Calm

Yes, this is how I see it. It might be one way to ensure options for agency. That would be the only justification I can think of for a setup like that. Though I should be clear, I am not the least committed to the idea of plan B’s. I wondered if it only occurred to Dan because of the coincidence of two Joseph Sr. and Jrs in the same area or if he already had the idea and he just made the possible connection later. Added: Dan never presents it as far as I am aware as anything but an interesting idea. When I heard him say it (feels like eons ago), there was no sense of ‘I have been inspired’ or anything more than ‘fun idea here’ that I remember. Agency isn’t about being able to make any choice whatsoever for me, it’s about being able to make choices that are true to oneself. And I don’t see any way to get away from determinism in the sense that behaviour is predetermined by the kind of people we are, but it’s moral agency in my view if our behaviour is ultimately determined by our uncreated, ever existing self rather than others’ influences, even if our only true choice is to choose God. I don’t see the multiple Josephs as that much of a coincidence given how common the name of Joseph was back then as well as the habit of using Sr and Jr. Plan B is, imo, a fun idea to toss around, but certainly I wouldn’t suggest anyone should form their ideas about God around it.

CFR please, neither Chat nor Google can find anything like this.

Until one works more or less. Isn’t that life in the mortal world? I speculate that God trained and prepared those he foreordained so they would be capable of fulfilling his plan if they chose to do so while still leaving the choice up to them. I don’t see mortality as creating a completely different person even if there are heavy environmental and biological influences that get in the way of the eternal nature of our spirit manifesting fully, if much at all here. So those he chose would be the most probable to be the type of people who desire what God desires even with a lot of noise overwhelming much of any spiritual communication going on as well as being capable of acting on those desires and so would choose to act on their foreordination even if they happen to lack the awareness to follow his instructions precisely. So some stuff gets messed up, but not enough to totally derail the process. Course corrections needed of course and made by God through inspiration/revelation (timing may not be immediate). Tangent: I would not be the least surprised if the “veil” that is placed on us is simply the limits of our human body. God can step in and for a short time turn up the volume/brightness during visions, etc so to speak so we can receive more from the spirit side of our existence or he is simply skilled enough to be able to precisely target the receptors that mediate between the biological and the spiritual aspects of our being where typically spiritual sensations are more scatter shot, point to point or direct communication vs broadcast or diffuse communication. I speculate we can also train ourselves to distinguish spirit stimuli from mundane stimuli that typical drowns out the other, just as a musician can pick out details of music much better than someone not trained. Not sure how the Holy Ghost fits in to this speculation, perhaps being a spirit, when his presence overlaps ours, it increases receptivity.

Is there any state that isn’t mentioned in the files? Not surprising Park City is mentioned.

Who knows? Maybe Joseph was Plan B or Plan W even, humans being what we are.

How long have you been posting on the board on this? Sometimes it feels like you should know this stuff better than the typical member, but you keep asking the same questions over and over again. Once souls have repented, if the ordinances of baptism and confirmation have been done they may leave spirit prison, whatever that means, whether that’s a location or a state of being. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world-study-guide?lang=eng For those who do not accept the gospel and Christ’s atonement, they get to leave after judgment and resurrection.

Not really. There is a nuance that is important. Predestination is usually interpreted as something that will occur no matter what while foreordination is more something is appointed to occur, but people’s choice is still involved. Dan Peterson pointed out an interesting fact several years ago talking about a possible ‘plan B’ if Joseph Smith had not lived up to his foreordination. Joseph Knight, Jr was in the same area living with his family headed by Joseph Knight, Sr….a family that were stalwarts in the faith. Looks like he’s mentioned that more than once. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/revelations-in-context/the-knight-and-whitmer-families?lang=eng

Not really. There is a nuance that is important. Predestination is usually interpreted as something that will occur no matter what while foreordination is more something is appointed to occur, but people’s choice is still involved. Dan Peterson pointed out an interesting fact several years ago talking about a possible ‘plan B’ if Joseph Smith had not lived up to his foreordination. Joseph Knight, Jr was in the same area living with his family headed by Joseph Knight, Sr….a family that were stalwarts in the faith. Looks like he’s mentioned that more than once. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/revelations-in-context/the-knight-and-whitmer-families?lang=eng

