The Church is a Cult

[Ein-Sof]

My brain is so clean, you could eat off of it!

I saw this very thing in a late night movie last night MS!

[MorningStar]

My brain is so clean, you could eat off of it!

I saw this very thing in a late night movie last night MS!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!

[Abulafia]

Wow, some varied responses...

Adam, and CI, very blunt!!!!

Okay, I'll stand by my points though.

Adam you took only one defintion of brainwashing that suited your argument

Here's another....

It is often more helpful to analyze 'brainwashing' as a combination of persuasion and attitude change, propaganda, coercion, and restriction of access to information. Note that many of these techniques are more subtly used (usually unconsciously) by advertisers, governments, schools, parents and peers, so the aura of exoticism around 'brainwashing' is undeserved.

It is more this definition that I was thinking of, and I attempted to define it in my original post.

You have to remember also, that I clearly indicated that it was my perception of my time in the church, looking back retrospectively. It may not, indeed be other people's perception, but trust me when I said it was mine, whether you understand it as inane and silly or not!!!

I think only someone who has come out of the LDS church, and I have been out for a while, would understand the deep psychological hold that the church had on them, I have tried to analyse this, and wonder how and when it happened.

CI, I am trying to understand you, I would ask respectfully that you try at least to understand my reasoning even if you cannot see sense in it???

[Zakuska]

Katherine:

We don't stick their heads in the toilet or tie them up if they resist.

We don't?

Oh. Um.... Oops.

I needed that laugh! Thanks.

Resitance is futile!

We alter their DNA so they can grow horns.

[Zakuska]

My brain is so clean, you could eat off of it!

I saw this very thing in a late night movie last night MS!

Hanibal lector?

[Abulafia]

ii) In order to be socially accepted I had to learn quickly to fit in. A big part of fitting in, meant that I needed a testimony of the church, to follow the rules of the church, and to learn the social mores specific to LDS culture.

Cultural norms are everywhere. Just because you chose to conform to social pressure doesn't mean you where brainwashed. It means you didn't have a backbone of your own.

You know, I am going to have to agree with you on that one. As a young kid, who wanted to follow Jesus (that was the basis of my faith as a 14 year old, when I returned to full activity in the church), and to not go down the path that all my friends were going down, I chose to go to the LDS church, I think because my parents had been baptised in it when I was 8. I don't know that I ever really had a testimony of it, but liked the clean living way of life. For me my backbone came when I decided that the LDS church in many ways didn't represent what I felt christianity was all about and so I left. I was finally, as I matured, being true to myself.

[koakaipo]

now, Abu, I hear you on the powerful psychological hold part of being Mormon. For me being Mormon and growing up Mormon isn't like how others may relate to religion. It's like an ethnicity really for me! My Latina RC best friend growing up and I totally related, because our religion was so encompassing, whereas our other friends didn't have that same experience with their religion.

I do think though that some of the qualities and characteristics you are identifying with Mormonism is more about it's stage of development as an organization than Mormonism itself though. I think Mormonism is simply in the "good news" stage of development-it ain't really focusing on self introspection because it's still too early in the game to be doing such things-the focus is growing and sustaining itself. It's very much like our life phases, where our youthful stage isn't about self introspection-it's about being pretty cocksure enough to take anything on. Our middle years are where we stop long enough to take some self inventory really.

I think alot of what the "cult" and the "brainwashing" references talk to is mainly how younger, less established movement work while in this fledgling stage. We can look at America and see it's still in a pretty youthful stage-we seem so cocksure to other countries. I hear non-American friends talk of how we are brainwashed by the media and the cult of personality over here. In some ways, outsiders looking in at America may say we are still in the "good news" stages as well.

[thesometimesaint]

Abulafia:

Bat squeeze.

"It is often more helpful to analyze 'brainwashing' as a combination of persuasion and attitude change, propaganda, coercion, and restriction of access to information. Note that many of these techniques are more subtly used (usually unconsciously) by advertisers, governments, schools, parents and peers, so the aura of exoticism around 'brainwashing' is undeserved."

One. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does not engage in coercion.

Two. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does not engage in restriction of access to information.

Three. That definition is so nebulas that is can be rationized into ANYTHING.

