The Church is a Cult

[Nephi]

Oh no. You are very correct. I have tried a number of organised christian religions since leaving the LDS church. I find much to disagree with in all of them..

Fussy bod that I am...

What to do..... and I do miss the spiritual/social connection I had with my many LDS friends. Not a good enough reason to stay though.

I do love my family, my job(s), my friends, and I do make very strong connections with people outside of religion. I just can't find an organised religion that I feel comfortable in... that fits all my own personal beliefs.

I find that one can find God anywhere, so long as they are willing to look and listen. In my hippie days, I listened to a band called Phish. Phish has this song called "The Lizards" which is a song from a huge Myth that the lead singer wrote as his senior thesis in college. The basic story of the myth is as follows:

A guy falls down a hole and is sucked into this alternate reality. He finds out that there was this race of people there, named The Lizards. The Lizards were a happy peaceful people, who worshiped a God/Prophet named Icculus. Icculus millions of years before had communed with God and God gave them the word. The word was contained in a book called "The Helping Friendly Book".

Long story short, in the song titled "The Lizards", there is a lyric that goes as such:

"the Helping Friendly Book (it seemed),

possed the ancient secrets of

'ever joy and never ending splendor

the trick was to surrender to the flow"

When I first heard this song, it never struck me what it was telling me, but in essence, it telling one that to truly experience ANYTHING, one must surrender to the flow. Only then can they truly understand what the thing means.

Example: We can all read all we want about heroin addicts, but if you want to really know what addiction feels like, or is, you have to become a user. No two ways about that.

In this discussion here, if you really want to experience that deep meaning in society, you have to surrender to the flow. Otherwise, you will never know.

[Avatar4321]

Control of Information

You seem to be justifying the churches practice of controlling information, by saying that everyone does it. (though I am sure that many on here would argue that the church does not control information) I suppose one could argue that God controls information too, since clearly we have no memory of where we came from, and no clear view of what happens after death.

I would ask however to what extent is the control of information around the church ethical?

Perhaps you should start with providing evidence that the Church is trying to control any information? What do you mean by controlling information? I suppose if you simply mean publishing information then yeah the Church is controling information everytime it publishes something. So is any publishing company.

I think your main problem is you are trying to prove things based on assumptions you havent authenticated.

[1dc]

If I like something,  I am being educated.  If I don't like it and want to poison the well,  I am being brainwashed.  It isn't very complicated.  We brainwash our kids everyday.  If we didn't we would be hauled in for neglect or endangerment.  This is an incredibly stupid accusation. 

Hi Juliann, okay, I tried to steer off the term 'brainwashing' since it seemed too value laden, and onto 'subtle psychological control'.

Juliann, I am not talking about what we all do as parents everyday in terms of attempting to socialise our children, and encourage polite, loving, caring behaviour.

I am talking of matters of conscience, in terms of answers to the basic questions that most of us (if we have our primary needs met) ask. Where did I come from?

Why am I here? What is the purpose of this life? What happens when I die?

Are you so willing to be open that you constantly instruct your child in all of the world's religions and philosophy equally, including paganism, atheism and devil worship? Do you have a truly broad plan of teaching which began at birth and do you allow society to freely introduce such ideas to your children whenever society might choose to do so?

You almost sound indifferent to which choice your child may take. It seems like you do not have a formed opinion on your family's eternal welfare that is at least as important as their physical well being.

I've read a lot of complaints but not much in the way of a formed and improved ideology on what is the right way to teach someone to feel, call, and cherish the Spirit of God . . and more importantly how to keep that Spirit as a constant companion while others may introduce truly negative influences relative to that Spirit (mind you I didn't say facts which may challenge and require faith).

So please, share with us a brighter light and the richer warmth of the Spirit of Truth.

[Abulafia]

If I like something,

[Abulafia]

Control of Information

You seem to be justifying the churches practice of controlling information, by saying that everyone does it. (though I am sure that many on here would argue that the church does not control information)  I suppose one could argue that God controls information too, since clearly we have no memory of where we came from, and no clear view of what happens after death.

I would ask however to what extent is the control of information around the church ethical?

Perhaps you should start with providing evidence that the Church is trying to control any information? What do you mean by controlling information? I suppose if you simply mean publishing information then yeah the Church is controling information everytime it publishes something. So is any publishing company.

I think your main problem is you are trying to prove things based on assumptions you havent authenticated.

Hi Avatar4321,

Look, I am looking back retrospectively at my time in the church, and telling you in all honesty my experience.

As a young teenager I was probably influenced a great deal by those around me, my parents were not active members. In all honesty, I probably got told a lot of hogwash by people that I looked up to. But it was common enough hogwash that I wasn't the only one who was influenced by it.

There are enough people on this board who make a vocation out of ensuring they know what's out there. I suppose you would call them the apologists.

