhy]

The scriptures were written and interpreted by MEN.

God is LOVE. Fear and love are opposites. The ego creates fear- not GOD.

[starhy]

That does not however preclude fear at least IMO.

We know in the Millenium Christ will come and a significant percentage of the population will be wiped out. That puts fear in me to try hard and be among those who can "abide the day"

[Zakuska]

So let me get this right...

Do you beleive in an actual ressurection and rising from the grave of the physical bodies?

[rameumptom]

I'm really getting a big laugh out of the definition some are giving of "brain washing." Primary songs?????

Get real.

Influencing an individual by teaching through words and song has long been a method used by society to instill its mores. It is NOT brain washing. If it were, why doesn't it work better than it does? Brain washing does NOT develop guilty feelings, but rather imposes itself on an individual.

Or should we consider that the vast majority of parents in the world are "guilty of brain washing" for teaching their kids not to steal, kill, or leave the toilet seat up?

If Abulafia couldn't hack the gospel, that is her decision, and hers only. Don't blame the Church and its standard practices (which, btw, are used in most other christian churches also), for your failure to abide by its precepts.

We are all given agency to choose right from wrong for ourselves. No one is forced to believe in the Primary songs. If they were truly brain washing, none of us would have to bother with troublesome teenagers, as they would all have been brainwashed early on to be good, marry in the temple, and go on missions.

Any LDS parents who have kids (or were kids themselves) in Primary that went astray for at least a time, please put your favorite Smily here:

Abulafia's leaving the Church is prime example that it isn't brainwashing. Does it force us to make a tough decision? Of course. But brainwashing doesn't leave the person with a choice. If Abulafia struggled with the Church, it is because the Church's teachings are simply taught, and Abulafia's lifestyle and choices are not compatible. Of course she's felt guilt, as conflict always causes problems.

But claiming there is brainwashing is pure baloney.

[docrick]

The scriptures were written and interpreted by MEN.

God is LOVE. Fear and love are opposites. The ego creates fear- not GOD.

Nice philosophy; inconsistent with scripture but nice.

I respectfully disagree

[starhy]

Zakuska said : "So let me get this right...

Do you beleive in an actual ressurection and rising from the grave of the physical bodies?"

I believe that we are not our bodies. We are spirit in nature and that we are eternal. We are all peices of God. The story that is told by Christian religions is just that...... a story. So, no... I don't believe that it is an actual ressurection of the physical body. It is a ressurection of the mind and returning it to it's perfect state of forgiveness and love.

[starhy]

rameumptom-

I'm glad you got a chuckle out of it, but I don't really think it's a laughing matter... really.

Children are impressionable. It goes back to what your first thought or perception of something is- it was usually developed as a child FROM WHAT SOMEONE TOLD YOU. So yes, if a child hears "I know this church is true" every fast and testimony meeting and even gets it whispered in his/her ear when she/he gets up there by mom or dad... guess what? They will believe they have a testimony. Then when they have a spiritual experience (which happens outside of the church too by the way) they will automatically view that experience in the context of the church and feel that it validates the "testimony" that they have developed over the years.

Perhaps you should look up some information regarding brainwashing and cults and then you will see what I'm talking about.

Again I say that I don't think that what the church is doing is EVIL, but it is a form of mind control to keep members in line.

[docrick]

rameumptom-

I'm glad you got a chuckle out of it, but I don't really think it's a laughing matter... really.

Children are impressionable. It goes back to what your first thought or perception of something is- it was usually developed as a child FROM WHAT SOMEONE TOLD YOU. So yes, if a child hears "I know this church is true" every fast and testimony meeting and even gets it whispered in his/her ear when she/he gets up there by mom or dad... guess what? They will believe they have a testimony. Then when they have a spiritual experience (which happens outside of the church too by the way) they will automatically view that experience in the context of the church and feel that it validates the "testimony" that they have developed over the years.

Perhaps you should look up some information regarding brainwashing and cults and then you will see what I'm talking about.

Again I say that I don't think that what the church is doing is EVIL, but it is a form of mind control to keep members in line.

I'll accept your definition of mind control then.

I have practiced mind control on my kids since the day they were born.

Examples:

Don't touch that fire you'll get burned.

Don't stay out past curfrew or you'll face consequences

Don't fail classes at school or there will be consequences.

I could go on and on.

Hey come to think of it mind control is a good thing!

Thanks for helping me see the light. Anarchy and do whatever you feel like doing is very anti social.