The Church is a Cult

[Sput]

I think the pivotal time for me, came at university. My college lecturers knew I was mormon, and respected me for it, though they would always say, (I majored in History) just use the tools you have learned here to examine all aspects of your life and faith. Read around the issues, read a variety of opinions and perspectives, gather as much information as you can, and then make up your own mind...

This is what I did.

Actually, I remember telling one friend that Joseph Smith was a freemason. His response was that freemasonry was evil, and there was no way Joseph would ever have been one. (My BIL is a mason, and they are not evil!!!) But I did find among the youth that I grew up with, particularly those raised in the church, that there was strong 'persuasion' put on them by their parents to not read any literature critical of the church, since this was of the devil. (I am sure not all parents were like that, just most of the ones I knew).

Abulafia

hmm k lets put it this way....as a parent would you let your kid touch a hot stove before you discourage it? This is the way I see your point. I wouldnt want my kid to go out and accept every handout from the anti-mormons at temple square or at temple dedications. Not cause im worried of him learning of the contents but more of why would i set him up to question his testimony. I see it as my charge to make sure I help him grow spiritualy not lead him to temptation. Whether i believe the church is right or wrong doesnt matter what matters is if its so wrong isnt it still a great way to live.

[Abulafia]

I think the pivotal time for me, came at university.

[Meta]

Katherine:

We don't stick their heads in the toilet or tie them up if they resist.

We don't?

Oh. Um.... Oops.

I had this happen a few times, but then again my dad was crazy.

i) The information available to me (at the time - in the 70's - pre internet - outside Utah!!!) was controlled, and I was strongly discouraged from reading any non-mormon literature on the subject of the church. My mother was told not to read any books not written by a mormon, ridiculous, but that is another story.

Difficult, is it not, to protect religion when you don't believe facts are needed to gain salvation? So here we have the church asking for us to be faithful without direct proof that Jesus died on the cross for us all except for the fact that a few prophets wrote about it, and some even saw Him. Then you have a group of anti-mormon fans with FACTS that the church is untrue. When you take faith gained through the spirit, it is very difficult to stack it against physical truth. It is stupid to try to understand God's doctrine with fact. It's lopsided and unfair. I applaud the church for encouraging anyone to not seek out anti-mormon/anti-christian documents.

[Nephi]

Control of Information

Any organization controls the information given to you. Even the US government does this. We have the CIA, the FBI, and other organizations that hide or construe the information to fit the needs of the government.

All organizations are biased, and this is a form of control of information, whether dileberate or accidental.

Social Pressure and Conformity Issues

Any society has pressure and conformity. I used to be a hippie in college, in the idea that it was non-conforming, and no pressures, but this is not accurate. Any and all organizations I have been in practice some form of this, again, whether its dileberate or accidental. For instance, the moment I decided to stop smoking pot, my hippie friends stopped calling, and stopped wanting to hang out. It was still me, but they (accidentally) tried to make me conform using peer pressure (absence of friends)... This inevitably leads to

Fear/Reward

Fear/Reward is part of any relationship. Think of your parents. If they were good parents, they practiced this. Think of your job. Again, it practices this. Any relationship that is worth anything practices it. In a job, for instance, good strong work is rewarded with more pay and a promotion. Work bad, and you fear losing that job.

I don't know what you are trying to point to, but any relationship you find will practice all three things you have mentioned. I hope you do find what you are looking for, though. and God be with you on your quest.

EDITED FOR SPELLING

[Dale]

Abulafia most of your issues can be found in the Catholic, or Southern Baptist church. With anti-Mormon materials I find the same propeganda recited over & over again as if it has not been answered.

Information is very controlled. I see the baic ideas of Evangelicalism conservative protestants, Assembly of God, Southern Baptist as promoting the same essential doctrine like Trinity, Justification by faith alone, the Bible alone as God's final authority & reliable authority as being the same message the others give out. You might see some beliefs like Lordship salvation verses Easy-Believism debates but for the most part the message is very controlled.

The only place where I see discussion of issues that seek to broaden ones horizons is anti-Mormon discussion of Mormon topics. No evolution accept to refute it is taught in a Fundementalist church.

I see social pressue & conformity issues.

Fear & reward talk about becoming a Mormon & you will get a lot of talk of going to hell. What more ultimate frear than loosing ones salvation if you abandon your religious tradition? What a better reward than heaven?