[TOmNossor]

now, Abu, I hear you on the powerful psychological hold part of being Mormon. For me being Mormon and growing up Mormon isn't like how others may relate to religion. It's like an ethnicity really for me! My Latina RC best friend growing up and I totally related, because our religion was so encompassing, whereas our other friends didn't have that same experience with their religion.

I do think though that some of the qualities and characteristics you are identifying with Mormonism is more about it's stage of development as an organization than Mormonism itself though. I think Mormonism is simply in the "good news" stage of development-it ain't really focusing on self introspection because it's still too early in the game to be doing such things-the focus is growing and sustaining itself. It's very much like our life phases, where our youthful stage isn't about self introspection-it's about being pretty cocksure enough to take anything on. Our middle years are where we stop long enough to take some self inventory really.

I think alot of what the "cult" and the "brainwashing" references talk to is mainly how younger, less established movement work while in this fledgling stage. We can look at America and see it's still in a pretty youthful stage-we seem so cocksure to other countries. I hear non-American friends talk of how we are brainwashed by the media and the cult of personality over here. In some ways, outsiders looking in at America may say we are still in the "good news" stages as well.

Koakaipo,

If you think like this you may be a Stage Theorist. I am unconvinced that I am a stage theorist, but I have discovered that those things I can

[Pahoran]

Sorry Abu, but you've just shot yourself in the foot with this one. "Cult" and "brainwashing" are meaningless buzz-words, slogans designed to shock people, thought-terminating cliches. They define nothing, they inform nobody, and the only thing they disclose is the speaker's inability to formulate a cogent thought.

Regards,

Pahoran

[koakaipo]

HI Tom-I haven't read the recommendation you offered, but did read another similar in regards to organizational development and religion that Fowler edited. Can't remember the title exactly. I don't think I buy it full line and sinker personally-a little too neatly packaged maybe for me. So, I hear you on that count.

But I do think some notions regarding organizational development do apply in particular to early and fledgling movements. I found alot of the things I learned from organizational development helpful really in terms of understanding ethnic and immigrant studies better. And actually, understanding some characteristics that I do find interesting about Mormonism as well. I do think we are very funny little creatures when put into social groups, especially when the larger social group seems a little threatening and foreign. What I do like as well is this notion that sorta breaks the myth about individuality as well and how social dynamics come into play. I think Armand L. Mauss The Angel and the Beehive is a great work in terms of looking at this sort of push-and pull relationship between the church and the larger culture. Very interesting stuff, I'm just a novice really, but enjoy it nonetheless. People are just funny,myself included.

[urroner]

Allegations of brainwashing within religious "cults"

Beliefs promoted by the Anti-cult Movement:

Many individuals in the Anti-cult Movement (ACM) have attempted to raise public consciousness about what they perceive to be a major public threat, mainly to youth and young adults. They believe that many NRMs are profoundly evil....

...ACM beliefs are also reinforced some feminists, conservative Christians and others who still believe in the widespread existence of Satanic Ritual Abuse (SRA). SRA promoters claim  that secret, underground Satanic cults exit on a local, state, national and international level. The anti-SRA movement teaches that Satanists ritually kill tens of thousands of infants every year in the U.S. Other infants and children believed to be programmed to respond as robots without any degree of self-will. Their victims can allegedly be triggered at a later date by sounds, words, images, colors etc. to mindlessly perform pre-arranged acts in support of the Satanic cult. By the mid-1990s, investigators had not been able to uncover hard evidence proving the existence of SRA even after a decade and a half of study. Belief in SRA has now largely collapsed.

Some parents of adult children who have joined NRMs take comfort in ACM theories because they absolves the parents from any feelings of personal guilt. They can blame the NRM and its leaders for engaging in criminal acts and capturing their children.

Belief in mind-control by NRMs is essential to the continued existence of the ACM groups. Otherwise, they have no legal or moral reason to continue their deprogramming and exit counseling programs. Without  those programs, their main source of financial support would disappear(Bolding is mine)....

