The Church is a Cult

[Abulafia]

If Abulafia couldn't hack the gospel, that is her decision, and hers only. Don't blame the Church and its standard practices (which, btw, are used in most other christian churches also), for your failure to abide by its precepts.

Abulafia's leaving the Church is prime example that it isn't brainwashing. Does it force us to make a tough decision? Of course. But brainwashing doesn't leave the person with a choice. If Abulafia struggled with the Church, it is because the Church's teachings are simply taught, and Abulafia's lifestyle and choices are not compatible. Of course she's felt guilt, as conflict always causes problems.

Now, now Rameumpton. You are making an awful lot of assumptions here, most of which are wrong.

Look, my lifestyle is really no different. Not in any meaningful way. What parts of the gospel specifically do you think I cannot hack!!!!

It is my belief that changed, not my ethical values, they have remained pretty much the same!!!!

Abulafia

[starhy]

Docrick-

Wait.... wasn't it Satan's plan to make you do everything a certain way in the "war in heaven"? Not saying that the church is under satans influence (I don't believe in Satan), but I do think the church- as well as much of the world- is under the influence of the "ego".

Mind control in your definition "Don't touch that it's hot..." is very different than teaching aversions or programming guilt and fear. If a child touches it after you said it was hot- they learn by experience... right? If a child is told all his life that he won't be with his/her family after they die unless they did a bunch of things in order to be sealed in the temple... well, that's a whole different ball game. That programs a fear in a child that the threat of death and not being with their family is a scary thing. They must pay 10% of their money to the church, obey the word of wisdom etc. etc. in order to be worthy enough to enter the temple and learn all of the sacred things that will make that happen for them. No one has really "learned by experience" that those things are really true. Sure those of you who believe have "faith", but what is faith really? It is a belief that can't be proven.

[docrick]

Docrick-

Wait.... wasn't it Satan's plan to make you do everything a certain way in the "war in heaven"? Not saying that the church is under satans influence (I don't believe in Satan), but I do think the church- as well as much of the world- is under the influence of the "ego".

Mind control in your definition "Don't touch that it's hot..." is very different than teaching aversions or programming guilt and fear. If a child touches it after you said it was hot- they learn by experience... right? If a child is told all his life that he won't be with his/her family after they die unless they did a bunch of things in order to be sealed in the temple... well, that's a whole different ball game. That programs a fear in a child that the threat of death and not being with their family is a scary thing. They must pay 10% of their money to the church, obey the word of wisdom etc. etc. in order to be worthy enough to enter the temple and learn all of the sacred things that will make that happen for them. No one has really "learned by experience" that those things are really true. Sure those of you who believe have "faith", but what is faith really? It is a belief that can't be proven.

You presume that my knowlege that if you don't receive baptism, marry in the Temple etc. is less tangible and true than if you touch fire you will be burned.

I know both to be true.

It is my responsibility and stewardship as a parent to "train up a child when they are young, and teach the gospel of repentance".

I teach this because the consequence of shunning the tenets of the Lord's Church have eternal consequences. A burn heals quite fast by comparison it is not eternal.

So much more we teach what the Lord commands.

As for me and my house we will serve the Lord; you are free to serve whatever you want it is your God given right.

[rameumptom]

If Abulafia couldn't hack the gospel, that is her decision, and hers only.  Don't blame the Church and its standard practices (which, btw, are used in most other christian churches also), for your failure to abide by its precepts.

Abulafia's leaving the Church is prime example that it isn't brainwashing.  Does it force us to make a tough decision? Of course.  But brainwashing doesn't leave the person with a choice.  If Abulafia struggled with the Church, it is because the Church's teachings are simply taught, and Abulafia's lifestyle and choices are not compatible.  Of course she's felt guilt, as conflict always causes problems.

Now, now Rameumpton. You are making an awful lot of assumptions here, most of which are wrong.

Look, my lifestyle is really no different. Not in any meaningful way. What parts of the gospel specifically do you think I cannot hack!!!!

It is my belief that changed, not my ethical values, they have remained pretty much the same!!!!

Abulafia

Did I ever mention any sins? No. I said there were things you couldn't hack or believe. A lifestyle in LDS terms means accepting not only a Christian lifestyle, but a Mormon lifestyle: temple attendance, missionary work, sustaining of the Brethren, believing in the Restoration, etc.

There were belief issues you didn't/couldn't/wouldn't accept. Perhaps the guilt associated with HOW one is taught the gospel can make one feel guiltier than they should. Stephen Robinson talks about the guilty feelings his wife had in trying to save herself from within her Mormon salvation view (not the one taught in the scriptures, mind you). Many LDS have this wrong notion of what it takes to be saved/exalted. And many of them go on a guilt trip over every little thing they miss.