[Abulafia]

Control of Information

Any organization controls the information given to you. Even the US government does this. We have the CIA, the FBI, and other organizations that hide or construe the information to fit the needs of the government.

All organizations are biased, and this is a form of control of information, whether dileberate or accidental.

Social Pressure and Conformity Issues

Any society has pressure and conformity. I used to be a hippie in college, in the idea that it was non-conforming, and no pressures, but this is not accurate. Any and all organizations I have been in practice some form of this, again, whether its dileberate or accidental. For instance, the moment I decided to stop smoking pot, my hippie friends stopped calling, and stopped wanting to hang out. It was still me, but they (accidentally) tried to make me conform using peer pressure (absence of friends)... This inevitably leads to

Fear/Reward

Fear/Reward is part of any relationship. Think of your parents. If they were good parents, they practiced this. Think of your job. Again, it practices this. Any relationship that is worth anything practices it. In a job, for instance, good strong work is rewarded with more pay and a promotion. Work bad, and you fear losing that job.

I don't know what you are trying to point to, but any relationship you find will practice all three things you have mentioned. I hope you do find what you are looking for, though. and God be with you on your quest.

EDITED FOR SPELLING

Thanks for your thoughtful response Nephi. It is good to see one's opinions bounced by differing perspectives.

[Abulafia]

Control of Information

Nephi said:Any organization controls the information given to you. Even the US government does this. We have the CIA, the FBI, and other organizations that hide or construe the information to fit the needs of the government.

All organizations are biased, and this is a form of control of information, whether dileberate or accidental.

You seem to be justifying the churches practice of controlling information, by saying that everyone does it. (though I am sure that many on here would argue that the church does not control information) I suppose one could argue that God controls information too, since clearly we have no memory of where we came from, and no clear view of what happens after death.

I would ask however to what extent is the control of information around the church ethical?

Social Pressure and Conformity Issues

Nephi said:Any society has pressure and conformity. I used to be a hippie in college, in the idea that it was non-conforming, and no pressures, but this is not accurate. Any and all organizations I have been in practice some form of this, again, whether its dileberate or accidental. For instance, the moment I decided to stop smoking pot, my hippie friends stopped calling, and stopped wanting to hang out. It was still me, but they (accidentally) tried to make me conform using peer pressure (absence of friends)...

I agree with you, but thank goodness that Jesus decided not to bow to social pressure and conform to the giant that was Judaism in his time, otherwise I doubt we would be having this conversation today!

Fear/Reward

Nephi said:Fear/Reward is part of any relationship. Think of your parents. If they were good parents, they practiced this. Think of your job. Again, it practices this. Any relationship that is worth anything practices it. In a job, for instance, good strong work is rewarded with more pay and a promotion. Work bad, and you fear losing that job.

My parents certainly NEVER used fear/reward on the basis of religious conscience.

They left it to me to decide. They supported me fully in my decision to become active in the LDS church, and they supported me fully in my decision to leave. They loved me enough to give me the agency to follow my own path without fear of reprisal or withdrawal of love and support. For this I am grateful.

[MorningStar]

Abulafia,

Why does your avatar look familiar to me?

[Abulafia]

Abulafia,

Why does your avatar look familiar to me?

Hi Morning Star, it came from a link to a research project that the BBC did in conjunction with Isreal, I believe, that endeavoured to recreate as authentically as possible the kind of facial features that Jesus possessed.

Abulafia.

[juliann]

Abulafia,

Why does your avatar look familiar to me?

It is a reconstruction of what Jesus would have likely looked like coming from a semitic Mediterraean heritage.

[juliann]

If I like something, I am being educated. If I don't like it and want to poison the well, I am being brainwashed. It isn't very complicated. We brainwash our kids everyday. If we didn't we would be hauled in for neglect or endangerment. This is an incredibly stupid accusation.

[Zakuska]

Abulafia,

Why does your avatar look familiar to me?

Hi Morning Star, it came from a link to a research project that the BBC did in conjunction with Isreal, I believe, that endeavoured to recreate as authentically as possible the kind of facial features that Jesus possessed.

Abulafia.

I thought that was the depiction of Paul that they did?

[MorningStar]

Abulafia,

Why does your avatar look familiar to me?