...Bob and Gretchen Passantino of the conservative Christian group "Answers in Action" have analyzed the ACM belief systems about NRM brainwashing and have found them lacking in credibility: 2

bullet Brainwashing experiments have all been unsuccessful. The CIA used drugs and electroshock during their investigations into mind-control. "Their experiments were failures; they failed to produce even one potential Manchurian Candidate, and the program was finally abandoned." The brainwashing attempts by Communist military organizations during the Korean war also failed. They were forced to use torture to supplement their mind-control techniques and were able to obtain success in only a few cases. However, ACM promoters appear to believe that modern forms of mind-control within religious organizations represent a major advance over earlier primitive brainwashing techniques. The Passantinos question how relatively uneducated NRM leaders could succeed when highly trained experts had earlier failed.

bullet They wonder how NRMs can brainwash recruits in a week, while professionals failed after years of indoctrination. They quote the writings of  sociologists Bromley and Shupe 3 which point out how absurd this idea is: "...the brainwashing notion implied that somehow these diverse and unconnected [religious] movements had simultaneously discovered and implemented highly intrusive behavioral modification techniques. Such serendipity and coordination was implausible given the diverse backgrounds of the groups at issue. Furthermore, the inability of highly trained professionals responsible for implementing a variety of modalities for effecting individual change, ranging from therapy to incarceration, belie claims that such rapid transformation can routinely be accomplished by neophytes against an individual's will."

bullet The ACM movement has collected some information to support its belief that religious groups successfully employ mind-control techniques. But the data is unreliable. The information typically represents a very small sample size. It is not practical to obtain information before, during and after an individual has been in a NRM. Often, their data is disproportionately obtained from former members of a religious organization who have been convinced during ACM counseling that they have been victims of mind-control.

bullet One good indicator of the non-existence of mind-control techniques is the ineffectiveness of NRM recruitment programs. "Eileen Barker documents that out of 1000 people persuaded by the Moonies [unification Church] to attend one of their overnight programs in 1979, 90% had no further involvement. Only 8% joined for more than one week..." 4

bullet Another indicator of the non-existence of mind control is the high turnover rate of members. Eileen Barker mentions that there is a 50% attrition rate during the members' first two years. 4

bullet The opinions of former NRM members who have left on their own are clear. Barker comments: "...those who leave voluntarily are extremely unlikely to believe that they were ever the victims of mind control."

The Passantinos conclude: "...the Bogey Man of cult mind control is nothing but a ghost story, good for inducing an adrenaline high and maintaining a crusade, but irrelevant to reality."

Well, so much for the boogeyman of the ACMers. But it's like the following quote from the same site says, it ain't going to do no good to show any evidence to the ACMers that they are running down the wrong path, they will just ignore the evidence and trudge blissfully on in great ignorance as they try to physcially or mentally force their belief system onto others:

Analysis by the Association of World Academics for Religious Education

    The new Cult Awareness Network quotes "AWARE" as stating:

   

[Zakuska]

I have own word for "cult"...

AmWay

[Proverbs]

I wish someone would of kidnapped me and try to deprogram me so I could file a fat law suit. LOL.

Peace,

Adam

[Dunamis]

If you cannot discuss a religion without first applying a derogatory label to it this is not the place for you. Abulafia, consider yourself warned.

[Abulafia]

If you cannot discuss a religion without first applying a derogatory label to it this is not the place for you. Abulafia, consider yourself warned.

I stand suitably warned Dunamis!!! I take the point about the labels being value laden towards the negative, though I tried everso hard to define terms beforehand, so as not to make them offensive. I guess I failed!!!!

Could you suggest a better definition, particularly for 'brainwashing'???

Abulafia

[Avatar4321]

2) Brainwashing

Again, I am using this term in a more subtle sense rather than the meaning associated with torture.

If you had asked me if I was brainwashed when I first left the LDS faith, I would have strongly argued against. Today, I feel that I was subtly brainwashed. I would argue that the following three pointers would indicate the same.

i) The information available to me (at the time - in the 70's - pre internet - outside Utah!!!) was controlled, and I was strongly discouraged from reading any non-mormon literature on the subject of the church. My mother was told not to read any books not written by a mormon, ridiculous, but that is another story.

ii) In order to be socially accepted I had to learn quickly to fit in. A big part of fitting in, meant that I needed a testimony of the church, to follow the rules of the church, and to learn the social mores specific to LDS culture.

iii) Leaders use a subtle combination of modern leaders and scriptoral evidence to encourage a system that is fear/reward based.