I say, about time. Unadulterated truth, will stand whether you and I believe it or not.

What I am telling you, is my experience in the church, both as a missionary, and as a young person growing up in it, pre-internet, outside Utah. It was my experience and I own it as such. Whether you choose to believe it is your choice. You will have your own views based on your own experience. I do understand this.

[Nephi]

[Perhaps you should start with providing evidence that the Church is trying to control any information? What do you mean by controlling information?

I am a proud member of the church, but one must understand that ANY organization controls information, whether dilberately, or accidentally due to biasness. That's a fact of life.

[thesometimesaint]

Abulafia:

I am a convert. Should I throw out what I have learned in the last 40 years and go back to what I believed as a 14 year old?

[Abulafia]

Abulafia:

I am a convert. Should I throw out what I have learned in the last 40 years and go back to what I believed as a 14 year old?

Absolutely not Sometimes Saint. If the church has helped you to become a more loving, person, full of humility and without guile (and I note that there are people both active and non-active on this board who indeed are like that) then I think you should stay exactly where you are. That is your path and your journey.

Do you believe that my core beliefs are wrong?

That is a core belief in a God who loves, and is love. A belief that Jesus is the best role model that we have, and a belief in the capacity in all of us to progress eternally, to constantly try and evaluate and improve ourselves in conjunction with loving principles.

Abulafia

[Nephi]

Do you believe that my core beliefs are wrong?

Nobody is saying this, however, I do question your reasons for coming onto this board. If you believe that its okay to be a member of the church if the church does you good, and you feel that its your place to be, then why do you come here claiming that "the church is a cult", or other opinions that you have? Are you looking for others to justify your beliefs?

[Abulafia]

Do you believe that my core beliefs are wrong?

Nobody is saying this, however, I do question your reasons for coming onto this board. If you believe that its okay to be a member of the church if the church does you good, and you feel that its your place to be, then why do you come here claiming that "the church is a cult", or other opinions that you have? Are you looking for others to justify your beliefs?

Nephi. Look at my initial post. I defined my terms, or tried to very carefully.

When I was an active member and other groups would call us a cult, I would proudly say...yes...and we are in good company, because early christianity was considered a cult also...

If members of other churches called me to task for the churches practice of polygamy, I would direct them straight to the OT.

I spent many years defending my beliefs as an active member.

Nephi I know why I have come to this board, and I think I have explained it in other threads as best I can. Why do you think I have come to this board?

Abulafia

[Jigglysaint]

Abulafia:

I am a convert. Should I throw out what I have learned in the last 40 years and go back to what I believed as a 14 year old?

Of course not. For one thing, I bet you've learned and experenced many things that Abulafia never did. Seriously, if you can become a Latter-day Saint, and deconvert and be as you were when you were 14, you just wasted your time! Then again, I can see then why so many people do feel bitter. You can't get those years back, and what exactly did you learn from them besides that "mormonism" isn't true?

I am a convert of 4 years, and what I've learned during that time is more knowlege than I have learned in all the previous years. Then again, I am open and receptive. I don't condemn ideas and theology just because it sounds weird. I am not merely a parrot. I understand things that no ordinary person does. I've actually answered questions that perhaps even a temple goer may not understand. The Lord has provided me with exceptional insight, perhaps even close to that of the prophet Joseph Smith. Maybe that's one of the reasons I respect him, because both of us just love learning all the mysteries and secrets of the Kingdom of God.

Oh, and to accoplish this, you do kind of have to swim upstream a little. Believe it or not that when I first joined, I was nervious about the conformity issue. Well I did what I had to do to conform, but I am still rather different and weird than the others.

Remember, I believe on my own accord. What I don't understand, I put it on my "spiritual credit card", and pay it off later when I've learned more. Thankfully, I've yet to go into debt, although I am always in debt to Jesus Christ for what He did for me.

[juliann]

Juliann, I am not talking about what we all do as parents everyday in terms of attempting to socialise our children, and encourage polite, loving, caring behaviour.

That is but a small part of how our children are brainwashed...and actually the last that I would think of.

I am talking of matters of conscience, in terms of answers to the basic questions that most of us (if we have our primary needs met) ask.  Where did I come from?

Why am I here? What is the purpose of this life?  What happens when I die?

What makes this any different than any other kind of brainwashing? The brainwashing starts as infants when we direct them which words they are to use and make sure that all other sounds are eliminated. Language dictates our thoughts...thoughts do not dictate our language. Then we put them in these schools where they have to dress a certain way, be toilet trained by often barbaric methods and learn exactly the same things that every other kid in that school learns. If they don't, we have special places to put them. Then the parents complete the process when the kid gets home. This goes on for at least 18 years.