https://apnews.com/article/ice-detainee-deaths-suicide-camp-east-montana-victor-manuel-diaz-54b6ad1a5715567ccc351739bbb25e57 https://people.com/deaths-ice-custody-last-year-as-fatal-shootings-spur-outrage-11890261 https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/jan/28/deaths-ice-2026-? Perhaps People is not the highest quality, but it gives names you can research. I use Reddit usually as a first step, but this looks useful: https://www.reddit.com/r/ICE_Watch/comments/1qb6914/information_about_every_death_in_ice_detention/ Quote: “I'm sharing this because DHS is failing to update the Detainee Death Reporting page. They have produce ZERO reports for Fiscal Year 2026 (Oct 1, 2025 - Sept 30, 2026) despite being legally required to publish reports within 90 days. DHS has missed multiple deadlines. Additionally, Kristie Noem sent a memo requiring congressional visits give at least seven days notice (I don't think this is legal). For me, the effort is clear, DHS is working to eliminate oversight of immigration detention centers - setting a dangerous trajectory for the nation.” If this is true, it is very concerning. Why would they need a week’s notice if there wasn’t a need for a coverup? It appears to be an ongoing problem (this report covers 2017-2021) that likely is significantly worse with the ramping up of the efforts this last year. https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/95-percent-of-deaths-in-ice-detention-could-likely-have-been-prevented-with-adequate-medical-care-report

CFR please.

Infidelity is a misdemeanor, I believe, in a small number of states, probably rarely if ever enforced. If it’s not going to be enforced, why would one report it? Tell the partner; in most cases, imo. Tell the cops? Why? Will they even take a report? (Just curious about why you used that as an example) Just checked, it is still on the books as a felony in Wisconsin and Michigan. Got to wonder why no one has challenged it yet (just called it out as if I understand correctly someone would have to be charged first to take it to court). https://verdict.justia.com/2024/12/05/the-end-of-the-affair-adultery-in-modern-law

I am out of it today and so am going to let Chat do the summarizing below. Iirc, this first part matches what I have seen in discussions on fasting in the context of health. Other hormones/chemicals can improve or lower mood depending on individual biological differences. For example. I tend to feel energized and upbeat the first bit of fasting, but headaches hit after that. If I need to get stuff done just eating fruit for half of the day is the best way to do it because as soon as I eat something more complex, my mood and energy level typically drops.

For me I started because I thought it’s requested to do so in the style guide, but just checked and it isn’t . Can’t understand why I thought it was (maybe seeing it capitalized here). It has always felt odd if I think about it, so I may stop, but it’s a habit now for me as well,

Can always try Japanese walking: https://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/japanese-walking

Knowing manol from his posting here, my guess is he takes helping others seriously and my concerns don’t apply to the way he approaches “doing what’s right”. He has never appeared to me to operate much on autopilot, but examines and evaluates his life in depth and over time. I wasn’t critiquing him by responding, but explaining the nuances and motivations of my own position and I should have been more clear about that. This topic is just one that drives me to be precise on what I think because of difficulties in the past and a few people I have met in the past that were very well intentioned, but kind of disasters to the people around them….not that they are reading the board, but all of you become stand-ins on occasion when I would love to have another chance to try and communicate with someone to see if maybe this time it would make sense to them.

Thanks for this info, my daughter has a very sensitive gut and needs more fibre…as soon as we clear it with her gastro (she is hopefully no longer needing a low residue diet due to ulcers as she has stopped taking ibuprofen except on rare occasions about 9 weeks ago).

I think that depends on the person. I feel I can commit deeper and make a greater sacrifice when I feel confident it will truly help and not just not hurt. Seen too many people do what they think the person needs instead of asking or exploring what the need actually is from the other’s POV. My dad and grandparents were that way, sacrificed heavily for others, in my case buying me new high quality dressy clothes (I can live with a very limited and casual, mostly inexpensive wardrobe, so it was nice but not necessary and a lot just got worn a few times out of a sense of obligation, but they wanted me to look well dressed because being well dressed gave them confidence, etc, helped them feel good about themselves and they assumed I was the same way) or pay off my husband’s student loan debt (with the condition we put the money we now had free towards me going back to school, which was the eventual plan once I felt better that never happened). What I really wanted and needed (help with exploring possible health solutions or buying books on religious themes) was not offered by them (Mom came through later quite a bit though when she paid for things that were successful for her) and I felt too awkward to ask because it wasn’t a certain thing and so my quality of life did not improve even if having no debt removed some stress. Also I knew someone who used the “do what is right, let the consequence follow” method as an excuse not to take the time to get to know the real needs of a person before providing them with charity. They were dismissive of the idea that you could harm someone with the wrong form of charity (example: money intended for food is much easier to give than taking someone out to eat to ensure the money isn’t spent on drugs or drink). To me not finding out what is prudent first is doing charity to help yourself feel good more than to help others, so I have a much harder time feeling committed unless I have taken some time to educate myself, ask questions.

But it needs, imo, to be a more global “do what is right” because too often if support isn’t present, the results of the right action can be wrong. For example, in this case being here illegally is technically wrong and there the right thing to do to help and love others would be to report them. But this is wrong imo in this day and place unless criminal behaviour is involved because the undocumented don’t have an effective way to do better when reported. Reporting is right if you are helping the person find a better way of life and/or preventing significant harm to others. I have seen some think that motto allows them to not spend time examining what the consequences will be, but in my view you can’t determine what’s right or wrong until you understand likely consequences and take them into account.