Hi Morning Star, it came from a link to a research project that the BBC did in conjunction with Isreal, I believe, that endeavoured to recreate as authentically as possible the kind of facial features that Jesus possessed.

Abulafia.

Thanks! I think a friend showed that to me months ago.

[Nephi]

You seem to be justifying the churches practice of controlling information, by saying that everyone does it. (though I am sure that many on here would argue that the church does not control information)  I suppose one could argue that God controls information too, since clearly we have no memory of where we came from, and no clear view of what happens after death.

I would ask however to what extent is the control of information around the church ethical?

I am not justifying control of information by saying "everyone else is doing it, so that makes it okay." What I am saying is that you ran from the pot to the oven, or in other words, if this is a reason to leave the Church, then one would have ran from control to different control, but none the less control. There is no escaping it.

Social Pressure and Conformity Issues

I agree with you, but thank goodness that Jesus decided not to bow to social pressure and conform to the giant that was Judaism in his time, otherwise I doubt we would be having this conversation today!

I agree, Jesus did not conform to social pressures, and we try our best to live life that way, but if you are like me, you have children, and if I were to stand up to my boss at work and say, "you are a mislead individual, and I will not conform to your ways," then my children suffer due to lack of a paycheck. So, I must conform. A lot of times, unless you are on a direct mission from God, you must conform to get what is needed in life.

Fear/Reward

My parents certainly NEVER used fear/reward on the basis of religious conscience.

They left it to me to decide.  They supported me fully in my decision to become active in the LDS church, and they supported me fully in my decision to leave.  They loved me enough to give me the agency to follow my own path without fear of reprisal or withdrawal of love and support.  For this I am grateful.

I was raised Unitarian, which would allow me to believe what I wanted to believe, and my beliefs were not held against me, however, approval of my parents always was (and to an extent still is) important to me. I cannot just say, "your opinion of me has no weight on my actions."

Now, I am not saying that I always did/do what my parent(s) wanted me to. Joining this church has upset my mother (my father is now past on), but this need of approval is a form of fear. Rewards come from my parents to when I would come home and tell them of some other idea I had about God, or the fact that my mind is expanding. This joining of the church, due to stereotypes my mother has, is a "step backwards" according to her, for she believes we have become closed minded individuals, which is not the case. Regardless, if one treasures the relationships they have with anyone, then your actions directly effect all relationships, and those effects are preceived as rewards or fear of the results of those actions. Subtle though they may be, they are still there.

[Abulafia]

If I like something, I am being educated. If I don't like it and want to poison the well, I am being brainwashed. It isn't very complicated. We brainwash our kids everyday. If we didn't we would be hauled in for neglect or endangerment. This is an incredibly stupid accusation.

Hi Juliann, okay, I tried to steer off the term 'brainwashing' since it seemed too value laden, and onto 'subtle psychological control'.

Juliann, I am not talking about what we all do as parents everyday in terms of attempting to socialise our children, and encourage polite, loving, caring behaviour.

I am talking of matters of conscience, in terms of answers to the basic questions that most of us (if we have our primary needs met) ask. Where did I come from?

Why am I here? What is the purpose of this life? What happens when I die?

It is these questions that my child has already asked. I tell him what I believe, I tell him what his father believes, but he must make up his own mind, based on his own study. If he chooses of his own free will to take up the LDS faith, I will be delighted and will encourage him all the way. If he chooses agnosticism (which he seems to be embracing at the moment) then I will also support him. If he chooses atheism, I will also support him, though I will probably encourage him to see that a belief and love of science needn't negate a belief in God! He was discussing the information paradox with regard to black holes today. Beyond me!

(He is only 7)

[Nephi]

If he chooses agnosticism (which he seems to be embracing at the moment) then I will also support him.  If he chooses atheism, I will also support him, though I will probably encourage him to see that a belief and love of science needn't negate a belief in God!

When I was a child, this approval of a parent was very very important to me, and loss of it was a fear of mine. I am sure many children have this fear. Some lose it because they do not have respect for thier fathers/mothers, but this is a per kid basis. This still falls under the idea of reward/fear driven society.

Society is defined as follows:

"a group of human beings, broadly described as being separate from other groups by mutual interests, beliefs, and common cultural bonds."