That is not the true gospel. You are responsible for seeking out the truth for you. You chose to disbelieve many of the key things your family taught you. Obviously, no one brain washed you, as it didn't take a special outreach program to deprogramme you. Or did it?

[starhy]

Docrick,

I acknowledge the Lord (meaning Jesus) as well, and God (which we are all a part of) is very much pleased.

No, I don't believe you can "know" those things are true. I believe you think you know because it gives you warm fuzzies.... which is fine. It serves you. It's not true for everyone. I'm sorry, but THAT is the truth.

I don't think you are "wrong" about your path. I think you are on the path that serves you at this point in your spirituality. I'm not trying to change your mind about the religion you belong to. I am only stating my observations and beliefs. I know you think I am the wrong one...which is also fine. I know I am on the right path for myself and I see things from a completely different perspective than you do.

To each his own I guess.

[Stormin' Mormon]

No, I don't believe you can "know" those things are true. I believe you think you know because it gives you warm fuzzies.... which is fine. It serves you. It's not true for everyone. I'm sorry, but THAT is the truth.

I don't think you are "wrong" about your path. I think you are on the path that serves you at this point in your spirituality. I'm not trying to change your mind about the religion you belong to. I am only stating my observations and beliefs. I know you think I am the wrong one...which is also fine. I know I am on the right path for myself and I see things from a completely different perspective than you do.

To each his own I guess.

Don't you find it the tiniest bit ironic that you are being so uncompromisingly dogmatic about your relativistic view-point? In one breath, you state that Truth is not the same for everyone, and in the next you state that your psuedo-definitoin of truth is the true one. Thanks for the laugh.

[starhy]

Stormin mormon...Have you heard of the term dichotomy? Look it up.

[Stormin' Mormon]

Stormin mormon...Have you heard of the term dichotomy? Look it up.

I understand quite well the meaning of dichotomy. Are you thus admitting that your beliefs are dichotomous, that they can be divided "into two mutually exclusive, opposed, or contradictory groups?" Your beliefs are quite dichotomous. In one breath you claim truth is subjective, relative to the believer, that a truth that works for one person may not work for another. And then in the very next breath, you claim that this viewpoint is The Truth, the final word, and objectively real to everybody. What makes your Truth so special? Why do you give your Truth such special dispensation? What does my Truth have to do to be as objetive and free from bias as yours?

[1dc]

Fear and guilt are of the ego. Being "programmed" or "psychologically controlled" and saying that it's GODS plan goes against the term "free will". We all have the ability to choose that which serves us and that which doesn't. It's not going to be the SAME THING for every person. If someone finds growth at the level of mormonism--- great. I'm not discounting it completely, but I do see problems when people are controlled by fear, because fear is not of God.

God's plan is for us to benefit from his infinate knowledge and follow His commandments. Man's negative reaction from his pride is what comes from not being obedient, even as a child does so out of love and respect for the knowledge of his/her parent.

[Abulafia]

If Abulafia couldn't hack the gospel, that is her decision, and hers only.

[1dc]

. . .what I feared was the consequence of questioning my own belief system. . . .

Makes perfect sense to me . . you've just provided what I see as the best evidence against your argument of brainwashing.

Every time I test my belief system I come back with stronger faith. The more I read scriptures, the more service I provide, the more I give, the more I love others . . . the more comfort I receive. And I'd bet it's a formula that works with nearly every system of moral/religious law known to mankind.

Which leads me to wonder how if the BoM leads me to believe in and love Christ more, how is it others can find that it is not of God? [Disclaimer: not an attempt at brainwashing. ]

[Abulafia]

. . .what I feared was the consequence of questioning my own belief system. . . .

Makes perfect sense to me . . you've just provided what I see as the best evidence against your argument of brainwashing.

Every time I test my belief system I come back with stronger faith. The more I read scriptures, the more service I provide, the more I give, the more I love others . . . the more comfort I receive. And I'd bet it's a formula that works with nearly every system of moral/religious law known to mankind.

Which leads me to wonder how if the BoM leads me to believe in and love Christ more, how is it others can find that it is not of God? [Disclaimer: not an attempt at brainwashing. ]

1dc,

I'll still maintain that I was subtly psychologically controlled by a belief system that says that if you leave once you have joined you are going straight to outer-darkness!!!

I can google (again) and quote you a few past talks and speeches that suggest the same!!!

Even Jesus is quoted as saying

Luke 9:62

And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

I clearly remember the story of Lot's wife as someone who looked back!!!

What I came to realise was that, again, following Jesus, and staying active in the church are not necessarily one and the same thing. They may be for you....and others....but not for me. I didn't stop having a desire to follow good ethics and the main principles Jesus taught of loving one another, once I had left.

Abulafia