This is truth in my experience

Bribery…

It would depend on how humanely people were treated after being reported, I hope. If I could trust they would be safe; held in humane, decent quarters and provided with necessities and comfort and were allowed to immediately communicate with family and employers or anyone else they needed to; then provided with effective ways to either safely return to their original country or smoothly and relatively quickly gain legal permission to work in the country as well as families not be split up if there are minors or others unable to support themselves that were legal, I would probably consider it thinking they would be better off being legal. As far as reporting people who wouldn’t inform, how would I know this unless I knew enough to inform myself? I can’t read minds and guessing shouldn’t be used here, imo. I find reporting illegal immigrants immoral at this time because of the treatment that has been extensively reported and documented as well as the broken imo system of trying to get legal status. It is so screwed up I have a hard time faulting those who see it as impossible to work with. (I based this on reports of people I know who have worked with illegals and refugees as well as people trying to legally immigrate from the beginning.). That mess should have been cleaned up first before the deportation of masses started as it is just overwhelming and already overwhelmed system, imo, becoming dangerous at this point for too many to justify it.

I did find this. https://lds365.com/2025/01/31/church-reaffirms-immigration-principles-and-encourages-local-leaders-to-comply-with-federal-laws/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

The dose makes the poison…;) Lima beans have cyanide in them, nutmeg which is my favorite spice can cause delirium in high doses. If having something not that healthy helps you eat healthier foods (say creamy salad dressing on spring mix, carrot, and cucumber salad with chickpeas or butter on a potato with mushrooms and onion), that is a definite step in the right direction. At first think of adding healthy foods rather than limiting unhealthy as you won’t feel deprived then and with greater variety, you won’t miss the unhealthy ones as much if you ever do eliminate them rather than lower their quantity significantly. Putting chocolate chips in a whole grain bread does not defeat the purpose of eating whole grain. Speaking of whole grain…. Fiber is essential, if lazy I recommend overnight oats. Such an easy breakfast. I have frozen blueberries or raspberries (thawed of course) on mind to get my first rainbow color of the day as well (see below). Start small and slowly increase as your body needs to get used to fiber if you haven’t been eating enough. Eat it earlier in the day too if you have slow digestion as digestion slows down even more when sleeping and if your stomach doesn’t empty enough, you can wake up nauseous (been there, done that). Salad greens don’t have as much fiber as I thought they did, so I have added chia seeds and psyllium husks to my diet. Have to be careful to space heavy fiber intake apart from meds (2-4 hours depending on type) though. I skip the Metamucil stuff as it has flavorings and dyes in them that can backfire on me these days, my gut is so over sensitive. I just use bulk husks or seeds to keep costs down. Just make sure to drink enough water or fiber will cause issues rather than smooth things out if you get my meaning. And an easy way to get a variety of foods is to think of Eating the Rainbow every day, something red, orange, yellow, green, blue, purple (add white or tan if ambitious). Do a search on “eating the rainbow” if you need ideas. Protein with every meal as well. It’s important for both hunger control and building muscle.

And “The Restored Gospel” does not apply to much of what the label “Mormonism” covers, so without a workable option for that even academics and journalists attempting to accommodate the Church’s self identification preferences couldn’t do it much of the time, imo. This below from the style guide just isn’t well thought out, imo. ”The term “Mormonism” is inaccurate and should not be used. When describing the combination of doctrine, culture and lifestyle unique to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the term “the restored gospel of Jesus Christ” is accurate and preferred.” Green jello and funeral potatoes have nothing to do with the Restored Gospel, but fit snuggly into the Mormonism category, for example (more Utah Mormonism, but they were still present at activities in California when I was growing up). There is a difference between religious cultural practices and secular cultural practices. Paying tithing is part of the Restored Gospel, as is charity, scripture study. Church basketball, dirty sodas, made up swear words…not really.

We were illegals in Russia on our first trip over. Being in Cyrillic, the visa was not easy to read and we just assumed it was correct for the six week stay. Unfortunately it was only for two weeks. We had to pay a fee (couple of hundred, thankfully we had the cash) to be allowed to leave the country…it wasn’t discovered till we were leaving. We got to wait two hours in the airport on very hard benches till someone with authority could give us permission (accept the bribe?). Given no one at customs admitted to speaking English and the flight attendant helping us had to abandon us after explaining what happened and telling us we had to wait, that was a very anxiety producing time. If we missed our flight, it would likely be two days for another, had no way to contact friends, etc. Our kids would be wondering what happened to us (they were 3 and 11 and staying with friends). Just a random memory that popped into my head when you mentioned it was easy to fall into.