It is these questions that my child has already asked.  I tell him what I believe, I tell him what his father believes, but he must make up his own mind, based on his own study.

Like you let him make up his own mind whether he does his homework which contains all of the regimented brainwashing information? I tried that approach with my daughter. I decided that I would let her "decide" whether to play the flute. Gosh, she is 18 and hasn't "decided". Of course, she was never given the background, knowledge and the window of opportunity has passed by...but what the hey...she decided on her own! The ultimate goal of all responsible parents! If I say that my kid has made her own decisions as she lives her adult life under the poverty level because she decided as an 8 year old to stop going to school...I've succeeded!

He was discussing the information paradox with regard to black holes today.

*gasp*! You let him get near that information and be....brainwashed? Or are you claiming that he came up witih it by himself as he sat in that sensory room with no contact to the outside world so he could make his own decisions?

[juliann]

I spent many years defending my beliefs as an active member.

That was your first mistake. You should have spent many years defending your right to believe. Anything. It is a necessary skill in a world where there are sooooo many people who think they should be able to evaluate your beliefs and tell you how worthy you are.

[Abulafia]

Of course not. For one thing, I bet you've learned and experenced many things that Abulafia never did. Seriously, if you can become a Latter-day Saint, and deconvert and be as you were when you were 14, you just wasted your time! Then again, I can see then why so many people do feel bitter. You can't get those years back, and what exactly did you learn from them besides that "mormonism" isn't true?

Jiggly saint!!! The only thing I will take you to task for is that I am bitter. I can assure you I am not. If I hadn't left the church when I did, I wouldn't have met my wonderful partner and I wouldn't have the beautiful family that I now have.

I take all the good that the church gave me, and as a youth when peers are important, it was wonderful to have friends who believed as I did, and wanted to keep the standards that I did.

No regrets.

[Abulafia]

I spent many years defending my beliefs as an active member. 

That was your first mistake. You should have spent many years defending your right to believe. Anything. It is a necessary skill in a world where there are sooooo many people who think they should be able to evaluate your beliefs and tell you how worthy you are.

Juliann, I am sorry, but you are being downright picky!!

[Abulafia]

Juliann, I am not talking about what we all do as parents everyday in terms of attempting to socialise our children, and encourage polite, loving, caring behaviour.

That is but a small part of how our children are brainwashed...and actually the last that I would think of.

I am talking of matters of conscience, in terms of answers to the basic questions that most of us (if we have our primary needs met) ask.

[Nephi]

Nephi.  Look at my initial post. I defined my terms, or tried to very carefully.

I am sorry. I am not trying to attack you. I respect you, Abulafia, but you do seem to be somewhat "against" the church, even though this might be your person belief that you are defending. Earlier on in this thread, I felt as though it were an attack of the church to declare that it controls information, uses social pressure, and uses reward/punishment ideas. When I pointed out that these are characteristics of all social groups, you kinda conseeded the issue (I guess), but....

Nephi I know why I have come to this board, and I think I have explained it in other threads as best I can.  Why do you think I have come to this board?

I am sorry, I have not researched this. If you are truely happy where you are, and you truely believe that if one is comfortable in the church, then why come here and do as you do? I am assuming, now, that its either one of two things:

1) To have others justify your beliefs

-OR-

2) To cause others to think

If its the first reason, then I am sorry you need such a thing. If its the second reason, then I am also sorry that you think people in the church do not think for themselves. Within any social structure, there are those who do not think for themselves. Think of the science community. There are the thinkers (Einstein, Hawkings, etc), and there are the do'ers (those who do the lab work to prove or disprove a hypothesis). This holds true for the church as well.

Again, Abulafia, I hold you in high respect, because you don't tend to get emotional here. So, please, do not think I am attacking you... I just do not understand your motives, I guess...

[Abulafia]

Nephi.

[Abulafia]

Nephi. I would also say that this particular forum invites those who are not members, (I take that as inactives and ex-members also)

I watched these boards many months before I started posting, and was impressed with the likes of Ave Maria, and other non-lds posters. I actually have learned more about Catholicism from Ave Maria, than I had in the previous 20 years!

I didn't even know about Messianic Jews, and have very little understanding of the Kabbalah! I also respected and appreciated just how different active mormons beliefs are. Rollo Tomasi seems to be able to hold his own views, as does Paul Osborne. It's a good site!!!

[Nephi]

Okay...

My reason for coming here. This will be a little disjointed. (apologies in advance)

I still keep contact with my many LDS friends, but cannot discuss what is discussed here for fear of hurting them. They like their life, they love their families, my opinions would make them uncomfortable. I have no wish to do that.

In fact I did talk once or twice, particularly as it relates to the need for authority. I was never invited back to that particular house. I can't talk to my visiting teachers, or my mothers Vt's, when I talked to the missionaries who were giving lessons to my partner, they looked bemused about some of my questions.