If you agree/disagree with 1) Could you say why.

If you agree/disagree with 2) Could you say why.

I realise that my perceptions may be entirely different to others, and I am happy to have my points refuted.

I don't really care about the cult comment.

But I just have one comment for the Brainwashing. What the heck are you talking about?

[Avatar4321]

I was finally, as I matured, being true to myself.

Yeah, we all reach the point where we have to be true to ourself.

Too bad more of us don't worry about being true to God instead.

[AndyOne]

While I would call it indoctrinated, I absolutely feel like I was "brainwashed" on some level into believing in the church. I think it's inevitable in the case of any ideology into which one is raised. What I find so remarkable about the church is that, in my late teens when I stepped away from it and "deprogrammed" myself somewhat, I came to agree with the substance of the brainwashing. In other words, I'm happy it happened; I am better for it. What kills the claim of real brainwashing, however, is the fact (as evidenced, in part, by the many disaffected members here) that so many walk away from the church. The ability to choose to disbelieve kind of undoes the whole "brainwashing cult" thing. Add to that the difficulty in getting people (like my lazy behind still delinquent on submitting mission papers) to fully engage themselves in the work of the church. It's a nice little dismissive tactic to call us a brainwashed cult, but I don't think the facts add up that way.

[Dale]

I am ex-LDS & I never felt brainwashed. I spent years reading critics of Mormonism & decided I could retain my belief in the Book of Mormon. I am Community of Christ now. I seriously pondered becoming an Evangelical after being regularly inactive for years. I conside myself pretty well exposed to everything from the New Mormon history to the liberal verses conservative Book of Mormon debates.

I know of no fundemental church where you will be exposed to issues that contradict your churches story whether it be Catholic, or protestant.

The LDS Church buildings are of course not like this message board where we can discuss anything as long as we follow board rules. They do want you to teach & discuss official LDS doctrine in classes. What they expose you to is popular official teachings & issues not what you will get here.

[1dc]

. . .

2) Brainwashing

Again, I am using this term in a more subtle sense rather than the meaning associated with torture.

. . .

Brainwashing defined:

"1. Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person's basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs.

2. The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation. "

http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/b/b0450100.html

Let's assume you are suggesting the 2nd definition is what you intended. How does that not apply to most of the world in an information society if they hold and teach their own honest opinion? How did that not apply to many if not most Americans parents (since landing here) who raised children with a Bible and few other books in the home?

In any case, 2 basic tenets of the LDS faith learned (by sincere neighbors, investigators, new members and children alike) are:

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul

[1dc]

Could you suggest a better definition, particularly for 'brainwashing'???

Persuasion to do good?

[Abulafia]

Could you suggest a better definition, particularly for 'brainwashing'???

Persuasion to do good?

Okay...

I have tried to think of better ways to put what I feel I experienced during my activity in the church.

One has to remember that we all come from different backgrounds, upbringings, lifestyles. I think each of us has our own take on why we do the things we do, and believe the things we believe.

I think I have said somewhere else, that the LDS faith can and does make bad people good, and good people better. I appreciate that, and I would be terribly saddened if I were to ever see it 'sink'. I don't wish to knock anyone's faith,and I apologise if that is the way it came across.

What I have tried to be is honest with others about my motives and intentions in being here.

I left the church about the age of 30, but I often wonder why it actually took me so long to leave. I became active I think for the right reasons, I believed in God and Jesus, and wanted them as role models for my life. As the years roled by I came to believe in the version of the churches truth that I was given. Though there were always aspects (certainly not all) of the churches culture and doctrine that did not sit right with me. Of course I wanted to do and be good, but the church (if that is it's only function) does not have exclusive rights to encouraging people to be good.

With regard to subtle psychological control. I believe it was a very real force that held me tightly so that I stayed active perhaps for far too long, when really I should have left.

Control of Information

As a missionary, I know that the lessons I taught were very stricty controlled. I know some would argue that this is a meat before milk issue, but I would argue that a person has a right to hear all sides of the equation before making such a great and far reaching decision in their life. If it were as simple as following Jesus, I can assure you I, for one, would still be there at church every Sunday and bringing my children up in the LDS faith.