Thereby to be a member of a society, one must conform to the common cultural bonds. That, in and of itself, requires many of the qualities you were pointing out were issues you had with the church, such as control of information, social pressures and conformity issues, and reward/fear (or better defined as reward/punishment). Humans also require societies (no man is an island). So you are kinda stuck, or you float from one social group to the next, never really making strong deep connections.

I am not suggesting that this is your case. I am mearly suggesting that one must accept the rules of any social group if one wishes to keep longstanding relationships with that group.

[Abulafia]

If he chooses agnosticism (which he seems to be embracing at the moment) then I will also support him.

[Zakuska]

Head Doctor... Conforming...

This reminds me of my 1st grade teacher. She was hell bent on getting me to hold the pencil correctly.

At the parent teachers conference she told my mom that I was not like any of her other kids, I was a spoiled brat, I wouldn't amount to anything.

Im the only one of my mothers children who is a college Graduate. As well as the highest payed.

So go figure?!

[Abulafia]

never really making strong deep connections.

I am not suggesting that this is your case.

Oh no. You are very correct. I have tried a number of organised christian religions since leaving the LDS church. I find much to disagree with in all of them..

Fussy bod that I am...

What to do..... and I do miss the spiritual/social connection I had with my many LDS friends. Not a good enough reason to stay though.

I do love my family, my job(s), my friends, and I do make very strong connections with people outside of religion. I just can't find an organised religion that I feel comfortable in... that fits all my own personal beliefs.

[Abulafia]

Head Doctor... Conforming...

This reminds me of my 1st grade teacher. She was hell bent on getting me to hold the pencil correctly.

At the parent teachers conference she told my mom that I was not like any of her other kids, I was a spoiled brat, I wouldn't amount to anything.

Im the only one of my mothers children who is a college Graduate. As well as the highest payed.

So go figure?!

My son is an avid follower of Dav Pilkey (very anarchic), doesn't hold his pencil correctly, and I don't care whether they think he will never get anywhere in life, cause I know he will!!!!

Teacher's can do a lot of damage, as well as a lot of good. In my opinion alll children have bags of potential, and I personally love working with them. But the system and teachers are imperfect.

Educational theory can attain 'cult' status itself, and must not be questioned. I am afraid I am not a conformer on the educational stage either!!!! There is truly a lot of garbage out there paraded as good educational practice. (over here particularly in the education of 4-5 year olds - but its all a changing now thank goodness)

Abulafia

[Bertram]

Abulafia,

In referring to Education of 4-5 year olds......you said "over here"!

Where is "over here"?

[Zakuska]

In the 3rd Grade I was sited as Gifted and talented. And placed in an excelled program. I always scored off the charts on the sciences. But I was just average in all the others with a couple of below averages in the humanites. (iirc)

I recently took a brain test for my college courszes to figure out which side of the brain I was most proficient with so I could concentrate on those things that I was having difficulty with. I scored off the charts on the front left lobe (agian the sciences, and logic), but was average in the left rear and right front lobes and below average in the right rear lobe (again Humanities and interpersonal).

[UteFan]

I think the LDS church does use "brainwashing."

Especially in the MTC.

Robert Lifton identified eight themes or properties of reform environments that contribute to their totalistic quality:

1. Control of communication

2. Emotional and behavioral manipulation

3. Demands for absolute conformity to behavior prescriptions derived from the ideology

4. Obsessive demands for confession

5. Agreement that the ideology is faultless

6. Manipulation of language in which cliches substitute for analytic thought

7. Reinterpretation of human experience and emotion in terms of doctrine

8. Classification of those not sharing the ideology as inferior and not worthy of respect

I'm not psychologist and haven't read this book or studied about this but looking over this list I say Yes for every one of them, but especially in the 3 weeks I was in the MTC. I'd say this is to make us better missionaries / people but what do I know I'm brainwashed.

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

"Most speakers at the AAAS [American Association for the Advancement of Science] panel on brainwashing agreed that the concept of brainwashing has dubious merit. [it is] 'replete with science fiction.' Truly involuntary psychological control without resort to physical coercion is almost unknown, or cannot be distinguished from voluntary behavior."

[Zakuska]

Or do we brainwash ourselves?

I had the hardest time getting rid of that "Arms length" rule. Just ask my wife. It took almost 8 months beofre I even felt comfortable sitting next to a girl.

Seems to me Protestants and Catholics do the same.

How many times do you kneel, standup sit down and repeat things?

"We beleive in one God..."