I sat with my wonderful bishop, and told him my feelings about the church. He was good to me. He supported me in my decision, but had no answers. When I married, I asked him to conduct the marriage in an LDS chapel. When my father died. I asked him (but he couldn't do it mores the pity) to conduct my fathers funeral.

Just because I don't believe, and just because I couldn't find personal happiness in many of the doctrines and culture of the LDS church, doesn't mean that that isn't the case for other people.

I am truly interested in people who can, within the church, knowing as much as there is to know about it, stay active and find God and a path to true christlike behaviour within it. I couldn't do it. But I respect people that can. There are many people on this board whose opinions I deeply respect, even though I don't always agree with them. I also feel comfortable in the knowledge that the people that come here who are LDS and active, are not about to leave the church on anything that I say.

I don't know if that answers your question???

So, to sum it all up: You come here to discuss the things that you cannot discuss with your LDS family/friends and contacts, such at HT's, and the Bishop of the ward you were from?

[Abulafia]

Okay...

My reason for coming here.

[Dale]

Abulafia I know of a lady who claims she spent 40 years defending the beliefs of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Of course in recent years we chose to go to the smaller Community of Christ name. She goes is now Ex-RLDS now turned Baptist. She has a ministry to RLDS called LIfeline to RLDS Ministries.. Her book is entitled Reorganized LDs Church: Is it Christian?, A Biblical & Historical Perspective on the RLDS Church. But when I look at the trivia she bought into she must have given an awfully weak defense. At the end portion of her book she has a stack of ex-RLDS testimonies that are typical of Ex-Mormon testimonies I have seen.

I HAVE ONE OBJECTION DON'T TELL ME YOU LEFT MORMONISM FOR THE RIGHT REASONS IF YOU LEFT FOR THE WRONG REASONS.

[Nephi]

...and I am interested in how people could get beyond the things that I couldn't..

I was interested in Grant Palmer for instance.  Who seems to want to be active LDS whilst believing (if I interpret him correctly) that the BOM is inspired fiction.

I couldn't stay active believing that.  But he does, I think, because he sees the church as a vehicle to enable him to get closer to christ.

There is no way that I could be accepted into the Mormon Faith with my beliefs as they now stand.  I, in effect, excommunicated myself...(if that makes sense).

Look at me. I went from athiest, to agnostic, to (eventually) Mormonism. There is a rule of thumb I use for all religious texts.

Step one: Don't argue with yourself on whether or not what you are reading is non-fiction or fiction. If you cannot make it past this, you cannot learn anything from it.

Step two: Read the text and ask yourself, "is what I learned from this Truth?" That is the main point of any religious texts.

Before becoming Christian, I was hung up on step one. I could not accept what I was reading as truth. Once I realized its what I learned that I need to be puting to the truth test, then I finally progressed spiritually.

Lemme ask you this? Ever seen a movie, and learned something from it that you could apply to your life, even though the movie wasn't real (ie, it was fiction)? Its the same thing with BoM, or the Bible for that matter.

[Dale]

Nephi I enjoyed your comments. In regards to the idea the Book of Mormon is inspiring fiction for awhile the critics had convinced me it was uninspiring fiction. I came to think if it wasn't true I had no valid reason to have to believe in it. I ran into books like Book of Mormon Authorship Revisted, Edited by Noel Reynolds which give me reasons to think it might be history.

I am not a naive believer in Book of Mormon historicity. I have most anti-Mormon writers book's in my library. I have books by individuals who treat the Book of Mormon as inspiring fiction from Signature books. I have participated, or watched some deeper message board debates. I just feel that bias against something doesn't make it untrue. This is why I am not impressed when I see an essay attempting to refute belief in literal Book of Mormon historicity.

The claim the LDS, or Community of Christ are Mormon cults is name calling. Logic & reason of others hasn't convinced me I need to stop using the Book of Mormon as scripture, or believing in Book of Mormon historicity. Though a Signature books individual doesn't want me to stop using the book as scripture, but only in believing in it's literal historicity.

I was one time so hung up on critics criticism of the book I couldn't just sit down & enjoy the book as I could a movie. I was so upset I coudn't apply it, or the Bible to my life. I had obstacles placed in the way of my return to belief.

[Abulafia]

The claim the LDS, or Community of Christ are Mormon cults is name calling.

Check the definition I gave Dale. I was careful to define terms. Whether you regard it as name calling depends only on the 'value' you yourself apply to the term.

Actually, I was forever having to tell my in laws that mormons were not moonies.

whom I would say are a 'cult' in the more 'traditional' value laden sense of the word.

Again, even though I was careful to define terms. I apologise if I have offended you or anyone else here. It's been a difficult week. Forgive me.