I was very careful to state that pre-internet, and living out in the 'mission field' the information that I was able to read up on the church was limited to church books, or literature written by non-mormons whose word I tended not to trust. This was my experience and a fact of life for me, and all my family. This may not have been true for those living in Utah, or the surrounding areas, I do appreciate this, but it was certainly true for me.

Social Pressure and Conformity Issues

I do agree that my time in the church gave me much that was positive in this regard. I chose to be around people that endeavoured to keep the same standards that I did. Morally and ethically. However, the downside of this, is that in order to keep the good, I also had to embrace the more questionable aspects of LDS doctrine and canon. I remember trying to be very honest with a friend in the church, and I told them that I really wasn't so sure that Joseph Smith was all that he was held up to be in the church. I was told in no uncertain terms that this thinking was of the devil.

Fear/Reward

Again, I was pleased to hear from people like Tom, who have been able to rise above this level of thinking. I never was able to do that. The fear/reward aspect of the doctrine of the church was so all encompassing that I found that I could never get above it. It was like forever being on the first rung of a ladder, and never being able to get off it.

The fear issue was also I would argue, in the final 3 years of my activity, the one that kept me in over all else. This was very real and very damaging in my opinion. But indicates the hold that my perceptions of the LDS faith had on me at the time.

Hope this clarifies my position in a less offensive manner!

[Guest KW Graham]

I didn't grow up LDS, but I can see how some who have, considered themselves "heavily influenced" to the point that a psychologist might consider it mild brainwashing.

For instance, the testimonies of some of the children strike me as way too programmed. I'm sorry, but when I bring a visitor to Church I feel embarassed when they have this bored look on their faces as their eyes are rolling up in the corners as they try to listen to what their Mom or Dad is whispering into their ears (i.e. I know the Church is true, I know Joseph Smith was a prophet, I know [name current President] is a prophet, I know the Book of Mormon is true, in the name of Jesus Christ Amen).

Also, Mormon kids are typically raised to ignore anything critical someone says about the Church. They are not encouraged to engage in independent study. They are told that it is "anti-Mormon" and that means it is evil. Period.

I remember when I was investigating the church, I was presented anti-Mormon transcripts - by my Grandma! - from the Ankerberg show. It claimed to be a debate between him and an LDS bishop. Anyway, I remember bringing the transcript to the Mormon kids who introduced me to the Church. I just wanted to ask them some basic questions (becoming gods etc). But once they read the first sentence, they got stressed out and they said, "Kevin this is anti-Mormon literature!" The girl started crying. They completely shut down as if to think all hope was lost for me. They told me it was evil, of the devil, God testing me, etc. They never did read one entire paragraph. It was if they already conceded the point that they couldn't reconcile anything for me. And how could they? They were just 15-16 year old kids. I remember when I was interviewed for the M. Priesthood I was asked if I had been affiliating myself with anyone critical of the Church.

A few years later, while on my mission (a year after I was baptized) I was amazed how many of my companions were unaware of some of the basic criticisms against the Church. Most were from Utah, so that gave me a feel for the kind of claims and material they were permitted to investigate growing up. Their attitude towards anti-Mormon lit was similar to that of my Mormon friends back home. They were not supposed tor ead anti-Mormon books; they were supposed to read books about anti-Mormon books. Don't read the God Makers. Read Truth

[Abulafia]

I think the pivotal time for me, came at university. My college lecturers knew I was mormon, and respected me for it, though they would always say, (I majored in History) just use the tools you have learned here to examine all aspects of your life and faith. Read around the issues, read a variety of opinions and perspectives, gather as much information as you can, and then make up your own mind...

This is what I did.

Actually, I remember telling one friend that Joseph Smith was a freemason. His response was that freemasonry was evil, and there was no way Joseph would ever have been one. (My BIL is a mason, and they are not evil!!!) But I did find among the youth that I grew up with, particularly those raised in the church, that there was strong 'persuasion' put on them by their parents to not read any literature critical of the church, since this was of the devil. (I am sure not all parents were like that, just most of the ones I knew).

Abulafia